Israel versus Iran [Archive]

h0m0revolutionary

7th July 2009, 15:06

My greater sympathies are with Israel and against Iran. (Surprise!)

Then you're an idiot with no understanding of the conflict at all.

Israel will be the launchpad for a US-led strategic airstrike of Iranian nuclear facilities (70 miles underground btw - so you can imagine the bombs required for that kind of turrain penetration!), which will decimate the whole Middle East and kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people.

My sympathes are absolutly not with the government that will potentially carry this barbarous act out! Neither are my sympathies with the Iran government however, who have used this climate of war-mongering to justify ever harsher oppression against Iranian progressive forces.

I side with the Israeli and Iranian people again their governments and I hope one day you look over the shoulder of tyrannous governments, (who in the case of Israel prop up their own vile settler-colonial state) and side with the workers, who are locked in a battle against war and their own national bourgeoisie!

Robert

7th July 2009, 16:21

I wasn't really asking for marxist sloganeering, comrade, but thank you anyway.

7th July 2009, 16:22

If Israel does this within the next few days, I'll be pretty surprised. The Israeli government can't be oblivious to rising international opposition to its aggression. To strike Iran now, considering there has probably been a relative increase in sympathy for the Iranian public following the "Western" mainstream media's constant coverage of the election riots, would be a pretty stupid move on a tactical level. It is a shame that the workers of Israel's proletariat seem to be so groomed to fear improbable attacks from other countries (sounds familiar) that they're completely oblivious to the immediate danger that is being engendered by the belligerent aggression of their own government. Though I suppose any vulnerability Israel may have due to its physical location is really rendered irrelevant by its (undoubtedly) first rate nuclear arsenal and imperial 'proprietary' - it goes without saying that any country which even considered some form of retaliation would instantaneously invite the lethal wrath of the US and its allies. But that's the usual recipe for regional dominance. I just sincerely hope the Iranian public will not be again forced to bear the brunt of 'Western' imperial avarice.

GPDP

7th July 2009, 16:28

I don't like your opinion, so I'm gonna call it "marxist sloganeering" and call it a day.

fixd

Anyway, fuck both of those government. I, too, side with the people whose death sentences are being written, either by conscription or by bombs.

7th July 2009, 16:34

By the way, can the author of this thread provide some links to support the assertion of an anticipated attack?

Demogorgon

7th July 2009, 16:49

ÑóẊîöŉ

7th July 2009, 16:50

Israel will be the launchpad for a US-led strategic airstrike of Iranian nuclear facilities (70 miles underground btw - so you can imagine the bombs required for that kind of turrain penetration!)

I think you meant meters, not miles. The Earth's crust isn't even 40 miles deep even in it's thickest areas, let alone 70.

Dean

7th July 2009, 16:54

There are reports that the phone wires are burning up between Tel Aviv and
D.C. A military strike by either against the other wouldn't surprise me at this point.

Does the revolutionary left have a preference as to the Iranian versus Israeli governments, or do you see both as equally bad from a class struggle POV?

My greater sympathies are with Israel and against Iran. (Surprise!)

Israel is clearly more violent, repressive and destructive. Iran has not invaded another nation in the last centuries... And Israel was formed and created on the back of one of the most effective ethnic-cleansing in the last century.

Enforced white nationalism is undeniably worse than self-perpetuating political repression which any state uses.

Robert

7th July 2009, 17:20

some links to support the assertion of an anticipated attack?

I just said it wouldn't surprise me. I am thinking, though, that Israel has reason to fear Iran, or thinks it has reason to fear Iran, even more than it feared Baghdad in 1981 when it pre-emptively bombed Iraq. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm

From Debka, an Israeli site with friends inside the Israeli military, or so I believe:

Netanyahu's predecessor, ex-prime minister Ehud Olmert, did in fact apply to former president George W. Bush for his nod on a prospective Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear sites. Bush turned him down on this and on certain items of hardware Olmert requested for the air strike.

http://www.debka.com/index1.php

Iran is reportedly closer to nuclear capability now than it was during the Bush administration. And with Joe Biden saying "Israel has to do what it has to do," I read all that to mean that Israeli jets are very likely on the runway with their motors idling.

