Fascism?

[Comrade_Josh]

What is the problem with fascism? Not national socialism but true italian fascism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What is the problem with fascism? Not national socialism but true italian fascism.It wants to destroy (and probably kill) all of us as well as any independent working class movements.

[Comrade_Josh]

but im friends with some fascists and sure they rip on me a bit and i get my go at them but from what they've told me of fascism its not really a system that wants communism gone more like they want it to leave them alone


dont take me wrong im not defending im just trying to sort things out

[scarletghoul]

fascism is highly oppressive and totalitarian, even classical italian fascism. It attempts to stop society progressing by preserving capitalism through class collaboration. it emphasises nationalism, which leads to racism and international war.

[Comrade_Josh]

it doesnt preserve capitalism is uses corporatism as its economic standing and italian fascism set out to just make a purely defensive militia and then italy got dragged into and agressive war by national socialism

[Jimmie Higgins]

it doesnt preserve capitalism is uses corporatism as its economic standing and italian fascism set out to just make a purely defensive militia and then italy got dragged into and aggressive war by national socialismHistorically, fascism comes out of fear of the working class movements on the one hand and the failure of capitalism on the other. Fascism in Italy acted as a responce to the two red years and the growing militancy of the working class and activly beat strikers and radicals in the streets.

[Comrade_Josh]

Historically, fascism comes out of fear of the working class movements on the one hand and the failure of capitalism on the other. Fascism in Italy acted as a responce to the two red years and the growing militancy of the working class and activly beat strikers and radicals in the streets.

Thats not what i read when i read the Anatomy of fascism and three new deals

[Comrade_Josh]

another thing when refering to fascism do you use fascism as a synonym with national socialism

[LOLseph Stalin]

another thing when refering to fascism do you use fascism as a synonym with national socialism

Some people do, yes although there's differences between the two ideologies. National Socialism is more about Racial purity than Fascism. Mussolini actually had Jews and other minority groups working with him while Hitler would have never allowed that.

[ComradeOm]

it doesnt preserve capitalism is uses corporatism as its economic standingAnd corporatism is essentially the state exerting its influence to preserve capitalist relations. Do not confuse the 'free market' with 'capitalist'

In both Italy and Germany fascist movement set out to systematically destroy the proletariat as a political force. They did so in reaction to the huge gains in the proletariat's material standing (such as the 40hr week, minimum wage agreements, union recognition, etc) following WWI. Its no coincidence that both Mussolini and Hitler were invited into government in the capitalist state. They were not revolutionary movements but rather a final attempt by the grand bourgeoisie to both stem and roll back the accomplishments of the working class


...and italian fascism set out to just make a purely defensive militia and then italy got dragged into and agressive war by national socialismThis "purely defensive militia" was some way from home in Ethiopia or Albania :rolleyes:

[Comrade_Josh]

both were already colonies and bothe had civilian revolts that mussolini sent troops to calm down to stop the killing of innocents

and as for corporatism your perception is off thanks to my friends i know the ins and outs of it


The basic idea of corporatism is that the society and economy of a country should be organized into major interest groups and representatives of those interest groups settle any problems through negotiation and joint agreement. In contrast to a market economy which operates through competition a corporate economic works through collective bargaining.

[Sasha]

but im friends with some fascists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqH_0LPVoho

[Comrade_Josh]

again neither are racist one is of african descent and the other is white and both get along very well

[Misanthrope]

Fascism relies on corporatism (monopolization), nationalism, militarism, and imperialism. Why would you want that?

[Comrade_Josh]

Fascism relies on corporatism (monopolization), nationalism, militarism, and imperialism. Why would you want that?
well one im a nationalist and love my country as weird as that may sound and from what ive been told no modern fascist wants to start an empire because it is more trouble than it is worth and again the version of corporatism is way off


and now i feel like i must apologize for it sounds like i am defending fascism i guess my ideas are way off than what yours are

[Misanthrope]

well one im a nationalist and love my country as weird as that may sound and from what ive been told no modern fascist wants to start an empire because it is more trouble than it is worth and again the version of corporatism is way off


and now i feel like i must apologize for it sounds like i am defending fascism i guess my ideas are way off than what yours are

What does nationalism solve? and just out of curiosity what are your politics?

