Communism>Fascism

[Comrade_Josh]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy

[scarletghoul]

both of these figures are complete bullshit man
anyway its a stupid way to judge an ideology

[mel]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy

Over 250,000 people die EVERY DAY due to capitalism.:crying:

[Comrade_Josh]

both of these figures are complete bullshit man
anyway its a stupid way to judge an ideology
im not judgeing but people look at the twelve million and say "oh what an atrocity" but they ignore the supposed 100 million plus i agree that the numbers are bs

[Comrade_Josh]

Over 250,000 people die EVERY DAY due to capitalism.:crying:
How?

[mel]

How?

Well usually they stop breathing, their heart stops beating, and their brain stops working. Sometimes they lose a lot of blood, but it's not a requirement.

[ZeroNowhere]

State capitalism has killed 100 million? While that's probably exaggerated (and I have no idea how you could even approximate it), I do not see what relevance this has to communism.

[rosie]

The question you should be asking is why people base their decisions of an ideology or philosophy on the death toll of wars that were waged. War kills people, regardless. It kills a LOT of people. The U.S. is involved in war all over the world, and we hardly hear a peep about it on the media. If you are basing your (and I say you as in everyone, nothing personal) opinion on death toll, you should be asking yourself why these people died. Who were they fighting for and against, were they fighting at all? All in all, a philosophy such as fascism is not in anyones best interest (my own personal opinion, of course) and following or supporting one such philosophy could and has cause great harm for the interests of the greater good. You should read up on history of fascism and marxism and make your decision based on that. Good luck, Comrade!

[Comrade_Josh]

Well usually they stop breathing, their heart stops beating, and their brain stops working. Sometimes they lose a lot of blood, but it's not a requirement.
you misunderstood me how does capitalism kill 250,000 each day

[Comrade_Josh]

The question you should be asking is why people base their decisions of an ideology or philosophy on the death toll of wars that were waged. War kills people, regardless. It kills a LOT of people. The U.S. is involved in war all over the world, and we hardly hear a peep about it on the media. If you are basing your (and I say you as in everyone, nothing personal) opinion on death toll, you should be asking yourself why these people died. Who were they fighting for and against, were they fighting at all? All in all, a philosophy such as fascism is not in anyones best interest (my own personal opinion, of course) and following or supporting one such philosophy could and has cause great harm for the interests of the greater good. You should read up on history of fascism and marxism and make your decision based on that. Good luck, Comrade!
as to how the people died i read it was due to starvation and gunshots when stalin would cut off food to them and it was gas when national socialism, not fascism, killed the 12 million

[Il Medico]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million
Que? Adolf Hitler alone was responsible for more than 77 million deaths.


But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy
1. Those numbers are complete bullshit.
2. The "communist" regimes of the past were state capitalist.
3. Why aren't you banned yet?

[ZeroNowhere]

Banned? Shouldn't it be a restriction unless he happens to be a fascist, which he hasn't said explicitly, at least as far as I know?

[Comrade_Josh]

i am curious and like i said i am undecided and trying to sort things out from what my history books teach

[Comrade_Josh]

Que? Adolf Hitler alone was responsible for more than 77 million deaths.


where did you get those numbers from

[mel]

you misunderstood me how does capitalism kill 250,000 each day

My bad, it's about 150,000.

[rosie]

as to how the people died i read it was due to starvation and gunshots when stalin would cut off food to them and it was gas when national socialism, not fascism, killed the 12 million
Was Stalin not the fascist ruler during that time? I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say that if a country has a fascist dictator who cuts of the necessary means of life from his or her people then the cause of death would be due to fascism, and not socialism. Stalin could call himself whatever he wanted, but based on theory and definition, he was a fascist, not a socialist. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[rednordman]

lets face it people....we all pure "EVIL"!!!!!!:laugh:...and yes, that includes all anarchists, trots, left communists and (well according to the modern 'pretentious' politics) proper social democrates also. Welcome to the leftless world...

[Comrade_Josh]

Was Stalin not the fascist ruler during that time? I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say that if a country has a fascist dictator who cuts of the necessary means of life from his or her people then the cause of death would be due to fascism, and not socialism. Stalin could call himself whatever he wanted, but based on theory and definition, he was a fascist, not a socialist. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
no he was socialist in his theories from what i have read

[rosie]

i am curious and like i said i am undecided and trying to sort things out from what my history books teach
You should never trust what the public schools have to offer (I'm jumping to conclusions here, I know...my bad). School doesn't mean education. It's mean indoctrination. Read Howard Zinn. He's not only highly informative, but also quite exciting. I read "on War" in 6hrs. It took me a couple of days to read "On History", but that was because of my work schedule.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Que? Adolf Hitler alone was responsible for more than 77 million deaths.

1. Those numbers are complete bullshit.
2. The "communist" regimes of the past were state capitalist.
3. Why aren't you banned yet?

Why ban or restrict the guy? He's just asking questions. This is what the learning forum is intended for afterall.

[Comrade_Josh]

Why ban or restrict the guy? He's just asking questions. This is what the learning forum is intended for afterall.
thank you comrade

[Misanthrope]

The Soviet Union was not communist.

[Comrade_Josh]

it was socialist

[scarletghoul]

can you people stop saying "ussr wasnt communist because communism is classless stateless society communism has never occured" and stuff. USSR was communist, ideologically, so its still worth talking about when discussing communism. when you say that communism has never occured and is just a classless stateless society, it makes the whole thing sound utopian and unrealistic

[Arlekino]

If communism killed millions and millions so where are bodies are buried. Well I don’t believing even Stalin killed such amount of people.
Long life to Communism!

[rosie]

Actions do speak louder than words though, my friend. His actions were very much in line with fascist theory. And I'm not saying that everything in fascist theory is "bad" (I apologize for my morality based language...for lack of a better word I am using it), there are some topics I am still having a difficult time deciding for myself whether I agree or disagree. All in all, you don't really need to decide right now if you should call yourself a communist, fascist, nazi, capitalist, marxist, lenninist, luxemburgist, or republican. I am assuming (there i go with the assumptions again!) that you are still young (not that age really has anything to do with it). The only decision you need to make is where your loyalty lies. You are seemingly anti-capitalist, so you have that part out of the way. The rest is going to take you a very long time to actually decide. For example, I can call myself a feminist, but I have yet to read and really study the philosophy. I am a lifestyle communist as well, and I have yet to read more liturature and theory ( i have read a little, and all my friends are well read in the subject, so that's cool) before I coun really debate and prove myself in a debate. I do know that I would be willing to fight for a communist revolution. I hope this is helping you, if not, let me know and I'll stop jabbering mindless bullshit at you (and everyone else who has to read it...haha!).