Obviously I hope they don't take off.

Dervish

7th July 2009, 17:31

Enforced white nationalism is undeniably worse than self-perpetuating political repression which any state uses.

Zionist nationalism is in no way "white".

Dean

7th July 2009, 17:40

Zionist nationalism is in no way "white".

Tell that to the Ethiopian Jews in prisons, unable to gain Israeli citizenship due to their ethnicity.

Ethiopian News - Israeli prison is filled with Ethiopians - Cynthia McKinney (http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/10274)

But I’ve learned an interesting thing by being inside this prison. First of all, it’s incredibly black: populated mostly by Ethiopians who also had a dream… like my cellmates, one who is pregnant. They are all are in their twenties. They thought they were coming to the Holy Land. They had a dream that their lives would be better… The once proud, never-colonized Ethiopia [has been thrown into] the back pocket of the United States, and become a place of torture, rendition, and occupation. Ethiopians must free their country because superpower politics [have] become more important than human rights and self-determination.

My cellmates came to the Holy Land so they could be free from the exigencies of superpower politics. They committed no crime except to have a dream. They came to Israel because they thought that Israel held promise for them. Their journey to Israel through Sudan and Egypt was arduous. I can only imagine what it must have been like for them. And it wasn’t cheap. Many of them represent their family’s best collective efforts for self-fulfilment. They made their way to the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. They got their yellow paper of identification. They got their certificate for police protection. They are refugees from tragedy, and they made it to Israel, only after they arrived Israel told them, "There is no UN in Israel."

The police here have license to pick them up and suck them into the black hole of a farce for a justice system. These beautiful, industrious and proud women represent the hopes of entire families. The idea of Israel tricked them and the rest of us. In a widely propagandized slick marketing campaign, Israel represented itself as a place of refuge and safety for the world’s first Jews and Christians. I too believed that marketing and failed to look deeper.

Oops, racism.

AJE - "Gaza activists still in Israel jail" (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/07/20097416179795886.html)

Dervish

7th July 2009, 17:54

Tell that to the Ethiopian Jews in prisons, unable to gain Israeli citizenship due to their ethnicity.

Oops, racism.

It's not because of their ethnicity, it's most likely because they are not Jews (there is not such thing as "Jewish ethnicity").
Israel is an extremely racist country, but I would not call Zionist nationalism "white" nationalism.

Dean

7th July 2009, 18:15

It's not because of their ethnicity, it's most likely because they are not Jews (there is not such thing as "Jewish ethnicity").
Israel is an extremely racist country, but I would not call Zionist nationalism "white" nationalism.

'White' is the ethnic privilege of lighter skinned people. The settler colonies, as well as the exclusory system of admission and citizen priviledges, are all based on the priviledge of light-skinned whites. I don't see how Israel doesn't fit this schematic.

Dervish

7th July 2009, 18:56

'White' is the ethnic privilege of lighter skinned people. The settler colonies, as well as the exclusory system of admission and citizen priviledges, are all based on the priviledge of light-skinned whites. I don't see how Israel doesn't fit this schematic.

Israel doesn't really fit the schematic because Israel did not privilege persons according to their ethnicity, but according to their wealth (although white Jewish immigrants from Europe tend to be wealthier than Jewish immigrants from Africa, for example, but moneyless white Jewish immigrants were treated in pretty much the same manner moneyless Jewish immigrants from Africa or Asia were treated).

khad

7th July 2009, 19:13

http://www.naba.org.uk/content/articles/History/603_Jews_of_Iraq_Giladi.htm

Later I made my way to the new state of Israel, arriving in May, 1950. My passport had my name in Arabic and English, but the English couldn't capture the "kh" sound, so it was rendered simply as Klaski. At the border, the immigration people applied the English version, which had an Eastern European, Ashkenazi ring to it. In one way, this "mistake" was my key to discovering very soon just how the Israeli caste system worked.

