Do you like meat?

[Charles Xavier]

If you do.... !GREAT NEWS! There is now a group for you! Join the Meat Eating group

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=184

We will discuss how to off set the Vegan efforts to reduce meat consumption by eating more meat! Protein is important for muscle building, so eat meat!

Or Join if you just love the flavour of meat and cannot live without it!

Lets T-Bone them in the face!

http://www.lisburncity.gov.uk/filestore/images/Raw-Meat-1.jpg

[Bright Banana Beard]

Oh man, I am so in! Tasty meat beat the vegan's argument!

[Pogue]

haha :D

i veganism an anarchist conspiracy too tupac ?

[hugsandmarxism]

Count me in :thumbup1:

http://firehazard.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/burger.jpg

I'd sure love one of these about now! :drool:

[Sean]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3642661392_5801c3b218.jpg

I'm with the dinosaur on this one.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Omnivore was here

Carnivore is a loser

[Pirate Utopian]

Mmmm.... meat....
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2009/02/25/TU0605-1_BBQ-Spare-Ribs_s4x3_lg.jpg

[hugsandmarxism]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muvz6OnY4O8

[Manifesto]

Nothing better than prime rib!
http://www.lasplash.com/uploads/2/Lawrys_Beverly_Hills_Review_1_2.jpg

[Angry Young Man]

Yup, I'm in. Bloody veggies, spoiling every bbq. Frankie Boyle put it best when he said 'there is a vegetarian option: you can fuck off!'

[Charles Xavier]

Count me in :thumbup1:

http://firehazard.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/burger.jpg

I'd sure love one of these about now! :drool:

Me too

[LOLseph Stalin]

Meat is yummy! TAKE THAT PETA! :p

P.S-I'm a member of the meat eating group. ;)

[Charles Xavier]

http://www.jacksonslodge.com/images/photos/hunting_photo_main.jpg


We need to make meat eating number 1! Everyone promote consumption of animal flesh!!!!!!!

[LOLseph Stalin]

Everybody shall eat meat or be purged!

[Sam_b]

What a crap group.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I fucking love meat. Beef, pork, duck, turkey, fish, deer venison, moose, black bear...I just loving murdering animals and devouring their tasty flesh, what can I say?

[Invincible Summer]

Meat is yummy! TAKE THAT PETA! :p

P.S-I'm a member of the meat eating group. ;)

I'm a vegetarian and I think PETA are a sack of shit. Vegetarian/veganism is a personal choice (albeit with economic, environmental, and social implications), not something to be sensationalized and definitely not to denigrate others' dietary choices.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm a vegetarian and I think PETA are a sack of shit. Vegetarian/veganism is a personal choice (albeit with economic, environmental, and social implications), not something to be sensationalized and definitely not to denigrate others' dietary choices.

Yes, for some people it is. For others, like PETA they're vegans because eating animals is "abuse".

[LeninBalls]

Yup, I'm in. Bloody veggies, spoiling every bbq.

Hey, veggies are able to have bbqs too. I had one yesterday, I bought my own vegetarian meat and grilled it. Nothing complicated.


because eating animals is "abuse".

It isn't?

[LOLseph Stalin]

It isn't?

It's not. I was being sarcastic, haha. It's natural to eat meat. We have been doing since the beginning of our existance. :p

[K.Bullstreet]

No.

[bellyscratch]

What a crap group.

My thoughts exactly. I'm a veggie and I don't care about other people eating meat or making a joke about me not eating meat. I get it all the time and have no problem dealing with it. But I find the group rather crude to be honest. I'm not against people having a 'meat eating group', but the group seems to be more of a 'I hate vegans group'.

[Charles Xavier]

My thoughts exactly. I'm a veggie and I don't care about other people eating meat or making a joke about me not eating meat. I get it all the time and have no problem dealing with it. But I find the group rather crude to be honest. I'm not against people having a 'meat eating group', but the group seems to be more of a 'I hate vegans group'.


Meatatarianism is a lifestyle choice! Stop oppressing our dietary rights!

[Bilan]

Meatatarianism isn't even a word, let alone that clever. Get a job.

[ZeroNowhere]

Exploitation is a powerful cure for silliness.

[Bilan]

I couldn't agree more.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Meatatarianism is a lifestyle choice! Stop oppressing our dietary rights!

I couldn't agree more. :cool:

[ZeroNowhere]

This thread started stupid, and now somebody's mentioned Stalin and it's going to degenerate into something so stupid that it overwhelms us mortals with its stupidity and obliterates the human race. Way to go, socialist.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Whenever Stalin is mentioned in a thread, there's a serious risk that the sheer amount of stupidity will rip a hole in the space-time continuum, devouring the entire universe in a swirling black hole of idiocy.

Or in the very least annoy me with some stupid jokes about "purging".

[ls]

purge

[Dervish]

It's not. I was being sarcastic, haha. It's natural to eat meat. We have been doing since the beginning of our existance. :p

It's just as 'natural' as classes and the oppression of women.

Wow 2pac you're so manly. You make my loins sting.

Anyway, I very much like the taste of meat. That's not a good enough reason for me to eat it, though.

[Charles Xavier]

It's just as 'natural' as classes and the oppression of women.

Wow 2pac you're so manly. You make my loins sting.

Anyway, I very much like the taste of meat. That's not a good enough reason for me to eat it, though.
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02/smallmanliftBM_450x553.jpg

Vegan Bodybuilder on the left, Meatatarian bodybuilder on the right.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/yourdaddykills.jpg

Vegan Comic book


http://www.wildsound-filmmaking-feedback-events.com/images/x-men_pic.jpg

Meatatarian Comic Book

[LOLseph Stalin]

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02/smallmanliftBM_450x553.jpg

Vegan Bodybuilder on the left, Meatatarian bodybuilder on the right.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/yourdaddykills.jpg

Vegan Comic book


http://www.wildsound-filmmaking-feedback-events.com/images/x-men_pic.jpg

Meatatarian Comic Book

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Sam_b]

My my, how bigoted.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Should I be mature about this? Being in favor of the death penalty technically doesn't warrant restriction. Being a supporter of animal rights doesn't, either. I could start a group:

Execute all people who eat meat.

I don't agree with the view. But it would be a logical response to such an immature group. If you do insist on unethically eating meat simply in spite of the feelings of other human beings, go ahead. I'd say it's the moral equivalent of throwing spiders at someone who is terrified of them - simply for the fun of it. If that's how you get your kicks, go ahead. Eat some chicken wings for me to counteract your evil doings.

Even if you think eating meat is alright, flaunting it in front of people who don't is kind of harsh, I think. Respect for tolerance is a pretty good value. As bad as the vegetarians are for criticizing your diet (how dare they), you should step into the opposite shoes. Vegetarians are respecting your ability to eat meat, for the most part. That's pretty tolerant when they think it's morally equivalent to murder. Some of them (and some would) would take your meat away and shoot you if given the chance.

I'm basically supporting your right to kill people (from my perspective) out of respect for your opinion (which I think is illogical). That's a pretty high degree of tolerance. I'd say most vegetarians have a high degree of tolerance.

Insulting vegetarians for fun isn't very tolerant. We have feelings, you know.

Nah, I don't care. I'm just bored. The group is pretty juvenile though.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Ok, first off I'm not in that group in an attempt to make fun of vegans. I respect their lifestyle choice while at the same time I should be able to express mine. I did post a few comments bashing such groups as PETA, but that's different. There's alot of vegans who don't like them. I'm sorry if the group offended anybody(I wasn't the one who made it anyway).

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Ok, first off I'm not in that group in an attempt to make fun of vegans. I respect their lifestyle choice while at the same time I should be able to express mine. I'm sorry if the group offended anybody(I wasn't the one who made it anyway).

Well that's fine. It's not a big deal. I'm just arguing on principle because I'm bored. I don't get offended, generally. I can't even remember the last time I got offended. I was called a racist for insulting a religion. I was somewhat offended because I was being religiously intolerant - not racist.

It's just hard to see the purpose of the group aside from jokingly insulting vegetarians given the OP.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I prefer all of the other food groups over meat, however meat is ok. So maybe this group isn't for mee........

[Sam_b]

I respect their lifestyle choice while at the same time I should be able to express mine

I entirely agree. So let's set up some more groups about respecting people's lifestyle choices.

The first one i'm thinking about is a group to celebrate smoking. Fuck yeah! Smoking is hella cool and we're better than those down-your-thought types who say its a danger. After all, these people need to be purged and GULAGED because they're hating on me and the Marlboro man.

After that i'm going to set up a group for living in a house (these homeless people just rip of my lifestyle choice.Hell, maybe when i'm done a group for wearing vests, drinking Stella Artois and beating up spouses? I can do what I want, BECAUSE ITS MY LIFESTYLE CHOICE!!!!







I again repeat, this group is insane. I wish people would stop making ridiculous groups for everything and anything.

[Revy]

I love nuts. Especially the cashew. the peanut is kinda gross actually, unless it's in butter form. But the cashew is great as a nut. If you think otherwise you disgust me, that is all.

[Trystan]

This thread has made me hungry asb hell. Who's up for an all you can eat meat buffet? :thumbup1:

[Bilan]

I'm beginning to think people in this thread are 14, and the main offender, 7.

[Trystan]

Oh, yeah, have a dig at our weight. At least our farts don't smell of cabbage.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm beginning to think people in this thread are 14, and the main offender, 7.

I'm 18 btw, and the main offender is who knows how old?

[#FF0000]

What a crap group.

you should start a group for people who hate fun

[LOLseph Stalin]

you should start a group for people who hate fun

...and I'm not joining it. :p

[ZeroNowhere]

you should start a group for people who hate funYou should start a group for people who don't have enough fun and therefore hold very low standards.

[#FF0000]

You should start a group for people who don't have enough fun and therefore hold very low standards.

Brilliance

[Charles Xavier]

You should start a group for people who don't have enough fun and therefore hold very low standards.

You should start a joke that is actually funny.

[Blackscare]

You should start a joke that is actually funny.


Zing



Your move, zeronowhere.




I joined the group, and I love it.

To all the people whining that the creation of a gag group to celebrate meat is somehow intolerant, while we have to deal with obnoxious fucks from peta and their stunts (they're quite fond of putting up graphic images that are reminiscent of anti-choice fetus propaganda, although I'm sure that's not as offensive as a picture of a t-bone stake), get a life and pull up a plate of bacon explosion to calm your oh-so-sensitive nerves.

http://mattwisdom.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/bacon65033.jpg


I don't see why meat eaters can't have a group. :/ I mean, the food we eat is actually good so we have something positive to discuss. Like that magnificent thing above this text. Look at it.

[Jazzratt]

..."meatatarian"

No, really?

I mean I've as low an opinion of vegetarians & vegans as the next man (presuming the next man thinks they're all fucking stupid) but you're making people who eat meat look bad.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Is dat sum Bacon Explosion?!

[Il Medico]

Most people have this for breakfast:
http://www.tonychor.com/archive/bacon.jpg
However, I prefer my delicious meat with vinegar soaked cabbage and have this for breakfast quite often:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UIXOn06Pz70/R8ScBau52LI/AAAAAAAAB-U/QAtDGMQQjXg/s800/Reuben+Sandwich.jpg

[Dervish]

A beautiful veggie burger
http://image.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/veggie-burger.jpg

And for dessert, Lydia Guevara, Che's grand daughter, posing sexy for peta-
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/02022009/2031128/NYR101_wa.jpg

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Mmm, Sauerkraut. Good with hotdogs.

[Vanguard1917]

I love eating meat, too. And, so, i thank the colosal human achievement that is factory farming, one that should always be improved, expanded and made more efficient and cleaner, so that no human being on earth should ever again want for good food .

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/wp-content/uploads/pigs-missouri-factory-farm.jpg


If you do.... !GREAT NEWS! There is now a group for you! Join the Meat Eating group

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=184

We will discuss how to off set the Vegan efforts to reduce meat consumption by eating more meat! Protein is important for muscle building, so eat meat!

Or Join if you just love the flavour of meat and cannot live without it!

Lets T-Bone them in the face!

http://www.lisburncity.gov.uk/filestore/images/Raw-Meat-1.jpg

What's that at the bottom left? Looks juicy.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Anyone like cow liver? So fucking tasty and argh soooo good.

[mosfeld]

It's not. I was being sarcastic, haha. It's natural to eat meat. We have been doing since the beginning of our existance. :p Yeah, wow, we've also been oppressing women, believing in a non-existant higher power, starting wars (?) and all sorts of gruesome acts since the beginning of civilization. Is that reason enough to continue doing it? (or you know, you get the glimpse of what im saying or w/e)

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig-slaughter-17.jpg

glorious bacon

[Pirate Utopian]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wgh3P0eqLmk/SYGEDnKRdJI/AAAAAAAAERM/Nvgmv1t9U9g/s400/drooling_homer-712749.gif.png

[Misanthrope]

Stupid.

[bcbm]

This is a wonderful showcase thread on how fucking stupid some people who post here are.

