Immortal Monumentsâ€”Mourn the death of the 15th anniversary of President Kim Il Sung [Archive]

China studen

7th July 2009, 04:12

Immortal Monuments
http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/1-1.jpg
On July 8, 1994 the Korean people suffered the greatest national loss, the demise of President
Kim Il Sung.

Fifteen years—over 5 470 days—have passed since then.
In the period not a day, nay, not an hour has passed without the Korean people remembering him and striving to add brilliance to his ideology and achievements. This testifies to the philosophy of history that a great man is eternal along with his ideology and achievements.
Image of Lasting Smile

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/6-1.jpgOn July 19, 1994 the Korean people bid their farewell to the late President.
The over 40-kilometre-long route of Pyongyang the funeral procession was to cover was lined with millions of Pyongyangites who gathered to see off the hearse. The lead car of the procession carried a portrait of the beaming President.
The President had to undergo all manner of hardships while dedicating his all to the service of thttp://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/6-2.jpghe people. He, however, always wore a beaming smile when he met the people.
So the aforesaid portrait of his was a real heart-beater, making them think as if they were seeing him alive.
No, the President is not dead. He’s alive and with us people as he used to, the Koreans thought.
They later erected similar pictures all across the country as a manifest of their belief that he will always be with them.
They visit the pictures whether they are happy or sad, and gather fresh courage from his beaming image that assures them of their bright future.
Memorial Palace

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/7-1.jpgThe Kumsusan Memorial Palace was opened as an expression of all the Korean people’s determination to uphold President Kim Il Sung as their eternal leader. With the palace established, the Korean people have become able to see the President in state.
An uninterrupted stream of visitors flows to the palace day after day.
The first deputy chairman of the Communist Party of Mauritius said, “There are a lot of holy places and popular resorts in the world. But none of them attracts such a great stream of reverential hearts as the Kumsusan Memorial Palace.”
Setup of Juche Era and Day of Sun http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/7-2.jpg

In July 1997 the Central Committee of the Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK), the WPK Central Military Commission, the DPRK National Defence Commission, the DPRK Central People’s Committee and the DPRK Administration Council adopted a joint resolution “On Exalting the Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung’s Revolutionary Life and Great Achievements for All Ages.” The resolution proclaimed that the Juche era “shall be instituted with 1912 as the first year when Comrade Kim Il Sung was born” and that his birthday April 15 “shall be defined as Day of the Sun.”
http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/8-1.jpgIn pursuance of the resolution the Koreans are recording their national annals with 1912 as the first year of the Juche era.
All the Koreans and the world’s progressive people are commemorating the Day of the Sun as their common holiday. The April Spring Friendship Art Festival takes place drawing world-famous entertainers. Around the world different kinds of commemorative meetings and seminars are held; appeals, statements, decisions and the like are adopted and published; colourful functions are organized including film shows, photo shows, artistic performances, sports and cultural meetings.
Institution of Kim Il Sung’s Constitution

1998 was the 50th anniversary of President Kim Il Sung’s founding of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (September 9, 1948) and his election as the head of state.
On September 5 that year the first session of the 10th Supreme People’s Assembly of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea was held. It deliberated the draft of the amended DPRK Socialist Constitution and adopted it as the DPRK Socialist Constitution. The new constitution stipulated it as a rule to uphold
Kim Il Sung, who was the first President of the DPRK, as the eternal President of the Republic and defend and carry forward his idea and achievements.
In this way, after he died, he was acclaimed as the eternal President of the DPRK by dint of the absolute support and trust from the masses of the people.
Tower of Immortality

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/8-2.jpg“The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung will always be with us”—This slogan carries with it the resolution and moral obligation of the Korean people to remember him for ever and ever who was the greatest ever leader of the nation in its 5 000-year-long history, the people’s belief that his achievements will be everlasting along with his august name, and that he will be alive in the hearts of the people for ever.
Their piety finds expression in the ubiquitous towers bearing the above-mentioned slogan, which are called Tower of Immortality.
One of them was erected as a grand monument in Pyongyang in 1997. It is 82 metres high, symbolizing the lifetime of the President, and a Generalissimo star is carved on the top part of the tower, under which is carved the slogan “The great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung will always be with us.” On the left and right sides and at the bottom of the tower are seen sculptures of magnolia and azalea which used to be the President’s favourite flowers, while the two sides of the base are decorated with patterns of flower baskets.
Bearing the slogan in mind the Korean people are invariably loyal to the President and are working hard as one to build a prosperous nation true to their eternal leader’s lifelong wish.

Article by Yom Song Hui
Photos by Ri Song Ik

the last donut of the night

7th July 2009, 04:23

is this a joke?

Anarkiwi

7th July 2009, 04:31

Wtf he was a facist!
this dudes a chinese agent isint he?
China stop fucking socialisim up and tell the truth
your "great socialist nation" is state capitalist.

Robespierre2.0

7th July 2009, 04:49

Revy

7th July 2009, 04:51

"Their piety"? Is he a god? I guess that's why he's still President? Mourn him if you like, but he cannot live. Perhaps his image, or his memory, or his legacy, but he cannot physically live.

Monuments are also not immortal. The Juche calendar is also insane. It puts "Year One" as 1912, Kim Il-sung was born on April 15, 1912, which just so happens to be the exact day that the Titanic sank.

Maybe the personality cult was actually less pervasive under him though than it is under Kim Jong-il.

khad

7th July 2009, 04:52

No matter how much Kim degenerated with his Juche nonsense in his later years, one must give credit where it is due. He was a guerrilla leader and anti-Japanese hero, a fearless survivor and patriot.

gorillafuck

7th July 2009, 04:53

this dudes a chinese agent isint he?
Nobody here is a fucking "chinese agent" or "zionist agent"

Anarkiwi

7th July 2009, 04:58

Nobody here is a fucking "chinese agent" or "zionist agent"

Dont be so sure!
what makes you think Counter Revolutionarys wouldent infiltrate a leftist website?
and i dont just mean o.i's either the kind of ones who pretend to be something they are not.

khad

7th July 2009, 05:03

Dont be so sure!
what makes you think Counter Revolutionarys wouldent infiltrate a leftist website?
and i dont just mean o.i's either the kind of ones who pretend to be something they are not.
Shut up, kid. We could ask you the same question after the senselessness of your capitalism thread.

gorillafuck

7th July 2009, 05:06

Dont be so sure!
what makes you think Counter Revolutionarys wouldent infiltrate a leftist website?
and i dont just mean o.i's either the kind of ones who pretend to be something they are not.
Capitalist governments have more important things to do than get agents to post on Revleft.

Anarkiwi

7th July 2009, 05:14

Shut up, kid. We could ask you the same question after the senselessness of your capitalism thread.

Im an agent of freedom of choice,
freedom of speech,
and freedom of expression.

#FF0000

7th July 2009, 05:24

Im an agent of freedom of choice,
freedom of speech,
and freedom of expression.

You're a guy who takes himself way too seriously.

Anarkiwi

7th July 2009, 05:26

You're a guy who takes himself way too seriously.

Im a revolutionary where is room to not be serious?
this thing we call politics aint fun!

gorillafuck

7th July 2009, 05:43

Im a revolutionary where is room to not be serious?
Being a revolutionary doesn't mean you have to act pretentious.

Anarkiwi

7th July 2009, 05:49

Being a revolutionary doesn't mean you have to act pretentious.

No it doesent but i choose to just like che.

gorillafuck

7th July 2009, 05:52

No it doesent but i choose to just like che.
:laugh:

RedScare

7th July 2009, 05:58

He put far too much into his personality cult, and was far too much a Stalinist for my taste.

AnthArmo

7th July 2009, 06:08

I'll honour him by peeing on his corpse.

Saorsa

7th July 2009, 06:16

In July 1997 the Central Committee of the Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK), the WPK Central Military Commission, the DPRK National Defence Commission, the DPRK Central People’s Committee and the DPRK Administration Council adopted a joint resolution “On Exalting the Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung’s Revolutionary Life and Great Achievements for All Ages.” The resolution proclaimed that the Juche era “shall be instituted with 1912 as the first year when Comrade Kim Il Sung was born” and that his birthday April 15 “shall be defined as Day of the Sun.”

How revolting.

7th July 2009, 07:12

Mourn the death of the 15th anniversary of President Kim Il Sung

No

LOLseph Stalin

7th July 2009, 07:24

Let's see. I admire the man for the fact that he stopped the spread of Imperialism into North Korea. He also established what began as Socialism, but sadly degraded into something worse. DPRK now is just a bureaucratic state that has hardcore personality cult issues and where the party is placed above the common citizens. Other than that, I can't say I like Kim Il-Sung. He left his overly paranoid son to run the country after his death which has now led to other problems. Because of nuclear weapons, the DPRK is seen as an evil country(hence them wanting to be armed), but I guess that makes sense when you're one loner country trying to survive in a world of Capitalists who want to destroy you. Also, the idea of Juche itself doesn't seem too great when it demands absolutely loyalty to a party and a personality cult is formed around the party's leader.

robbo203

7th July 2009, 11:14

Never mind the reactionary bollocks...

Long live the memory of Comrade Kim Il-Sung, lodestar of the revolution, prodigious humanist, architect of souls, supreme commander of the Korean People's Army, friend of the people, and so on and so on...

In all seriousness, the man was a hero. If it weren't for him, or rather, the mass movement that he led, Korea would be just another neo-colonial whorehouse for U.S. businessmen.

I cannot think of anything that is more "reactionary bollocks" than to idolise anyone in this fashion, least of all someone who was afterall a vicious state capitalist tyrant. Its enough to make you want to heave. What sort of sick mentality is it that can think that the only alternative to turning Korea into "another neo-colonial whorehouse for U.S. businessmen" is to glorify a disgusting despot in this way.

rednordman

7th July 2009, 13:53

I cannot think of anything that is more "reactionary bollocks" than to idolise anyone in this fashion, least of all someone who was afterall a vicious state capitalist tyrant. Its enough to make you want to heave. What sort of sick mentality is it that can think that the only alternative to turning Korea into "another neo-colonial whorehouse for U.S. businessmen" is to glorify a disgusting despot in this way.yes, but C.Mantis does have a small point here. Korea stood up to capitalism and then fascism at a time, when they where so poor, you could not blame them for it. Good guy or bad guy, he acted as symbol for this resistance, and he was an excellent gurilla fighter.
Though N Korea is now a bleek place, when you look at the history, is understandable why they are the way they are. Hero worshipping him is going too far though.

Josef Balin

7th July 2009, 13:57

How revolting.
To be fair, he wasn't the one who did that.

And he was a revolutionary and an anti-imperialist, I can respect that much. I can also mourn his death, in the sense the Korean people were better off under his leadership.

Guerrilla22

7th July 2009, 15:23

http://www.kcckp.net/images/periodic/todaykorea/2009/07/8-2.jpg

This looks like it was drawn by artist. Does this glorious tower actually exist?

scarletghoul

7th July 2009, 15:30

http://www.revleft.com/vb/picture.php?groupid=164&pictureid=3031
The nation unites in collective masturbation for the memory of the Great Leader

robbo203

7th July 2009, 17:06

yes, but C.Mantis does have a small point here. Korea stood up to capitalism and then fascism at a time, when they where so poor, you could not blame them for it. Good guy or bad guy, he acted as symbol for this resistance, and he was an excellent gurilla fighter.
Though N Korea is now a bleek place, when you look at the history, is understandable why they are the way they are. Hero worshipping him is going too far though.

No you are dead wrong here. North Korea did not stand up to capitalism. It was and is a capitalist state. It merely stood up to another capitalist state (s). Capitalism was not the issue at all in this inter-capitalist rivalry

khad

7th July 2009, 17:11

No you are dead wrong here. North Korea did not stand up to capitalism. It was and is a capitalist state. It merely stood up to another capitalist state (s). Capitalism was not the issue at all in this inter-capitalist rivalry
As shown before, even the Paris Commune was bourgeois by your standards.

7th July 2009, 17:44

I wonder what they use to build those towers of immortality.
You ban religion and you end up with a living god in a position of political authority, which frankly seems a bit more dangerous.