[ArrowLance]

Was Stalin not the fascist ruler during that time? I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say that if a country has a fascist dictator who cuts of the necessary means of life from his or her people then the cause of death would be due to fascism, and not socialism. Stalin could call himself whatever he wanted, but based on theory and definition, he was a fascist, not a socialist. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, you're wrong. Stalin was doing a pretty good job. Trying to democratize the country, collectivizing, eliminating the kulaks, removing counter-revolutionary and other reactionary forces. While some unfortunate deaths may be linked to Stalin I'm sure, he was doing a rather good job at leading the USSR to communism.

Do you even know what the definition of fascism is? I tend to run with 'strong vs weak' and 'corporativism.'

[Misanthrope]

it was socialist

It was capitalist.


can you people stop saying "ussr wasnt communist because communism is classless stateless society communism has never occured" and stuff. USSR was communist, ideologically, so its still worth talking about when discussing communism. when you say that communism has never occured and is just a classless stateless society, it makes the whole thing sound utopian and unrealistic

Yeah, ideologically but if we were to judge societies by how they think and not how they act then capitalism would be a utopia of individualism and liberty.. :rolleyes:

[LOLseph Stalin]

Somehow I just knew this would turn into a Stalin debate...:rolleyes:
Here's a suggestion, guys. How about we get back to the topic on hand?

[ArrowLance]

Actions do speak louder than words though, my friend. His actions were very much in line with fascist theory.

What actions of his do you consider to be 'in line with fascist theory.'

[mel]

If communism killed millions and millions so where are bodies are buried. Well I don’t believing even Stalin killed such amount of people.
Long life to Communism!

Well, the bodies are buried in the graves they have discovered over the years, from which they've identified, at the very least, hundreds of thousands of separate remains. Was Stalin directly responsible? That can be debated, but most certainly it happened under his watch.

[ArrowLance]

Somehow I just knew this would turn into a Stalin debate...:rolleyes:
Here's a suggestion, guys. How about we get back to the topic on hand?

Well the topic was already just begging for Stalin to come into it. I'm not really sure what the topic is about if not 'deaths caused by such and such,' Stalin just happens to be a big figure to throw all the rocks at.

[rosie]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy
I would like to add, soo sorry for my ridiculousness...that people do NOT over look the fact that communism has killed a ton of people. Turn on Fox News at any random time. I guarantee you will be bombarded with buzz words and quick phrases like "cradle to grave socialism" . I actually went to one of those tea party rallies on July 4th...I asked a bunch of questions to a bunch of people, one of the questions being "define socialism"...the most frequent response..."the difference between socialism and communism is a communist IS a socialist, with a gun". I mean, not the brightest crowd of folks, but still they do recognize the massive death toll war has brought about.

[scarletghoul]

Yeah, ideologically but if we were to judge societies by how they think and not how they act then capitalism would be a utopia of individualism and liberty.. :rolleyes:
you miss my point. Capitalism was never supposed to move towards a utopia of liberty. The soviet union was actively attempting to move towards a communist society, so it was technically communist. It doesnt have to be a classless stateless society to be ideologically communist. Just like I am not a classless stateless society, but I am still a communist because I advocate moving towards that classless statelessness

[Comrade_Josh]

Actions do speak louder than words though, my friend. His actions were very much in line with fascist theory. And I'm not saying that everything in fascist theory is "bad" (I apologize for my morality based language...for lack of a better word I am using it), there are some topics I am still having a difficult time deciding for myself whether I agree or disagree. All in all, you don't really need to decide right now if you should call yourself a communist, fascist, nazi, capitalist, marxist, lenninist, luxemburgist, or republican. I am assuming (there i go with the assumptions again!) that you are still young (not that age really has anything to do with it). The only decision you need to make is where your loyalty lies. You are seemingly anti-capitalist, so you have that part out of the way. The rest is going to take you a very long time to actually decide. For example, I can call myself a feminist, but I have yet to read and really study the philosophy. I am a lifestyle communist as well, and I have yet to read more liturature and theory ( i have read a little, and all my friends are well read in the subject, so that's cool) before I coun really debate and prove myself in a debate. I do know that I would be willing to fight for a communist revolution. I hope this is helping you, if not, let me know and I'll stop jabbering mindless bullshit at you (and everyone else who has to read it...haha!).

it is fine comrade i do the same thing and i admire your compassion anyway yes i am young (16) yes i do not like capitalism, but one thing throws me off of communism is the abolishment of nationalism i am a nationalist and love my country and my goal out of highschool is marine corps so that i may fight and hopefully have the priviledge to die for my country

[Il Medico]

Was Stalin not the fascist ruler during that time? I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say that if a country has a fascist dictator who cuts of the necessary means of life from his or her people then the cause of death would be due to fascism, and not socialism. Stalin could call himself whatever he wanted, but based on theory and definition, he was a fascist, not a socialist. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
No. Stalin was definitely not a nice guy,nor was he really a communist (in the Marxist sense. He was according to Marxist-Leninism) but he was not a fascist. Fascism is extreme nationalism, the soviet union was not nationalist. I had this misconception as well when I first joined, so no worries!
Here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism

[rosie]

What actions of his do you consider to be 'in line with fascist theory.'
The mass killings of communists, the over throwing of a communist leader, the cutting off of the food and water supply to his own people...simple things like that (sarcasm there).

[Il Medico]

The mass killings of communists, the over throwing of a communist leader, the cutting off of the food and water supply to his own people...simple things like that (sarcasm there).
Again, reactionary and totalitarian, but not fascist. This is a usual tenet of State Capitalism, which is what the USSR was. State-Capitalism is left winged deviation from capitalism, whilst Fascism is a right wing deviation.

[Misanthrope]

you miss my point. Capitalism was never supposed to move towards a utopia of liberty. The soviet union was actively attempting to move towards a communist society, so it was technically communist. It doesnt have to be a classless stateless society to be ideologically communist. Just like I am not a classless stateless society, but I am still a communist because I advocate moving towards that classless statelessness

So were the Nazis socialist?