[Charles Xavier]

This is a wonderful showcase thread on how fucking stupid some people who post here are.


Good example.

[bcbm]

Good example.

Sorry, I should've just posted a picture of a steak and something defending my masculinity from the affront of those awful vegetarians.

[Jazzratt]

This is a wonderful showcase thread on how fucking stupid some people who post here are.

Case in point. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1488286&postcount=57) Really though I don't see the point in telling everyone what food I love, except in a "favourite meal" thread or something.

And by that I mean:

http://www.thelocal.de/articleImages/16943.jpg

HUR HUR HUR MEAT MAKES MY DICK BIG.

[Il Medico]

Case in point. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1488286&postcount=57) Really though I don't see the point in telling everyone what food I love, except in a "favourite meal" thread or something.

And by that I mean:

http://www.thelocal.de/articleImages/16943.jpg

HUR HUR HUR MEAT MAKES MY DICK BIG.
If that is what I think it is (Gyro) then I would so rep you if this wasn't chit-chat. I freaking love Gyros!:cool:

[Dervish]

If that is what I think it is (Gyro) then I would so rep you if this wasn't chit-chat. I freaking love Gyros!:cool:

You should try some Falafel, then.

REAL Falafel, not the bullshit they sell in USA and Europe.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Looking at that makes me want a fucking kebab so badly. Good grief.

[Vanguard1917]

Sorry, I should've just posted a picture of a steak and something defending my masculinity from the affront of those awful vegetarians.

There's nothing wrong with vegetarians in and of themselves. People should be free to eat whatever they want. Problems arise only when veggies/vegans feel they have the right to dictate the lives of everyone else.

[Dervish]

There's nothing wrong with vegetarians in and of themselves. People should be free to eat whatever they want. Problems arise only when veggies/vegans feel they have the right to dictate the lives of everyone else.

True. And it's exactly the same with those annoying socialists. If they want to live in their stupid communes and Kibbutzim that's okay, I honestly don't care, but who the frak are they to tell me or anyone else how to produce or how to do business???

[Vanguard1917]

True. And it's exactly the same with those annoying socialists. If they want to live in their stupid communes and Kibbutzim that's okay, I honestly don't care, but who the frak are they to tell me or anyone else how to produce or how to do business???

No, socialists don't want to control the dietary choices of people. And we certainly don't want people to run off and hide inside little rural communes.

[Jazzratt]

Looking at that makes me want a fucking kebab so badly. Good grief.

Shortly after making that post I went out and got myself a doner for the first time in ages. I forgot how fucking spectacular they can be.

[Dervish]

No, socialists don't want to control the dietary choices of people. And we certainly don't want people to run off and hide inside little rural communes.

I was kidding.

Would you have any problem with my dietary choices if I ate little white Christian kidz?

Vegetarians and vegans (including myself) view meat eating as illegitimate (at least when it is not necessary for survival -- which is practically always the case, at least in western countries) and 'wrong'. You can't expect someone who views something as 'wrong' and illegitimate to be cool with other people doing it. And you probably aren't cool with people doing things you view as illegitimate, whether its owning slaves, beating wives, raping young children... There are plenty of examples.

[Pirate Utopian]

True, meat eating and rape are on the same level. :rolleyes:

[Vanguard1917]

Vegetarians and vegans (including myself) view meat eating as illegitimate

...with no rational basis whatsover. Hence:



And you probably aren't cool with people doing things you view as illegitimate, whether its owning slaves, beating wives, raping young children...

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

...with no rational basis whatsover. Hence:

Please. There are plenty of rational arguments for vegetarianism from the perspective of almost every major ethical theory.

When people introduced the idea of equal rights for minorities or women, they were met with skepticism. People produced thought experiments that were supposed to intuitively show that these rights movements were nonsense. Intuition isn't necessarily reliable. There is no evidence it is even above the effectiveness of random chance.

So yes, eating meat could be seen as similar to rape or murder. Would I say that? No. I would say the killing of animals is similarly unethical, but eating meat isn't killing the animal, specifically. It's a much lesser issue.

I don't think decisions that influence the market or other agents are as unethical as acting personally. If I bought food at cheap prices from someone I knew used slaves who they also raped, I think it's less bad than what he is doing, obviously - even though my demand fuels his industry.

Perhaps I am wrong on this and eating meat is as terrible as murder. Who knows. I have to factor in that most people think eating meat is alright. If you don't intend to do evil, I'd also say you're not as accountable.

Ethics isn't as easy as you seem to suggest it is.

[bellyscratch]

There's nothing wrong with vegetarians in and of themselves. People should be free to eat whatever they want. Problems arise only when veggies/vegans feel they have the right to dictate the lives of everyone else.

Exactly, people should be free to eat whatever they want. I don't understand why there needs to be some vegan/veggie bashing group in the disguise of a meat eating group, because some minority of vegans are a bunch of arseholes. I couldn't give a fuck who eats meat, I live with a house full of meat eaters and it doesn't bother me because we respect each others dietry choices. All I'm asking for is some respect, and not some a bunch of immature twats trying to label all veggies/vegans as some kind of ultra-militant animal rights twats.

Sorry, but i thought as leftists, we would understand the whole problem of stereotyping parts of society.

Have your meat eating group, but don't use it to slag off non-meat eaters.

[Vanguard1917]

When people introduced the idea of equal rights for minorities or women, they were met with skepticism.


Except that women are human beings who fought for and won what rights they have. A bit degrading to talk of women in the same breath as cows and pig, don't you think?

[Vanguard1917]

Exactly, people should be free to eat whatever they want. I don't understand why there needs to be some vegan/veggie bashing group in the disguise of a meat eating group, because some minority of vegans are a bunch of arseholes. I couldn't give a fuck who eats meat, I live with a house full of meat eaters and it doesn't bother me because we respect each others dietry choices. All I'm asking for is some respect, and not some a bunch of immature twats trying to label all veggies/vegans as some kind of ultra-militant animal rights twats.

And i have absolutely zero problem with your kind of non-political vegetarianism.

[Dervish]

True, meat eating and rape are on the same level. :rolleyes:
You seem to miss my point. I did not claim that meat eating and rape are 'on the same level' -- It's irrelevant -- I believe that they are both illegitimate. I also believe that owning slaves and beating wives is illegitimate -- it does not matter whether they are 'on the same level' or not -- I will not tolerate either.


...with no rational basis whatsover.That's your opinion. My point was, that you cannot expect people who view meat eating as illegitimate to 'be cool' with other people eating meat ('be cool' theoretically, at least -- it's not realistic to force anyone to stop eating meat) just as you can't expect someone who views owning slaves as illegitimate to 'be cool' with people owning slaves.

And by the way, 'with no rational basis whatsoever' was said about objection to slavery and objection to male chauvinism (not that this has implications regarding the veracity of the objection to slavery and male chauvinism).

[Vanguard1917]

And by the way, 'with no rational basis whatsoever' was said about objection to slavery and objection to male chauvinism

No it wasn't. At least not by the masses of slaves and women who rose up against slavery and patriarchy. On the contrary, no animal has ever thought their position on earth 'illegitimate'.

[Forward Union]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3642661392_5801c3b218.jpg

I'm with the dinosaur on this one.




Who describes themselves as Vegan-Curious? "I love meat but I wondered what it'd be like if I didn't have any protein oneday"

[Pogue]

Who describes themselves as Vegan-Curious?

We've all been there don't lie to yourself.

[Forward Union]

We've all been there don't lie to yourself.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4192/revleft.gif (http://img182.imageshack.us/i/revleft.gif/)

[Pogue]

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4192/revleft.gif (http://img182.imageshack.us/i/revleft.gif/)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5051/makh.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/makh.jpg/)

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Except that women are human beings who fought for and won what rights they have. A bit degrading to talk of women in the same breath as cows and pig, don't you think?

No, I don't. That's exactly why I made the point. Everyone "thinks" it's wrong, but they are really just stating their intuitive opinions. Most people can't explain why they think it's wrong. When other rights movements emerged, people had similar intuitions.

I'm comparing a similarity between how critics tend to argue against equality. It's generally on the basis of tradition or intuition. If we did X, that would mean Y, and Y is clearly wrong. Appeals to intuition aren't decent arguments in most cases - especially when talking about equality.

The feminist movement has similarities and differences to the animal rights movement. However, I think they are both dealing with the nature of equality and how far it should extend. Whenever someone wants to change the way things are, or how we think, they are always met with resistance. Resistance to change isn't an argument, though (despite what conservatives would have you believe).

If the legitimacy of animal rights is being called into question, it should be done on the basis of rational persuasion not mere appeals to intuition and collective delusion. If you get a bunch of racists together, they will make intuitive jokes about equality with respect to races. That doesn't mean anything. People claimed that giving women rights would lead to animals having rights - so they couldn't give rights to women.

[Forward Union]

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5051/makh.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/makh.jpg/)

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5026/werefromtheinternet.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/werefromtheinternet.jpg/)

[Pogue]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5026/werefromtheinternet.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/werefromtheinternet.jpg/)

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8608/lenin2.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/lenin2.jpg/)

[Forward Union]

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8608/lenin2.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/lenin2.jpg/)

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3880/makhno1eu9.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/i/makhno1eu9.jpg/)

[Pogue]

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3880/makhno1eu9.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/i/makhno1eu9.jpg/)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/527/makhno.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/makhno.jpg/)

[bcbm]

There's nothing wrong with vegetarians in and of themselves. People should be free to eat whatever they want. Problems arise only when veggies/vegans feel they have the right to dictate the lives of everyone else.

I must have missed that subtle distinction in the river of stupidity that's been flowing in this thread.

[Sam_b]

Would you have any problem with my dietary choices if I ate little white Christian kidz?

I tend to just have a problem with you.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Seems this thread is officially derailing...

[Skin_HeadBanger]

I love eating delicious animal products. Just can't get enough protein. :)

I also hunt and use every ounce of the animal that I possibly can find practical use for. ;)

As far as vegan/vegetarianism, I'll bust my friends' balls, but I in no way will try to interfere with their choices.

[TC]

It's not. I was being sarcastic, haha. It's natural to eat meat. We have been doing since the beginning of our existance. :p

we humans have been raping and torturing and murdering people too. some things that are natural are also wrong, nature justifies nothing.


Meat eater chauvinism is kind of like straight male chauvinism: you wouldn't have it if you didn't feel profoundly insecure with your lifestyle and choices.

[LOLseph Stalin]

we humans have been raping and torturing and murdering people too. some things that are natural are also wrong, nature justifies nothing.


Meat eater chauvinism is kind of like straight male chauvinism: you wouldn't have it if you didn't feel profoundly insecure with your lifestyle and choices.

You say it like eating meat is a bad thing. I like my meat. :crying:

[Vanguard1917]

The feminist movement has similarities and differences to the animal rights movement. However, I think they are both dealing with the nature of equality and how far it should extend. Whenever someone wants to change the way things are, or how we think, they are always met with resistance. Resistance to change isn't an argument, though (despite what conservatives would have you believe).

And as i pointed out, women are conscious beings who struggled for their rights and won them, something that animals never have done. So, no, there really is no similarity between the animal rights movement and the women's rights movement. The comparison is nothing but a grave insult to the latter.

[Dervish]

And as i pointed out, women are conscious beings who struggled for their rights and won them, something that animals never have done. So, no, there really is no similarity between the animal rights movement and the women's rights movement. The comparison is nothing but a grave insult to the latter.

Are you saying that if today women had not yet 'won the struggle for their rights', it would have been 'ok' to discriminate, rape, and abuse them?

That's what your argument implies (if I understand it correctly).

[Vanguard1917]

Are you saying that if today women had not yet 'won the struggle for their rights', it would have been 'ok' to discriminate, rape, and abuse them?

No, i'm saying you can't compare animals to women, for the reasons i gave.

[Dervish]

No, i'm saying you can't compare animals to women, for the reasons i gave.

So if today, women had not yet won the 'struggle for their rights', would it still be 'wrong' to discriminate, rape, or abuse them?

If your answer is positive (that it would still be 'wrong') then the fact that women did 'win the struggle for their rights' yet animals did not (it's irrelevant whether they can or not) cannot be used to morally differentiate between animals and women (unless you argue for ethics that are not universal and not independent of time [I really don't want to begin arguing about that, though]).

[Vanguard1917]

So if today, women had not yet won the 'struggle for their rights', would it still be 'wrong' to discriminate, rape, or abuse them?

Firstly, i didn't say that women have 'won the struggle for their rights' (there is still a lot of struggling to be done). I said that what rights women do have were fought for and won by them. That's not the case with animals; all their 'rights' come from us.

Secondly, the reason that it's not 'right' to discriminate against women is that they are human beings and deserve to be treated equally. Women are capable of being conscious of things like injustice and inequality, and thus demand an end to them by asserting themselves in society. Animals, on the other hand, have never made a single demand for social rights, have never organised, have never published a political pamphlet, and have never even questioned their position on earth. People have done those things for them. Animals have no awareness of things like cruelty and abuse. Those are human concepts.