Coggeh

7th July 2009, 19:14

The Paris commune was not a little island of communism in a sea of capitalism that is true enough. What of it? Whats your point? If you are seriously suggesting here that North Korea is anything other than a state capitalist regime - and a pretty brutal one at that - perhaps you would care to provide some evidence to back up this flimsy claim
It isn't state capitalist .Its a deformed workers state , N.Korea has not undergone the the changes that causes it to be capitalist , their isn't private enterprise for a start , everything is controlled by a bureaucratic state bar a micro-state of small shops and farms , not enough to warrant a label of 'State-capitalism'.Workers benefit from the free health care , compulsory education etc but never held any political sway in N.Korea .

On the point of Kim-Jong Il , firstly , it is idiotic from so called 'marxists' earlier in the thread to have this cult of personality of Kim Jong il , not only for the sickening part that he was a brutal dictator who was a complete an utter idiot to say the least (Changing the modern N.K health system into a system that concentrated on traditional medicine e.g BS medicine) the fact is that leaders and dictators don't bring about revolutions , they don't bring about socialism , workers do , and the Korean Dictatorship have repeatadly attacked workers left right and centre in terms of basic human rights of freedom and the conditions they live in .

ZeroNowhere

7th July 2009, 20:31

It isn't state capitalist .Its a deformed workers stateA "workers' state" (if used to mean the 'dictatorship of the proletariat') presupposes capitalism. A "deformed workers' state" is used to describe a state in which the political rule of the producer apparently co-exists with the perpetuation of his social slavery, which is a silly idea.

everything is controlled by a bureaucratic state bar a micro-state of small shops and farms , not enough to warrant a label of 'State-capitalism'Except that the state can function perfectly well as a capitalist producer.

Workers benefit from the free health care , compulsory education etcIf children benefit from compulsory education, then it must be a pretty fucked up place, eh?

Revy

7th July 2009, 20:54

Compulsory education? How does the fact that they take truancy seriously make them at all less capitalist? :blink:

A bureaucratic state controlling the economy, that is what is meant by state capitalism.

If workers never held any political sway, how is it a workers' state? :blink:

Demogorgon

7th July 2009, 21:35

I thought about trying to satirise this a bit, but then realised that nothing can top the real thing here. How can any sane person possibly defend this appalling propaganda and creepy attempts to turn the man into a God.

Kwisatz Haderach

7th July 2009, 22:11

No, the President is not dead. He’s alive and with us people as he used to, the Koreans thought.
They later erected similar pictures all across the country as a manifest of their belief that he will always be with them.
And then his broken body was entombed within the Golden Throne, which sustains his spirit and enables him to continue in his role as the Father and Guardian of Mankind.

n0thing

7th July 2009, 23:22

oh revleft...

OneNamedNameLess

7th July 2009, 23:32

OneNamedNameLess

7th July 2009, 23:34

[QUOTE=Cmde. Mantis;1485028]Long live the memory of Comrade Kim Il-Sung, lodestar of the revolution, prodigious humanist, architect of souls, supreme commander of the Korean People's Army, friend of the people, and so on and so on...QUOTE]

:lol:

Architect of souls... oh Dear Leader!

Demogorgon

8th July 2009, 00:50

And then his broken body was entombed within the Golden Throne, which sustains his spirit and enables him to continue in his role as the Father and Guardian of Mankind.
*Chuckle* No doubt sustained by the souls of his adoring people.

Jorge Miguel

8th July 2009, 01:50

RIP

http://nickgilmartin.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/kim_il_sung1.jpg

scarletghoul

8th July 2009, 02:16

I can dig Kim, but juche is kinda lame

either way north korea is a proletarian state and should be so regarded

Josef Balin

8th July 2009, 02:20

Will all you DPRK crackpots stop attempting to justify this please? I detest the current system in NK as much as capitalism and will not do a Chavez and support Kim Il Sung for sharing common enemies with us and being anti imperialist.
What a ridiculous, emotional appeal. You didn't even debate, you just *****ed.
#1: No one cares what you detest. Beyond the whole no one cares about what any of us here have to say, I'm sure everyone actually on revleft can see you're not too smart.*
#2: Well you probably detest the NK system as much as capitalism because, again, you're not very smart. Assuming you come from a materialist point of view, you must know that politics are the result of economics. Regardless of the political structure, the NK state itself runs one of the most socialist economies in the world (I suggest you visit Pyongyang on a four day trip or read a report of someone who has, very beautiful city with the same conditions as the first world, except they have rolling blackouts a minute at a time or so but hey weed isn't illegal, I have no idea how you'd get any over there though). There is no starvation in NK (anymore), and while poverty exists in NK, it's worlds better than other states. Compare poverty in NK, which classifies as having a place to live and sleep, at least two meals a day, water, clothing, free healthcare (however it can be hard to get to, taking up to a day to get there) and (although I'm tempted to say this is the worst thing the NK state has done) a heavily propagandized education system to Filipino, Indian, Burmese, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc. poverty which is inconsistent in delivering - and never promises - such things. Also, NK has a socialist land use system - if you find an unused area of land, you can use it.

As a side note, I imagine we'd only get a thread where they say things like "NK IS AS BAD AS CAPITALISM" and stuff like that in the West, where practically no one has been. Lots of workers from India and China go to NK for short periods of time and come back, I've never spoken to one who said they liked their capitalist system more.

*Regardless of "State Capitalist", "Degenerated Workers State", "Bureaucratized Collectivism", etc. theories you may uphold to, certainly you see this guy doesn't have the intellectual fortitude to mount an attack on the position himself and used an appeal to emotions, and a really shitty one at that.

I wonder what they use to build those towers of immortality.
You ban religion and you end up with a living god in a position of political authority, which frankly seems a bit more dangerous.
When did they ban religion? Of the three allowed parties, one is the Chondoist Chongu party (Korean religion), the Juche Atheist Workers Party, and the Protestant Social Democratic Party. They've both been pretty much absorbed into the WP, but they still officially hold their religious stances.

This is the kind of shit that pisses me off, the kind of shit that shouldn't be allowed. When people just make shit up for the purpose of making shit up.

fabilius

8th July 2009, 02:22

A proletariat with an elite upperclass enjoying western luxuries and an underclass not enjoying so much.

Josef Balin

8th July 2009, 02:49

A proletariat with an elite upperclass enjoying western luxuries and an underclass not enjoying so much.
They do not enjoy western luxuries. Unless you're willing to take your news from western reports which come from unsubstantiated reports by "defectors" who can't prove anything they say and were paid for their "story" by government officials of a country that is at war with North Korea.

Salyut

8th July 2009, 04:42

I say! That monument...thingie is rather ah, phallic in nature.

brb paging zombie Freud

LOLseph Stalin

8th July 2009, 05:20

You know who else was an anti-Japanese hero? Truman. He actually managed to nuke Japan, thus making him more anti-Japanese than Kim. Does that mean he's a bigger hero?

Well that is a rather norrow-minded thing to say. Truman was against the Japanese, but in a completely different way. Truman nuked the Japanese in order to save the lives of troops while not caring about ordinary Japanese civilians. The Japanese were the enemy of the Americans so obviously Truman would be against them. Kim Il-Sung on the other hand was Anti-Japanese because they were imperialist. He actually helped protect Korea against an imperialistic invasion by Japan, so yes Kim Jung-Il is a bigger hero than Truman who would have invaded Japan for Capitalist gain rather than protecting against Capitalism.

Revy

8th July 2009, 09:07

I say! That monument...thingie is rather ah, phallic in nature.

brb paging zombie Freud

So is the Washington Monument. :p

robbo203

8th July 2009, 11:09

Regardless of the political structure, the NK state itself runs one of the most socialist economies in the world (I suggest you visit Pyongyang on a four day trip or read a report of someone who has, very beautiful city with the same conditions as the first world, except they have rolling blackouts a minute at a time or so but hey weed isn't illegal, I have no idea how you'd get any over there though). There is no starvation in NK (anymore), and while poverty exists in NK, it's worlds better than other states. Compare poverty in NK, which classifies as having a place to live and sleep, at least two meals a day, water, clothing, free healthcare (however it can be hard to get to, taking up to a day to get there) .

Tut tut. Anyone who believes that NK runs "one of the most socialist economies in the world" hasnt got a clue about socialism - or capitalism. In NK there is a system of generalised wage labour which for Marxists is synonymous with capitalism. There is commodity production and markets. There are profits and capital accumulation - all clear indicators of the existence of capitalism. Yes, these things are all largely under the aegis of the state with a small class of state capitalists collectively owning the means of production through their control of the state rather than private capitalists - but this precisely what makes it a system of state run capitalism.

Now lets scotch some of the myths peddled by these starry eyed supporters of this repugnant regime. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union the NK economy went into free fall having been propped by aid from the USSR and China. In 1996 some 600,000 people perished through famine. The regime was forced to relax some of its controls in the face of the growth of the black economy born out of desparation. Like other capitalist states it sought to gain hard currency by various ruses including the export of military weapons like the scud missiles and to open up social economic zones in which a (more) free enterprise version of capitalism could operate. It speaks volumes for the so called "socialist" credientials of the NK regime that it could permit the rampant exploitation of Korean workers in these special economic zone. But of course like the ruling class everywhere they couldnt care a toss about the workers when the lure of profit beckons. An interesting report on conditions in one such economic zone appears here
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,517847,00.html

What is noticeable is that, although the official wage of workers in such zones - $57.50 a month - is far less than than workers get in South Korea and even iChina , it is far higher than what workers can expect to receive outside the special economic zones - in fact 3 times higher! So we are talking about the official average wage in NK being about 19 dollars a month . So much for the ridiculous claim that "while poverty exists in NK, it's worlds better than other states". The NK is actually very near the bottom of the world league table in terms of poverty rates. The conditions that the working class of north korea have to contend with are pretty miserable and contrast sharply with those of the elite who have first priority when it comes to rationed goods. Just as in the Soviet Union, the the managers of state enterprises and governmental elite has been able to make effective use of their power and patronage to take full advantage of the expanding free market and enrich themselves further at the expense of the workers. Yes, workers do have certain benefits like free healthcare - as is normal in many other capitalist states in which the so called social wage is offset by a reduction in the nominal wage to maintain profit levels - but the actual standard of healthcare is pretty abominable as even Josef Balin seems to concede.

To calls the NK some kind of "proletarian" state is just a sick joke. It is rigidly controlled state capitalist dictatorship in which the proletariat is relentlessly bombarded by propaganda from the regime and all opposition to the regime is systematically rooted out. The proletarians have no say in the way this regime is run

Genuine socialists welcome the day when this disgusting regime is swept away. Frankly it cannot come too soon

fatpanda

8th July 2009, 13:09

he was way too authoritarian and the personality cult is a too extreme for my taste
but he was much better than maniac kim jong il or the fascist motherfuckers syngman rhee,park chung hee or chun doo hwan in the south

fatpanda

8th July 2009, 13:10

is there an anarchosyndicalist movement in the republic of korea(south korea)?any genuine anti authoritarian leftist movement?

scarletghoul

8th July 2009, 13:25

I think there are quite a few socialists in the south, but the movements get suppressed pretty bad

bricolage

8th July 2009, 13:34

I think there are quite a few socialists in the south, but the movements get suppressed pretty bad

There's some interesting stuff about the suppression of unions in South Korea on youtube.

n0thing

8th July 2009, 14:29

I've read about a sort of resistance movement near the Chinese border. But considering that 1 out of every 25 North Koreans is a soldier, it's probably near-impossible to get anything done.

And god you Stalinists are impossible to argue with. Everything good about North Korea is accepted, but everything bad is western propaganda. The USSR has been gone 20 years, but the mindset still prevails.