[Il Medico]

Also, to the OP... I misread your other thread, and I suppose this one as well. It seemed to me that you were advocating fascism. However, if your just asking questions, feel free.

[rosie]

There is no real honor in being a martyr. Not to attack you personally, but fighting in ANY of america's armed forces is only perpetuating the capitalist/imperialist slaughters that are never ending. This country is full of people who have never seen a battle (not that anyone should) but are so full of pride and so quick to kill for the land. We are not a country of freedom. We are not a country of tolerance. We do not have the freedom to speak, practice religion, have a job to support a family, or even live the lifestyle we want or need. This country and its armies fight to keep the illusion of freedom alive so as to feed the massive bank accounts of the few in power. I learned that from the Navy. If you want to do something truely great for this country, don't join the armed forces. Stay at home and continue learning, then teach others what you have learned. Organize within your community to create solidarity and to keep the cops away from your children. Learn, man. And teach others alike. Don't join the armed forces to kill or be killed for capitalism. It's not worth it. The people of this country are great, it's true. But no greater than any other countries people. We are all one race. Capitalism kills hundreds of thousands of people and counting...all over the world. Don't be one of the masters' slaves. Fight back. Join the Peace Corps or the Peace Team (they get killed all the time). If you want to die, die for something worth dying for.

[Comrade_Josh]

thats not fascist that more pyschotic dictator like

[Comrade_Josh]

There is no real honor in being a martyr. Not to attack you personally, but fighting in ANY of america's armed forces is only perpetuating the capitalist/imperialist slaughters that are never ending. This country is full of people who have never seen a battle (not that anyone should) but are so full of pride and so quick to kill for the land. We are not a country of freedom. We are not a country of tolerance. We do not have the freedom to speak, practice religion, have a job to support a family, or even live the lifestyle we want or need. This country and its armies fight to keep the illusion of freedom alive so as to feed the massive bank accounts of the few in power. I learned that from the Navy. If you want to do something truely great for this country, don't join the armed forces. Stay at home and continue learning, then teach others what you have learned. Organize within your community to create solidarity and to keep the cops away from your children. Learn, man. And teach others alike. Don't join the armed forces to kill or be killed for capitalism. It's not worth it. The people of this country are great, it's true. But no greater than any other countries people. We are all one race. Capitalism kills hundreds of thousands of people and counting...all over the world. Don't be one of the masters' slaves. Fight back. Join the Peace Corps or the Peace Team (they get killed all the time). If you want to die, die for something worth dying for.
i wont be dying for capitalism i would be dying for the land that birthed me and raised me

i hate my government as much as the next guy

[Il Medico]

it is fine comrade i do the same thing and i admire your compassion anyway yes i am young (16) yes i do not like capitalism, but one thing throws me off of communism is the abolishment of nationalism i am a nationalist and love my country and my goal out of highschool is marine corps so that i may fight and hopefully have the priviledge to die for my country
You'll die for capitalist interest mate. States aka 'Nations', are just social constructs conceived by the bourgeois as the method to insure their control. (like nobles and kings used Divine right to rule) If you go to war for 'Your country' then you will die killing innocent people in the name of profit. Btw, this I have not misread, and I feel I should inform you that you will be restricted as soon as an admin comes across this. Nationalist are restricted to OI. However, you can still post there, and if you change your views, then your restriction will possibly be lifted.

[Comrade_Josh]

i do not see the point in restricting someone for them loving there country isnt that as bad as censoring freespeech which you are working so hard to promote and as for killing innocent people no one is innocent on battlefields as far as anyone knows the guy in the crosshairs killed your best friend

[rosie]

Ok, you're wrong. Stalin was doing a pretty good job. Trying to democratize the country, collectivizing, eliminating the kulaks, removing counter-revolutionary and other reactionary forces. While some unfortunate deaths may be linked to Stalin I'm sure, he was doing a rather good job at leading the USSR to communism.

Do you even know what the definition of fascism is? I tend to run with 'strong vs weak' and 'corporativism.'Here's a good outline of a definition.... (wikipedia article on said topic)

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English), comprises a radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_radicalism) and authoritarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) political ideology[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-3) and a corporatist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) economic ideology. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-4)
Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism), and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-5) Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-6) Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-7) Fascism opposes class conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict), blames capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) liberal democracies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy) for its creation and communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) for exploiting the concept.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-books.google.com-8) Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism),[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-9) rationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism), liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), conservatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism) and communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism). [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-10) In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way)" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism) of unrestrained capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire) and the severe control of state communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_communism).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-12) This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini)).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-14) No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-15)
Following the defeat of the Axis powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers) in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) and the publicity surrounding the atrocities committed during the period of fascist governments, the term fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_%28epithet%29) has been used as a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) word.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-16)

[bricolage]

i do not see the point in restricting someone for them loving there country and as for killing innocent people no one is innocent on battlefields as far as anyone knows the guy in the crosshairs killed your best friend

All soldiers are innocent in the sense that they didn't start the war, they didn't create the conditions for it, they didn't create the system that necessitates it so why should they be the ones to be punished? When one class declares war and another class are sent out to die for that war, it is not those dying on the battlefields who are guilty.

[Comrade_Josh]

no one is being punished nowdays it is a choice to go or not

[bricolage]

no one is being punished nowdays it is a choice to go or not

Is that why the vast majority of soldiers, especially in America, come from poor working class backgrounds where there is little chance for them to get a job other than through the military?

[rosie]

i do not see the point in restricting someone for them loving there country and as for killing innocent people no one is innocent on battlefields as far as anyone knows the guy in the crosshairs killed your best friend
Civilian causalities are nothing to speak lightly of. You have never seen battle, or anything close to it. I wouldn't get all gung-ho about bombing schools full of unarmed children, or breaking down an elderly couples door to watch fellow officers rape the old lady before ordering you to slit her throat. That is not honor. But that is war. It happens daily, and is brought on by imperialist capitalist states....just like america. In fact, our forces do it so often it is just part of many countries daily ritual. the countries we have invaded in the name of "spreading democracy' do not ever assume they will see thier children again when they go to school (if they are lucky enough to have access to schooling...most of our victims are not). You should really read more. Try reading opposing ideologies...you'll learn more about different veiwpoints...build tolerance, and read Howard Zinn "On War". I promise it'll be a great help to you. Also, listen to Micheal or Christian Parenti's speeches. They are facinating. You would probably enjoy Micheal Parenti more, he's more enthusiastic (I know I do).