[Jack]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/alicecamaro/vegan.jpg

[Pirate Utopian]

:lol: That's pretty funny actually.

[LOLseph Stalin]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/alicecamaro/vegan.jpg

Haha. I may not be Vegan, but that is still epic win! :lol:

[Skin_HeadBanger]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/alicecamaro/vegan.jpg

are you suggesting that we make pigs become extinct by eating all of them so that they don't kill us?

[TC]

Is it wrong to torture puppies for personal entertainment? Really cute ones? Even if its really fun and enjoyable to do so?

If it is, and if as an empirical question a vegan diet is in fact nutritionally sustainable, what logic requires the 'no puppy kicking for fun' rule but permits the 'eating animals for fun' rule?

Would you think puppy kickers are...somehow less decent people?

Try to answer honestly and consider what you really think instead of just offering debating points like an annoying debate club highschool student please.

[Revy]

TC, that is a question they will never be able to answer. It defies their own misapplied standards of morality. They can only defeat the question by accepting its truth. That cats and dogs objectively are not any more superior in intelligence or emotions than farm animals, and the only reason a gap in empathy exists is because cats and dogs are cute and cuddly. the end.

[Module]

People don't like seeing animals suffer because we have seemingly a surplus of empathy which makes us consider animals (and the occasional stuffed toy) to be as mentally complex as we are.
Dogs and cats we grow up to see as participants in the human world, so we humanise them to a greater extent. For one reason or another we're protective over such animals, perhaps because we would feel guilty about abusing the trust they have for human beings? <- Let's hope that doesn't just sound like an annoying debating point!
I would certainly feel guilty about that.
Regardless of the reasons for it, however, making anything suffer for your own pleasure shows a dangerous lack of empathy. The intention to cause pain for one's own pleasure is the troubling part. Causing pain in others should not be a valid way for 'decent people' to have fun or relieve stress, and given that we do automatically 'humanise' animals to a degree (I have never knowingly met anybody who didn't) somebody kicking puppies for fun is cause for concern!

[TC]

People don't like seeing animals suffer because we have seemingly a surplus of empathy which makes us consider animals (and the occasional stuffed toy) to be as mentally complex as we are.
I don't think most people consider all humans (certainly not, babies, toddlers, developmentally disordered, geriatrics, etc) to be as mentally complex as 'us' (or, at least as me and you and the 'we' that includes people asking these questions)

I don't think equal mental complexity has anything to do with it; the issue isn't intelligence or deliberation (as it is when it comes to certain other issues...but the existence of a mental experience of the world, of ones body, of pleasure or pain.



Dogs and cats we grow up to see as participants in the human world, so we humanise them to a greater extent.

I think you're totally right, but this is essentially the same reason why nationalists care more about people of their own nation then those outside it...


Regardless of the reasons for it, however, making anything suffer for your own pleasure shows a dangerous lack of empathy. The intention to cause pain for one's own pleasure is the troubling part. Causing pain in others should not be a valid way for 'decent people' to have fun or relieve stress, and given that we do automatically 'humanise' animals to a degree (I have never knowingly met anybody who didn't) somebody kicking puppies for fun is cause for concern!

Killing a puppy to eat it and enjoy eating it when you could be eating a tofu-puppy-bit instead but you're eating the real puppy for its (presumably) superior taste would be making something suffer for pleasure as well though...it would just be pleasure through tastebuds rather than pleasure through the visual stimuli involved in puppy kicking

[Module]

But we don't eat meat and enjoy it because the animal it came from suffered. We just eat it for, as you said, its superior taste. That's different from kicking a puppy and enjoying it specifically because the puppy is suffering.
We don't see the fact pigs suffer and die as something that makes eating pork more enjoyable. In fact, a lot of people feel quite guilty about the quality of life of the animals farmed for our food. That's why so many people buy free range eggs, after all.
In regards to not considering human beings to all be as mentally complex as one another, that's an interesting point to bring up. Personally, when I think about it, I feel less affectionate towards babies than I do towards, say, really cute puppies. I'm not sure what exactly that says about me as a person :p but no doubt that would be different if it were, god forbid, my own, though, or if I 'got to know' one.
I didn't mean that we consider animals to be as mentally complex as humans, though, but just ourselves. We don't consider other animals to be members of the human race, therefore 'potentially' our equals, but creatures without means to express human personalities themselves, so we give one to them, and one that we can relate to. You're right though, I don't rationally and consciously consider dogs and cats to be as mentally complex as myself, but I do tend to give them personalities that they can't possibly possess. I could never imagine a toddler having complicated emotions but I would let my cat into my room because I thought it would feel "betrayed" if I didn't.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Would you think puppy kickers are...somehow less decent people?

Yes. Because the sort of person who kicks puppies is the sort of person who would kick people if they could get away with it. Most people eat bacon because it tastes nice, not because they like torturing little piggies.

[ls]

Is it wrong to torture puppies for personal entertainment? Really cute ones? Even if its really fun and enjoyable to do so?

Yep because many other people and I just like puppies.


If it is, and if as an empirical question a vegan diet is in fact nutritionally sustainable, what logic requires the 'no puppy kicking for fun' rule but permits the 'eating animals for fun' rule?

Pigs tastes nice and don't usually give people the same warm feeling from interaction with them that dogs do. They just don't.


Would you think puppy kickers are...somehow less decent people?

Yep yep.

[marxistcritic]

Listen, if you don't eat meat, then you might as well cut your own tongue out. Besides, a human is just a realy smart type of animal, and animals eat each other.

[Sam_b]

Listen, if you don't eat meat, then you might as well cut your own tongue out

Moron.

[politics student]

Yes. Because the sort of person who kicks puppies is the sort of person who would kick people if they could get away with it. Most people eat bacon because it tastes nice, not because they like torturing little piggies.

Yep. I generally find vegans trying to push their lifestyle offensive. There are far more pressing concerns than eating meat... Still I find it entertaining if we did not breed our animals for food, most of these specifically breed species will die out. They are not like cats and dogs being easy to keep as pets.

I rather enjoyed this sketch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdcrEo1eCBY

[Charles Xavier]

Vegans have a nice way of degrading women to nothing more than cows. And consider beating a woman the same as eating a hotdog.

[bellyscratch]

Vegans have a nice way of degrading women to nothing more than cows. And consider beating a woman the same as eating a hotdog.

Thats a massive generalisation. Not all vegans compare artificial insemination of cows to raping women. There are some stupid people who do this and happen to vegan. Stop just lumping all vegans and vegetarians together as some over the top animal liberation freaks.

As I said before, I thought lefties would see the problems of stereotyping people...

[NecroCommie]

I have had great plans to ge vegetarian. But yay! A vile hinderance has foiled my plans! For this poor soul resides within a lair of numerous meat-eaters, and with the limited pay of mine 'tis more or less "challenging" to economically support these noble goals. But one day I will be economically independent, and then I shall switch camps, aye.

[An archist]

Vegans have a nice way of degrading women to nothing more than cows. And consider beating a woman the same as eating a hotdog.
Yes indeed, you are completely right.

[politics student]

Yes indeed, you are completely right.

I find it disturbing when you see groups such as peta comparing images of farming to the holocaust. Is human life valued so little to them?

[NecroCommie]

It's not that they value humans little, but they value animals alot. I kinda sympathize with them.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I find it disturbing when you see groups such as peta comparing images of farming to the holocaust. Is human life valued so little to them?

Exactly one of the reasons I despise PETA. It's just sickening that they would compare farming to the holocaust or use the news story of a decapitation on a bus in their ad campaigns.

[khad]

Exactly one of the reasons I despise PETA. It's just sickening that they would compare farming to the holocaust or use the news story of a decapitation on a bus in their ad campaigns.

PETA is an animal holocaust.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/3line/PETAstats.png

They even do it right in a fucking van like the Nazis.


PETA was criticized in 2005 when police discovered that over the course of a month, at least 80 animals had been euthanized and left in area dumpsters. Two PETA employees were seen approaching a dumpster in a van registered to PETA and leaving behind 18 dead animals; 13 more were found inside the van. The animals had been euthanized by the PETA employees immediately after taking them from shelters in Northampton and Bertie counties.[58] The group said it began euthanizing animals in some rural North Carolina shelters after it found the shelters were killing animals in ways PETA considered inhumane.[59] Police charged the two employees with 31 felony counts of animal cruelty and eight misdemeanor counts of illegal disposal of dead animals.[60] They were acquitted in April 2008.[61]

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/NAZI%20GAS%20VANS.htm

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Pictures/gv5.png

[LOLseph Stalin]

^ Proof that PETA is a bunch of hypocrites then.

[bcbm]

Pigs tastes nice and don't usually give people the same warm feeling from interaction with them that dogs do. They just don't.

Is it only wrong to torture dogs because they give you warm feelings?

[Charles Xavier]

blank

[Pogue]

Eating animals is a selfish decision. It puts your pleasure over another animals life/comfort. My opinion is that most meat eaters simply choose not to recognise this, probably something to do with cultural hegemony too.

[Vanguard1917]

Animals have no value in themselves; their only worth is that to human beings, to be utilised by us, whether for food, clothing and travel (the latter now largely defunct, of course, or at least should be) or research, study, entertainment and companionship (e.g. going for a walk in the park with a pet dog).

In that sense, yes, it is 'selfish' (i.e. an example of people putting themselves before animals) to eat meat, and there is nothing wrong or unreasonable about that. In fact, it's perfectly rational and human.

[NecroCommie]

Why we talking about torturing animals? I just want to eat them not anything else.
One might argue that eating humans is torturing. Others then needs to provide sufficent proof to point out the differences within the animal and human psyche to validate such sentences. Besides, if you dont place some special consitions for your meat eating, you might just support some very disturbing forms of execution and slaughter. For example, the vietnamese are known to sometimes beat their smaller food animals to death. They claim the adrenaline adds to the crispy taste... :( Also there was a scandal here a year ago because some Australian lamb farms were revealed to use... questionable methods in their slaughter.

And my reasons for (future) vegetarianism are not moral, but economic. The economic advantages of non-animal food are unquestionable, and a proven scientific fact. One should prepare carefully to debate this with me.

[Killfacer]

Animals have no value in themselves; their only worth is that to human beings, to be utilised by us, whether for food, clothing and travel (the latter now largely defunct, of course, or at least should be) or research, study, entertainment and companionship (e.g. going for a walk in the park with a pet dog).

In that sense, yes, it is 'selfish' (i.e. an example of people putting themselves before animals) to eat meat, and there is nothing wrong or unreasonable about that. In fact, it's perfectly rational and human.

Selfish is a negative trate, attempting to paint it at simply "human nature" is a fucking pathetic get out clause.

[Jazzratt]

Selfish is a negative trate, attempting to paint it at simply "human nature" is a fucking pathetic get out clause.

Selfishness is not an a priori negative trait, nothing is. Selfishness is bad because it often disadvantages people but, if you argue from a position that people and animals are not morally equivelent entities then selfishness that only affects people is not negative.

Arguing that anything is "human nature", though, is moronic.

[Vanguard1917]

Selfish is a negative trate

If putting humans before animals is a 'negative trait', what about, to give perhaps an extreme example, shooting dead a starving bear that's about to eat you and your family? That's a 'selfish' act (preventing the bear from eating by killing it to save the lives of humans). Is it not justified? Should you have been 'selfless' and let the bear feed?

[Charles Xavier]

If we didn't eat pigs, cows and chickens they would go extinct. They would starve and die out. We are prolonging the life of an animal survival. And we have teeth designed to consume flesh. We need protein to live and not every part of the planet naturally grows lentils and beans. If you do not consume meat you are at a dietary disadvantage to the majority of the population and it requires more expenses to meet the requirements to have a healthy vegan lifestyle.

I mean if I didn't have milk I would be having to eat a shit load of beans and soy, and they have a lot of estrogen and are quite expensive.

[Killfacer]

If we didn't eat pigs, cows and chickens they would go extinct. They would starve and die out. We are prolonging the life of an animal survival. And we have teeth designed to consume flesh. We need protein to live and not every part of the planet naturally grows lentils and beans. If you do not consume meat you are at a dietary disadvantage to the majority of the population and it requires more expenses to meet the requirements to have a healthy vegan lifestyle.

I mean if I didn't have milk I would be having to eat a shit load of beans and soy, and they have a lot of estrogen and are quite expensive.

Oh so now you're claiming you eat pigs for their sake? That's even worse than the lame claimes of human nature. I have no problem with drinking milk so i don't know where that came from. I was simply pointing out how bloody ridiculous some of these arguments are.

[Jazzratt]

If you do not consume meat you are at a dietary disadvantage to the majority of the population and it requires more expenses to meet the requirements to have a healthy vegan lifestyle.

Quite possibly for vegans, but a lot of balanced vegetarian diets are considerably cheaper (vegetable protiens appear in things like pulses and beans which are quite cheap in comparison to meat).


I mean if I didn't have milk I would be having to eat a shit load of beans and soy, and they have a lot of estrogen and are quite expensive.

LOLWUT?