The Ungovernable Farce

8th July 2009, 15:07

Well that is a rather norrow-minded thing to say. Truman was against the Japanese, but in a completely different way. Truman nuked the Japanese in order to save the lives of troops while not caring about ordinary Japanese civilians. The Japanese were the enemy of the Americans so obviously Truman would be against them. Kim Il-Sung on the other hand was Anti-Japanese because they were imperialist. He actually helped protect Korea against an imperialistic invasion by Japan, so yes Kim Jung-Il is a bigger hero than Truman who would have invaded Japan for Capitalist gain rather than protecting against Capitalism.
So, Kim Il-Sung's a hero because he fought against the Japanese in the national interests of the Korean state, but Truman and Roosevelt aren't heores for fighting against the Japanese in the national interests of the American state? Forgive me for not seeing the difference here. Seriously, do none of you see a problem with a Democratic People's Republic where the Supreme Leader hands down absolute power to his son? If Queen Liz renamed herself the Glorious Proletarian Queen of the Socialist Worker's Republic of Great Britain, would you get this enthusiastic about her?

rednordman

8th July 2009, 15:23

And god you Stalinists are impossible to argue with. Everything good about North Korea is accepted, but everything bad is western propaganda. The USSR has been gone 20 years, but the mindset still prevails.But thats not true, alot of the 'stalinists' have often admitted that things are certainly not good (awful even). Ok, they might sound a bit partisan at times, but trust me, its more a reaction to the one-dimensional view of the rest of the left (and political spectrum for that matter) that it is some kind of 'super-gulag', that is so ardent is actually does get in the way of the facts.

Its interesting that you accuse the stalinists of having the old cold-war mindset. I actually think the west (especially UK and USA) still have a similar attitude too at times. Just look at Russias war with Georgia last year. Immidiatly the headlines where full of 'evil russia' tags (and that was from the centre-left learning media also, like the guardian). Turns out it was a bit more complicated than that, so the cold war mindset still isnt dead, dispite all these friendly little P.R stunts between Obama and Putin.

This also happens to NK too, i was watching skynews the other day and they mentioned that "Communist State North Korea IS planning to fire rockets at Hawaii!!" I thought that was just a scaremongering story from a japanese newspaper. And was assumed just to be total rubbish (i hope it is).

(sorry for straying off-topic there)

LOLseph Stalin

8th July 2009, 17:55

So, Kim Il-Sung's a hero because he fought against the Japanese in the national interests of the Korean state, but Truman and Roosevelt aren't heores for fighting against the Japanese in the national interests of the American state? Forgive me for not seeing the difference here. Seriously, do none of you see a problem with a Democratic People's Republic where the Supreme Leader hands down absolute power to his son? If Queen Liz renamed herself the Glorious Proletarian Queen of the Socialist Worker's Republic of Great Britain, would you get this enthusiastic about her?

Like I said, Kim Il-Sung was fighting against Imperialism. Truman was just trying to win a war. Americans don't oppose Imperialism, but actually encourage it. Let's see. They supported the creation of Israel which is in Palestinian territory, invaded Vietnam to stop the Communists who were fighting against French imperialists, and invaded Iraq for their own personal interests. Now you tell me who the hero is. Hey, I'm not a huge fan of Kim myself, but I'll defend him if people are saying he's the same as any American imperialist.

Demogorgon

8th July 2009, 18:44

They do not enjoy western luxuries. Unless you're willing to take your news from western reports which come from unsubstantiated reports by "defectors" who can't prove anything they say and were paid for their "story" by government officials of a country that is at war with North Korea.
Yet they are the only sources other than those controlled by the North Korean Government. If North Korea is different to the way it is portrayed, why don't they demonstrate it? Why are they so keen to cover up their society? Why do the foreign media rarely get in? Why do foreign visitors have their movements tightly controlled and have to be accompanied by supervisors?

If North Korea was better than it is being claimes, surely it would be happy to display itself to the world in an open manner rather than through darefully controlling what is presented?

scarletghoul

8th July 2009, 19:06

An empire attacking another empire is not anti-imperialism, The Ungovernable Farce.

n0thing

8th July 2009, 20:22

Like I said, Kim Il-Sung was fighting against Imperialism. Truman was just trying to win a war. Americans don't oppose Imperialism, but actually encourage it. Let's see. They supported the creation of Israel which is in Palestinian territory, invaded Vietnam to stop the Communists who were fighting against French imperialists, and invaded Iraq for their own personal interests. Now you tell me who the hero is. Hey, I'm not a huge fan of Kim myself, but I'll defend him if people are saying he's the same as any American imperialist.
Anything but imperialism, right? Even Totalitarianism?

Bright Banana Beard

9th July 2009, 01:30

What, all Americans? Every American ever? That's a pretty sweeping generalisation. Lovely sidestepping, it is not? He referring to the American government, are your mind that fucking stupid?

True. Very, very true. So why are you all so keen on the soviet empire?That is because your an idiot as we said nothing about soviet empire. So please point me where is the business that is controlling North Korea? I do not see China have any operating or transnational business functioning in Korea, nor do they have controls on any land.

No. He was fighting for the interests of the aspiring Chinese bureaucracy.Actually he had majority of Korean supporting him because the Korea War, USA managed to turn North Korea into desert barren land. When the USA invaded, many Chinese volunteered to fight for the liberation of Korea, however, the stalemate holds on to this day.

Will do. :)Thank you.

The Ungovernable Farce

9th July 2009, 01:45

Lovely sidestepping, it is not? He referring to the American government, are your mind that fucking stupid?
He didn't say the American government, he said Americans.

Actually he had majority of Korean supporting him because the Korea War, USA managed to turn North Korea into desert barren land.
What? Just what? What war are we even talking about at this point?

LOLseph Stalin

9th July 2009, 03:09

What, all Americans? Every American ever? That's a pretty sweeping generalisation.

Kim fought against Japanese imperialism because it clashed with the interests of the Korean state; Truman fought against Japanese imperialism because it clashed with the interests of the American state. Kim said he was doing it for socialism; Truman said he was doing it for freedom and democracy. Since I like socialism and freedom, why should I like one more than the other?

Are you actually that simple minded to not realize I was actually referring to the American government when I said they encourage Imperialism? Sure there are American citizens who support it too, but there are Americans who don't. Also, what Truman did was not fighting for freedom. The Japanese weren't even invading America. He was fighting them simply to win a war and get influence over Japan rather than the Soviet Union. He was willing to kill Japanese citizens in order to do that too and used the Atom bombs as a fear tactic. All Kim was trying to do was keep invading forces out of his own country. So go ahead and support the US, but I'm letting you know you'll also be supporting Imperialism. Take a look at US history. Much of it consists of Imperialism.

khad

9th July 2009, 03:39

Are you actually that simple minded to not realize I was actually referring to the American government when I said they encourage Imperialism? Sure there are American citizens who support it too, but there are Americans who don't. Also, what Truman did was not fighting for freedom. The Japanese weren't even invading America. He was fighting them simply to win a war and get influence over Japan rather than the Soviet Union. He was willing to kill Japanese citizens in order to do that too and used the Atom bombs as a fear tactic. All Kim was trying to do was keep invading forces out of his own country. So go ahead and support the US, but I'm letting you know you'll also be supporting Imperialism. Take a look at US history. Much of it consists of Imperialism.
Kim fought to defend the Korean, Chinese, and Soviet peoples from fascist aggression. I never said I respected Juche, but for this, I respect him to the end.

LOLseph Stalin

9th July 2009, 03:41

Exactly, and for TUF to say he was Imperialist is bullshit.

The Ungovernable Farce

9th July 2009, 12:59

Sure there are American citizens who support it too, but there are Americans who don't.Congratulations. You've started to develop some kind of a class analysis.

Also, what Truman did was not fighting for freedom.He said he was, though. If we're going to take what Kim said about himself at face value, why wouldn't we do the same for Truman?

So go ahead and support the US, but I'm letting you know you'll also be supporting Imperialism. Take a look at US history. Much of it consists of Imperialism.I don't support the US. I know full well it's an imperialist power. I just don't see why other imperialist powers and their proxies deserve any more support.

Now excuse me while I go rape some *****es.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:19

is this a joke?

Yes, is this a fuck you mother joke !

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:23

Wtf he was a facist!
this dudes a chinese agent isint he?
China stop fucking socialisim up and tell the truth
your "great socialist nation" is state capitalist.

1, your are a fascist dog ! Only the lackeys of imperialism will be the Korean slander.

2, you are an agent of the Western bourgeoisie.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:25

He put far too much into his personality cult, and was far too much a Stalinist for my taste.

Guevara had visited North Korea. He was Mao Zedong's China and North Korea very much. You can object to North Korea, but you do not Guevara's image theft!

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:27

How revolting.

Continue to "revolting" it! You preferably as soon as possible "revolting" dead.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:32

I cannot think of anything that is more "reactionary bollocks" than to idolise anyone in this fashion, least of all someone who was afterall a vicious state capitalist tyrant. Its enough to make you want to heave. What sort of sick mentality is it that can think that the only alternative to turning Korea into "another neo-colonial whorehouse for U.S. businessmen" is to glorify a disgusting despot in this way.

"Tyrant." Let us look at the bourgeois lackeys of the West is so silly and subjective. How can you not asked the Korean people their leaders how to assess it? "Tyrant"? To continue to ignore the fact that you fart!

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:34

http://www.revleft.com/vb/picture.php?groupid=164&pictureid=3031
The nation unites in collective masturbation for the memory of the Great Leader

Only the mentally handicapped before the Western capitalist running dog masturbation, because you impotence.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:36

No you are dead wrong here. North Korea did not stand up to capitalism. It was and is a capitalist state. It merely stood up to another capitalist state (s). Capitalism was not the issue at all in this inter-capitalist rivalry

Ignorance！
Do you know how to divide the social system? Economic base determines the superstructure!

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:38

Ahem... I think you should be asking yourself that question. I wasnt talking about Kim. I was asking whether or not you thought North Korea was capitalist and to provide evdience if you thought it was not. Oh and please can we quit the little temper tantrums, eh?

Trotskyists only one category (Table interviews left, right in essence), will negate everything the socialist state is "socialism."

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:41

It isn't state capitalist .Its a deformed workers state , N.Korea has not undergone the the changes that causes it to be capitalist , their isn't private enterprise for a start , everything is controlled by a bureaucratic state bar a micro-state of small shops and farms , not enough to warrant a label of 'State-capitalism'.Workers benefit from the free health care , compulsory education etc but never held any political sway in N.Korea .

On the point of Kim-Jong Il , firstly , it is idiotic from so called 'marxists' earlier in the thread to have this cult of personality of Kim Jong il , not only for the sickening part that he was a brutal dictator who was a complete an utter idiot to say the least (Changing the modern N.K health system into a system that concentrated on traditional medicine e.g BS medicine) the fact is that leaders and dictators don't bring about revolutions , they don't bring about socialism , workers do , and the Korean Dictatorship have repeatadly attacked workers left right and centre in terms of basic human rights of freedom and the conditions they live in .

Do you have any theory to support the fallacy that you do? Public ownership and planned economy determines the nature of North Korea's social system.

Only a complete idiot would try to smear North Korea, an attempt to disintegrate the people of faith in socialism.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:45

You know who else was an anti-Japanese hero? Truman. He actually managed to nuke Japan, thus making him more anti-Japanese than Kim. Does that mean he's a bigger hero?

Japan's fight against the United States only between the dog-eat-dog of imperialism.

Kim Il Sung, is through their own hard work, braving the threat of death, to defeat the Japanese imperialists.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:47

A proletariat with an elite upperclass enjoying western luxuries and an underclass not enjoying so much.

Ignorance of the characteristics of the West - chatter on the rumors.

The Ungovernable Farce

9th July 2009, 14:49

Yes, is this a fuck you mother joke !
That's my favourite kind of joke.

Only the mentally handicapped before the Western capitalist running dog masturbation, because you impotence.
This is the best post ever.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:52

Tut tut. Anyone who believes that NK runs "one of the most socialist economies in the world" hasnt got a clue about socialism - or capitalism. In NK there is a system of generalised wage labour which for Marxists is synonymous with capitalism. There is commodity production and markets. There are profits and capital accumulation - all clear indicators of the existence of capitalism. Yes, these things are all largely under the aegis of the state with a small class of state capitalists collectively owning the means of production through their control of the state rather than private capitalists - but this precisely what makes it a system of state run capitalism.