They asked me where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. I was the son of a farmer; I knew all the problems of the farm, so I volunteered to go to Dafnah, a farming kibbutz in the high Galilee. I only lasted a few weeks. The new immigrants were given the worst of everything. The food was the same, but that was the only thing that everyone had in common. For the immigrants, bad cigarettes, even bad toothpaste. Everything. I left.

Then, through the Jewish Agency, I was advised to go to al-Majdal (later renamed Ashkelon), an Arab town about 9 miles from Gaza, very close to the Mediterranean. The Israeli government planned to turn it into a farmers' city, so my farm background would be an asset there.

When I reported to the Labor Office in al-Majdal, they saw that I could read and write Arabic and Hebrew and they said that I could find a good-paying job with the Military Governor's office. The Arabs were under the authority of these Israeli Military Governors. A clerk handed me a bunch of forms in Arabic and Hebrew. Now it dawned on me. Before Israel could establish its farmers' city, it had to rid al-Majdal of its indigenous Palestinians. The forms were petitions to the United Nations Inspectors asking for transfer out of Israel to Gaza, which was under Egyptian control.

I read over the petition. In signing, the Palestinian would be saying that he was of sound mind and body and was making the request for transfer free of pressure or duress. Of course, there was no way that they would leave without being pressured to do so. These families had been there hundreds of years, as farmers, primitive artisans, weavers. The Military Governor prohibited them from pursuing their livelihoods, just penned them up until they lost hope of resuming their normal lives. That's when they signed to leave.

I was there and heard their grief. "Our hearts are in pain when we look at the orange trees that we planted with our own hands. Please let us go, let us give water to those trees. God will not be pleased with us if we leave His trees untended." I asked the Military Governor to give them relief, but he said, "No, we want them to leave."

I could no longer be part of this oppression and I left. Those Palestinians who didn't sign up for transfers were taken by force-just put in trucks and dumped in Gaza. About four thousand people were driven from al-Majdal in one way or another. The few who remained were collaborators with the Israeli authorities.

Subsequently, I wrote letters trying to get a government job elsewhere and I got many immediate responses asking me to come for an interview. Then they would discover that my face didn't match my Polish/Ashkenazi name. They would ask if I spoke Yiddish or Polish, and when I said I didn't, they would ask where I came by a Polish name. Desperate for a good job, I would usually say that I thought my great-grandfather was from Poland. I was advised time and again that "we'll give you a call."

Pogue

7th July 2009, 19:24

I support the working class.

Dean

7th July 2009, 19:33

Israel doesn't really fit the schematic because Israel did not privilege persons according to their ethnicity, but according to their wealth (although white Jewish immigrants from Europe tend to be wealthier than Jewish immigrants from Africa, for example, but moneyless white Jewish immigrants were treated in pretty much the same manner moneyless Jewish immigrants from Africa or Asia were treated).

Right - capitalism isn't racist, it just so happens that white people are richer. :rolleyes:

jake williams

7th July 2009, 19:37

If Israel were to attack Iran, that would be the end of the democratic movement there. The Iranian Government has been hit hard by an uprising and knows fine well that more are sure to follow, no matter what it does. An attack by Israel would be all it needs to get the people behind it and shut the opposition up.
This is a really important point. That's exactly what happened when Iraq invaded.

Israel does have colossal military strength, but it's very hard to understand how big a clusterfuck there would be if there was actually a war. I take Iran's threats of retaliation very seriously. In a lot of ways Iran is the last stable country in the immediate region - Iraq to the west, Afghanistan to the east. If there was an attack on Iran - possibly even what's ludicrously viewed in the West as a "limited air strike" - you'd basically have a war zone from the Mediterranean to India.