Oh so now you're claiming you eat pigs for their sake? That's even worse than the lame claimes of human nature. I have no problem with drinking milk so i don't know where that came from. I was simply pointing out how bloody ridiculous some of these arguments are.

In fairness to that point, eating pork obviously does little good for the individual pig but the species itself is kept highly populus because humans have a use for them (bacon). If we switched to an entirely herbivorous diet (something I would describe as "a fucking nightmare") then we would displace our food animals in order to grow more crops. Sheep, however, would probably still be fine.

[Charles Xavier]

Quite possibly for vegans, but a lot of balanced vegetarian diets are considerably cheaper (vegetable protiens appear in things like pulses and beans which are quite cheap in comparison to meat).



LOLWUT?




The core of their concerns rests with the chemical makeup of soy: in addition to all the nutrients and protein, soy contains a natural chemical that mimics estrogen, the female hormone. Some studies in animals show that this chemical can alter sexual development. And in fact, 2 glasses of soy milk/day, over the course of one month, contain enough of the chemical to change the timing of a woman’s menstrual cycle.

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

[hugsandmarxism]

Eating animals is a selfish decision. It puts your pleasure over another animals life/comfort. My opinion is that most meat eaters simply choose not to recognise this, probably something to do with cultural hegemony too.

Only a liberal twit would climb on a soap-box about what I put in my lunch-box. :rolleyes:

[Killfacer]

If putting humans before animals is a 'negative trait', what about, to give perhaps an extreme example, shooting dead a starving bear that's about to eat you and your family? That's a 'selfish' act (preventing the bear from eating by killing it to save the lives of humans). Is it not justified? Should you have been 'selfless' and let the bear feed?

I put humans ahead of animals so no, i wouldn't have a problem with that.

[NecroCommie]

If we didn't eat pigs, cows and chickens they would go extinct.
If your argument is that we would shake the balance of nature and populations, we are a bit late. If you on the other hand honestly want the animals to "survive" in conditions of imprisonment, I'd say you're a weirdo. That is atleast with the current conditions of imprisonment being what they are. Industrial animal handling would have to increase dramatically for me to accept it.

Although I accept the fact that this is more or less a matter of preferance and personal oppinion.


And we have teeth designed to consume flesh.
We have much more teeth designed to consume plants. Human species evolved to omnivorous to increase our range of choice when it comes to food. Now that food is no longer scarce we should exploit that genetic strength.


We need protein to live and not every part of the planet naturally grows lentils and beans.
That's where modern technology and trade comes in. Even today most areas would starve to death pretty quickly if it were not for global trade. (and due to capitalism many areas actually do, but thats another topic.

it requires more expenses to meet the requirements to have a healthy vegan lifestyle.
For an individual, perhaps. For the society, quite the opposite. Other than meat production (foraging, farming, milking etc...) is dramatically cheaper than meat production in terms of money, time and effort. So much actually, that the economic advantages easily outmatch the petty effort we must place to secure the quality of nutrition.


...and they have a lot of estrogen...
I know... :cool: All human women will become outrageously horny...
...
...
And I will become more womanly. 'hangs head in defeat'

[Charles Xavier]

The reason why humans are the dominate specie on this planet is because we are the least specialized. We can do everything, we are adaptable to the various temperatures, climates, we can consume a wide variety of foods. We aren't made for any one part of the world and we can rely on all the indigenous species for survival. We can live days without food. It wasn't until we learned to cook flesh our brains developed at the rapid pace. Cooked flesh was pure energy for the brain to developed. Our body did not have to process out the bacteria or other problems that raw flesh had. It was a pure source of nutrients. We are designed to consume flesh, if we weren't we wouldn't have the intellect we have now. Sure you can have a pure vegetable diet, but its not natural and most vegetarians I know are very weak and spacey as it requires a lot more effort to maintain a proper diet. Its a luxury of the first world to be vegetarian/vegan. A luxury I do not understand as it limits what you can consume, and enjoyment of some of the few riches in life. And Don't get me wrong there is some vegetarian cuisine that is delicious, but beef with the broccoli please.

[Pogue]

Eating meat is selfish.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Eating meat is selfish.

I must be selfish then because I eat meat... :rolleyes:

[NecroCommie]

The reason why humans are the dominate specie on this planet is because we are the least specialized. We can do everything, we are adaptable to the various temperatures, climates, we can consume a wide variety of foods. We aren't made for any one part of the world and we can rely on all the indigenous species for survival. We can live days without food. It wasn't until we learned to cook flesh our brains developed at the rapid pace. Cooked flesh was pure energy for the brain to developed. Our body did not have to process out the bacteria or other problems that raw flesh had. It was a pure source of nutrients. We are designed to consume flesh, if we weren't we wouldn't have the intellect we have now. Sure you can have a pure vegetable diet, but its not natural and most vegetarians I know are very weak and spacey as it requires a lot more effort to maintain a proper diet. Its a luxury of the first world to be vegetarian/vegan. A luxury I do not understand as it limits what you can consume, and enjoyment of some of the few riches in life. And Don't get me wrong there is some vegetarian cuisine that is delicious, but beef with the broccoli please.
Meat was good for the human species during its history, aye. However, with food being abundant (lack of food is regional and mostly due to capitalism) we can replace the gap meat leaves with a little effort by trading and breeding plants that contain the needed nutrients.

Besides, the first world citizen vastly over-consumes the required meat for a week. We in the first world eat meat on almost every lunch and dinner, while for the effects you mentioned only a one big lunch of meat is required weekly. There are ofcourse individual anomalies, this was an average given to me from my health teacher in school. (yes we had health as a subject)

[Pogue]

I must be selfish then because I eat meat... :rolleyes:

In your choice to eat meat your being selfish, yes.

[marxistcritic]

[QUOTE=Sam_b;1493440]Moron.[/QUOTE=Sam_b;1493440]
I was forced to be a vegan by my mother[who also tried to forcibly convert me to catholicism] till I was 8. I was so desperate for meat that I started attempting to catch and eat live pidgeons.

[NecroCommie]

This thread has become rather... "unchit-chatty". Any point in a request to move it somewhere else?

[Brother No. 1]

In your choice to eat meat your being selfish, yes.


Great logic in that statemet.:rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Great logic in that statemet.:rolleyes:

There is. By eating meat your placing your personal pleasure over an animal's life, which is selfish. Its quite simple.

[LOLseph Stalin]

There is. By eating meat your placing your personal pleasure over an animal's life, which is selfish. Its quite simple.

I'm fine with your decision to be vegan and I respect your beliefs, but trying to force it onto others isn't cool. You're almost as bad as those Christian missionaries who go around trying to force their beliefs on people.

[Pogue]

I'm fine with your decision to be vegan and I respect your beliefs, but trying to force it onto others isn't cool. You're almost as bad as those Christian missionaries who go around trying to force their beliefs on people.

Forcing someone to do it implies coersion. I'm not doing that, I'm simply stating the fact that eating meat is a selfish decision (unless you have no choice, but very few people have no choice).

I don't go around forcing my views on people. But we're talking about it here so I'll voice my opinion again: Eating meat is a selfish decision.

[Brother No. 1]

By eating meat your placing your personal pleasure over an animal's life, which is selfish.

You sure I'm placing my pleasure or my hunger? So if a Leftist eats meat he/she is selfish because he placed his/her own "pleasure" over an animals life that has already been dead. Now also whats wrong with liking the taste of meat? Is it somehow morally wrong? If you eat meat you can't like it becuase if you do life it you'd be "Selfish."

[hugsandmarxism]

There is. By eating meat your placing your personal pleasure over an animal's life, which is selfish. Its quite simple.

First of all, this cannot be said to apply in all circumstances. Second of all, like I give a fuck. Human happiness for me outweighs animal happiness. You can spew at the mouth with all of your moralist phraseology, like some reverend ranting against "the evils of fornication," but human beings (for those of us who prioritize them above animals) will collectively tell you to shove it.

Now, if you made an argument that raising cattle is more costly and harmful to the environment, that we can feed more people if we have less cows, or something a little more person centered, I might have more respect for your argument. But currently, I think you're being a silly liberal who wants to ***** and moan about trivial bullshit. You want to convince me? Talk about the human impact of my meat eating ways. Otherwise, I'm going to get myself a nice piece of chicken.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Poultry/PoultryPhotos/ChickenCooked5.jpg

Mmmm.... I don't know about you guys, but I could see myself eating the whole thing right about now! :drool:

[LOLseph Stalin]

Forcing someone to do it implies coersion. I'm not doing that, I'm simply stating the fact that eating meat is a selfish decision (unless you have no choice, but very few people have no choice).

I don't go around forcing my views on people. But we're talking about it here so I'll voice my opinion again: Eating meat is a selfish decision.

Ok, maybe you're not forcing your beliefs onto people, but I still don't like being called selfish simply because I choose to eat meat. I almost take that as an insult. Besides, many animals that are raised for human consumption aren't abused. It's the ones that are, that I'm NOT ok with.

[Pogue]

First of all, this cannot be said to apply in all circumstances. Second of all, like I give a fuck. Human happiness for me outweighs animal happiness. You can spew at the mouth with all of your moralist phraseology, like some reverend ranting against "the evils of fornication," but human beings (for those of us who prioritize them above animals) will collectively tell you to shove it.

Now, if you made an argument that raising cattle is more costly and harmful to the environment, that we can feed more people if we have less cows, or something a little more person centered, I might have more respect for your argument. But currently, I think you're being a silly liberal who wants to ***** and moan about trivial bullshit. You want to convince me? Talk about the human impact of my meat eating ways. Otherwise, I'm going to get myself a nice piece of chicken.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Poultry/PoultryPhotos/ChickenCooked5.jpg

Mmmm.... I don't know about you guys, but I could see myself eating the whole thing right about now! :drool:

This is what I've mentioned before. I think its interesting that most of the arguments I get into with meat eaters eventually boil down to them just saying they really like eating meat before going off on one about how tasty that is. I think just hilights how little defence they actually have for their selfish and inhumane arguments.

[Pogue]

Ok, maybe you're not forcing your beliefs onto people, but I still don't like being called selfish simply because I choose to eat meat. I almost take that as an insult. Besides, many animals that are raised for human consumption aren't abused. It's the ones that are, that I'm NOT ok with.

You might not like being called it but you are being selfish. Its up to you to live with this. Some meat eaters just don't think about it, some don't care, but to me it just hilights further how I am right because they simply achknowledge they are wrong and have no other defence than 'I like it', a typical selfish response.

[LOLseph Stalin]

You might not like being called it but you are being selfish. Its up to you to live with this. Some meat eaters just don't think about it, some don't care, but to me it just hilights further how I am right because they simply achknowledge they are wrong and have no other defence than 'I like it', a typical selfish response.

Like I said, eating meat is as much a personal choice as being vegan is.

[Brother No. 1]

Originally Posted by Pogue
I think just hilights how little defence they actually have for their selfish and inhumane arguments.

Ok then please, by all means of this argument, show proof that I am selfish for eating meat. I know there are people at abuse the right to eat anything but to generalize it on all people who eat meat is like if a someone was secertarian and thus I'd generalize it on all memebers of that ideology. Now lets take for example "inhumane." Was it "inhumane" for our presdessors to eat meat? Even though it helped their brain advance? So if you eat a plant its fine if I eat steak its "inhumane" by vegan matters. Is eating protein wrong? lets take for example the words of "right" and "wrong." you view its "wrong" to eat meat becuase someone "has" placed their own pleasure over the life of another being. I view to claim all meat eaters are selfish is "wrong" becuase how do you know if we place this "pleasure, which you havent really proven just stated, over the beings life, though it should be stated that the animal is already dead, when it could be that we are hungry or we hunger for food. What should we eat all that you view is "right" simply becuase you view its "wrongful" that meat should be eaten. Is it somehow "wrong" to like the food you eat? wether meat,plant,bread,etc?



You might not like being called it but you are being selfish.

I love how you keep stating this but show no proof on how people are being Selfish.


but to me it just hilights further how I am right

already stating that your "right?" But really how can you be right? This is your oppion. And it will remian, as always, an oppion. Just like its my oppion that does it matter if we eat meat or bread.



because they simply achknowledge they are wrong

one Question: When?

[Pogue]

Like I said, eating meat is as much a personal choice as being vegan is.

No, because its a selfish choice which impacts upon the decisions of other living beings.

[LOLseph Stalin]

No, because its a selfish choice which impacts upon the decisions of other living beings.

Eating plants impacts the life of another living thing. Going by that ideology we might as well eat nothing and starve.

[Pogue]

Ok then please, by all means of this argument, show proof that I am selfish for eating meat. I know there are people at abuse the right to eat anything but to generalize it on all people who eat meat is like if a someone was secertarian and thus I'd generalize it on all memebers of that ideology. Now lets take for example "inhumane." Was it "inhumane" for our presdessors to eat meat? Even though it helped their brain advance? So if you eat a plant its fine if I eat steak its "inhumane" by vegan matters. Is eating protein wrong? lets take for example the words of "right" and "wrong." you view its "wrong" to eat meat becuase someone "has" placed their own pleasure over the life of another being. I view to claim all meat eaters are selfish is "wrong" becuase how do you know if we place this "pleasure, which you havent really proven just stated, over the beings life, though it should be stated that the animal is already dead, when it could be that we are hungry or we hunger for food. What should we eat all that you view is "right" simply becuase you view its "wrongful" that meat should be eaten. Is it somehow "wrong" to like the food you eat? wether meat,plant,bread,etc?