Now lets scotch some of the myths peddled by these starry eyed supporters of this repugnant regime. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union the NK economy went into free fall having been propped by aid from the USSR and China. In 1996 some 600,000 people perished through famine. The regime was forced to relax some of its controls in the face of the growth of the black economy born out of desparation. Like other capitalist states it sought to gain hard currency by various ruses including the export of military weapons like the scud missiles and to open up social economic zones in which a (more) free enterprise version of capitalism could operate. It speaks volumes for the so called "socialist" credientials of the NK regime that it could permit the rampant exploitation of Korean workers in these special economic zone. But of course like the ruling class everywhere they couldnt care a toss about the workers when the lure of profit beckons. An interesting report on conditions in one such economic zone appears here
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,517847,00.html

What is noticeable is that, although the official wage of workers in such zones - $57.50 a month - is far less than than workers get in South Korea and even iChina , it is far higher than what workers can expect to receive outside the special economic zones - in fact 3 times higher! So we are talking about the official average wage in NK being about 19 dollars a month . So much for the ridiculous claim that "while poverty exists in NK, it's worlds better than other states". The NK is actually very near the bottom of the world league table in terms of poverty rates. The conditions that the working class of north korea have to contend with are pretty miserable and contrast sharply with those of the elite who have first priority when it comes to rationed goods. Just as in the Soviet Union, the the managers of state enterprises and governmental elite has been able to make effective use of their power and patronage to take full advantage of the expanding free market and enrich themselves further at the expense of the workers. Yes, workers do have certain benefits like free healthcare - as is normal in many other capitalist states in which the so called social wage is offset by a reduction in the nominal wage to maintain profit levels - but the actual standard of healthcare is pretty abominable as even Josef Balin seems to concede.

To calls the NK some kind of "proletarian" state is just a sick joke. It is rigidly controlled state capitalist dictatorship in which the proletariat is relentlessly bombarded by propaganda from the regime and all opposition to the regime is systematically rooted out. The proletarians have no say in the way this regime is run

Genuine socialists welcome the day when this disgusting regime is swept away. Frankly it cannot come too soon

How do you prove that 60 million deaths? So I have been stressed: the debate with you is meaningless.

Stupid because you do not even know that they have been brainwashed by the bourgeois media.

You somewhat scientific spirit? Your logic, the ability to think is normal for you?

Guerrilla22

9th July 2009, 14:55

China Studen: ignore these bourgeois people from the west. Their ignorance is overwhelming.

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:55

China studen

9th July 2009, 14:57

I think there are quite a few socialists in the south, but the movements get suppressed pretty bad

http://jinbocorea.org/

http://bchy.jinbo.net/

http://hcy.jinbo.net/zbxe/

China studen

9th July 2009, 15:04

Yet they are the only sources other than those controlled by the North Korean Government. If North Korea is different to the way it is portrayed, why don't they demonstrate it? Why are they so keen to cover up their society? Why do the foreign media rarely get in? Why do foreign visitors have their movements tightly controlled and have to be accompanied by supervisors?

If North Korea was better than it is being claimes, surely it would be happy to display itself to the world in an open manner rather than through darefully controlling what is presented?

1, your ignorance really ridiculous. Your logic: You have very little news that North Korea, so do you think North Korea is "closed." I must correct: the Internet, a large number of objective information on the website of North Korea. Your own "do not know" does not mean "no."

2, hostile forces to subvert all the time looking forward to North Korea. North Korea is restricted to tourists in order to more effectively prevent the penetration of the enemy.

China studen

9th July 2009, 15:10

What, all Americans? Every American ever? That's a pretty sweeping generalisation.

Kim fought against Japanese imperialism because it clashed with the interests of the Korean state; Truman fought against Japanese imperialism because it clashed with the interests of the American state. Kim said he was doing it for socialism; Truman said he was doing it for freedom and democracy. Since I like socialism and freedom, why should I like one more than the other?

True. Very, very true. So why are you all so keen on the soviet empire?

No. He was fighting for the interests of the aspiring Chinese bureaucracy.

Will do. :)

Wrong. Obscures the fundamental difference between you. Japan is a U.S. attack on the internal contradictions of the bourgeoisie. Early in World War II the United States did not even consider participating in the war. Kim Il Sung is the resistance struggle of the proletariat to the bourgeoisie. Thus, Kim Il Sung, the struggle is just, is derived from fundamental contradiction - the class struggle.

The Ungovernable Farce

9th July 2009, 16:01

China Studen: ignore these bourgeois people from the west. Their ignorance is overwhelming.
Where exactly are you from?

Spud

9th July 2009, 16:15

Are you insane?

Guerrilla22

9th July 2009, 16:21

Where exactly are you from?

the Zoo.

ZeroNowhere

9th July 2009, 19:56

The Party line is now that 600,000 is equivalent to 60 million. Also, studen, please use the 'Edit' button, it would make your posts take up less space.

China Studen: ignore these bourgeois people from the west. Their ignorance is overwhelming.There is no proven link between expropriating surplus labour and being a communist who is against North Korea.

khad

9th July 2009, 20:12

The Party line is now that 600,000 is equivalent to 60 million.
It was something lost in translation. Don't be an ass.

Josef Balin

9th July 2009, 20:14

Yet they are the only sources other than those controlled by the North Korean Government. If North Korea is different to the way it is portrayed, why don't they demonstrate it? Why are they so keen to cover up their society? Why do the foreign media rarely get in? Why do foreign visitors have their movements tightly controlled and have to be accompanied by supervisors?

If North Korea was better than it is being claimes, surely it would be happy to display itself to the world in an open manner rather than through darefully controlling what is presented?
Demonstrating what, exactly? That Kim Jong-Il does not own these luxuries? How? And why? What could the country possibly have to gain? Keep in mind this is the same country that was fucked and partitioned by the community you propose it needs to show itself to.

I'm not saying the government bureaucracy isn't bad, I'm just saying the "western luxuries" (I'm assuming you're talking about the European cars, American films, and expensive European liquor) are almost certainly bullshit and if they're right it's because a dart was thrown in the dark and hit a bullseye.

Salyut

9th July 2009, 20:33

Only the mentally handicapped before the Western capitalist running dog masturbation, because you impotence.

I love you.

LOLseph Stalin

9th July 2009, 21:08

He said he was, though. If we're going to take what Kim said about himself at face value, why wouldn't we do the same for Truman?

So if Hitler said he was fighting for freedom does that mean he actually was fighting for freedom?

I don't support the US. I know full well it's an imperialist power. I just don't see why other imperialist powers and their proxies deserve any more support.

Give one example as to how North Korea is Imperialist. Just one. I bet you can't.

Now excuse me while I go rape some *****es.

That supposed to be funny? :rolleyes:

The Ungovernable Farce

9th July 2009, 21:27

Obviously. Unless you think I don't understand Marxism or something. :rolleyes:

Well, quite a few people here seem to think that Marxism means you support the good nation-states against the bad nation-states.

So if Hitler said he was fighting for freedom does that mean he actually was fighting for freedom?

No. So if Kim said he was fighting for socialism, why should that mean he actually was fighting for socialism?

Give one example as to how North Korea is Imperialist. Just one. I bet you can't.
I said imperialist powers and their proxies. Are you going to deny it was a satellite of the USSR?

LOLseph Stalin

9th July 2009, 21:36

Well, quite a few people here seem to think that Marxism means you support the good nation-states against the bad nation-states.

No, Marxism is about class struggle and getting rid of nation states as they're Bourgeois creation, kind of as a way to determine who gets which wealth.

No. So if Kim said he was fighting for socialism, why should that mean he actually was fighting for socialism?

I'm only going to say it once more, Kim was fighting against Imperialism. I don't support Juche in any way, shape, or form but I support Kim in his struggle against Imperialism.Of course being brainwashed by American media that's something you wouldn't be familiar with.

I said imperialist powers and their proxies. Are you going to deny it was a satellite of the USSR?

The DPRK was separate from the USSR. Why else would they adapt their own Socialist ideology? The states in Eastern Europe that were connected to the Soviet Union followed Socialism in the same way the Soviet Union did.

Demogorgon

9th July 2009, 21:57

1, your ignorance really ridiculous. Your logic: You have very little news that North Korea, so do you think North Korea is "closed." I must correct: the Internet, a large number of objective information on the website of North Korea. Your own "do not know" does not mean "no."

2, hostile forces to subvert all the time looking forward to North Korea. North Korea is restricted to tourists in order to more effectively prevent the penetration of the enemy.
If there are all these objective websites, show us them. The only websites I have ever been able to find other than those produced by those outside the country are poor quality Government propaganda sites producing rubbish on the level of which you have been treating us to here.

Nowhere else in the world is difficult to get information on, why do you suppose that is?

Demogorgon

9th July 2009, 22:01

Demonstrating what, exactly? That Kim Jong-Il does not own these luxuries? How? And why? What could the country possibly have to gain? Keep in mind this is the same country that was fucked and partitioned by the community you propose it needs to show itself to.

I'm not saying the government bureaucracy isn't bad, I'm just saying the "western luxuries" (I'm assuming you're talking about the European cars, American films, and expensive European liquor) are almost certainly bullshit and if they're right it's because a dart was thrown in the dark and hit a bullseye.
Well it is obvious they have these things because they aren't made in North Korea, they are imported. Finding out what gets sent there and who orders it is about the only thing you can reliably know about the place.

But that was hardly the main thrust of what I am saying. I am saying that if North Korea is as you think it is, then why is the Government so keen to hide information on it? Nowhere else in the world is so secretive.

Brother No. 1

10th July 2009, 05:10

No. So if Kim said he was fighting for socialism, why should that mean he actually was fighting for socialism?

He was fighting against The Japanese imperialists and the American Imperialists, different times of course, I dont support the ideology of Juche but still it has fougth against American Imperialism. So why not support his fight against Imperialism? You dont have to support his ideology but you can at least support his fight against the Imperialists.

Well, quite a few people here seem to think that Marxism means you support the good nation-states against the bad nation-states.

Sure...And Marxism must mean nothing about the Proletarian,Bougoisie,Revolution,etc that was written by Marx,Lenin,etc for years.:rolleyes:

Are you going to deny it was a satellite of the USSR?

And when the USSR basicly left it alone after the Sino-Soviet split against Marxism-Leninism and Revisionism and when Kim Jong'll created the idea of Juche and followed no one through the entire Cold War that must have meant the DPRK was a satalite state of the USSR.:glare:

do you think before you type?

Gleb

10th July 2009, 09:53

Jucheboys and -girls, go suck horseballs. For do you know what I hate in these folks who are hurraying for DPRK? It's the fucking cult of personality. You go on ranting about how great leader Kim was and how he was a father and gracious ruler et cetera, but do I ever see people thanking Korean working class for the achievements DPRK has reached?

Haha, of course not. Of course it was the Grrrrrrreat Leader (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Vr8Xl0cbUZA/ScUYf4hsR7I/AAAAAAAAGjM/1qMrIF24vNk/s400/Image+%3D+Tony-the-tiger+3.gif) of yours or whatever you call that fat slob nowadays.

Kwisatz Haderach

10th July 2009, 12:35

But that was hardly the main thrust of what I am saying. I am saying that if North Korea is as you think it is, then why is the Government so keen to hide information on it? Nowhere else in the world is so secretive.
In all fairness, the North Korean government operates under such an extreme siege mentality that they would be equally secretive no matter what the domestic situation was.

Demogorgon

10th July 2009, 13:48

In all fairness, the North Korean government operates under such an extreme siege mentality that they would be equally secretive no matter what the domestic situation was.
A lot of Governments function under that mentality though, but none behave like North Korea. It is one thing to hide details of national security, another to attempt to block all details of how people lead their lives except what comes through State propaganda sources-and even that is pretty scarce.

Moreover the State tries-and largely succeeds-to restrict internal knowledge of the outside world. Few other places do that.

The Ungovernable Farce

10th July 2009, 15:32

No, Marxism is about class struggle and getting rid of nation states as they're Bourgeois creation, kind of as a way to determine who gets which wealth.