[Sarah Palin]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy

I'm curious what the formula used for finding those numbers was. The fascist death toll is clearly not enough, while the communist death toll is obviously exaggerated. And as previously stated, capitalism kills thousands a day, so I think we know who the real bad guy is.

[rosie]

no one is being punished nowdays it is a choice to go or not
That is not true. How many times a year does the Marine Corps go to your school to set up an info booth? At my high school, they came at least once a month. I joined the Navy shortly after high school. Dishonorable discharge. Spent some time in a cage for it. I spoke out against the terrorism our nation is inflicting on women and children and workers of the world. You know what Dubai is?

[Comrade_Josh]

they still are not forced to join it is all by choice and as for them having no other options colleges look a lot a letter grades so if they apply them selves academically they can go forward or athletically

[rednordman]

So were the Nazis socialist?:rolleyes:Yes they where, they loved the communists to death...So much infact they accused everyone of being a communist and sending them to warped death-camps. Heck, one of hitlers properganda calls was that all jews were bolsheviks,....fucking hell, the worlds supposed to be getting smarter, not more stupid. Sorry about my language. and im not flaming you personally, im hearing this sort of stuff ALL THE TIME. From even the left, its total lunacy. Yes i know about the crimes of the Soviet Union too, and do not condone them.

[rosie]

Watch some Democracy Now. It's a daily news broadcast (well, weekdays only). They cover more about the current hundreds of wars the U.S. is in than any other alternative news I've seen (or listened to...a lot of the good stuff is audio only). Just go to democracynow.org and watch whatever...they have a great archive of information. you can even search for something in particular.

[Nwoye]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy
cool story bro

[Comrade_Josh]

That is not true. How many times a year does the Marine Corps go to your school to set up an info booth? At my high school, they came at least once a month. I joined the Navy shortly after high school. Dishonorable discharge. Spent some time in a cage for it. I spoke out against the terrorism our nation is inflicting on women and children and workers of the world. You know what Dubai is?
it is not just the corps that comes in they alternat once a month an no i am not familiar with dubai

[rosie]

Dubai is the capitalist center of the world. It is a man made island. Check out the wiki on it. That little island is what america fights for. Scary fucked up shit. The safety and well being of the human race is not fought for by america, the land and the people here is not fought for by america. Dubei. Dubei is fought for by america. Check it out.

[rosie]

they still are not forced to join it is all by choice and as for them having no other options colleges look a lot a letter grades so if they apply them selves academically they can go forward or athletically
You honestly need to turn off the fox news and read more alternative material. Poverty forces people into situation where they can't do shit (such as get good grades, because the kids have to work to support the family...happens all the time). Statistics show that a person is not likely to make as much as their parents made. Why is that? Because capitalism forces poverty and indoctrination onto the working class. Once you are poor, you stay poor. Lack of education has a lot to do with the perpetuation of poverty. I could go into soooo much right now, but I won't. Read more dude. And keep asking questions. The more you learn, and the more questions you ask, the less reactionary you will be and the less likely you are to join the capitalist army in the fight for imperialism. Educate to evolve.

[rosie]

cool story bro
Hahaha!!!! I can't stop laughing!!!!!! :laugh:

[ArrowLance]

The mass killings of communists, the over throwing of a communist leader, the cutting off of the food and water supply to his own people...simple things like that (sarcasm there).

OK, I don't think there were mass killings of communists, I don't see where he over threw a communist leader or where he cut off food and water to his own people. There were some shortages in the USSR, ones that were being fixed pretty well by collectivization I might add, but that isn't cutting off food and water supply. You might as well blame drought and floods on the ruling government too.

[ArrowLance]

Here's a good outline of a definition.... (wikipedia article on said topic)

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English), comprises a radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_radicalism) and authoritarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) political ideology[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-3) and a corporatist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) economic ideology. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-4)
Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism), and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-5) Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-6) Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-7) Fascism opposes class conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict), blames capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) liberal democracies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy) for its creation and communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) for exploiting the concept.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-books.google.com-8) Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism),[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-9) rationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism), liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), conservatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism) and communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism). [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-10) In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way)" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism) of unrestrained capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire) and the severe control of state communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_communism).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-12) This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini)).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-14) No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-15)
Following the defeat of the Axis powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers) in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) and the publicity surrounding the atrocities committed during the period of fascist governments, the term fascist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_%28epithet%29) has been used as a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) word.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism#cite_note-16)

Exactly, that doesn't describe Stalin's ideas very well.

[rosie]

could you describe his wonderful ideas to me then? Apparently dictionary definitions don't do a well enough job. While you're at it, could you describe for me his actions as opposed to his thoughts? I would very much like to know what you think.

[Comrade_Josh]

. Once you are poor, you stay poor.
not true look at rockafeller obama michael jackson anthony sullivan billy mays and countless others

[ArrowLance]

could you describe his wonderful ideas to me then? Apparently dictionary definitions don't do a well enough job.

As I see it Stalin was pro-democracy, believed in class struggle in a marxist sense and was against corporativism/fascism and the such.

[LeninBalls]

not true look at rockafeller obama michael jackson anthony sullivan billy mays and countless others

Also check out the billions of other people born into 3rd (and 1st) world poverty.

[Comrade_Josh]

OK, I don't think there were mass killings of communists, I don't see where he over threw a communist leader or where he cut off food and water to his own people. There were some shortages in the USSR, ones that were being fixed pretty well by collectivization I might add, but that isn't cutting off food and water supply. You might as well blame drought and floods on the ruling government too.

he cut of food to the ukraine and also ordered the murders of thousands of jews

[Comrade_Josh]

Also check out the billions of other people born into 3rd (and 1st) world poverty.
but they do nothing to make their situation any better they sit and wait for the christian charities and other charities

[rosie]

Rockefeller was an exception to the rule. All of these people do not compare to the mass numbers we are talking about. I've heard (and used) the same argument way too many times. The statistics you are trying to prove wrong are in fact a reality, like it or not. There are the few acceptions, the same rags to riches story told again and again, only to justify the existence of capitalism, but statistically speaking, the numbers just don't even come close. If everyone had a fair shot why is there so much poverty? So much crime? In THIS country alone, please.