I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about now. Its selfish because you place your desire to have the taste of meat in your mouth and the sensation of eating it over the life of an animal. Your placing your enjoyment over another animals right not too be killed and eaten. Thus its selfish. The point is, meat eaters either don't think about it that way (I didn't, but when I did I became a vegetarian).

The argument that the animal is dead doesn't really stand. Your buying meat, your essentially paying someone for the service of killing it for you. So your still respondible for its death, but like most meat eaters your too much of a coward to kill it yourself because you'd rather be detached from this barbaric act.

And yes, its inhumane, in the sense that its cruel and below the moral standards of a rational human being and I think people degrade themselves by eating it.

[Brother No. 1]

because its a selfish choice which impacts upon the decisions of other living beings.

So if I eat a Plant its Selfish. If I eat a tree its Selfish. If I eat anything that is/once living its selfish.


Its selfish because you place your desire to have the taste of meat in your mouth and the sensation of eating it over the life of an animal. Your placing your enjoyment over another animals right not too be killed and eaten.

So if I desire the tatse of plant its selfish becuase I "Enjoy" the tatse of leaves in my mouth. That and its another living being, as you stated above, and really like I said if it is "wrong" to enjoy food then why do you eat? We tatse and we eat as all other animals do. Is a wolf selfish for desireing the tatse of rabbit in its mouth? But heres another thing if we can not eat meat becuase we "enjoy it" then how do you know we enjoy it and not just eat for hunger. Are you going to say its also wrong to hunger for things?


Thus its selfish.

Thus if you eat any livin being, your logic, it is Selfish.



The argument that the animal is dead doesn't really stand.

Yet when I go to a store on the meat ile the meat is there. Dead. Once living,etc. I can use more words that ahve the same meaning.



Your buying meat, your essentially paying someone for the service of killing it for you

the Cow is dead, the pig is dead, unless you think that a body without a plus means "alive." And, since your logic says so, if I pay for a sandwich with a dead plant in it I am playing someone to kill it even though its alright dead.




So your still respondible for its death

So now millions apon millions of people are murders. But this also means your a murder for eating plants and placing the desire for leaves in your mouth since it is a living being. You eat a tree its the same thing.



but like most meat eaters your too much of a coward to kill it yourself because you'd rather be detached from this barbaric act.

Or for the, obvious fac that you and your logic cant realize , is that we live in a city. But do you know I'm a coward? Do you know other people are cowards? do you have visable proof? Do you have logical proof? But in any case , since I'm "Barbaric", that eating meat, to you, is very "morally wrong." Yes some people abuse the useage of food but not all. Unless you want me to generalize about you.


And yes, its inhumane, in the sense that its cruel and below the moral standards of a rational human being and I think people degrade themselves by eating it.
so what do you want us to eat? Plants? No that'd be morally wrong since we cant eat living beings. Then what do we eat? rocks?

[hugsandmarxism]

This is what I've mentioned before. I think its interesting that most of the arguments I get into with meat eaters eventually boil down to them just saying they really like eating meat before going off on one about how tasty that is. I think just hilights how little defence they actually have for their selfish and inhumane arguments.

Look, unless you make a better argument (like, about the human cost of our meat consumption) you're going to get the finger from anyone who isn't entangled into your "politics of animal defense." I personally have higher priorities than worrying about the poor creature that died to satiate my hunger. I recently went to a homeless shelter and fed people (my mother's been an avid church goer as of late, and I decided to go along with her to help out and gain a feel for the human cost of capitalist decadence as it exists in my country). Some poor pigs were murdered brutally to supply the Italian sausage baked into the Shepard's pie we brought. Now, which is the higher priority, these people eating for the night, or a few less pigs going to the slaughter? Should be obvious.

Now, if your argument is something like "meat production wastes resources and ruins the environment while making corporations wealthy" then people here would tend to agree more. Infact, once capitalism has been taken to the woodshed and societies resources are put to their proper use (supporting people, not wealth) then it may become necessary (and quite doable) to reduce meat production for the purpose of feeding more people with the currently available resources. Would I give up meat if it meant that more people would be able to eat as a result? YES! Will I do it because some whiny **** on the internet frowned on the immorality of my eating meat? NO!

So shove the moralism and give me the human factor. Then I'll listen.

[Pogue]

So if I eat a Plant its Selfish. If I eat a tree its Selfish. If I eat anything that is/once living its selfish.

No, because plants and 'trees' (you eat trees?) do not experience emotions such as fear, pleasure and pain. They are not conciouss beings.

[Pogue]

Eating plants impacts the life of another living thing. Going by that ideology we might as well eat nothing and starve.

When I say beings I mean creatures, i.e. fish through to mammalls. I exclude plants, vegetables etc.

[Pogue]

Look, unless you make a better argument (like, about the human cost of our meat consumption) you're going to get the finger from anyone who isn't entangled into your "politics of animal defense." I personally have higher priorities than worrying about the poor creature that died to satiate my hunger. I recently went to a homeless shelter and fed people (my mother's been an avid church goer as of late, and I decided to go along with her to help out and gain a feel for the human cost of capitalist decadence as it exists in my country). Some poor pigs were murdered brutally to supply the Italian sausage baked into the Shepard's pie we brought. Now, which is the higher priority, these people eating for the night, or a few less pigs going to the slaughter? Should be obvious.

Now, if your argument is something like "meat production wastes resources and ruins the environment while making corporations wealthy" then people here would tend to agree more. Infact, once capitalism has been taken to the woodshed and societies resources are put to their proper use (supporting people, not wealth) then it may become necessary (and quite doable) to reduce meat production for the purpose of feeding more people with the currently available resources. Would I give up meat if it meant that more people would be able to eat as a result? YES! Will I do it because some whiny **** on the internet frowned on the immorality of my eating meat? NO!

So shove the moralism and give me the human factor. Then I'll listen.

I'm not really interesting in fitting what you see as acceptable arguments. I'll leave the environmental/human factors for a later date, or when I've read up on them more.

Heartwarming story about the homeless shelter, your a true class warrior. I don't think homeless people eating the food they were given is selfish because they can't excactly be picky in their desperate situation. But when you have a choice, like I'd say nearly everyone on this forum has, and you pick meat, your being selfish. I don't care if you see that as being an argument you object too, because I expect that. I see you as a typical meat eater who cannot justify their behaviour and so resorts to name calling and the posting of pictures of meat and going MMM SO NICE. I've seen it before.

[Jazzratt]

Selfish, selfish, selfish.


Selfishness is not an a priori negative trait, nothing is. Selfishness is bad because it often disadvantages people but, if you argue from a position that people and animals are not morally equivelent entities then selfishness that only affects people is not negative.

So, for your argument to be a reason that eating meat is wrong you have to prove that selfishness is unequivicobaly wrong and that humans share an equivelence with animals strong enough that being selfish in a way that disadvantages them is bad.

Before you start on it, no I've not gone all Rand and declared greed and selfishness to be good. It's just that I'm not sure what makes it bad in this context.

[Pogue]

So, for your argument to be a reason that eating meat is wrong you have to prove that selfishness is unequivicobaly wrong and that humans share an equivelence with animals strong enough that being selfish in a way that disadvantages them is bad.

Before you start on it, no I've not gone all Rand and declared greed and selfishness to be good. It's just that I'm not sure what makes it bad in this context.

I don't see it as being a strong philosophical point of conjecture. I think if I have a choice between putting an animal through the suffering of it being killed or choosing not to do this, and I decide to do it based not on need but on want, I am making a selfish choice, an unjust one, and inhumane one. Thats why I'm a vegetarian.

[hugsandmarxism]

I'm not really interesting in fitting what you see as acceptable arguments. I'll leave the environmental/human factors for a later date, or when I've read up on them more.

Translation: I don't have a human centered argument. I just think piggies and cows are cute, and it makes me hurt inside when mean old humans murder them and eat their flesh.


Heartwarming story about the homeless shelter, your a true class warrior.

Translation: Charity work? Look who you're calling a liberal! Goddamn Stalinists with your posturing!


I don't think homeless people eating the food they were given is selfish because they can't excactly be picky in their desperate situation. But when you have a choice, like I'd say nearly everyone on this forum has, and you pick meat, your being selfish.

Cry me a river. I'm an evil, selfish Stalinist who feasts on the corpses of the innocent animals of the world. I don't give a fuck what the proletariat wants to eat (as long as it's not other proletarians, then we have a problem).


I don't care if you see that as being an argument you object too, because I expect that. I see you as a typical meat eater who cannot justify their behaviour and so resorts to name calling and the posting of pictures of meat and going MMM SO NICE. I've seen it before.

Please... this thread, and the people posting pictures of meat and going "mmmm! tasty!" is more in protest to the pedantic ravings of you vegans who rave on in a moralistic tone and call us "selfish" for eating meat. I have more important things to worry about than that (the whole defeat of capitalism and establishment of communism thing). So, how about doing that reading up you mentioned you needed to do (one good book is Vandanna Shiva's Soil not Oil, which touches on this, and other topics). People might listen to what you have to say if you do.

[Jazzratt]

I don't see it as being a strong philosophical point of conjecture. I think if I have a choice between putting an animal through the suffering of it being killed or choosing not to do this, and I decide to do it based not on need but on want, I am making a selfish choice, an unjust one, and inhumane one. Thats why I'm a vegetarian.

I can understand your reasoning for it being selfish but "unjust" and "inhumane" are new ones on me. I don't see the utility in treating animals in a just fashion or to extend huge amounts of humanity to them. Even so, I will accept the labels unjust, inhimane and selfish and feel vindicated because I interact with othwer human beings in (what I hope) is a just, humane and unselfish manner.

I mean I LUFFZ DA BACONZ.

[Pogue]

Translation: I don't have a human centered argument. I just think piggies and cows are cute, and it makes me hurt inside when mean old humans murder them and eat their flesh.

I don't think I ever said that. I think my argument is human centered to an extent as it deals with selfish choices of some humans. Either way, I don't think arguments are judged by how 'human centered' they are.



Translation: Charity work? Look who you're calling a liberal! Goddamn Stalinists with your posturing


I don't understand what your saying here. I didn't call anyone a liberal. I think perhaps your saying something here that only makes sense to yourself, like an in joke.


Cry me a river. I'm an evil, selfish Stalinist who feasts on the corpses of the innocent animals of the world. I don't give a fuck what the proletariat wants to eat (as long as it's not other proletarians, then we have a problem).

Once more, your argument becomes 'I don't care', which isn't really an argument at all. I think this demonstrates the inherent weakness of the meat eating 'argument', i.e. that its based on selfish compulsions.



Please... this thread, and the people posting pictures of meat and going "mmmm! tasty!" is more in protest to the pedantic ravings of you vegans who rave on in a moralistic tone and call us "selfish" for eating meat. I have more important things to worry about than that (the whole defeat of capitalism and establishment of communism thing). So, how about doing that reading up you mentioned you needed to do (one good book is Vandanna Shiva's Soil not Oil, which touches on this, and other topics). People might listen to what you have to say if you do.


I don't think the issue is that I'm being 'pedantic' or moralistic, I just think the issue is that meat eating is an indefensable position, which like most barbaric customs, will eventually disappear, once people fall under the weight of their own inadequat justifications. I think the fact that this argument (anti vegetarianism) is so weak is why you tend to resort to just getting angry.

[Pogue]

I can understand your reasoning for it being selfish but "unjust" and "inhumane" are new ones on me. I don't see the utility in treating animals in a just fashion or to extend huge amounts of humanity to them. Even so, I will accept the labels unjust, inhimane and selfish and feel vindicated because I interact with othwer human beings in (what I hope) is a just, humane and unselfish manner.

I mean I LUFFZ DA BACONZ.

Haha. If I remember we once had a massive falling out over this argument.

I think the inhumane and unjust elements go hand in hand with recognising its selfish.

[Jazzratt]

Haha. If I remember we once had a massive falling out over this argument.

Oh yes. You refused to reply because I said you were a self righteous **** or something. Best not dig that up too much...:lol:


I think the inhumane and unjust elements go hand in hand with recognising its selfish.

Right. So it still falls to you to prove the selfishness of this act is wrong.

I can see this argument going in circles.

[Pogue]

Oh yes. You refused to reply because I said you were a self righteous **** or something. Best not dig that up too much...:lol:



Right. So it still falls to you to prove the selfishness of this act is wrong.

I can see this argument going in circles.

Well I don't know what you mean by prove. I think its sort of speaks for itself that its 'more wrong' to kill an animal than it is to not kill an animal. If you have a value system of not inflicting unnecesary suffering that is.