Well done. So we should care about the struggle to create a Korean nation-state because?

I'm only going to say it once more, Kim was fighting against Imperialism. I don't support Juche in any way, shape, or form but I support Kim in his struggle against Imperialism.
Kim was fighting against Japanese imperialism; Truman was fighting against Japanese imperialism; the Germans in WWI were fighting against British imperialism. I should care about this because?

Of course being brainwashed by American media that's something you wouldn't be familiar with.
You've got me there. All my views obviously come directly from the American media. I'm just brainwashed by the amount of anarchist communist propaganda they put out. Have you seen The New Adventures of Malatesta?

He was fighting against The Japanese imperialists and the American Imperialists, different times of course, I dont support the ideology of Juche but still it has fougth against American Imperialism. So why not support his fight against Imperialism? You dont have to support his ideology but you can at least support his fight against the Imperialists.
See above. I don't care about the struggle of one nation-state against another.

And when the USSR basicly left it alone after the Sino-Soviet split against Marxism-Leninism and Revisionism and when Kim Jong'll created the idea of Juche and followed no one through the entire Cold War that must have meant the DPRK was a satalite state of the USSR.:glare:

The Sino-Soviet split was in the 60s, a full 15 years after the Japanese occupation of Korea ended. At the time that Kim was serving in the Soviet Red Army, he was quite clearly fighting for Soviet imperialism.

scarletghoul

10th July 2009, 15:50

Guerrilla22

10th July 2009, 17:42

"A major factor in North Korea's renewed reliance on the Soviet Union in the 1980s--both as supplier of imports as well as the chief destination for exports--was the difficulty of marketing its products elsewhere; a second important factor was the West's reluctance to extend additional credits. In a trade agreement signed in November 1990, North Korea was required, for the first time, to use hard currency in its commercial transactions with the Soviet Union beginning in 1991."

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9580.html

That hardly made the DPRK a Soviet satellite state though. The Soviets started trading with everyone in the 80's including the US.

khad

10th July 2009, 18:02

That hardly made the DPRK a Soviet satellite state though. The Soviets started trading with everyone in the 80's including the US.
Obviously the United States was a Soviet satellite.

10th July 2009, 18:02

To claim that North Korea was a soviet sattelite state is just ignorance. As has already been pointed out, they abandoned Marxism-Leninism for Juche (a big part of Juche is self-reliance). And also they are still around 20 years after the USSR fell, whereas all soviet sattelite states fell around the same time (Mongolia, Poland, etc). If they were a sattelite state, how did they manage to outlive their imperial masters?

Just because there was a split between the Soviet Union and the DPRK doesn't mean that it wasn't a satellite state. The fact is that the DPRK was economically and politically dependent upon the USSR for its survival, as we saw following its collapse and the subsequent famine that happened partially as a result of that collapse.

robbo203

10th July 2009, 19:24

How do you prove that 60 million deaths? So I have been stressed: the debate with you is meaningless.

Stupid because you do not even know that they have been brainwashed by the bourgeois media.

You somewhat scientific spirit? Your logic, the ability to think is normal for you?

One of the first requirement for a serious debate is that you get your facts straight. I did not say 60 millions deaths. I said 600,000 deaths. Slight difference eh?

Oh yes and of course everyone else apart from yourself is brainwashed. Sad tosser

LOLseph Stalin

11th July 2009, 02:41

Well done. So we should care about the struggle to create a Korean nation-state because?

We don't want to create a Korean nation state. We want the revolution to be spread, but unfortunately that can't really be done when most of the world hates them. But then again, the ideology of Juche is confined to North Korea so they can't really be relied on to spread revolution.

Kim was fighting against Japanese imperialism; Truman was fighting against Japanese imperialism; the Germans in WWI were fighting against British imperialism. I should care about this because?

There's differences. Sure, the Americans were fighting against Japanese imperialism, but only to replace it with their own Imperialism. They basically nuked Japan so the Soviets wouldn't get it before them. Same with the British. They still had colonies in Africa much after the end of WW II.

You've got me there. All my views obviously come directly from the American media. I'm just brainwashed by the amount of anarchist communist propaganda they put out. Have you seen The New Adventures of Malatesta?

Well quit making it sound like all your facts are coming straight from American media. Maybe I'll be more convinced of your arguments then.

Robespierre2.0

11th July 2009, 14:14

If there are all these objective websites, show us them. The only websites I have ever been able to find other than those produced by those outside the country are poor quality Government propaganda sites producing rubbish on the level of which you have been treating us to here.

Nowhere else in the world is difficult to get information on, why do you suppose that is?

The way I see it, both sides do a rubbish job putting their point across. I love the DPRK, but their propaganda is a little old-fashioned, and obviously not tailored to garner sympathy from suburban liberal kids (revlefters), but rather, people from parts of the world where a stable job and health care, and a sense of community seem unthinkable.

The western propaganda is equally ham-handed, though, and I think people are making the fatal mistake of believing it just because it has higher production values. Ohhh wow, some grainy photoes of starving children of indeterminate origin! Better hop on the imperialist bandwagon!

When looking at the big picture, however, the DPRK seems to be in the same situation as the USSR was, although on a much smaller scale, and without the intention of spreading the revolution, at least until reunification with the South is accomplished- In other words, it is a socialist state, hostile to any and every act of imperialism the Great Powers inflict on the rest of the world, and unwilling to let even the slightest bit of poisonous oppressor culture in. I'm all for an openness of culture, but I'm a realist, and I know that in this perilous situation, the DPRK must maintain its autarky if it wants to survive and preserve all the gains of the revolution.

Also, cults of personality aren't a good thing, but honestly, as far as the DPRK goes, the more anarchists complain about it, the less I mind it myself. After all, it looks to me like the Kims are viewed more as symbolic figures- representative of the will of the Korean people, rather than all-powerful dieties.

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:21

Well, quite a few people here seem to think that Marxism means you support the good nation-states against the bad nation-states.

No. So if Kim said he was fighting for socialism, why should that mean he actually was fighting for socialism?

I said imperialist powers and their proxies. Are you going to deny it was a satellite of the USSR?

1, means that the science of Marxism. Means that the use of "class analysis" to evaluate things. Ignorance rather than means. Means to listen to rumors, just parroting.

2, Kim Jong-il not see verbally emphasized that "defend socialism", but action as well. Communists have always been as good as its word, and you pretend this has always been reactionaries, despicable hypocrisy.

3, ignorance. Kim 13 took part in the revolution from the beginning, it has been stressed that "independent." If he is willing to follow the Soviet Union, he can take part in the revolution when it joined the then small group that already exists sectarianism.

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:35

If there are all these objective websites, show us them. The only websites I have ever been able to find other than those produced by those outside the country are poor quality Government propaganda sites producing rubbish on the level of which you have been treating us to here.

Nowhere else in the world is difficult to get information on, why do you suppose that is?

1, the debate on the level of junk, low-power logic. If the use of Chinese, I have to expose you to a meticulously.
These sites is an objective existence. Do you think it is difficult to find, but why other people can find it? Because other people are willing to search for. I found myself for deeper investigation.
Mao Zedong said: do not say there would be no investigation. Since you have not investigated the situation in North Korea, or even just stupid to know how to guard the Western press. What qualifications do you have come here to talk about it?
You studied philosophy you? Internal factors is decisive. If you try to understand the support for the position of North Korea's side, I am sure you can easily find these sites. The fact is: you just ignorant and incompetent, full of fraud and ignorance of the garbage!

2, belonging to the cultural media. Culture is also part of the ideology. The world is now dominated by the bourgeoisie. Therefore, to master the major bourgeois "rights discourse" is normal. This can not prove that North Korea's bad publicity. Because the class is a balance of power disparity.
Your way of thinking is idiocy. How can you not be thinking: Why is North Korea's media is not widespread. This is precisely because of the blockade of U.S. imperialism and oppression. So, if you want to pursue, you should denounce imperialism. Rather than the evil to be afraid of bullying the weak and an insult to the Korean.
Draw an analogy, your behavior is this: your mother was raped, you go not only to comfort the mother, but rebuked her incompetence. This is not absurd and ignorant of it?

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:41

Well it is obvious they have these things because they aren't made in North Korea, they are imported. Finding out what gets sent there and who orders it is about the only thing you can reliably know about the place.

But that was hardly the main thrust of what I am saying. I am saying that if North Korea is as you think it is, then why is the Government so keen to hide information on it? Nowhere else in the world is so secretive.

1, your words have been reflected in your prejudice and ignorance. You still went on talking endlessly to repeat the rumors that there is no evidence. Before you can come up with evidence, then you fart? !

2, North Korea tried to hide what? If the rumors of others, accused of robbery you, you have to prove their right to steal what items? In addition, do you think North Korea's silence, or you crazy bourgeois media disinformation is better?

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:44

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:51

A lot of Governments function under that mentality though, but none behave like North Korea. It is one thing to hide details of national security, another to attempt to block all details of how people lead their lives except what comes through State propaganda sources-and even that is pretty scarce.

Moreover the State tries-and largely succeeds-to restrict internal knowledge of the outside world. Few other places do that.

This is a supreme irony. A bourgeois media brainwashing worried about the idiots in the socialist countries of the people of the freedom of information. The so-called "closure" of the Korean people have a high degree of class consciousness and excellent moral character. Think that they have gained since "democracy" and "freedom" will be kept in the dark is still ignorant.

You like a toad at the bottom of wells, smart aleck. Even the most sad thing is that you are unaware of their own.

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:58

Well done. So we should care about the struggle to create a Korean nation-state because?

Kim was fighting against Japanese imperialism; Truman was fighting against Japanese imperialism; the Germans in WWI were fighting against British imperialism. I should care about this because?

You've got me there. All my views obviously come directly from the American media. I'm just brainwashed by the amount of anarchist communist propaganda they put out. Have you seen The New Adventures of Malatesta?

See above. I don't care about the struggle of one nation-state against another.

The Sino-Soviet split was in the 60s, a full 15 years after the Japanese occupation of Korea ended. At the time that Kim was serving in the Soviet Red Army, he was quite clearly fighting for Soviet imperialism.

1, do you know what a "philosophy" in it? Essentially the same show that you mean the same? I had said North Korea, the United States in real terms the difference between the struggle against Japan - a different class.

2, anarchist philosophy of "relativism," "nihilism." What is wrong and what is correct, do you think you are "school wise" it? Incomplete in your sense of skepticism only.

3, Kim Il Sung, has never been "serving the Red Army." Northeast Anti-Japanese, he is a member of the Democratic coalition. The coalition forces there are Koreans, Chinese, Russian.

China studen

12th July 2009, 10:59

China studen

12th July 2009, 11:06

One of the first requirement for a serious debate is that you get your facts straight. I did not say 60 millions deaths. I said 600,000 deaths. Slight difference eh?

Oh yes and of course everyone else apart from yourself is brainwashed. Sad tosser

The first requirement: a serious debate, you have to understand what is "logical."
Your request is ridiculous. You just published a fabricated data. Apart from that, nothing. When I mean to expose you, when rumors. Instead, turn around telling you asked me to give "facts."
I have been waiting for. It is a pity. I know I will never go there one day, etc. - you are given disinformation lackeys of the bourgeoisie evidence that North Korea took place tens of thousands of people starved to death in the so-called "Great Famine."

China studen

12th July 2009, 11:09

We don't want to create a Korean nation state. We want the revolution to be spread, but unfortunately that can't really be done when most of the world hates them. But then again, the ideology of Juche is confined to North Korea so they can't really be relied on to spread revolution.

There's differences. Sure, the Americans were fighting against Japanese imperialism, but only to replace it with their own Imperialism. They basically nuked Japan so the Soviets wouldn't get it before them. Same with the British. They still had colonies in Africa much after the end of WW II.

Well quit making it sound like all your facts are coming straight from American media. Maybe I'll be more convinced of your arguments then.

As long as the time is ripe, North Korea will be the main ideological propaganda, the output revolution. But it is not the right time.

Agrippa

13th July 2009, 00:11

Can I make posts on President's Day reminding RevLeft to recognize the achievements of George Washington?