[Comrade_Josh]

What does nationalism solve? and just out of curiosity what are your politics?
if you had read my other post you would have found that i have stated that i am undecided and am sorting things out.

nationalism isnt meant to solve anything it more of an abstract thing that you either have or dont like me for example i want to become an infantryman and die for my country you see im not out to solve anything im out to do my duties that i feel i must for the love of my country

[ComradeOm]

both were already colonies and bothe had civilian revolts that mussolini sent troops to calm down to stop the killing of innocentsNo, you are wrong. Both Ethiopia and Albania were independent kingdoms and were recognised as such (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations_members) by the League of Nations. Neither had ever been ruled by the Kingdom of Italy and Italian claims on both nations were entirely without merit. The idea that these interventions were merely 'police action' to "stop the killing of innocents" is preposterous... particularly so when considering Mussolini's proud boasts as to building an empire


and as for corporatism your perception is off thanks to my friends i know the ins and outs of itSure, trust a fascist to tell you about corporatism. No doubt they've also explained the role of the Jews in governing world finance :rolleyes:


The basic idea of corporatism is that the society and economy of a country should be organized into major interest groups and representatives of those interest groups settle any problems through negotiation and joint agreement. In contrast to a market economy which operates through competition a corporate economic works through collective bargaining.And at which point in the latter is capitalism abolished?

Regardless, in both Italy and Germany the "collective bargaining" was merely an excuse to crush trade unions and all form of independent worker expression. In their place were state sanctioned unions that simply carried out the government's will. This uniformly involved freezing wages, abolishing benefits, and generally shifting the workplace balance of power back to the bourgeoisie. All discontent and dissent was repressed by the police and other arms of the state. Far from entailing "negotiation and joint agreement" fascism imposed fiats from above that were hopelessly in favour of big business. This is not surprising when you remember that these were the businessmen who were financing the fascist parties and propping up the state in the first place

[Comrade_Josh]

Sure, trust a fascist to tell you about corporatism. No doubt they've also explained the role of the Jews in governing world finance :rolleyes:



im afraid you are mixing fascism with national socialism

[ArrowLance]

if you had read my other post you would have found that i have stated that i am undecided and am sorting things out.

nationalism isnt meant to solve anything it more of an abstract thing that you either have or dont like me for example i want to become an infantryman and die for my country you see im not out to solve anything im out to do my duties that i feel i must for the love of my country

And so you would blindly follow your country for its own sake? I'm not completely sure you understand what nationalism is and how it differs from patriotism. Nationalism is a racist unthinking position.

[Il Medico]

And so you would blindly follow your country for its own sake? I'm not completely sure you understand what nationalism is and how it differs from patriotism. Nationalism is a racist unthinking position.
So is patriotism.

[ArrowLance]

So is patriotism.

I didn't really defend patriotism, but believing in your countries ideals is not the same as just believing in your country. Patriotism is also not inherently racist.

And of course not everyone agrees on the definition of patriotism (or nationalism).

[Il Medico]

I didn't really defend patriotism, but believing in your countries ideals is not the same as just believing in your country. Patriotism is also not inherently racist.

And of course not everyone agrees on the definition of patriotism (or nationalism).
Patriotism require supporting your countries interest over other's interest. Here in America in 2001, you weren't a patriot if you didn't attack (at least verbally) Arabs and people with brown skin. Patriotism is a nice word for Nationalism, and Nationalism is a nice word for Fascism. They are all the same in my book.

[ArrowLance]

Patriotism require supporting your countries interest over other's interest. Here in America in 2001, you weren't a patriot if you didn't attack (at least verbally) Arabs and people with brown skin. Patriotism is a nice word for Nationalism, and Nationalism is a nice word for Fascism. They are all the same in my book.

Well my vernacular differs from yours there then. I agree that patriotism is against internationalism but not that it is synonymous with Nationalism.

[ComradeOm]

im afraid you are mixing fascism with national socialismDon't try and pretend that there are fundamental differences between the two or that one led the other down the garden path. Both displayed a disgusting degree of racism that resulted from their ultra-nationalist world views


Patriotism is a nice word for Nationalism, and Nationalism is a nice word for Fascism. They are all the same in my book.Then I suggest you rewrite it or get a new book. Patriotism, nationalism, and fascism are all different concepts. They may occasionally intersect but to claim that they are "all the same" is simply sloppy thinking

[Il Medico]

Then I suggest you rewrite it or get a new book. Patriotism, nationalism, and fascism are all different concepts. They may occasionally intersect but to claim that they are "all the same" is simply sloppy thinking
Of course there is some differences. However, they advocate and eventually lead to the same thing. Pride in country (Patriotism)leads to belief that your country is better then other countries (Nationalism) which in turn leads to the idea that because you country is better then all other countries, it can do as it wills. (Fascism) So no, not the same, but still very close.