[hugsandmarxism]

I don't think I ever said that. I think my argument is human centered to an extent as it deals with selfish choices of some humans. Either way, I don't think arguments are judged by how 'human centered' they are.

What, waking up human beings to the incredible evil they are doing by indulging in such sinister pleasures as eating meat? Pastors make these arguments all the time (though usually it's about evil sexual deviance such as being gay or having more than one partner, etc.). Your "argument" is simply preaching, and I tend not to listen to preachers who's "gospel" is irrelevant to human events.


I don't understand what your saying here. I didn't call anyone a liberal. I think perhaps your saying something here that only makes sense to yourself, like an in joke.

Too bad. I thought i made a funny :(


Once more, your argument becomes 'I don't care', which isn't really an argument at all. I think this demonstrates the inherent weakness of the meat eating 'argument', i.e. that its based on selfish compulsions.

Sure, why not? But tell me this: will the masses really care about the moral wrong of their meat eating sooner than they will the personal/human cost of their behavior? No. People were quite content with smoking until cigarettes were found to be cancerous, despite people heckling them about their yellow teeth, reeking clothes, and "bad habit" as it was called. People were content to drink until they discovered it harmed their liver, despite prohibition and the rantings of religious people. And to think, they still do! Look, if you really want to make people eat less meat, make a better argument. That's all I'm asking! STOP PREACHING AND START ARGUING!


I don't think the issue is that I'm being 'pedantic' or moralistic, I just think the issue is that meat eating is an indefensable position, which like most barbaric customs, will eventually disappear, once people fall under the weight of their own inadequat justifications. I think the fact that this argument (anti vegetarianism) is so weak is why you tend to resort to just getting angry.I'm not anti-vegetarian. You can eat whatever the fuck you want, man. I've just had it up to here with this shit. This "grand enlightenment of the human conscience concerning our animal friends" will not likely happen for a long time, certainly not after immediate concerns are remedied. So until then preach, *****, and moan about people's immorality all you want. Just realize you could be putting this time and effort towards something a little more useful.

And I'm still waiting for that argument. And you'll likely have positive reviews from me when you make it (despite how annoying you can be sometimes).

[Sarah Palin]

I'm not anti vegitarian, but I am anti PETA. They are just insane.

Btw, meat is da bomb.

[Charles Xavier]

When a wolf eats a deer instead of his veggies, is he being selfish? When a chicken has a choice between Bug and Grain, and chooses bug is she being selfish? I fail to see how we as Omnivores are being selfish doing what nature intended us to do, consume both vegetables and meat, fat, protein and carbohydrates, alongside the vitamins which help our organs function.

[hugsandmarxism]

Maybe I should put it this way:

You know that debate over sex education in schools? There are two methods of teaching sex-ed: abstinence only and comprehensive. Abstinence only goes on about the immorality of sex before marriage, and rather than teaching about sex and its risks, just tells kids not to have it. Comprehensive sex-ed teaches about sex, the dangers to one's well being that are potentially involved, and encourages kids using relevant information not to screw like rabbits rather than simply telling them "It's just wrong! Don't do it till your wedding night or God will smite you!" Statistically, abstinence only doesn't work, because preaching isn't nearly as effective as making people aware of the harms inherent in their behavior.

What I'm saying is that you should try for an argument more relevant to people rather than rave like a pastor over our moral failings. You may better accomplish your goals this way. Food for thought.

[Il Medico]

OMG! Is there actually a debate on this thread?!? Guys you just need to learn get along!

http://images.clipartof.com/thumbnails/16882-Clipart-Picture-Of-A-Meat-Beef-Steak-Mascot-Cartoon-Character-Waving-A-Green-Dollar-Bill.jpg
http://www.purplemoon.com/Stickers/peace-cosmic.jpg
http://images.clipartof.com/small/16680-Clipart-Picture-Of-A-Green-Broccoli-Food-Mascot-Cartoon-Character-With-Open-Arms.jpg

[Pogue]

When a wolf eats a deer instead of his veggies, is he being selfish? When a chicken has a choice between Bug and Grain, and chooses bug is she being selfish? I fail to see how we as Omnivores are being selfish doing what nature intended us to do, consume both vegetables and meat, fat, protein and carbohydrates, alongside the vitamins which help our organs function.

The point is you can choose. If you choose meat, its selfish.

[hugsandmarxism]

The point is you can choose. If you choose meat, its selfish.

Every one is selfish except for vegans. I'm so torn up over this! :rolleyes:

Can we move this out of chit-chat, since people are taking the discussion a little more seriously than they should (rather than just rolling their eyes at Pogue)?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Every one is selfish except for vegans. I'm so torn up over this! :rolleyes:

Can we move this out of chit-chat, since people are taking the discussion a little more seriously than they should (rather than just rolling their eyes at Pogue)?

Yea, somebody suggested that earlier. Considering this is actually becoming a serious discussion, I think it should be moved.

[Brother No. 1]

If you choose meat, its selfish.

So in all aspects is if I eat a plant I'm un-selfish to you, though I hardly care wether you see me as "Selfish" nor not, but when I eat meat I'm "Selfish."

So even though we are Omnivores and eat both meat and veggies you still think that eating meat is "wrong." So I guess being an Omnivore is apperently "wrong" to you. Like Tupac said since we have a choice in what we eat I dont eating one thing would qualify as being "selfish." Since Meat, wether you like to believe ir or not, does help us.

[Killfacer]

Shall i lower the tone by making a hilarious joke about "liking meat".

I'll get my coat.

[NecroCommie]

You guys need to chill out! Even if Pogue was not right, the only reason you guys are completely rejecting that accusation is because meat eating is accepted as a norm in present society. Besides, it is not like Pogue claimed that your entire personalities were selfish in nature, just that the exact choice of eating meat is selfish when compared to the choice of becoming a vegan. To me such a limited accusation is not a great insult. Not even when considerign that I remain a meat eater myself for the time being.

[Dervish]

So in all aspects is if I eat a plant I'm un-selfish to you, though I hardly care wether you see me as "Selfish" nor not, but when I eat meat I'm "Selfish."

So even though we are Omnivores and eat both meat and veggies you still think that eating meat is "wrong." So I guess being an Omnivore is apperently "wrong" to you. Like Tupac said since we have a choice in what we eat I dont eating one thing would qualify as being "selfish." Since Meat, wether you like to believe ir or not, does help us.

Would you care to clarify why having a choice makes something 'okay'?
As omnivores we are able to choose whether to eat meat or not -- we can survive and be perfectly healthy even if we choose not to eat meat -- therefore we eat meat (usually) merely for the pleasure it gives us.

P.S we are all egoists, whether we act in an egotistical or altruist manner

[Charles Xavier]

Would you care to clarify why having a choice makes something 'okay'?
As omnivores we are able to choose whether to eat meat or not -- we can survive and be perfectly healthy even if we choose not to eat meat -- therefore we eat meat (usually) merely for the pleasure it gives us.

P.S we are all egoists, whether we act in an egotistical or altruist manner

I eat meat for taste and protein. I do not want to look like a holocaust survivor.

The Holocaust is an example of vegetarianism.

[Kamerat]

I have been thinking of going vegan. Not because i feel sorry for the animals, but because we just get 10% food/energy of the energy/food that the animal is eating. If we had just grown human food insted of growing animal food, we would get 9 times more food. But there are places which are to cold to grow anything other then grass. And humans don't eat grass but animals do, so why not let livestock eat grass in those places where there is imposible to grow human food.

Animals are not the equivalent of humans and while humans still suffering from hunger and there is no other alternative then eating animals to get enough protein, we need to continue being carnivores.

I would love to see vegans push their lifestyle choice on inuits which have no other means to survive then eat whale, seal and fish.:rolleyes:

[Killfacer]

I eat meat for taste and protein. I do not want to look like a holocaust survivor.

The Holocaust is an example of vegetarianism.

What the fuck? You're a fucking idiot. The holocaust is an example of mass murder not vegetarianism.

[Intelligitimate]

You have to meet the working class where they are at, and they sure as hell aren't at the point of being vegans. Poor people are glad to have meat to eat.

Veganism is lifestyleist bullshit. You're not gonna save the world by not eating meat, and the working class sure as hell isn't gonna care about your bullshit.

[NecroCommie]

But there are places which are to cold to grow anything other then grass.

Such areas can only be found on tundras, which are quite desolate areas anyway. And I have heard of no cow breed that could survive on tundra. You can farm at least wheat, rye, triticale and barley hundreds of kilometers north of the arctic circle, and potatoes, carrots and actually any other root vegetable can be grown even more to the north.

I'd even make a claim that one can farm vast varieties of food almost anywhere where land melts during the summer. And thats a whole lotta land. Such food production easily manages to trade with nomadic peoples of tundra and desert, so this is really not a problem at all.

[Pogue]

You have to met the working class where they are at, and they sure as hell aren't at the point of being vegans. Poor people are glad to have meat to eat.

Veganism is lifestyleist bullshit. You're not gonna save the world by not eating meat, and the working class sure as hell isn't gonna care about your bullshit.

Once more, the rational and intelligent defense of meat eating shows itself. I think its further telling that most people can't defend their selfish actions without resorting to swearing and insults. Such is the case with decadent and fading beliefs.

[Kamerat]

Such areas can only be found on tundras, which are quite desolate areas anyway. And I have heard of no cow breed that could survive on tundra. You can farm at least wheat, rye, triticale and barley hundreds of kilometers north of the arctic circle, and potatoes, carrots and actually any other root vegetable can be grown even more to the north.

I'd even make a claim that one can farm vast varieties of food almost anywhere where land melts during the summer. And thats a whole lotta land. Such food production easily manages to trade with nomadic peoples of tundra and desert, so this is really not a problem at all.
No not just tundras, such areas can be found in norwegian valleys which there are a lot of, not so flat as in Finland. Pine trees and birch grows there (so its not tundra because tundra is treeless areas), but you cant grow anything that humans can eat. And desolate areas are relative. One can only grow those types of food you mention close to the sea/gulf stream if its close/north of the artic circle.

[bcbm]

Why we talking about torturing animals? I just want to eat them not anything else.

It doesn't matter what you want. The objective fact is that modern meat production involves the torture of animals.


I mean if I didn't have milk I would be having to eat a shit load of beans and soy, and they have a lot of estrogen and are quite expensive.

Um... you know most animals raised in factory farms are pumped full of pretty disgusting chemical cocktails, right?

[Intelligitimate]

Once more, the rational and intelligent defense of meat eating shows itself. I think its further telling that most people can't defend their selfish actions without resorting to swearing and insults. Such is the case with decadent and fading beliefs.

I personally eat meat, but I wouldn't be opposed to becoming a vegetarian or vegan. It is mostly an inconvenience in this culture to do so though. How am I supposed to go to people's houses and eat their food, or go out to eat with them and we all enjoy ourselves? How about the expense associated with that choice of dietary restrictions? I don't have the extra-money to spend on that crap.

You think you can reach out to working and poor people by not eating the same food they do? Can you reach out to oppressed nationalities by not eating their traditional foods? They're gonna look at you as some idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white child, and they'd be right.

Should people be more empathetic to animals, and more concerned about the environmental and health impacts of our diet? Sure. Should radical activists push veganism and other idiotic lifestyle politics to the masses? Absolutely not.

[NecroCommie]

No not just tundras, such areas can be found in norwegian valleys which there are a lot of, not so flat as in Finland. Pine trees and birch grows there (so its not tundra because tundra is treeless areas),
Well then you should have said that there are areas that are not flat enough to farm. Instead you said they are so north it's hard to farm. Besides, Norway is supposedly "challnging" land agriculturally, and yet there is enough food for export. (or less import whatevah) That is possible due to technology.

And desolate areas are relative. One can only grow those types of food you mention close to the sea/gulf stream if its close/north of the artic circle.
A lie. Finnish lapland is not near the golf stream and continental weather is dominant where my grandparents live. The scandic mountains lesser the warming effect of the atlantic even further, yet their village is an agricultural one. When you go further inland towards siberia farming becomes impossible, not due to cold weather but because the land is always frozen = tundra. Even there they nowadays enjoy roots, berries and as imports: vegetables and grain.

If vegetarianism truly was so challenging in most parts of the world, many human civilizations would have disappeared aeons ago. As it happens, even the arctic nations required the nutrients of vegetables, even 10,000 years ago. And they live today.

[NecroCommie]

I personally eat meat, but I wouldn't be opposed to becoming a vegetarian or vegan. It is mostly an inconvenience in this culture to do so though. How am I supposed to go to people's houses and eat their food, or go out to eat with them and we all enjoy ourselves? How about the expense associated with that choice of dietary restrictions? I don't have the extra-money to spend on that crap.
If you have a problem with what other people think of your choices, I suggest you turn to capitalism just about now.

As to the cost: Vegetarianism is actually alot cheaper. Those hippie vegetarians and vegans only eat all those exotic foodstuffs because they want something exotic in their life or they have some goofy fixation to some eastern culture. All nutrients can be gained from any regional (I live in scandinavia) plant/mushroom or berry. Vegetarians can even resort to eggs and milk which helps ALOT.