Os Cangaceiros

13th July 2009, 03:10

Bourgeois lies! It's all bourgeois lies!

robbo203

13th July 2009, 12:20

The first requirement: a serious debate, you have to understand what is "logical."
Your request is ridiculous. You just published a fabricated data. Apart from that, nothing. When I mean to expose you, when rumors. Instead, turn around telling you asked me to give "facts."
I have been waiting for. It is a pity. I know I will never go there one day, etc. - you are given disinformation lackeys of the bourgeoisie evidence that North Korea took place tens of thousands of people starved to death in the so-called "Great Famine."

You are obviously confused. First you accuse me of claiming the famine killed of 60 million - nearly 3 times times the current population of NK - when I said 600,000 Then you say the data is "fabricated". OK here´s a source and I have found several other sources too that agree on the figure of around 600,000 deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine

If the figures are incorrect no doubt you will have hard evidence to prove them incorrect. You are not going to persuade anyone that you are correct if you continue screaming at them like some demented idiot that they are all just brainwashed lackeys of the bourgeoisie. I mean c´mon whats to say you are not a brainwashed lackey of the North korean regime.

Its the hard evidence i want , not your all too obvious prejudice

Dervish

13th July 2009, 13:59

Hopefully soon we'll mourn the death of Kim Jong-il, too

13th July 2009, 14:19

The western propaganda is equally ham-handed, though, and I think people are making the fatal mistake of believing it just because it has higher production values. Ohhh wow, some grainy photoes of starving children of indeterminate origin! Better hop on the imperialist bandwagon!

First, are you claiming that there was not a famine in North Korea? Second, in your opinion, does opposing the North Korean regime automatically constitute a support of "imperialism"?

In other words, it is a socialist state

How do you define "socialist state"?

and unwilling to let even the slightest bit of poisonous oppressor culture in.

Then how do you explain the free trade zone? Or the foreign investment in the country (however small)? Or the dependence on foreign aid? And the Chinese retailers that operate regularly in North Korean markets?

I'm all for an openness of culture, but I'm a realist, and I know that in this perilous situation, the DPRK must maintain its autarky if it wants to survive and preserve all the gains of the revolution.

Which gains are those?

You are obviously confused. First you accuse me of claiming the famine killed of 60 million - nearly 3 times times the current population of NK - when I said 600,000 Then you say the data is "fabricated". OK here´s a source and I have found several other sources too that agree on the figure of around 600,000 deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine)

This number is actually probably low, considering the extremely limited access that outsiders have had to document famine deaths as well as the governments attempt to hide it. Of course, this number doesn't take into consideration secondary deaths, either.

The Ungovernable Farce

13th July 2009, 18:57

We don't want to create a Korean nation state.
Oh, so the end of the Japanese occupation wasn't that important after all?

We want the revolution to be spread, but unfortunately that can't really be done when most of the world hates them.
And one of the reasons (not the only reason, but one of them) why most of the world hates the idea of communism is because of assholes like Kim Il Sung creating horribly fucked-up, unfree and unequal societies that no sane person would want to live in and calling the results communism.

There's differences. Sure, the Americans were fighting against Japanese imperialism, but only to replace it with their own Imperialism.
Yes. Like the Soviets were fighting against Japanese imperialism only to replace it with their own imperialism, and Kim was fighting against Japanese imperialism only to replace it with his own bureaucratic state capitalist dictatorship. Not so much of a difference after all.

Well quit making it sound like all your facts are coming straight from American media. Maybe I'll be more convinced of your arguments then.
K. I'll start making it sound like all my facts come straight from the North Korean dictatorship's state media, then I'll be really credible.

scarletghoul

14th July 2009, 00:36

Which gains are those?
North Korea has made loads of gains. Just compare it to korea before. To say otherwise is blindness.

This number is actually probably low, considering the extremely limited access that outsiders have had to document famine deaths as well as the governments attempt to hide it. Of course, this number doesn't take into consideration secondary deaths, either.What makes you think outsiders would underestimate the death toll? If anything they would overestimate it, for obvious reasons. Why do you think it doesn't take into consideration 'secondary deaths'?

Yes. Like the Soviets were fighting against Japanese imperialism only to replace it with their own imperialism, and Kim was fighting against Japanese imperialism only to replace it with his own bureaucratic state capitalist dictatorship. Not so much of a difference after all.
Oh so hes not imperialist anymore, just state capitalist?:lol:
But do you seriously think he led a revolutionary war and put his life on the line just so he could make an evil dictatorship?

14th July 2009, 01:21

North Korea has made loads of gains. Just compare it to korea before. To say otherwise is blindness.

In comparison to pre-revolution Korea, there certainly have been some gains, but not much. The industrialization of the country was certainly a good thing (before its infrastructure fell apart, or rather, was dismantled), but other than that I'm not quite sure how much higher the standard of living is.

What makes you think outsiders would underestimate the death toll? If anything they would overestimate it, for obvious reasons.

I am referring to those that are interested in portraying accurate numbers, not propagandists whose interest is to inflate it for political reasons. Also, many aid workers, politicians and others actually originally thought that the North Korean government was inflating the significance of the crisis to receive more aid.

And they would underestimate the death toll because of a lack of access to information and a lack of direct access to the countryside and the victims. It is extremely difficult to get any information on internal issues in North Korea because of how closely monitored foreigners are.

It should also be noted the level of skepticism that comes along with attempting to document the famine from within the country, as everything that anyone who has gone to the country has seen has been approved by the government for viewing by outside eyes.

Why do you think it doesn't take into consideration 'secondary deaths'?

Firstly, because of the fact that there is very little actual documentation of the North Korean economy, and much of what exists is suspect, as it usually comes from the government.

Second, because of the lack of direct access to famine victims.

Third, because secondary deaths are nearly impossible to accurately determine.

The Ungovernable Farce

14th July 2009, 01:24

Oh so hes not imperialist anymore, just state capitalist?
I think that to prove NK is imperialist would require a lengthy and pointless argument about the definition of the word imperialism that you'll never agree with any way. I still think it was undeniably, at least at the time of its formation, part of the imperialist bloc led by the USSR. Even if it wasn't imperialist, just capitalist, is that any reason to support it?

But do you seriously think he led a revolutionary war and put his life on the line just so he could make an evil dictatorship?
What went on inside his head I'll never know. As a historical materialist, I tend to think that objective forces are usually more important than what Dear Leaders are thinking anyway. Whether he planned all along to make a society as shit as North Korea turned out or whether he genuinely intended to make a lovely communist utopia with bunny rabbits and cake for everyone is irrelevant; the point is how it turned out.

Agrippa

14th July 2009, 04:43

North Korea has made loads of gains. Just compare it to korea before. To say otherwise is blindness.

It's worse in some ways, it's better in some ways. Either way, the Korean people lived under an oppressive capitalist regime that should have been overthrown.

What makes you think outsiders would underestimate the death toll? If anything they would overestimate it, for obvious reasons.For the same reason the Zionist conspirators overestimate the Holocaust's death toll, eh? :rolleyes:

Oh so hes not imperialist anymore, just state capitalist?:lol:I guess those terms are mutually exclusive now. All capitalists are "state capitalists" and all "state capitalists" are imperialists.

But do you seriously think he led a revolutionary war and put his life on the line just so he could make an evil dictatorship?Because someone who is sincerely and courageously committed to liberatory politics can't have a total personality shift and become a bureaucratic, oppertunistic, abusive asshole? I've personally witnessed this very thing happen at least once. You and your comrades are being totally naive - that someone has admirable characteristics in their young life in no way justifies their later atrocities. You're suposed to get wiser as you get older. Compare Kim Il Sung's political degeneration to the maturity of political thought that we saw in Marx and Bakunin as they got older. Kim has no excuse...

Dimentio

14th July 2009, 19:51

It's worse in some ways, it's better in some ways. Either way, the Korean people lived under an oppressive capitalist regime that should have been overthrown.

For the same reason the Zionist conspirators overestimate the Holocaust's death toll, eh? :rolleyes:

I guess those terms are mutually exclusive now. All capitalists are "state capitalists" and all "state capitalists" are imperialists.

Because someone who is sincerely and courageously committed to liberatory politics can't have a total personality shift and become a bureaucratic, oppertunistic, abusive asshole? I've personally witnessed this very thing happen at least once. You and your comrades are being totally naive - that someone has admirable characteristics in their young life in no way justifies their later atrocities. You're suposed to get wiser as you get older. Compare Kim Il Sung's political degeneration to the maturity of political thought that we saw in Marx and Bakunin as they got older. Kim has no excuse...

Marx and Bakunin never got into executive office or a privilegied position. I guess that could do a lot with a person's head. I have even seen quite decent persons becoming assholes as soon as they become moderators on an internet discussion forum. XD

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:00

You are obviously confused. First you accuse me of claiming the famine killed of 60 million - nearly 3 times times the current population of NK - when I said 600,000 Then you say the data is "fabricated". OK here´s a source and I have found several other sources too that agree on the figure of around 600,000 deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine

If the figures are incorrect no doubt you will have hard evidence to prove them incorrect. You are not going to persuade anyone that you are correct if you continue screaming at them like some demented idiot that they are all just brainwashed lackeys of the bourgeoisie. I mean c´mon whats to say you are not a brainwashed lackey of the North korean regime.

Its the hard evidence i want , not your all too obvious prejudice

1, this is the game of words of a guilty conscience. Everyone can understand what I figure is for what. The struggle for a slip of the tongue to let you out of embarrassing you? The core of the problem is - you are spreading. Have now, you still can not give evidence. In spite of this, you still stick with your rumors and prejudice.

2, it is ironic that "Wikipedia." How can you not be given directly or Agence France-Presse, VOA's information? Wikipedia is one prepared? Master data, experts and scholars in North Korea do? Or like you ignorant and incompetent, just parroting wretch it the West?

3, I simply note once again: I need the real data. It is not the slightest evidence of the material, anyone can prepare a "Wikipedia" or other refuse.

You look at the data you provide it more ridiculous: There may be more than 200,000 people were killed -300. 200,000 in the end it is still more than 300 million? Among the 2.8 million difference. 2800000 Do you know what this number is the concept of it? Do you know what is meant by science? What is it serious? You only know that prejudice and ignorance!

4, since you never get the real data, and you know nothing about North Korea. What do you bark at me? Oh, may the West are such an idiot dog.

I tell you, "ignorance" is not the most miserable you. The poor are: ignorance, and unwilling to admit their own ignorance.

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:05

Hopefully soon we'll mourn the death of Kim Jong-il, too

Oh ye, I wish you the death of the family as soon as possible.

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:08

First, are you claiming that there was not a famine in North Korea? Second, in your opinion, does opposing the North Korean regime automatically constitute a support of "imperialism"?

How do you define "socialist state"?

Then how do you explain the free trade zone? Or the foreign investment in the country (however small)? Or the dependence on foreign aid? And the Chinese retailers that operate regularly in North Korean markets?

Which gains are those?

This number is actually probably low, considering the extremely limited access that outsiders have had to document famine deaths as well as the governments attempt to hide it. Of course, this number doesn't take into consideration secondary deaths, either.

Do you have any convincing data to show that "this figure is likely low"? Based on you - without an understanding of North Korea likes to listen to the bourgeois media rumors, the investigation has never been done in practice - with the vulgar - of mind it?

Small Geezer

15th July 2009, 09:11

China Studen, you are priceless.

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:12

I think that to prove NK is imperialist would require a lengthy and pointless argument about the definition of the word imperialism that you'll never agree with any way. I still think it was undeniably, at least at the time of its formation, part of the imperialist bloc led by the USSR. Even if it wasn't imperialist, just capitalist, is that any reason to support it?

What went on inside his head I'll never know. As a historical materialist, I tend to think that objective forces are usually more important than what Dear Leaders are thinking anyway. Whether he planned all along to make a society as shit as North Korea turned out or whether he genuinely intended to make a lovely communist utopia with bunny rabbits and cake for everyone is irrelevant; the point is how it turned out.