(Note all I just described was the attitude of the average American in 2003, what good patriots they were)

[#FF0000]

We are against fascism for, pretty much, the same reasons we are against capitalism. Capitalism is a destructive, and exploitative. Gravedigger is totally correct when he says:


Historically, fascism comes out of fear of the working class movements on the one hand and the failure of capitalism on the other. Fascism in Italy acted as a responce to the two red years and the growing militancy of the working class and activly beat strikers and radicals in the streets.

So. When the working class gets strong, and the ruling class gets scared, you might just get fascism, in which capitalist class relations still exist, along with the exploitation and all that.

[khad]

both were already colonies and bothe had civilian revolts that mussolini sent troops to calm down to stop the killing of innocents
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/8/128915579246756212.jpg

[Manifesto]

Mussolini actually had Jews and other minority groups working with him while Hitler would have never allowed that.
Strange thing, I remember seeing a picture of Mussolini wearing a yellow star standing next to Hitler.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I don't like fascism because it both takes away freedom, which I support, and encourages capitalism, which I oppose.

[rednordman]

im afraid you are mixing fascism with national socialismYou have a very slight point, BUT didnt hitler base his idea on mussolini's model and ideals. I know that he betrayed him, but mussolini didnt decide to go against hitler did he? Heck he even got his own republic from the nazis. Also lets not forget the thosands of communists and anarchists that where brutally murdered out of sheer intolerance, by the fascists. Does not go down well on this forum does it...

[ComradeOm]

Of course there is some differences. However, they advocate and eventually lead to the same thingExcept that that's not true. 'Patriotism', which is a nebulous concept in itself, does not automatically lead to fascism or even necessarily nationalism. Similarly there are countless nationalists, both today and historically, who are not fascists


Pride in country (Patriotism)leads to belief that your country is better then other countries (Nationalism) which in turn leads to the idea that because you country is better then all other countries, it can do as it wills. (Fascism) So no, not the same, but still very closeNonsense. To give an historical example - Adolf Hitler was a fascist, agreed? But let's look at his contemporary Gustav Stresemann. Here was a politician who was an undoubted nationalist, and indeed imperialist, who fully supported the expansion of German influence (including redrawing borders) into Eastern Europe. Yet Stresemann was no fascist; his nationalism was pragmatic and always weighed against his liberal economic instincts and, grudging, respect for Republican institutions. He was never a supporter/ally of the NSDAP

Now this is far more than simply splitting hairs with the aid of an obscure historical example. If you are going to apply political labels then its pretty important that you use the right one. Labelling every nationalist a fascist is not only inaccurate but it degrades the importance of the latter term and presents the wrong analysis. Like it or not, the US today, or 2003, is not a fascist state and its mainstream politics does not even maintain a real fascist fringe

[Il Medico]

Except that that's not true. 'Patriotism', which is a nebulous concept in itself, does not automatically lead to fascism or even necessarily nationalism.
Perhaps not Fascism, because it is a very extreme point of view. But how is "pride in country" not nationalism? No internationalist can be Patriotic, because Patriotism is simply the expression of Nationalism.


Similarly there are countless nationalists, both today and historically, who are not fascists
Fair enough. However, as seen in Serbia, nationalism can be just as bad as fascism.


Nonsense. To give an historical example - Adolf Hitler was a fascist, agreed? But let's look at his contemporary Gustav Stresemann. Here was a politician who was an undoubted nationalist, and indeed imperialist, who fully supported the expansion of German influence (including redrawing borders) into Eastern Europe. Yet Stresemann was no fascist; his nationalism was pragmatic and always weighed against his liberal economic instincts and, grudging, respect for Republican institutions. He was never a supporter/ally of the NSDAP
Ok... What does this prove? Nazis were also nationalist (or socialist if you listen to Glenn beck:lol:) Nazis held a very extreme racial and totalitarian point of view (thus making them fascist). However, they still held the same position on nationalism (which is the root of Fascism [i.e for the homeland, fatherland etc]) as Stresemann.


Now this is far more than simply splitting hairs with the aid of an obscure historical example. If you are going to apply political labels then its pretty important that you use the right one. Fair enough


Labelling every nationalist a fascist is not only inaccurate but it degrades the importance of the latter term and presents the wrong analysis. Ok. However they are both equally dangerous.