[ArrowLance]

he cut of food to the ukraine and also ordered the murders of thousands of jews

I don't think that he did do that. Here's a (rather lacking) link on the subject: http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html

[rosie]

but they do nothing to make their situation any better they sit and wait for the christian charities and other charities
I have to say, Kiddo, you are neither a fascist, nor a communist. You sound just like every other cappie out there. People are starving cuz their lazy. Poor people deserve to be poor because their lazy. The army is cool now because we haven't technically re-enacted the draft. You don't seem to want to learn. Accusing a majority of the world's population of laziness is proposterous!

[Il Medico]

no one is being punished nowdays it is a choice to go or not
Yes, no one is being punished! All these people wanted it this way:
(Note none of these people are soldiers, nor did they sign up to go to war.)

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/iraq-dead-bodies.jpg
http://www.p10k.net/Images/terror_victim_iraq.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SBy08l_zavI/AAAAAAAADJc/caMW2QAv7zg/s320/cluster_bomb_victim.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_TXyAEpCjKRE/RrHhxc6fr0I/AAAAAAAAAI0/HUhPHhFxoYc/iraqi-civilian-victims.jpg
http://www.uaeprison.com/images/war_victims.jpg
http://blog.news-record.com/staff/jrblog/IRAQ%20WAR%20GAMES.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M5CaCD0e1eA/SCIH63yIWFI/AAAAAAAAAFk/7x5hVKQC4f0/s400/Halabja%2B3.jpg
http://www.beneathbuddhaseyes.com/journal/archives/BurnedIraqiman.JPG
http://piratenews.org/iraq-war-leg-blown-off-kid.jpg
Enjoy killing for your country.

[Comrade_Josh]

i will condone this as not being an attack towards me but the next will not be so

[Comrade_Josh]

and note that is not pictures of american deeds these are Taliban or Al Queda

[ArrowLance]

i will condone this as not being an attack towards me but the next will not be so

What?

[Il Medico]

i will condone this as not being an attack towards me but the next will not be so
WHAT??? Open your eyes man. This is what your beloved country does! And what every country does! Don't have love of country, have love of humanity. I am not attacking you mate, I am trying to help you.

[Comrade_Josh]

it is an attack on my beliefs comrade

[Il Medico]

and note that is not pictures of american deeds these are Taliban or Al Queda
These are all American deeds. And the Taliban is in Afghanistan.

[ArrowLance]

it is an attack on my beliefs comrade

Well nationalism is a belief worthy of being attacked. It is a racist, lazy and blind belief. Nationalism means supporting your nations race above all others, believing in your country almost regardless of what it does.

[Comrade_Josh]

so your telling me those two children holding russian made pistols are americans

[Il Medico]

it is an attack on my beliefs comrade
Beliefs can change, you just need to learn what is really going on and stop listening to the likes of Glenn Beck. You've been thought propaganda, we all have. I beg you to see past the bullshit the ruling class feeds you about freedom, and see what they really do. 'All Bourgeois democracies are free in the same way they were free in ancient Athens, Freedom for the slave holder.' Fight against the ruling class, not your brothers. Don't submit yourself to the puppet of capitalism know as nations states. Fight to destroy all nations, so that we may have peace and equality.

[#FF0000]

Countries aren't important to us, Josh. Like the saying goes "workers have no country". And it's true. We want the international working class to have power. Nationalism, of course, sort of gets in the way of that. Get it?

[#FF0000]

And, boyo, every country in the world has done awful things. The U.S. isn't special in this. You're talking about a country founded in slavery, racial hatred, exploitation, and genocide.

[Il Medico]

And, boyo, every country in the world has done awful things. The U.S. isn't special in this. You're talking about a country founded in slavery, racial hatred, exploitation, and genocide.
And still running on it.

[Comrade_Josh]

i have two questions for you Capt. how did you have such quick access to those pictures, are they saved on your hard drive? And two how come you hate military with a passion yet you have used a military rank as your name?

im afraid you have forced me to use statements that i did not come here to use i came here to learn

[Misanthrope]

and note that is not pictures of american deeds these are Taliban or Al Queda

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt9/KingNubie/banned-1.gif

[Comrade_Josh]

And, boyo, every country in the world has done awful things. The U.S. isn't special in this. You're talking about a country founded in slavery, racial hatred, exploitation, and genocide.
Genocide with who. slavery that is a stupid scapegoat every where used slavery hell we were doing it to each other before we were doing it to the blacks plus we were also sold as slaves to the africans

[ArrowLance]

im afraid you have forced me to use statements that i did not come here to use i came here to learn

And we are trying to teach you. Why is it you feel nationalism is ok, it is inherently racist.

[#FF0000]

i have two questions for you Capt. how did you have such quick access to those pictures, are they saved on your hard drive? And two how come you hate military with a passion yet you have used a military rank as your name?

Those aren't even arguments.

[khad]

Genocide with who. slavery that is a stupid scapegoat every where used slavery hell we were doing it to each other before we were doing it to the blacks plus we were also sold as slaves to the africans

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/2/128910741724170428.jpg

[mel]

i have two questions for you Capt. how did you have such quick access to those pictures, are they saved on your hard drive? And two how come you hate military with a passion yet you have used a military rank as your name?

im afraid you have forced me to use statements that i did not come here to use i came here to learn

It's not hard to find pictures, Josh. A simple google search for "American Atrocities" ought to turn up a great few. Usernames mean nothing, Captain is a military rank, but CJ dislikes the US military. And you call yourself Comrade but are a nationalist anti-communist.

[#FF0000]

Genocide with who.

Native Americans.


slavery that is a stupid scapegoat every where used slavery hell we were doing it to each other before we were doing it to the blacks plus we were also sold as slaves to the africans

Oh so I guess it's okay then. Wait. No it isn't.

[mel]

Genocide with who.

Try the native population, or have you forgotten that there are almost none of them left?


slavery that is a stupid scapegoat every where used slavery hell we were doing it to each other before we were doing it to the blacks plus we were also sold as slaves to the africans

That doesnt' make it right or any less true. The US built its economy on the backs of slaves, like many other nations whom we are equally against, and like the capitalists whose system we hope to overthrow.

[mosfeld]

Please don't feed the troll.