And one of the reasons (not the only reasons, but one of them), why do most countries in the world do not like the idea of communism is that there is a lot of the world's ignorance of the dog, such as you.

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:18

I think that to prove NK is imperialist would require a lengthy and pointless argument about the definition of the word imperialism that you'll never agree with any way. I still think it was undeniably, at least at the time of its formation, part of the imperialist bloc led by the USSR. Even if it wasn't imperialist, just capitalist, is that any reason to support it?

What went on inside his head I'll never know. As a historical materialist, I tend to think that objective forces are usually more important than what Dear Leaders are thinking anyway. Whether he planned all along to make a society as shit as North Korea turned out or whether he genuinely intended to make a lovely communist utopia with bunny rabbits and cake for everyone is irrelevant; the point is how it turned out.

Shamelessly. Do you think you are qualified to talk about "historical materialism" is all about? You even materialism. Are the most basic lack of scientific spirit. When you slander the Korean "dictatorship" of the time ... .... You have is a bourgeois idealist villain.

China studen

15th July 2009, 09:25

It's worse in some ways, it's better in some ways. Either way, the Korean people lived under an oppressive capitalist regime that should have been overthrown.

For the same reason the Zionist conspirators overestimate the Holocaust's death toll, eh? :rolleyes:

I guess those terms are mutually exclusive now. All capitalists are "state capitalists" and all "state capitalists" are imperialists.

Because someone who is sincerely and courageously committed to liberatory politics can't have a total personality shift and become a bureaucratic, oppertunistic, abusive asshole? I've personally witnessed this very thing happen at least once. You and your comrades are being totally naive - that someone has admirable characteristics in their young life in no way justifies their later atrocities. You're suposed to get wiser as you get older. Compare Kim Il Sung's political degeneration to the maturity of political thought that we saw in Marx and Bakunin as they got older. Kim has no excuse...

1, you live in an oppressive capitalist system should be overthrown. You should be thrown into a pile of dog feces history.
2, the data on the Holocaust have sufficient information to support its authenticity. North Korea's rumors on this? Even a bit of evidence do not exist in the face of the earth.

The Ungovernable Farce

15th July 2009, 11:11

China studen has the best putdowns ever. I am so stealing "You should be thrown into a pile of dog feces history."

Dimentio

15th July 2009, 14:25

China studen has the best putdowns ever. I am so stealing "You should be thrown into a pile of dog feces history."

If he don't look up, I will make a Borat out of him...

15th July 2009, 14:28

Do you have any convincing data to show that "this figure is likely low"? Based on you - without an understanding of North Korea likes to listen to the bourgeois media rumors, the investigation has never been done in practice - with the vulgar - of mind it?

Ok.

Sasha

15th July 2009, 14:46

imperialist dog!

the dog, such as you.

a pile of dog feces

http://z.about.com/d/rap/1/5/C/A/-/-/DoggPoundDoggChit.jpg

robbo203

15th July 2009, 15:34

1, this is the game of words of a guilty conscience. Everyone can understand what I figure is for what. The struggle for a slip of the tongue to let you out of embarrassing you? The core of the problem is - you are spreading. Have now, you still can not give evidence. In spite of this, you still stick with your rumors and prejudice.

2, it is ironic that "Wikipedia." How can you not be given directly or Agence France-Presse, VOA's information? Wikipedia is one prepared? Master data, experts and scholars in North Korea do? Or like you ignorant and incompetent, just parroting wretch it the West?

3, I simply note once again: I need the real data. It is not the slightest evidence of the material, anyone can prepare a "Wikipedia" or other refuse.

You look at the data you provide it more ridiculous: There may be more than 200,000 people were killed -300. 200,000 in the end it is still more than 300 million? Among the 2.8 million difference. 2800000 Do you know what this number is the concept of it? Do you know what is meant by science? What is it serious? You only know that prejudice and ignorance!

4, since you never get the real data, and you know nothing about North Korea. What do you bark at me? Oh, may the West are such an idiot dog.

I tell you, "ignorance" is not the most miserable you. The poor are: ignorance, and unwilling to admit their own ignorance.

Look, take a deep breath and just keep calm, OK . Thats it, keep breathing . It doesnt do to keep up this frenetic rate of chanting Maoist slogans at the "running dogs of capitalism" or the "brainwahed lackeys of the bourgeosie" or whatever its you think we are. You might just do yourself an injury with all this shouting in BIG BOLD RED LETTERS.

Now whilst you are keeping calm and breathing deeply , let me just tell you this. I am not a statistican. Nor do I think you are. We both rely on estimates of famine deaths provided by other people. The North Korean government itself has said about 220,000 people died of the famine. You dont deny this do you?

Here's what the Asian Times says
http://www.atimes.com/koreas/CE23Dg02.html :

Let's begin with a rare and welcome event: perhaps the first ever detailed data from the horse's mouth. On May 15, Choe Su-hon, one of Pyongyang's nine deputy foreign ministers, quantified the grim truth at a Unicef conference in Beijing. Almost a quarter of a million people - 220,000 to be exact - died of famine between 1995 and 1998. As a result, and also due to medical shortages, average life expectancy fell from 73.2 in 1993 to 66.8 in 1999. Showing who exactly bore the brunt, infant mortality (under 5s) almost doubled from 27 to 48 per 1,000 people. Choe also gave data on a related disaster: his country's wider health care crisis. In 1994, 86 percent of people had access to save drinking water; by 1996, only 53 percent did. And the rate of vaccination against polio and measles fell from 90 percent in 1990 to just 50 percent by 1997.

Most other estimates put the number who died much higher - anything up to 3 million dead

See for example:

http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5429.html

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-4-9/53901.html

Now I dont know about you but I reckon a reasonable guess would be somewhere in the middle. The 600,000 figures Ive come across is repeated on several sites. It seems to be a reasonable one. Can we believe the North Korean's figures of 220,000. Well, no, becuase they have a vested interest in presenting as a low as possible figure. Can we believe the figure of up to 3 millions. Well, no. for the opposite reason. So it seems safe to say a figure somewhere in the middle is the safest bet.

I cannot tell you for certain if it is correct and you cannot tell me if it is wrong. The truth of the matter is that neither of us can know for sure but you make a judgement on the matter and to me the most likely correct figure is somewhere between the two extremes.

But even if I am wrong and you are right what you are admitting to is that at least 220,000 people died of famine in this brutal state capitalist regime.

Now , do you find this acceptable?

Here

15th July 2009, 16:24

The reasons for the revolutionary people of the revolutionary leader of the self-esteem is the so-called "cult of personality."

Very good. FUCK your mother. Bye.

This entire post should be made into a holiday card, its a riot.

khad

15th July 2009, 17:40

Here's what the Asian Times says
http://www.atimes.com/koreas/CE23Dg02.html :

Let's begin with a rare and welcome event: perhaps the first ever detailed data from the horse's mouth. On May 15, Choe Su-hon, one of Pyongyang's nine deputy foreign ministers, quantified the grim truth at a Unicef conference in Beijing. Almost a quarter of a million people - 220,000 to be exact - died of famine between 1995 and 1998. As a result, and also due to medical shortages, average life expectancy fell from 73.2 in 1993 to 66.8 in 1999. Showing who exactly bore the brunt, infant mortality (under 5s) almost doubled from 27 to 48 per 1,000 people. Choe also gave data on a related disaster: his country's wider health care crisis. In 1994, 86 percent of people had access to save drinking water; by 1996, only 53 percent did. And the rate of vaccination against polio and measles fell from 90 percent in 1990 to just 50 percent by 1997.

Most other estimates put the number who died much higher - anything up to 3 million dead.

Kim Il-Sung died in 1994. I don't see how this is relevant.

gorillafuck

15th July 2009, 17:43

There is no proven link between expropriating surplus labour and being a communist who is against North Korea.
The capitalists would have you think that, wouldn't they?:mad:

the last donut of the night

15th July 2009, 23:19

China studen > logic and common sense?

scarletghoul

15th July 2009, 23:43

Ok you shouldn't patronise China Studen just because his english isn't great; he is making some valid points if you can understand his posts.

"You have is a bourgeois idealist villain." this is true. There is in the west a huge negative cult of personality based around the Kims, and it is just as ridiculous as the positive cult inside the DPRK seems. DPRK credits everything good to Kim, the west blames everything bad on him. Both are illogical, and show a lack of materialist understanding of North Korea.

LOLseph Stalin

16th July 2009, 01:57

Because his son inherited the government when he died, something which would not be possible in a country where the proletariat had any kind of real power?

That's exactly part of the reason why so many people on the left criticise North Korea. The proletariat doesn't hold much power. The leadership as we see is passed down. In a real Socialist state there would be elections in which the Proletariat would choose leaders. Also, as I was arguing before, I don't believe North Korea to be an authentic Socialist state, however I do support Kim Il-Sung's struggles against Imperialism. Other than that, his politics pretty much suck. Juche is fucked up, resulting in a personality cult that is pretty much a religion and a hereditary leadership.

Intifadah

16th July 2009, 14:24

:lol:

X3kdjcF3PRM

Dimentio

18th July 2009, 18:53

I have changed my mind, and even made a song for North Korea's new leader.

"Our Kim is an awesome God
He reigns from Paektu above
With wisdom, power and love
Our Kim is an awesome God"

NoMore

22nd July 2009, 01:53

Was he a some sort of god or something?

China studen

22nd July 2009, 09:54

China studen has the best putdowns ever. I am so stealing "You should be thrown into a pile of dog feces history."

Very good. I have hidden a number of dog feces. Waiting for you - the Western dogs to "steal" and eat.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 09:56

If he don't look up, I will make a Borat out of him...

Only the europa, you stupid people, only the birth of "Borat," the kind of fool.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 10:00

FUCK psycho

Give you "草泥马B".You never know the meaning of the Chinese.

http://ent.people.com.cn/mediafile/200906/17/F200906170908027188244621.jpg

khad

22nd July 2009, 10:13

Give you "草泥马B".You never know the meaning of the Chinese.

I dunno. I just found this fuckin hilarious.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 10:47

Look, take a deep breath and just keep calm, OK . Thats it, keep breathing . It doesnt do to keep up this frenetic rate of chanting Maoist slogans at the "running dogs of capitalism" or the "brainwahed lackeys of the bourgeosie" or whatever its you think we are. You might just do yourself an injury with all this shouting in BIG BOLD RED LETTERS.

Now whilst you are keeping calm and breathing deeply , let me just tell you this. I am not a statistican. Nor do I think you are. We both rely on estimates of famine deaths provided by other people. The North Korean government itself has said about 220,000 people died of the famine. You dont deny this do you?

Here's what the Asian Times says
http://www.atimes.com/koreas/CE23Dg02.html :

Let's begin with a rare and welcome event: perhaps the first ever detailed data from the horse's mouth. On May 15, Choe Su-hon, one of Pyongyang's nine deputy foreign ministers, quantified the grim truth at a Unicef conference in Beijing. Almost a quarter of a million people - 220,000 to be exact - died of famine between 1995 and 1998. As a result, and also due to medical shortages, average life expectancy fell from 73.2 in 1993 to 66.8 in 1999. Showing who exactly bore the brunt, infant mortality (under 5s) almost doubled from 27 to 48 per 1,000 people. Choe also gave data on a related disaster: his country's wider health care crisis. In 1994, 86 percent of people had access to save drinking water; by 1996, only 53 percent did. And the rate of vaccination against polio and measles fell from 90 percent in 1990 to just 50 percent by 1997.

Most other estimates put the number who died much higher - anything up to 3 million dead

See for example:

http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5429.html

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-4-9/53901.html

Now I dont know about you but I reckon a reasonable guess would be somewhere in the middle. The 600,000 figures Ive come across is repeated on several sites. It seems to be a reasonable one. Can we believe the North Korean's figures of 220,000. Well, no, becuase they have a vested interest in presenting as a low as possible figure. Can we believe the figure of up to 3 millions. Well, no. for the opposite reason. So it seems safe to say a figure somewhere in the middle is the safest bet.

I cannot tell you for certain if it is correct and you cannot tell me if it is wrong. The truth of the matter is that neither of us can know for sure but you make a judgement on the matter and to me the most likely correct figure is somewhere between the two extremes.