You think you can reach out to working and poor people by not eating the same food they do? Can you reach out to oppressed nationalities by not eating their traditional foods? They're gonna look at you as some idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white child, and they'd be right.
If their political alliances are restricted by your diet, what the hell do they think about your western appearance? :blink: Besides, most opressed people are forced to lesser degrees of vegetarianism. Meat is a luxury product to most workers of the world, so vegetarianism actually helps to reach them.


Should people be more empathetic to animals, and more concerned about the environmental and health impacts of our diet? Sure. Should radical activists push veganism and other idiotic lifestyle politics to the masses? Absolutely not.
No one is talking anything about pushing or forcing vegetarianism and veganism. They are to be spread the same way as communist ideology, through reasoning and conversation. And the global environmental and health impacts are most propably positive.

[Bright Banana Beard]

The point is you can choose. If you choose vegan, its selfish.

[Intelligitimate]

If you have a problem with what other people think of your choices, I suggest you turn to capitalism just about now.

This is a stupid comment that has nothing to do with what I said, and goes to show further that vegans are people who think in terms of idiotic lifestyle politics. I don't care what people think of my choices. I care about how my choices hurt me in relating to people and radicalizing them, by pushing a stupid lifestyle choice that ultimately doesn't amount to anything but petty-bourgeois stupidity. People are vastly more important than animals. Overthrowing capitalism is vastly more important than animals.


As to the cost: Vegetarianism is actually alot cheaper.

No it isn't. Every single vegan and ex-vegan I have ever talked to specifically says it is more expensive. Lots of vegetarian/vegan things you'd want to eat a lot of rots very quickly. Going to the store often to get more fruits and vegetables increases the cost of eating.


If their political alliances are restricted by your diet, what the hell do they think about your western appearance? :blink:

What the fuck kind of stupid question is this? As an activist in the West, my "western appearance" isn't gonna hinder me in the slightest.


Besides, most opressed people are forced to lesser degrees of vegetarianism.

Poor black and hispanic people in America eat meat. Being a vegan/vegetarian immediately alienates yourself from them.


No one is talking anything about pushing or forcing vegetarianism and veganism. They are to be spread the same way as communist ideology, through reasoning and conversation.

You don't push communism by "reasoning and conversation." The masses learn through struggle, not fucking conversations. Just how removed from actual real political work are you to even suggest something so retarded?

Working and poor people don't give a shit about veganism/vegetarianism. They see it for what it is: the idiotic idealism of petty-bourgeois white children. You're not gonna have a "conversation" with them to convince them otherwise, especially when they can just look at you and tell they're right.

[Pogue]

I personally eat meat, but I wouldn't be opposed to becoming a vegetarian or vegan. It is mostly an inconvenience in this culture to do so though. How am I supposed to go to people's houses and eat their food, or go out to eat with them and we all enjoy ourselves? How about the expense associated with that choice of dietary restrictions? I don't have the extra-money to spend on that crap.

You think you can reach out to working and poor people by not eating the same food they do? Can you reach out to oppressed nationalities by not eating their traditional foods? They're gonna look at you as some idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white child, and they'd be right.

Should people be more empathetic to animals, and more concerned about the environmental and health impacts of our diet? Sure. Should radical activists push veganism and other idiotic lifestyle politics to the masses? Absolutely not.

No one is really talking about pushing anything. I'm ot trying to push anything on anyone, I don't believe in violent concesion in terms of whether someone is vegetarian or not.

I don't see how its any more difficult to reach out to 'working and poor people' because I'm a vegetarian. I'm a working class person myself as are all my friends and I know alot of working class vegetarians. I'm active in working class politics and I don't think my dietary choices make it anymore difficult to communicate with people at all. I think my personality is what helps me with this.


Can you reach out to oppressed nationalities by not eating their traditional foods? They're gonna look at you as some idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white child, and they'd be right.

I don't think there is such a thing as an 'oppressed nationality', I think there is an oppressed class, but I think you may be suffering from some sort of orientalism here. I don't think people from other cultures are too thick to understand vegetarianism or not accept it, and of course alot of cultures have vegetarianism as a prominent or integral part of them, such as in India where vegetarianism is widespread. Theres alot of people from many different cultures where I live and it's never been a problem, but I can't speak for your attitudes towards people from 'oppressed nationalities'.

I don't think people look at me as an idealistic petit-bourgeois priviliged white child, either. I don't see how I'm being idealistic. Figures on sustainability from even the UN says its idealistic to believe meat consumption can go on at its current levels, and that vegetarianism is alot more economical and sustainable for the human race.

I don't think most people judge people's class position by their dietary choices. When I was working, I was on the national minimum wage and I used to eat vegetarian food on the lunchbreak with my colleagues. I think it was clear here I was not a 'petit bourgeois priviliged white child'. Alot of my friends in this area are vegetarian and many of them are non-white and are working class. I think oncemore your implementing the sorts of arguments I get from meat eaters, i.e. aggressive strawmen based on false predjudices towards people who make different and in my opinion better decisions than you.

[Intelligitimate]

I don't think there is such a thing as an 'oppressed nationality'

Then you're an idiot.


I think you may be suffering from some sort of orientalism here. I don't think people from other cultures are too thick to understand vegetarianism or not accept it

No one said that. In fact, what I said is that they would be completely correct in perceiving you as a petty-bourgeois privileged white child, whether you claim to be working class or not, as that is class character of your ideology.


I don't think people look at me as an idealistic petit-bourgeois priviliged white child, either.

If they don't, it's only because you don't bother preaching about veganism/vegetarianism or make it an issue at all.

[hugsandmarxism]

I think the moral for Pogue here is to cease nagging people about irrelevant things, or else he risks becoming irrelevant himself.

[Pogue]

I think the moral for Pogue here is to cease nagging people about irrelevant things, or else he risks becoming irrelevant himself.

So basically, you've moved on beyond the stage of insults and posting pictures of chicken onto outrightly dismissing my argument as 'irrelevant'.

Wicked.

[hugsandmarxism]

So basically, you've moved on beyond the stage of insults and posting pictures of chicken onto outrightly dismissing my argument as 'irrelevant'.

Wicked.

Yep :D

I still love ya though ;)

[Kamerat]

Well then you should have said that there are areas that are not flat enough to farm. Instead you said they are so north it's hard to farm. Besides, Norway is supposedly "challnging" land agriculturally, and yet there is enough food for export. (or less import whatevah) That is possible due to technology.
When i said "not flat" i ment high above sea level. But i guess that the terrain in addition is rugged as well. This is not just for Norway, other places with same climate have the same difficultes like Northern/Rocky Moutain area in Canada, Alaska, Siberia, Southern Chile and Argentina.


A lie. Finnish lapland is not near the golf stream and continental weather is dominant where my grandparents live. The scandic mountains lesser the warming effect of the atlantic even further, yet their village is an agricultural one. When you go further inland towards siberia farming becomes impossible, not due to cold weather but because the land is always frozen = tundra. Even there they nowadays enjoy roots, berries and as imports: vegetables and grain.
I did not say you cant have agriculture north of the artic circle only that you can just grow grass for animals to eat there. Maybe potatoes, carrots, rye and oat if its in close to the sea or not that high above sea level.

But who wants to eat potatoes, carrots, rye and oat for the rest of their lives.

In the vegan revolution, are you going to force the sami people to abandon reindeer herding, their means to survive. Fucking petit-borgouise decadence.:tt2:

[Pogue]

Yep :D

I still love ya though ;)

I never see revleft argument's as evidence of whether or not I like someone, but I do think they show the strengths of certain people's positions, and I'd suggest this argument is currently strengthening my position more than yours, simply based on your responses, i.e. alot of insults. We haven't even really got down to it yet though.

[hugsandmarxism]

I never see revleft argument's as evidence of whether or not I like someone, but I do think they show the strengths of certain people's positions, and I'd suggest this argument is currently strengthening my position more than yours, simply based on your responses, i.e. alot of insults. We haven't even really got down to it yet though.

Look, I'll invest more interest when you make arguments relevant to human affairs (the HUMAN cost of meat consumption). You may want to brush up on this argument if you want people to listen who don't see or don't care about your insight into the morality of human meat eating. There are alot of arguments (infact, you may be surprised to hear I haven't eaten meat in awhile, do to both dietary concerns and the reality of the waste of the meat industry). I think your current argument is silly, trivial, and irrelevant to the everyday person. Make an argument that matters to people, otherwise, expect people to ignore you and dismiss you. Thing strategically.

[Pogue]

Look, I'll invest more interest when you make arguments relevant to human affairs (the HUMAN cost of meat consumption). You may want to brush up on this argument if you want people to listen who don't see or don't care about your insight into the morality of human meat eating. There are alot of arguments (infact, you may be surprised to hear I haven't eaten meat in awhile, do to both dietary concerns and the reality of the waste of the meat industry). I think your current argument is silly, trivial, and irrelevant to the everyday person. Make an argument that matters to people, otherwise, expect people to ignore you and dismiss you. Thing strategically.

Well thats clever isn't it. Your argument doesn't follow the path I want it to follow so I am entitled to ignore it. What a stupid presmise for engaging an argument. The philosophy of animals is a wide area of philosophy argued over with many well acclaimed books written on it. To say you wont engage me in an argument in this area of debate is quite simply vowardice and shows you don't feel you have arguments adwquate enough to respond to me.

[NecroCommie]

This is a stupid comment that has nothing to do with what I said, and goes to show further that vegans are people who think in terms of idiotic lifestyle politics. I don't care what people think of my choices. I care about how my choices hurt me in relating to people and radicalizing them, by pushing a stupid lifestyle choice that ultimately doesn't amount to anything but petty-bourgeois stupidity. People are vastly more important than animals. Overthrowing capitalism is vastly more important than animals.
Aren't you dramatizing things abit now? Supporting vegetarianism is a hinderance to the revolution now? And how idiotic populace we would need to have for it to deny communism because we have percentually bigger population of vegetarians and vegans? Most my friends are vegetarians, and I would not have even noticed it if they had not brought it up.

Besides, the assumed hinderance vegetarianism might have on "interfering with other people" is not a proper counter argument anyway, for in no way does it make meat-eating cheaper.

No it isn't. Every single vegan and ex-vegan I have ever talked to specifically says it is more expensive. Lots of vegetarian/vegan things you'd want to eat a lot of rots very quickly. Going to the store often to get more fruits and vegetables increases the cost of eating.
Did you even read what I wrote? Every single ex-vegan you have talked to have been exactly the kind of hippy-dippy exotic vegan I was talking about.

And the rotting of products is the worst excuse of all. Plants, fruits and stuff are way more easier and cheaper to can/dry or freeze. Thats right, you dont need to buy everything fresh, as the hippie vegans often do. And meat rots too, if not even more easily than vegetarian products. And if you buy more than you actually eat, then, well... Thats a sign of stupidity and bad plannign, not a sign of meat-food superiority.

What the fuck kind of stupid question is this? As an activist in the West, my "western appearance" isn't gonna hinder me in the slightest.
*Sigh* I assumed that you were talking of the third world, since if vegetarianism is a hinderance for interpersonal relations it would need to be one isolated society. A westerner is either so used to vegans and vegetarians that they simply don't give a squat, or they are so conservatist anyway that they are beyond salvation.

But as it appears you really believe most westerners are narrowminded twats.


Poor black and hispanic people in America eat meat. Being a vegan/vegetarian immediately alienates yourself from them.
SO WHAT THE FUCK!!!! Being communist alienates me from them!!


You don't push communism by "reasoning and conversation." The masses learn through struggle, not fucking conversations. Just how removed from actual real political work are you to even suggest something so retarded?

And how do you suggest the masses reach the will to fight? Not by forcing them thats for sure.


Working and poor people don't give a shit about veganism/vegetarianism. They see it for what it is: the idiotic idealism of petty-bourgeois white children. You're not gonna have a "conversation" with them to convince them otherwise, especially when they can just look at you and tell they're right.
If you are narrow minded goon it does not mean everybody else is.

I mean how mind bogglingly stupid can an argument get!? All other people! Just look at that fucking argument! If I call meat-eating a bourgeois decadence, it would be exactly as valid. You simply call veganism bad, and think that it proves something?

[NecroCommie]

When i said "not flat" i ment high above sea level. But i guess that the terrain in addition is rugged as well. This is not just for Norway, other places with same climate have the same difficultes like Northern/Rocky Moutain area in Canada, Alaska, Siberia, Southern Chile and Argentina.
Aye, but are they not as well provided with foodstuff that allows vegetarianism? I get your point that regional quirks can render vegetarianism and veganism addicted to trade, but then again my argument is that of trade and civilization. Not one of us believes that primmies are gonna take over the world huh? ;)


I did not say you cant have agriculture north of the artic circle only that you can just grow grass for animals to eat there. Maybe potatoes, carrots, rye and oat if its in close to the sea or not that high above sea level. see above...