[scarletghoul]

Comrade Josh-
A Peoples History of the United States is a great book to read. It gives you a history from a differant point of view.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

[Comrade_Josh]

im not trolling i came to learn but had my beliefs attacked

[#FF0000]

im not trolling i came to learn but had my beliefs attacked

Well, yeah. That's what happens when you look into something that is very different from what you already believe -- your beliefs get challenged.

[ArrowLance]

im not trolling i came to learn but had my beliefs attacked

We are trying to teach you, but you are ignoring it on the defense. You aren't even willing to come up with some arguments for your beliefs it seems. Part of learning involves doing away with old and wrong beliefs.

[Chairman^-_-^]

Josh,

Learning might involve asking questions. You are baiting.

Want to learn, please ask questions.

[Comrade_Josh]

well i came asking for knowledge not for attacks so you are saying it is okay to atack someones beliefs if they are different from yours as long as they asked the first question.
to tell the truth i was more accepted on the fascist forum when i posted against them

[ArrowLance]

well i came asking for knowledge not for attacks so you are saying it is okay to atack someones beliefs if they are different from yours as long as they asked the first question.
to tell the truth i was more accepted on the fascist forum when i posted against them

We are giving you knowledge, knowledge about your beliefs. Attacking beliefs is part of life, unless you are some p.o.s. liberal.

[Chairman^-_-^]

What is your question exactly? Your figures about communism and fascism were totally wrong. That wasn't even a question, that was an open polemic attack.

Okay, lets start over. Ask a question.

[#FF0000]

well i came asking for knowledge not for attacks so you are saying it is okay to atack someones beliefs if they are different from yours as long as they asked the first question.
to tell the truth i was more accepted on the fascist forum when i posted against them

To tell you the truth, you seemed like a troll at first. Hence the aggressive responses.

Secondly, don't base your politics off of something so petty as "these people were nice and some of these people weren't :(".

Thirdly, it may be easier for you to just PM individual members with questions, or do some lurking. Many of the questions you might want to ask have probably been answered before, at length.

So, there you go boyo.

[Comrade_Josh]

What is your question exactly? Your figures about communism and fascism were totally wrong. That wasn't even a question, that was an open polemic attack.

Okay, lets start over. Ask a question.
ok then i will start over Hi my name is josh i am undecided on my political view

now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books

my second question was why do you not like fascism

[Comrade_Josh]

To tell you the truth, you seemed like a troll at first. Hence the aggressive responses.

Secondly, don't base your politics off of something so petty as "these people were nice and some of these people weren't :(".

Thirdly, it may be easier for you to just PM individual members with questions, or do some lurking. Many of the questions you might want to ask have probably been answered before, at length.

So, there you go boyo.
i ask kindly that i do not take to pet names so if you would kindly stop calling me boyo

[khad]

From Ellman


Conclusions
(1) The surprisingly high figures for those freed from the Gulag are partly explained
by several decisions to increase the ‘efficiency’ of the Gulag by releasing invalids
and the incurably ill. This was a cost-cutting measure which saved food and
guards and other personnel, and improved the financial results, but was not a sign
of the humanity of the system, and artificially reduced the recorded number of
deaths in the Gulag.

(2) The best estimate that can currently be made of the number of repression deaths
in 1937–38 is the range 950,000–1.2 million, i.e. about a million. This is the
estimate which should be used by historians, teachers and journalists concerned
with twentieth century Russian—and world—history. Naturally it may, or may
not, have to be revised in the future as more evidence becomes available. Most
of these repression deaths were deliberate NKVD killings (‘executions’) but a
significant number were deaths in detention (some of which were also deliberate).
An unknown number of them were people who died shortly after their release
from the Gulag as a result of their treatment in it. The higher estimates given by
Conquest use a � awed method, can only be reconciled with the demographic data
by making implausible assumptions, and rely on unimpressive sources. Conquest’s
method is, however, useful in generating a healthy scepticism about the
meaning of the categories in the NKVD archival documents and the completeness
of the figures in these documents. The main uncertainties remaining concern
NKVD killings excluded from the Pavlov report and the mortality experience of
the 644,000 people recorded as being released from the Gulag in 1937–38. On
these two topics further research is needed.

(3) This estimate of roughly a million is, of course, an underestimate of repression
victims in 1937–38. It excludes those arrested in 1937–38 and who were still
under investigation on 31 December 1938 or who were sent to places of detention
(prison, colony or camp) and survived beyond 31 December 1938. It also
excludes those deported (mainly almost 200,000 Soviet Koreans). It also excludes
those who suffered but were not ‘repressed’. These include those dismissed from
their jobs but not arrested, and close relatives of those arrested who themselves
were not arrested but did suffer family grief and often material losses and also
were frequently discriminated against.

(4) The March 1947 report by the Minister of Internal Affairs does not demonstrate
that the recorded Gulag mortality data were falsified. This misinterpretation rests
on a misunderstanding of the meaning of ubyl’ in Soviet statistics of that period.

(5) It is true that the newly available data show that some earlier estimates of the
stock of prisoners at various dates were grossly exaggerated. They also show,
however, that the � ow of victims through the repressive system (both deportees
and prison, camp and colony inmates) was enormous.