But even if I am wrong and you are right what you are admitting to is that at least 220,000 people died of famine in this brutal state capitalist regime.

Now , do you find this acceptable?

Here

1, I can honestly tell you. I am always calm. Even if I use the red (my aim is only to emphasize. Because before, no matter how stressed I am. You always evade the fundamental issue), and do you think I am not calm, I was still very easy. Because I have seen in China as early as various forms of right-wing.

2, I use "bourgeois running dogs." And so on. Some of the reasons for contempt of the terms is as follows: since the bourgeois running dogs of the leaders of the revolutionary people's contempt. We have what you need to maintain a respected? After all, was the only damage you. First of all, you do not respect themselves, only to be insulted for.

3, "Asia Times" evidence. This is a step forward. That being the case. However, thinking of your bourgeois prejudices lead you do not believe the evidence of those closer to the truth.

4, for me to teach you.
First. http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5429.html
This is a Carnegie Foundation's website. Haha, the Carnegie Endowment Fund is a what kind of an organization? ! You live in the West. I believe you know better than me.
The author of this book is also well-known bourgeois media: "International Herald Tribune" the author.
His works also have access to "Masayoshi Ohira Prize." This award is to encourage the peaceful evolution of the book. For example, "Deng Xiaoping's great," "Jiang Zemin of China under the rule of the great" (I am just an example. I forgot the name of a specific book).
You look at the introduction of the book "The second part of the book addresses the humanitarian and ethical dilemmas posed for the outside world in dealing with a government as ruthless as the government of North Korea." Do you think, this is not called the "bias" should be What is it?

II. http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-4-9/53901.html
This is a new joke. Do you know what this site are my forces?
I tell you, this is an evil cult "Falun Gong" Web site. One feature of this site, many Hong Kong people are aware that - rumors.
North Korea in a few years ago train bombings have taken place. At that time, is just the end of Kim Jong Il to visit China, and when returning. At that time, rumors said that this site: Kim Jong Il is dead. To this day, the site also claims that Kim Jong-il is now "a substitute." Because he was already dead.
You see, you prefer to believe that these well-known rumor sites, do not believe that the North Korea government. Your mentality is very distorted.

5, philosophy idiot. You can see "the surface." You can see the Korean people have died of famine occurred. But. How can you not root cause of thinking what is it? Who is the cause North Korea blocked. North Korea's economic decline led to this?
That is your master - imperialism! If you want to denounce, you should denounce imperialism. Rather than the ridiculous to turn bark of socialism.
If you do not change their flawed way of thinking, you always only see the word "superficial", but do not know what is "real."

China studen

22nd July 2009, 10:53

That's exactly part of the reason why so many people on the left criticise North Korea. The proletariat doesn't hold much power. The leadership as we see is passed down. In a real Socialist state there would be elections in which the Proletariat would choose leaders. Also, as I was arguing before, I don't believe North Korea to be an authentic Socialist state, however I do support Kim Il-Sung's struggles against Imperialism. Other than that, his politics pretty much suck. Juche is fucked up, resulting in a personality cult that is pretty much a religion and a hereditary leadership.

If the "Juche" is what you said "fucked." Then you must be impotence.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 10:57

See, as we agree, struggling against American imperialism isn't automatically good in itself (otherwise we'd support the Japanese, because they also fought against American imperialism in WWII. But we don't, because the alternative they fought for wasn't any better.) And we agree that there's nothing good about Juche in itself. So, if we only support struggles against imperialism if they're in the name of something better, and Juche isn't a good thing, why should we support Kim struggling to overthrow Japanese imperialism and replace it with his own personality cult? If the Korean proletariat have no real power either way, why should internationalists like Korean workers being subjected to a Korean dictatorship any more than we like them being subjected to a Japanese occupation?

Bourgeois running dogs system a very high regard for the United States. However, they do not want to directly admit. It is a vain attempt by: obliterate the fundamental difference between - "class distinction" sophistry to prove the socialist North Korea = capitalism. Perfectly justifiable to join them in order to achieve the purpose of capitalism.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 11:00

I have changed my mind, and even made a song for North Korea's new leader.

"Our Kim is an awesome God
He reigns from Paektu above
With wisdom, power and love
Our Kim is an awesome God"

As "Communist Manifesto" and referred to: a ghost in the earth reverberate.

Socialist bourgeois reactionaries always regarded as a "ghost" or "terrible" things. They fear that the power of socialism.

China studen

22nd July 2009, 11:08

China studen

22nd July 2009, 11:10

Was he a some sort of god or something?

He has no policy of any big mistakes.

Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution, there are some extremes. But North Korea did not.

Kim Jong Il is a great leader, he is not only a threat to break the imperialist, but also leading to revival of the country and the people.

robbo203

22nd July 2009, 11:53

You see, you prefer to believe that these well-known rumor sites, do not believe that the North Korea government. Your mentality is very distorted.

I dont "believe" any set of figures including those put out by the North Korean government. The figures range from the very conservative one put out by the North Korean government to , at the other extreme, something like 3 millions deaths. Most seem to settle around the 600K mark. Which one is correct? Frankly, I dont know. Nor do you. So I make a judgement. The true figure is likely to be somewhere in between these extremes.

Now a question for you. You say I believe the figures put out by other well known rumour sites (I dont actually, I merely cited them). But why do YOU believe the figures put out by the North Korean Government. What makes YOU so sure they are correct? Evidence please

23rd July 2009, 09:05

It appears that there aren't a lot of Chinese who view their state as a capitalist one, instead they seem to believe that their state-capitalist system is socialism, be it through the propaganda of the state or lack of real socioeconomic knowledge.

Which makes a majority of the dissidents in china pro free market ones - mostly supported by foreign business. (excluding of course the pro-Tibet movement).

I hope the Chinese people learn what real communism is through education and destroy the current state capitalist one. But I fear the state capitalist regime will collapse and be replace with a full fledged market one with an elite oligarch. I think Trotsky's writing is relevant to this particular state.

Furthermore it annoys me how current western terminology defines China as socialist and how the masses assume this to be true, such as communism with the USSR, these were states that failed to implement socialist policy and ideals, however none of this is elaborated in western media as it would oppose business interests..

If China does go full fledged open market, then you'll see multi-billion dollar companies run by oligarchs, a HUGE mafia, and the end of any state provided services such as health care etc.

Also.. if you look at Chinas foriegn policy whilst it has been psuedo-socialist, it hasn't intervened a lot in other countries (yes there was tibet, Korea, and some other indochinese states - but what needs to be taken into account is that in most cases it was reactionary to a foreign military presence in the region (except tibet of course))

Now.. if we have a capitalist china similar to the United States (economically) then we'll surely have an expansionist china or at least one that will gladly intervene in foreign countries to serve it's ruling classes business interests.

The Ungovernable Farce

23rd July 2009, 12:38

If the "Juche" is what you said "fucked." Then you must be impotence.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that SolidarityWithIran is female, so you're right, she probably is unable to maintain an erection. What does any of this have to do with the serious business of this thread, which is meant to be about lolling at a dead state capitalist bastard?

Josef Balin

24th July 2009, 17:24

No argument here, hence why I'm hanging out on RevLeft. The Democratic "People's" Republic of Korea is part of that oppressive capitalist system.

no u.

Plenty of "human rights" NGOs with no particular pro-Western ideological bias have verified the atrocities committed by the Kim dynasty while also pointing out atrocities of a similar scale committed by Western client-states. If you want to ignore the facts, fine, but don't expect me to think any more of you than of a "Holocaust revisionist".

You get points on innovative put-downs, though...

How is the "Kim dynasty" reminiscent of a dynasty at all, other than Kim Il-sung was his father and you are particularly lazy in your analysis?

I was gone for like a month and this thread is still here and I don't feel like reading a bunch of internet forum pages that are probably back and forths, but how do you respond to the social services, free land use (one of the most socialist things I can think of), etc? As most of us are Marxists and even most of the Anarchists are class strugglist, we realize the economic is more important than the political, yes? Then how do you respond to, besides Cuba, the most socialist economic system in the world run by a mismanaging, semi-autocratic elite? Especially with the purges committed early on of the Korean Anarchist and Trotskyist opposition movements which were the only thing that could possibly be better than the current system, or do you think that a unified Korea ala German reunification would be more progressive?

I'm not entirely sure what's being argued anymore actually, as you present a legitimate criticism (220,000 people dying, probably around half a million overall when you include less direct factors) to the regime wrapped in Western propaganda (calling it a "dynasty") and when I was posting it seemed we were arguing whether or not Kim Il-Sung was a progressive figure when looking at what else could have happened in Korean (and, more importantly, international proletarian) history. I would have to say overall yes, that overall the losses of democratic freedom (that have not been gained by their capitalist brothers to the South) are less important than the economic gains the people have. On second analysis it looks like china studen is fully supportive of Juche and Kim Jong-Il, which I think is a grave error in his theoretical analysis of things, and you may just be arguing against that, so my apologies if you were.

Pogue

24th July 2009, 18:00

Only on RevLeft (and Soviet Empire) would there be someone fucked up enough in their thought as to expect us to mourn this man.

Agrippa

24th July 2009, 23:55

How is the "Kim dynasty" reminiscent of a dynasty at all, other than Kim Il-sung was his father [emp. added]

That's what makes it a dynasty.

If it makes you feel any better, the Bushes and the Kennedies are dynasties as well.

As most of us are Marxists and even most of the Anarchists are class strugglist, we realize the economic is more important than the political, yes?The concept of "the political" as seperate from "the economic" is an anti-scientific and anti-Marxian. A true disciple of Marx would see "the political" as beeing irreconcilibly rooted in "the economic".

There's also nothing implicit to being a "class strugglist anarchist" that requires believing that certain manifestations of oppression randomly designted as "political" oppression are less important than certain manifestations of oppression randomly designated as "economic" oppression.

Then how do you respond to, besides Cuba, the most socialist economic system in the world run by a mismanaging, semi-autocratic elite?Socialism (within this context) is just a form of capitalist control. Sweden is also socialistic (in the same sense Cuba is) and it's also more "democratic" than Cuba - however Sweden is still a bourgeois state.

do you think that a unified Korea ala German reunification would be more progressive? I don't tend to think of the actions of my enemies in terms of being more or less "progressive".

I'm not entirely sure what's being argued anymore actually, as you present a legitimate criticism (220,000 people dying, probably around half a million overall when you include less direct factors) to the regime wrapped in Western propaganda (calling it a "dynasty")How is mocking the nepotism of the Kim regime an indication of "Western" sympathies? I guess in order to show how "anti-Western" we are, we should just bite our tongues and accept the excessive nepotism of any reigme that challenges Western hegemony.

I would have to say overall yes, that overall the losses of democratic freedom (that have not been gained by their capitalist brothers to the South) are less important than the economic gains the people have."Yeah, sure, our capitalist state is more oppressive than others in some ways, but it's also better in other ways!"

This is the same argument always used by capitalist apologists who are loyal to a specific faction of the ruling-class. What is the purpose of these mental exercises other than to make excuses for compromise/collaboration with the class-enemy, for forestalling efforts to create the conditions of communism?

China studen

3rd August 2009, 08:33

I dont "believe" any set of figures including those put out by the North Korean government. The figures range from the very conservative one put out by the North Korean government to , at the other extreme, something like 3 millions deaths. Most seem to settle around the 600K mark. Which one is correct? Frankly, I dont know. Nor do you. So I make a judgement. The true figure is likely to be somewhere in between these extremes.

Now a question for you. You say I believe the figures put out by other well known rumour sites (I dont actually, I merely cited them). But why do YOU believe the figures put out by the North Korean Government. What makes YOU so sure they are correct? Evidence please

1, I have already given sufficient reasons to prove that you have raised, the data from a variety of Western unreasonable. You can not force these facts "do not believe that."

2, this problem is similar to your friend's question: Why can not be said that during World War II the United States and North Korea as it is against Japanese militarism? As different in nature. Determines the class nature of the country I believe that the proletariat.