Like it or not, the US today, or 2003, is not a fascist state and its mainstream politics does not even maintain a real fascist fringe
I know your in Ireland so you didn't see the crap that happened here after 9/11, so I understand how you don't see what I meant. The state itself is not a fascist entity, but both the state and the majority of people took extremely nationalistic, sexist, homophobic and racist position post 9/11. There were attack on Arabs, Persians, Indians, and basically anyone who looked Middle Eastern, there was calls for war, denouncing of immigrants and homosexuals as the cause of 9/11, a spike in religious intolerance and fundamentalism, spying by the government on the people, etc. The list goes on. All based in a climate of fear that took 8 disastrous years of Bush to simply return America to Clinton era bigotry. These are extremely nationalistic, racist, and xenophobic views that were very strong in America for a good part of the Bush presidency. These very 'fascist' views were held on high, while those who questioned this or were outsiders were called evil communist and terrorist who wanted to destroy America....All under the guise of simple love of country (patriotism)

[ComradeOm]

Perhaps not Fascism, because it is a very extreme point of view. But how is "pride in country" not nationalism? No internationalist can be Patriotic, because Patriotism is simply the expression of NationalismBecause patriotism is, to be simplistic, pride in your country/region and its accomplishments. Nationalism is a distinct political view that considers the nation to be a single indivisible unit whose interests must be pursued at the expense of others. The two are not the same and while all nationalists are patriots, not all patriots are nationalists


Fair enough. However, as seen in Serbia, nationalism can be just as bad as fascism"As bad as" is not the same as 'the same'. They are different phenomena with different objectives and must be understood in different contexts. Its not enough to simply say 'We don't like either'


Ok... What does this prove? Nazis were also nationalist (or socialist if you listen to Glenn beck:lol:) Nazis held a very extreme racial and totalitarian point of view (thus making them fascist). However, they still held the same position on nationalism (which is the root of Fascism [i.e for the homeland, fatherland etc]) as StresemannAnd what differentiates the two figures - a host of other political policies that caused Hitler to launch a war of unparalleled aggression and made Stresemann an advocate for peace in inter-war Europe


These are extremely nationalistic, racist, and xenophobic views that were very strong in America for a good part of the Bush presidency. These very 'fascist' views were held on high, while those who questioned this or were outsiders were called evil communist and terrorist who wanted to destroy America....All under the guise of simple love of country (patriotism)Again, you're conflating the two. Nationalist sentiment is not by itself indication of fascism. If Bush had suspended congress, declared himself 'The Leader', introduced corporatist planning methods, etc, etc, then I'd agree that the regime or even the prevailing sentiment was fascist. As it was, judging from the outside, it appears to have been merely very reactionary

[Old Man Diogenes]

i want to become an infantryman and die for my country you see im not out to solve anything im out to do my duties that i feel i must for the love of my country

If this is truly your opinion, I think you might be in the wrong place.

[Colonello Buendia]

Fascism by definition is the Union of State and Industry. this means that the State has the Factory owners welfare at heart rather than the workers. In Italy and Spain this was enforced by it's ties to the catholic church. Italian fascism leads to racism, nationalism and the whole hearted suppression of the working class, it's pretty shit

[Ismail]

As others have said, Fascism in practice is what Marxists would call State-Capitalism. Rather than rely on the market, the bourgeoisie rely on the state. Of course this creates contradictions: the 'state' bourgeoisie are comfortable with being strong allies of the state, but the 'market' bourgeoisie know that without the support of the state they're much less powerful and liable to be stamped out, the 'state' bourgeoisie in this case generally rely on building heavy industry, which is hard for the 'market' bourgeoisie to do as they lack state subsidies and generally aren't focused on heavy industry, etc.

Rather than stress class struggle, Fascism stresses class conciliation, which is utopian and in practice workers often got spied on by their employers, still got exploited (read up on the Marxist concept of surplus-value, which certainly existed), etc. National Socialism (Nazism) claimed that they were the 'true' socialists and were against Marxism, while Fascists claimed that both capitalism and socialism were dead ideologies and claimed that fascism was for "the people." In practice, their economic systems were not much different.

You could talk about the "ideal" Fascism with its national-syndicalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National-Syndicalist) roots, but it is still idealistic and Fascism (like Nazism) still fundamentally appeals to the petty-bourgeoisie over the proletariat. How can you justify, for example, Mussolini's attitude towards the Communists?

You should probably read this: http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_fascism.htm

[NecroCommie]

I don't like fascism because it both takes away freedom, which I support, and encourages capitalism, which I oppose.
Whereas I basically agree with you, I would discourage the usage of the word "freedom" without further elaborations. Freedom is a subjective concept and in topics as large as this it is mostly used as a form of propaganda.