But who wants to eat potatoes, carrots, rye and oat for the rest of their lives.
Ah, but that is an argument of personal preference! Be careful not to talk for others than yourself. Personally I think that thoughts as the likes of that are because people just haven't tasted all the good vegetarian recepies. But ofcourse I cannot talk for others either, so lets keep it to the arguments of economy, eh?


In the vegan revolution, are you going to force the sami people to abandon reindeer herding, their means to survive. Fucking petit-borgouise decadence.:tt2:
We will spread vegetarianism and veganism similarly as we spread communism pre-revolution. I am half-sami myself so I know that they are not addicted to reindeers anymore.

[An archist]

Working and poor people don't give a shit about veganism/vegetarianism. They see it for what it is: the idiotic idealism of petty-bourgeois white children. You're not gonna have a "conversation" with them to convince them otherwise, especially when they can just look at you and tell they're right.

Gee wiz, thanks for pointing that out, that's so true!
You obviously know all working and poor people, and they all think this way, and you if you encounter poor,/working people who are vegans or vegetarians, well then obviously they're just silly middle class idealists aren't they?



You think you can reach out to working and poor people by not eating the same food they do?
I am a working person, I don't need to 'reach out' to working people, I live among them. I don't need to do exactly the same things as my co-workers to relate to them and I don't want to, because I'd have to start sniffing coke, smoking weed and drink loads more alcohol. I don't do these things and somehow, I can still relate to people who do. Weird isn't it?



Can you reach out to oppressed nationalities by not eating their traditional foods? They're gonna look at you as some idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white child, and they'd be right.

Oh, so people from opressed nationalities eating their 'traditional foods' is perfectly normal, but if other people eat vegetarian or vegan food they're idealistic petit-bourgeois privileged white children?
What the hell? Different people eat different food, it may surprise you, but coworkers don't look at me like I'm an alien because I eat cheese sandwiches instead of ham sandwiches.

[NecroCommie]

Honestly, someone move this thread ou of chit-chat. When was the last immature one-liner?

[Kamerat]

Aye, but are they not as well provided with foodstuff that allows vegetarianism? I get your point that regional quirks can render vegetarianism and veganism addicted to trade, but then again my argument is that of trade and civilization. Not one of us believes that primmies are gonna take over the world huh? ;)
Ok so you see my point that the northern parts of the world and a bit in the south are dependent on meat production. And after the "vegan revolution" those parts of the world will be dependent on the parts of the world with higher temperatures and more sun to produce their food. In Norway the northern population are already complaining that the southern population are puting so many restrictions on them that they cant produce anything, and have to live of welfare. Guess there is going to be a lot worse after the "vegan revolution" when the main industry which is fishing is closed down, and the sami people are looked up in the gulags for reactionary reindeer herding.

[Intelligitimate]

Let's be clear on something: vegans push their particular brand of lifestyle politics. Maybe the people here want to claim they don't do that, but that is probably a lie. Anyone who has worked with vegan activists knows this. I remember one girl in particular telling me how you're not really a Leftist if you're not a vegan (yet she was a stupid Obama Liberal).

If you don't do that, that's fine. Let veganism be your personal lifestyle choice, and most people aren't gonna care. Once you start pushing this vegan lifestylist brand of politics, you most certainly are gonna alienate yourself from working and poor people, because they don't give a shit about that.


Did you even read what I wrote? Every single ex-vegan you have talked to have been exactly the kind of hippy-dippy exotic vegan I was talking about.

This is bullshit. The fact is unless you want to eat nothing but dried beans and rice, you're probably gonna end up spending more money to consume food as a vegan.


*Sigh* I assumed that you were talking of the third world, since if vegetarianism is a hinderance for interpersonal relations it would need to be one isolated society. A westerner is either so used to vegans and vegetarians that they simply don't give a squat, or they are so conservatist anyway that they are beyond salvation.

This just shows how disconnected you are from working and poor people in America. Maybe when you get out of university and stop hanging around your privileged petty bourgeois (mostly) white friends, you'll that you're not gonna be taken seriously by working and poor people when everything about you screams "privileged white kid."


But as it appears you really believe most westerners are narrowminded twats.

It's not narrow-minded. It's true. Mostly affluent white college students become vegans, and working people and poor don't take seriously petty-bourgeois white college students.


SO WHAT THE FUCK!!!! Being communist alienates me from them!!

This shouldn't even come up, if you are actually leading people in meaningful political struggle.


And how do you suggest the masses reach the will to fight? Not by forcing them thats for sure.

What kind of ridiculous comment is this?


I mean how mind bogglingly stupid can an argument get!? All other people! Just look at that fucking argument! If I call meat-eating a bourgeois decadence, it would be exactly as valid. You simply call veganism bad, and think that it proves something?

I'm not saying veganism is bad. I'm saying people who are vegan are mostly petty-bourgeois white children who will never be taken seriously by working and poor people. I'm saying they push their stupid lifestyle politics above class struggle and alienate themselves.

[NecroCommie]

Ok so you see my point that the northern parts of the world and a bit in the south are dependent on meat production. And after the "vegan revolution" those parts of the world will be dependent on the parts of the world with higher temperatures and more sun to produce their food. In Norway the northern population are already complaining that the southern population are puting so many restrictions on them that they cant produce anything, and have to live of welfare. Guess there is going to be a lot worse after the "vegan revolution" when the main industry which is fishing is closed down, and the sami people are looked up in the gulags for reactionary reindeer herding.
The same discussion is going here because the government and the EU are shifting agricultural funds more south were farming is more productive. The heart of the problem however lies within monetary system and capitalism, which will not be a problem after the communist revolution. The fact that the northern farmer's have a decreasing income and production, means that they have had higher income and production in the past ---> Large scale food production in the north is more than possible with the proper society.

[Kamerat]

Intelligitimate why do you bring up the color of ones skin, its irrelevant.

The same discussion is going here because the government and the EU are shifting agricultural funds more south were farming is more productive. The heart of the problem however lies within monetary system and capitalism, which will not be a problem after the communist revolution. The fact that the northern farmer's have a decreasing income and production, means that they have had higher income and production in the past ---> Large scale food production in the north is more than possible with the proper society.
Yea maybe with greenhouses it will be posible.

[Pogue]

Intelligitimate why do you bring up the color of ones skin, its irrelevant.

Because he was desperate for something to use against me, and failing an actual argument...

[NecroCommie]

Let's be clear on something: vegans push their particular brand of lifestyle politics. Maybe the people here want to claim they don't do that, but that is probably a lie. Anyone who has worked with vegan activists knows this. I remember one girl in particular telling me how you're not really a Leftist if you're not a vegan (yet she was a stupid Obama Liberal).
So if there exist vegans who force their views on you, all vegans must force their view on you? And if a vegan don't push themselves onto you, it must be a vile liberal plot? I have worked with vegan activists, and this is complete news to me.


If you don't do that, that's fine. Let veganism be your personal lifestyle choice, and most people aren't gonna care. Once you start pushing this vegan lifestylist brand of politics, you most certainly are gonna alienate yourself from working and poor people, because they don't give a shit about that.
On the accusation of lifestylism: I do not think that my individual choice has an impact on this world, so it does not classify as lifestylism. Vegetarianism and veganism are good choices for the ones who wish to spread the idea. As an advantage for arguments, the kind of "I've done it so I know"-argument. And my friends only do it so they could look into a mirror at mornings and feel good.

And it's a good thing you know all the workers in the world then. Did it perhaps pass your mind that the workers of finland might be vegetarian? Or are you too nationalist to look beyond your own borders?


This is bullshit. The fact is unless you want to eat nothing but dried beans and rice, you're probably gonna end up spending more money to consume food as a vegan.

Proposterous accusation with no basis in reality at all.


This just shows how disconnected you are from working and poor people in America. Maybe when you get out of university and stop hanging around your privileged petty bourgeois (mostly) white friends, you'll that you're not gonna be taken seriously by working and poor people when everything about you screams "privileged white kid."
Just so you know, I live in a one room apartment in the poorest district of the city... But I MUST earn well, after all I support vegetarianism. Good to know. I should spend more next christmas, after all I am so rich.



It's not narrow-minded. It's true. Mostly affluent white college students become vegans, and working people and poor don't take seriously petty-bourgeois white college students.
Once again your skills of mind reading baffle me! It is unbelievable how someone can read the, ever shifting, oppinions of the majority so easily! :rolleyes:


This shouldn't even come up, if you are actually leading people in meaningful political struggle.
So... what do you suggest? Give them guns in their hands tell the workers that the fat cats in the parliament are actually secret coven of satanist muslim terrorists?

No, one needs to bring up communism to teach communism



What kind of ridiculous comment is this?

Yes, that is a riddle is it not... :rolleyes:


I'm not saying veganism is bad. I'm saying people who are vegan are mostly petty-bourgeois white children who will never be taken seriously by working and poor people. I'm saying they push their stupid lifestyle politics above class struggle and alienate themselves.
... Should I even take this seriously...


No.

[NecroCommie]

Intelligitimate why do you bring up the color of ones skin, its irrelevant.

Yea maybe with greenhouses it will be posible.
I am convinced that greenhouses are needed for more exotic plants only. Well, the same plants that are greenhousegrown today. The quantitive production of food is not even an issue. Vegetarian food products can be produced abundantly even in siberia. Issue is that of quality of food production, and to prevent possible regional anemias during vegetarianism. So the real question is how to grow more imported plants in sufficient quantities, or can their nutrients be replaced with sufficient amount of agricultural re-organizing.

[Kamerat]

I am convinced that greenhouses are needed for more exotic plants only. Well, the same plants that are greenhousegrown today.
I dont think you would have managed to grow wheat or any other none exotic plant except potatoes, carrots, rye and oat in Finmark (northern most county in Norway) without a greenhouse. So going vegan in the north would be expencive. Without being fully dependent on the wormer areas of the world.

[Charles Xavier]

I tend to avoid vegans in my everyday life, I am a meat and potatoes lifestyle revolutionaries, you are not a revolutionary unless you eat meat and potatoes!

[Bright Banana Beard]

I just made my own steak, using my own seasoning, so delicious!

[Steve_j]

you are not a revolutionary unless you eat meat and potatoes!

Well then restict me..... but i will hunt you down and steal you potatos!!

[Killfacer]

I think killing animals is the same as killing humans.

[hugsandmarxism]

Well thats clever isn't it. Your argument doesn't follow the path I want it to follow so I am entitled to ignore it.
What a stupid presmise for engaging an argument.

No, your argument doesn't follow a relevant path and hence doesn't matter to the average person. If you want people to listen, speak to them at where they're at, if you want to reach them.


The philosophy of animals is a wide area of philosophy argued over with many well acclaimed books written on it.

And yet, people still eat meat, and have no intention of stopping. Maybe all these great philosophers and their tomes about the philosophy of vegetarian ethics have made the same mistake you have, by not making arguments capable of winning the average person over.


To say you wont engage me in an argument in this area of debate is quite simply vowardice and shows you don't feel you have arguments adwquate enough to respond to me.

The ironic thing is that I'm more on your side of the debate than anything, only I can't stand your argument, and have been trying to impress upon you the simple fact that these arguments aren't going to get you anywhere with working class people who can't afford to indulge in your comparatively more expensive lifestyle. So, go right ahead, tell everyone you meet that they're a cruel and selfish person for eating what they do, and as much as you smugly turn up your nose to the rest of humanity and pout at their absence of morality, the simple fact is that most of the time your arguments will fall on deaf ears. Have fun being irrelevant.

[Charles Xavier]

I think killing animals is the same as killing humans.


Does that mean we can kill you without going to jail?
Or that wolves, sharks, spiders, birds, should be executed or jailed because they eat animals to survive?

[Jazzratt]

I think killing animals is the same as killing humans.

I think you're a moron.

[NecroCommie]

I think you're a moron.
I think it is irrelevant.

[Killfacer]

I think you're a moron.

I think a sheep is as important as me.
I had hoped it was obvious i was joking but....

[Redmau5]

I tend to avoid vegans in my everyday life, I am a meat and potatoes lifestyle revolutionaries, you are not a revolutionary unless you eat meat and potatoes!

What a bore.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

While we're on the subject, I've never eaten beef jerky, until now. Apparently a good way to preserve meat is to transform it into little translucent strips with a consistency approaching that of shoe leather. Tastes nice and there's a curiously perverse pleasure in giving it a good chew. What does everyone else think?

[LOLseph Stalin]

While we're on the subject, I've never eaten beef jerky, until now. Apparently a good way to preserve meat is to transform it into little translucent strips with a consistency approaching that of shoe leather. Tastes nice and there's a curiously perverse pleasure in giving it a good chew. What does everyone else think?

Beef jerky is good, especially the seasoned kind.

[Jazzratt]

While we're on the subject, I've never eaten beef jerky, until now.

You surprise me. I always assumed you had.

I fucking love the stuff.

[Charles Xavier]

Beef Jerky varies in quality. If you find the right beef jerky and eat it at the right time of hunger it is a magical union between man and jerky.

[ls]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ12DDe4ag0