In any case, Israel is both an imperialist colony and would be the aggressor in any military conflict (which fortunately I think would be very unlikely). I know exactly what side I'd be on, however much I despise the Iranian regime and however heartbreaking it would be to see what would happen to any internal dissent in Iran.

danyboy27

7th July 2009, 23:42

i dont support neither side, i am a spectator, nothing more nothing less.

if there is a conflict this is gonna be pretty weird tho, neither side can really do more than dropping bomb on their ennemies head.

after that both side will aknowledge that this is war they cant win, fews thousand casualities later, a ceasefire will be declared.

graffic

8th July 2009, 17:22

Israel is clearly more violent, repressive and destructive. Iran has not invaded another nation in the last centuries...

Israel is certainly violent when provoked but most forward thinking people in the world would prefer Netanyahu in control of nuclear weapons than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Iran is economically weak but the clerical fascism of the Iranian government is far more backward and repressive than any Israeli politicians views.

Enforced white nationalism is undeniably worse than self-perpetuating political repression which any state uses.

I agree although the two are usually inextricably linked.

Dean

8th July 2009, 17:39

Israel is certainly violent when provoked but most forward thinking people in the world would prefer Netanyahu in control of nuclear weapons than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Iran is economically weak but the clerical fascism of the Iranian government is far more backward and repressive than any Israeli politicians views.

I guess it is arab "provocation" when Israel expells East Jerusalem residents? Israel was provoked so they had to expell arabs and create a Jewish-only state on their land?

Yeah, Israel was provoked, and Palestinians have no excuse. :laugh:

Zurdito

8th July 2009, 17:56

There are reports that the phone wires are burning up between Tel Aviv and
D.C. A military strike by either against the other wouldn't surprise me at this point.

It would surprise me quite a lot, given the recent shift in US policy towards dialogue with "reformist" sectors of the Iranian regime, and the fact that the Obama administration no longer feels able to openly support a military coup in Honduras, let alone military strikes on a powerful state of 70 million people like Iran, at a time whne millions there are supporting the candidate who Obama supports.

Unless you are saying Israel would attack Iran without US backing, and with no pressing motive.:confused:

graffic

8th July 2009, 18:06

I guess it is arab "provocation" when Israel expells East Jerusalem residents?

A measure taken by the Israeli government to protect the Jewish identity of Israel. It's arguably backward because race shouldn't really have to exist in a democracy but then those high up in Palestinian authority want the same for their people.

Israel was provoked so they had to expell arabs and create a Jewish-only state on their land?

The land in the middle east or land anywhere should not really be "owned" by anyone.

As you should already know Israel is not a Jewish only state. There are many Arabs who live there in peace.

Zurdito

8th July 2009, 18:15

As you should already know Israel is not a Jewish only state. There are many Arabs who live there in peace.

Well they live "in peace" as second-class citizens.

Also while is true that Israel is not "Jewish only", it is racially exclusive in that it is committed to maintaining a strong Jewish majority, towards cleansing Arabs from the area and replacing them with Jews, towards expansion into Palestinian territory creating Jewish communtiies to monopolise water and the best land.

graffic

8th July 2009, 21:55

Well they live "in peace" as second-class citizens.

Also while is true that Israel is not "Jewish only", it is racially exclusive in that it is committed to maintaining a strong Jewish majority, towards cleansing Arabs from the area and replacing them with Jews, towards expansion into Palestinian territory creating Jewish communtiies to monopolise water and the best land.

The Arabs of East Jerusalem are in a very different situation to Arab's living in Haifa with Israeli passports. I would like to see every settlement on the West Bank dismantled but I disagree with the premise that the Jewish state is "monopolising" water and stealing the best land for private gain. I know you don't mean it but it sounds awfully close to what hitler said about the capitalist, money grabbing jews - that all they have is bad intentions. Israel is quite clearly no saint but the thing to remember is that there are many people within Israeli borders who want to see peace for both sides and the number of Jews living in Israel who sincerely want an exclusive Jewish state is small. The majority of Jews in Israel are secular with 30% orthodox.