(6) Estimates of the total number of Soviet repression victims depend both on
accurate estimates of the numbers in particular sub-categories and on judgement
of which sub-categories should be included in the category ‘repression victims’.
The former is a matter of statistics on which we are better informed today than
previously but on which the figures are still surrounded by a significant margin
of uncertainty. The latter is a matter of theoretical, political and historical
judgement. The number of deportees (first peasant victims of collectivisation and
then mainly the victims of ethnic cleansing) seems to have been about 6 million.
Currently available information suggests that the number of those sentenced on
political charges was also about 6 million. If these two categories are defined as
the ‘victims of repression’ then the number of the latter was about 12 million. (Of
these, from 1921 onwards about 3–3.5 million seem to have died from shooting,
while in detention, or while being deported or in deportation. In addition, a
currently unknown number died shortly after being released from the Gulag as a
result of their treatment in it. Furthermore, a currently unknown number were
killed by the Bolsheviks in 1918–20.) This total of about 12 million (of whom at
least 3–3.5 million were fatal) can be reduced by, say, 1.4 million by subtracting
the number of those ‘justifiably punished for political offences’. It can also be
increased substantially by including those peasants who were deported ‘only’
within their own region and by the about 1 million Kazakhs who � ed from
Kazakhstan in 1931–33. It can also be increased by including the large number
who ‘suffered’ but were not themselves arrested. It can also be increased by
including the non-Soviet victims, e.g. the German civilians interned in Soviet
death camps at the end of World War II. It can in addition be very substantially
increased by including also the victims of war, famine and disease, but whether
and to what extent this is appropriate is a matter of judgement. It seems that in
the 27 years of the Gulag’s existence (1930–56) the number of people who were
sentenced to detention in prisons, colonies and camps was 17–18 million. This
figure excludes the deportees, prisoners of war and internees, those in the
post-war filtration camps, and those who performed forced labour at their normal
place of work, and counts people sentenced more than once just once. The
number of prisoners in the Gulag (camps and colonies) in 1934–53 was 18.75
million (a figure which exaggerates the number of people involved since some
people were detained more than once). These huge figures are not a measure of
political repression. A large number of inmates of the Gulag were criminals.
However, the distinction between criminals and politicals was blurred under
Soviet conditions, the statistics on the classification of the prisoners are misleading,
and the concepts themselves are problematic under the conditions of the
1930s. Some (e.g. the homeless) are difficult to classify either as criminals or
politicals. The large number of Gulag inmates is mainly an indication of the large
number of people dealt with by the criminal justice system in this period and the
harshness of that system.

(7) During the Soviet period the main causes of excess deaths (which were mainly
in 1918–23, 1931–34 and 1941–45) were not repression but war, famine and
disease.83 The decline in mortality rates during the Soviet period led to a large
number of excess lives.

(8) There is a substantial difference between the demographic reality of Soviet power
and the popular image of it. This is mainly because released intellectual victims
of repression wrote books, the organs were bureaucratic organisations which
produced reports and kept records, and Ukrainians have a large diaspora, whereas
Central Asian nomad or Russian peasant victims of disease, starvation or
deportation, criminal or marginal victims of incarceration in the Gulag, the
victims of ethnic cleansing, the long-term improvement in Russian/Soviet anthropometric
indicators (height and weight)84 and the extra lives resulting from falling
mortality rates generally interest only a few specialists.85 Repression was enormously
important politically and was a series of ghastly crimes. It was both mass
murder and mass manslaughter. Under current international law it constituted a
series of crimes against humanity. It also affected a large part of the population.
In absolute numbers of victims, it was one of the worst episodes in the long and
cruel history of political persecution. However, repression mortality (excluding
famine, war and disease mortality, and repression survivors) was only a modest
part of the demographic history of the USSR.

(9) We now know much more about the number of victims of political persecution
in the USSR than we did before the archives were opened to historians. We do
not yet have, however, precise and complete figures for the total number of
victims or for some sub-totals. Further archival research—and discussion of the
meaning and significance of its findings—is still needed.

[ArrowLance]

now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books

IDK/IDC , the books are bullshit. Probably has something to do with the fact they are propaganda.



my second question was why do you not like fascism

Because it involves corporativism, nationalism and is against the 'weak.'

[Il Medico]

i have two questions for you Capt. how did you have such quick access to those pictures, are they saved on your hard drive? And two how come you hate military with a passion yet you have used a military rank as your name?

im afraid you have forced me to use statements that i did not come here to use i came here to learn
It's called Google, search Iraq war atrocities or victims, that should do ya. Have you ever heard of a show called Doctor Who? That explains my name. And I hate the military for three reasons, it is a tool that the upper class uses to use the lower class to fight for their interest (i.e profits). Two, I am a pacifist (With exception made for the world revolution, which will require violence unfortunately. However, because the overthrow of capitalism, as well as it's puppet and life support system the state, will mean an end to war... In this case Machiavelli was right). Three, I have seen what they do. Oh! And the fact that they are homophobic, and sexist fuck heads who make profit off of the plunder of the third world. That does not score them any points. (The military brass is of course of what I speak, just to clarify. Soldiers can be as much victims as the people they are forced to kill, although the damage tend to be more physiological)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6jSCtuQ-LzA/RljH-mhAymI/AAAAAAAAAhE/r_pHwng-2yk/s1600/soldier%2Bcrying.jpg
http://static.open.salon.com/files/crying_soldier_%282%291241063233.jpg
They are crying because they realize what they have done in the name of their 'country'. Something I think you'd be good to realize before you go off to kill for the rich's profits and learn all too late.

[Chairman^-_-^]

"now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books"

Firstly, you may have noticed we do not accept these figures. Please cite a source.

"my second question was why do you not like fascism"

The inherent racism, the anti working class positions, the dehumanization and alienation...the list goes on.

[#FF0000]

I replied to your other thread on Fascism with this.

We are against fascism for, pretty much, the same reasons we are against capitalism. Capitalism is a destructive, and exploitative. Gravedigger is totally correct when he says:


Historically, fascism comes out of fear of the working class movements on the one hand and the failure of capitalism on the other. Fascism in Italy acted as a responce to the two red years and the growing militancy of the working class and activly beat strikers and radicals in the streets.

So. When the working class gets strong, and the ruling class gets scared, you might just get fascism, in which capitalist class relations still exist, along with the exploitation and all that.

EDIT: I call everyone "boyo".

[khad]

"now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books"

Firstly, you may have noticed we do not accept these figures. Please cite a source.

Ellman reviews all those sources (conquest, et al) in his work and evaluates them on methodological grounds. There is no real source he could cite that could possibly be of use.

[Rjevan]

ok then i will start over Hi my name is josh i am undecided on my political view

now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books

my second question was why do you not like fascism
Hi, Josh.
As said before in this thread, it's not the best way to choose his ideology dependng on how many people it killed while other ideologies killed far more, besides, these 100 million can be argued about, if you take the "Black Book of Communism", for example, some of its others admit today that many sources in it are wrong or exaggerated and as archives are opened some people see their sources rebuted. Plus events like the Ukrainian famine are added to "communist crimes" while there is enough evidence that suggests that it was not planned at all and that the USSR government did its best to fight the famine.
Secondly, these systems, which caused the deads were not communism, they were socialist systems, there never ever was a communist state which is a contradiction in terms, since a communist society is stateless.