I find it baffling to think that 7 million Jews living in Israel (less than a third are religious) are more of a headache for leftists than the 65 million Iranians living under the iron grip of sharia law with a theocratic government.

Israel's Jewish only policy is a reaction to elements of extreme Arab nationalism that will not tolerate a Jewish state. I can see it getting even worse when you look at the demographics: Palestinians are having far more children than Israeli Jews and due to violence the number of Jews leaving Israel has risen considerably.

Andy Bowden

8th July 2009, 23:00

Graffic do you think expelling Arab Jerusalemites from their houses is wrong or not?

Bear in mind East Jerusalem is only recognised by the US as a part of Israel, the rest of the world recognises it as occupied Palestinian territory.

I know you don't mean it but it sounds awfully close to what hitler said about the capitalist, money grabbing jews - that all they have is bad intentions.

I don't think you can attack anyone for sounding like Hitler when you start justifying Israeli policy on the basis of Muslims having too many babies. Thats what Nick Griffin says in the UK after all.

graffic

9th July 2009, 12:45

graffic

9th July 2009, 12:53

Robert

9th July 2009, 13:41

I find it baffling to think that 7 million Jews living in Israel (less than a third are religious) are more of a headache for leftists than the 65 million Iranians living under the iron grip of sharia law with a theocratic government.

Fascinating, isn't it?

Try this, o ye detractors of Israel: would you rather live in Israel or Iran today? (There's more to a country than its foreign policy.)
How about your mom, girlfriend and sister? Before you answer "neither!", think about stoning, apostasy, the Guardian Council, and please read articles 84, 102, and 129 of the Iranian Penal Code. Enjoy the rest of its medieval lunacy while you look these three in particular.

http://learningpartnership.org/en/resources/legislation/nationallaw/iran

Dean

9th July 2009, 14:47

Expelling anyone on the grounds of race is totally wrong. I don't believe in race and the point is that many people in Israel do not believe in race hence why Israel is the best place to live in the middle east for anyone belonging to an ethnic minority or wanting to practice an obscure religion.

Israeli policy is not justifiable but it doesnt make sense to point the finger solely at Israeli racism when Israel's enemys are doing exactly the same, if not worse.

Oh really? When was the last time that a Palestinian occupied, razed and recolonized an Israeli home? When was the last Israeli civilian casualty?

The enemies of Israel are extremely ineffective, becasue they are by and large the poor, untrained victims of Israeli white nationalism.

Israel is a hugely diverse state of people with a government which allows it's citizens to express what they believe in. Which is why you have extreme anti-zionist orthodox living side by side with biblical zionist nutcases who want to colonise Arab land. The difference with the Islamic world is that all rabid Islamists share the same hatred of Israel based solely on a racist attitude. Islam is a wide faith with different sections within it however one thing they all share is a hatred of the Jewish state. In Israel you have 7 million Jews whom the vast majority are secular and do not care about the colout of anybody's skin. I think we need to work at educating people away from fanatical religion and promote peace and understanding.

I don't give a fuck if they "don't care about race." The Palestinians, who have been fucked for decades, have suffered becase they are not Jewish and they happened to live in the "Holy Land." Big fuckign deal if they use racist rhetoric against Israel. The latter was defined on racist terms and its policies are dictated on the notion of Jewish Nationalism. It is a race-state constantly seeking to maintain a specific ethnic identity. It is simply ludicrous to whine about "anti-Israeli" racism, which is largely ineffective, when Israeli racism exists as a powerful colonizer-force seeking to ethnically cleanse Palestine.

Zurdito

9th July 2009, 19:18

Fascinating, isn't it?