Another problem is that these 12 million killed by fascism/national socialism have been killed out of pure ignorance and hate for minorities like the Jews, the Roma, homosexuals, etc.
And there we have the reason why we hate fascism: no matter if you take the Italian Fascism or the German National Socialism, both of these systems are based on ignorance, intolerance and opression in their very basics. Workers are opressed by capitalists more free than in our society or the state, minorities are prosecuted (and finally maybe killed), there's a strong hierarchism, militarism, sexism,...
Communism wants to create a society where people are really free, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", where people are no longer fooled and exploited by capitalists and the ruling class. Fascism concentrates on the state, the nation, the Duce/Fuehrer and the ruling class, people are poisoned with national chauvinism and it's only a society where life is great for the ruling class and some "Aryans", while the large remain is still opressed, exploited or even prosecuted.

So you have to chose what suits you more: are you interested in equal rights for everybody or would you have no problem at all living in NS Germany or Mussolini's Italy? I can tell you that I could never stand living in such societies and that I hate them and see fighting their followers as absolutely important. But if you think that the guys at stromfront are right, it won't make sense to convince you to become a communist because they are pretty much the negation for everything we stand and the other way around, too.

[mel]

ok then i will start over Hi my name is josh i am undecided on my political view

now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books

my second question was why do you not like fascism

If you actually care to know why i said that capitalism kills 150,000 people every day (though explaining the obvious joke might ruin it) it's because the only way somebody can get a figure like 100 million deaths due to Communism, is by counting just about every death, natural or unnatural, that happened in the USSR in a given period. In the same vein, since the entire world (roughly speaking) is capitalist, I took the average number of deaths that occur in the world every day and used that as my figure. Adjusted for inflation, of course.

[Old Man Diogenes]

So i have been reading and people always talk down that "Fascism" has killed 12 million

But communism has killed over 100 million yet people look over that fact and fascism is still looked on as the big bad guy

Ideologies don't kill people, people do. You could say Communism killed the people in Russia with the Gulags but that wasn't Communism that was Stalin.

[ComradeOm]

my second question was why do you not like fascismBecause it stands fundamentally opposed to democracy, workers rights, internationalism, egalitarianism, and pretty much everything else that socialists believe in. It is a hideous and hateful ideology that justifies the brutal oppression of the working class in the name of some 'national good'


now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same booksI'm assuming that you're not including the 50+ million who died during Hitler's failed campaigns of conquest in that first figure?

And the second, as has already been pointed out, is bullshit

[rosie]

We are trying to teach you, but you are ignoring it on the defense. You aren't even willing to come up with some arguments for your beliefs it seems. Part of learning involves doing away with old and wrong beliefs.
I believe Howard Zinn stated that! Great writer! Good job.

[rosie]

so your telling me those two children holding russian made pistols are americans
Why isn't this user banned yet? I understand being young and brainwashed by the public education institution...but COME ON! This kid (not to be ageist, I am not too much older myself) is obviously not willing to be open minded enough to be properly educated. Perhaps, Comrade Josh, you should post in Opposing Ideologies, since you aren't asking any questions, or trying to learn (or teach for that matter), you are only stating your blind faith in Nationalism. If you want to find others with your mind set, try using Myspace. That site should be more than adequate for your education needs (or lack thereof rather).
We here are attempting to bring everyone together and build a group of tolerance and understanding. You do not seem to be interested in any of that. You are quite reactionary, which is a natural response to the learning process...but you must remain open minded or you will never progress from that aggravating state of mind and you will never learn anything.

[NecroCommie]

Claims such as "communism killed 30gazillion people" should not be taken seriously. I will now explain my usual reaction to such claims with Kings quest(c) terminology.

You hear a ridiculous claim made by a conservatist. You also see a room with a hammer in it. What do you do?

- Pick up hammer_

You have picked up the hammer. What do you use it on?

- Use hammer on conservatist_

You use your hammer on the conservatist. Conservatist howls, but you do not know if they are howls of pain or ignorance. What do you do?

- Use hammer on conservatist_

Yep, the howls are that of pain. The princess is now saved from almost certain goonery! Well done!

[Kwisatz Haderach]

now for the question it was more of a why do people react stronger to the 12 million they learn in history books compared to the 100 million in the same books
The 12 million you are talking about were the victims of the Holocaust alone. Fascism killed many more people in events other than the Holocaust. For example, fascists started World War 2, and the total number of people who died in that war is around 50 million (only 12 million of them died in concentration camps; the rest were civilians killed in their homes, and soldiers killed on the field of battle).

And there is only one book that ever claimed "communism" killed 100 million people - the "Black Book of Communism." It is extremely controversial, virulently biased against communism, and sloppy in its math. By the editor's own admission, they did not manage to count more than 85 million deaths despite their best efforts, but they decided to say "100 million" instead because it sounded more impressive. If they could add 15 million out of thin air and admit to it, just imagine how much more they added without admitting.

And finally, the methods of death must be taken into consideration. People react strongly to the 12 million victims of the Holocaust mainly because of the method used in the killings. People who had done nothing - not even spoken against the state - were rounded up by the Nazis, taken from their homes, and killed systematically with industrial efficiency. This is generally considered worse than killing someone in battle, or than killing someone who actually opposed the state and knew what would happen as a result.

In particular, it is considered worse when the state actually sends someone to kill people than when the state simply stands back and lets people die from other causes. The vast majority of deaths attributed to "communism" were not intentional killings or executions, but people who died of natural causes while the state refused to save them.

[Il Medico]

In particular, it is considered worse when the state actually sends someone to kill people than when the state simply stands back and lets people die from other causes. The vast majority of deaths attributed to "communism" were not intentional killings or executions, but people who died of natural causes while the state refused to save them.
Yes. However, i would like to point out that communism is implicitly anti-state. Attributing anything a state does (no matter what that state claims to be) to communism is like attributing the vile acts of the Crusaders to Jesus (although I am sure that some anti-theists here would be happy to do that)

[Kwisatz Haderach]

And more importantly, think of how many people capitalism has killed if we use the same standards - if we count every avoidable or unnecessary death in every capitalist society as a victim murdered by capitalism.

Hunger alone kills 20,000 people every day in capitalist societies. Those deaths are certainly avoidable, since the world produces enough food to feed everyone. So, counting this one thing alone, capitalism kills 100 million people every 5000 days - that is to say, 100 million people in 13 years, 8 months and 12 days.