Try this, o ye detractors of Israel: would you rather live in Israel or Iran today? (There's more to a country than its foreign policy.)
How about your mom, girlfriend and sister? Before you answer "neither!", think about stoning, apostasy, the Guardian Council, and please read articles 84, 102, and 129 of the Iranian Penal Code. Enjoy the rest of its medieval lunacy while you look these three in particular.

http://learningpartnership.org/en/resources/legislation/nationallaw/iran

So would you rather live in the Occupied Territories or Iran? Would you rather live in Iran or be one of the 5 million Palestinian refugees forced out by Israel's ethnic cleansing?

Keep in mind that as horriffic as Iran's regime is, the country has a large middle class with a consumeristic lifestyle and access to the best technology and education in the region, an important industrial working class, and the highest living standards and incomes in the region, while the Palestinians, regardless of their class, live in the most degrading levels of poverty, barbarism and oppression you can imagine, imposed on them by Israel...

graffic

9th July 2009, 21:02

Oh really? When was the last time that a Palestinian occupied, razed and recolonized an Israeli home? When was the last Israeli civilian casualty?

The enemies of Israel are extremely ineffective, becasue they are by and large the poor, untrained victims of Israeli white nationalism.

They are ineffective because they have not caused Israeli deaths but they have caused palestinian deaths so in that sense they are counter-productive.

And white nationalism is anti-semitic to it's core so I can't see how the Jewish state is a form of white nationalism. It's nationalism but certainly not white or "aryan" racism.

I don't give a fuck if they "don't care about race." The Palestinians, who have been fucked for decades, have suffered becase they are not Jewish and they happened to live in the "Holy Land." Big fuckign deal if they use racist rhetoric against Israel. The latter was defined on racist terms and its policies are dictated on the notion of Jewish Nationalism. It is a race-state constantly seeking to maintain a specific ethnic identity. It is simply ludicrous to whine about "anti-Israeli" racism, which is largely ineffective, when Israeli racism exists as a powerful colonizer-force seeking to ethnically cleanse Palestine.

I support those living in Israel who want to live in peace with their neighbors and I support Palestinians who want to live in peace with Jews. It's unfair to tar all Israel citizens with the fundamentalist brush when only a minority of the country are zionist fanatics.

The Palestinian authority has repeatedly stated that it wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine of all Jews. Iran and Syria follow this line but with a harder attitude. I think it's bad and I think the Jewish state is bad, I don't want to single out the Jewish state as the prime war criminal but it should get it's fair amount of criticism.

Dean

9th July 2009, 21:44

They are ineffective because they have not caused Israeli deaths but they have caused palestinian deaths so in that sense they are counter-productive.

And white nationalism is anti-semitic to it's core so I can't see how the Jewish state is a form of white nationalism. It's nationalism but certainly not white or "aryan" racism.
OK. Racist nationalism. Big fuckign deal, its no different.

I support those living in Israel who want to live in peace with their neighbors and I support Palestinians who want to live in peace with Jews. It's unfair to tar all Israel citizens with the fundamentalist brush when only a minority of the country are zionist fanatics.

The Palestinian authority has repeatedly stated that it wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine of all Jews. Iran and Syria follow this line but with a harder attitude. I think it's bad and I think the Jewish state is bad, I don't want to single out the Jewish state as the prime war criminal but it should get it's fair amount of criticism.
Well, too bad, they are. You don't have any serious data wherein those poor Israelis were expelled from their homes, walled in, bombed, attacked or systematically ethnically cleansed from their homeland. Of course Israeli citizens aren't the problem; Yehuda Stern and others I know are good examples of this. But nobody is saying they are - we are merely saying that direct, material racism by a colonizer state responsible for thousands of civilian deaths are a bit more concerning than the impotent, occasionally racist rhetoric of a movement seeking emancipation from foreign occupiers.

It's the same reason why Malcolm X's racism wasn't a big deal.

Your ridiculous, notoriously flimsy defense of Israeli racism gets weaker daily, buddy.

graffic

9th July 2009, 22:35

Thankyou Dean, It's been a pleasure. You have taught me a lot

Revy

10th July 2009, 00:00

There are reports that the phone wires are burning up between Tel Aviv and
D.C. A military strike by either against the other wouldn't surprise me at this point.

Does the revolutionary left have a preference as to the Iranian versus Israeli governments, or do you see both as equally bad from a class struggle POV?

My greater sympathies are with Israel and against Iran. (Surprise!)

They are both oppressive powers in the region.

It would be good to see both the Israeli and Iranian regimes fall and replaced with socialist governments that would understand what human rights is and not be blinded by religious fanaticism or nationalist bigotry.

danyboy27

10th July 2009, 01:24

They are both oppressive powers in the region.

It would be good to see both the Israeli and Iranian regimes fall and replaced with socialist governments that would understand what human rights is and not be blinded by religious fanaticism or nationalist bigotry.

i dont think it would change a lot of things beccause statism is..statism.
no matter if its a socialist or a right wing regime leading a state, a state is what it is.

period.

Zurdito

10th July 2009, 01:49

i dont think it would change a lot of things beccause statism is..statism.
no matter if its a socialist or a right wing regime leading a state, a state is what it is.

period.

thanks, you opened my eyes...

danyboy27

10th July 2009, 01:53

thanks, you opened my eyes...

sarcasm appreciated tanks you :D

Robert

10th July 2009, 02:53

So would you rather live in the Occupied Territories or Iran?

Gee, I don't know. Are there medieval muslim lunatics in Palestine who also flog their helpless lesbian daughters before burying them up to their armpits and stoning them to death with rocks big enough to kill but not so big as to cause death after only two strikes?

If not, I choose the occupied territories, assuming I had equal material advantages in both places. (Apples to apples, or should I say ... stones to stones?)

Zurdito

10th July 2009, 13:27

Gee assuming I had equal material advantages in both places.

This is a convenient get out phrase because my whole point is that thanks to Israel, Palestinians cannot have access to the same material conditions as Iranians.

Iran GDP per capita: $12,800 (87th)
West Bank & Gaza Strip: $2,900 (166th)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html

While I don't think you'd find middle class life in urban Tehran very "medieval", the Palestinians live in truly "medieval" or "stone age" or, most barbaric of all, 21st century, conditions, hemmed into ghettos and refugee camps under a state of permanent seige, which doesn't happen to even the worst off Iranians.

Robert

10th July 2009, 14:33

That's reasonable point, my esteemed Z.

But I do not entirely blame Israel for every single problem of the Palestinians, and I also think the other Arab countries might do more for them (as the USA admittedly does for Israel), and still believe the Iranians mistreat their own people more than Israel mistreat the Palestinians. This preposterous flogging and stoning business in Iran is carved into law. You know full well that Israel is the more enlightened and progressive of the two.

As for Iran's GDP per capita, I can only say: congratulations.

Long live Israel.

Dust Bunnies

10th July 2009, 15:26

You know full well that Israel is the more enlightened and progressive of the two.

When it is progressive to constantly invade and terrorize Palestinians. When it is enlightened to do massive genocide and cause many civilian casualties among Palestinians, please tell me. Because last time I checked, invading, terrorizing, and murdering people is not progressive or enlightened.

What some radical Muslims do with their lesbian daughters is unfortunate, but you don't see them flooding into Israel murdering lesbians.

Phalanx

10th July 2009, 16:47

This is a convenient get out phrase because my whole point is that thanks to Israel, Palestinians cannot have access to the same material conditions as Iranians.

Iran GDP per capita: $12,800 (87th)
West Bank & Gaza Strip: $2,900 (166th)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html

While I don't think you'd find middle class life in urban Tehran very "medieval", the Palestinians live in truly "medieval" or "stone age" or, most barbaric of all, 21st century, conditions, hemmed into ghettos and refugee camps under a state of permanent seige, which doesn't happen to even the worst off Iranians.

I think it'd be more accurate if you compared living standards of the middle class in Tel Aviv versus Tehran and the West Bank with Baluchistan. In every country you have areas of wealth and areas of poverty. In any case, I don't think GDP per capita is a fair way to gauge society. Saudi Arabia has a GDP even higher yet they've got one of the most repressive governments in the world. Sharia law rules in both Saudi Arabia and Iran, not that Zionism is any better.

As for potential war, I really don't think it'll happen. I think on the web most of it is being played up by geeks who get their rocks off by thinking up weird Risk-like scenarios.

Zurdito

10th July 2009, 17:39

In every country you have areas of wealth and areas of poverty. In any case, I don't think GDP per capita is a fair way to gauge society. Saudi Arabia has a GDP even higher yet they've got one of the most repressive governments in the world. Sharia law rules in both Saudi Arabia and Iran, not that Zionism is any better.

This is true. Iran is one of the most unequal countries in the world, though scores better on the Gini Index than the USA. What I was trying to show is that it's a contradictory situation, what Trotsky called combined and uneven development, and not some out and out medieval hellhole.

Saudi Arabia is also a special case because so much of the working class is imported (1/3 of residents are non-nationals according to the CIA). I think in the case of Iran, a higher GDP per capita than Brazil or Russia and a lower Gini Coefficient than either of these two "regional powers", tells you something.

As for potential war, I really don't think it'll happen. I think on the web most of it is being played up by geeks who get their rocks off by thinking up weird Risk-like scenarios

It was a possibility under Bush, and probably will be again in the medium term future, but I agree that right now it aint gonna happen, in fact from what I have read this is the farthest we have been from war since 2001.

graffic

10th July 2009, 19:52

OK. Racist nationalism. Big fuckign deal, its no different.

Well, I agree that any form of nationalism and racism is equally wrong, whether it's white or black or extreme zionism. I don't believe the Israeli government is racist, I think they have been pushed into identity politics in order to preserve their own existence. There is of course many racists in Israel, just as any other country.

Well, too bad, they are. You don't have any serious data wherein those poor Israelis were expelled from their homes, walled in, bombed, attacked or systematically ethnically cleansed from their homeland. Of course Israeli citizens aren't the problem; Yehuda Stern and others I know are good examples of this. But nobody is saying they are - we are merely saying that direct, material racism by a colonizer state responsible for thousands of civilian deaths are a bit more concerning than the impotent, occasionally racist rhetoric of a movement seeking emancipation from foreign occupiers.

I don't think the oppression of the palestinians was a prerequisite for the existence of the Jewish state. I don't believe Jews want to hurt Palestinian Arabs. It's so much more complex than that. I blame religion, the belief in race and the fear of change for the animosity on both sides of the border. Progressive class struggle is the only answer in the middle east.

danyboy27

10th July 2009, 23:17

Well, I agree that any form of nationalism and racism is equally wrong, whether it's white or black or extreme zionism. I don't believe the Israeli government is racist, I think they have been pushed into identity politics in order to preserve their own existence. There is of course many racists in Israel, just as any other country.

it depend, if 2/3 people you meet in the street are racist, well you got a serious problem.

I don't think the oppression of the palestinians was a prerequisite for the existence of the Jewish state. I don't believe Jews want to hurt Palestinian Arabs. It's so much more complex than that. I blame religion, the belief in race and the fear of change for the animosity on both sides of the border. Progressive class struggle is the only answer in the middle east.

well, the killing and repression of palestinian was necessary in order to establish israel, just like the killing and repression of indian was necessary to build america and canada.

they where indigenous people and we just stole what was their in the first place, the only difference is that our indegineous folks had arrows and your have ak and rockets.

btw graffic i dont judge you on that, what done is done, we should work toward the future instead of staying in the past. Personally i think a form of unification would be perfect, but the extremist nutjob on both side wont let it happen.