Iso

[RedScare]

I've discovered that the only radical leftist group active on my soon-to-be university campus is the International Socialist Organization. I have no idea who these guys are, besides a cursory internet search, which labels them as Trotskyists. Anyone have any experience with them?

[MarxSchmarx]

Just out of curiosity, are you a Trot? The reason I ask is that unless you are pretty committed to the Trotskyist (or the Maoist, or the anarcho-whateverist, etc...) line, it doesn't make sense to join a group "for the sake of getting active". Sure, you might meet some great activists, and exposure is a great way to hash out your own political views. And I'm all for nonsectarian organizing. But I think you need to have a solid understanding of your ideological bent before you choose how best to get involved.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I've discovered that the only radical leftist group active on my soon-to-be university campus is the International Socialist Organization. I have no idea who these guys are, besides a cursory internet search, which labels them as Trotskyists. Anyone have any experience with them?

I have heard of this group briefly, and yes I'm pretty sure they're Trotskyist. I don't really know anything about them besides that though.

[Communist Theory]

I doubt they are radical.
Give it a go though go to a meeting or something see what they are about.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I doubt they are radical.
Give it a go though go to a meeting or something see what they are about.

No, I think they are radical. I would agree with you that RedScare would have to go to a meeting himself to find out if he likes the group or not.

[Communist Theory]

How do you define Radical?

[LOLseph Stalin]

How do you define Radical?

Well for starters, if a group believes in Revolution rather than Reformism they would be radical.

[Communist Theory]

Well then they are radical in your eyes.
If they were chucking stones at politicians they would be radical to me.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Well then they are radical in your eyes.
If they were chucking stones at politicians they would be radical to me.

Protesting in the streets would be radical, also working to get other people organized would be too. Throwing stones at politicians would just be another added step.

[Communist Theory]

or we can go really radical and kidnap politicians and tape their beheading and broadcast it on Al-Jazzera because they don't follow our political ideology...

[LOLseph Stalin]

or we can go really radical and kidnap politicians and tape their beheading and broadcast it on Al-Jazzera because they don't follow our political ideology...

Sure, and be labelled as terrorists by the United States. :rolleyes: That would really get people on our side too...

[Communist Theory]

It was a sarcastic reference to radical Islam..

[OriginalGumby]

Hey, I am a member of the ISO branch in Madison WI. I think you should definitely go to some meetings with some of my comrades where you are going to school. I have been a member for three years now and I have agreed with what I saw. I don't know what your political ideas are but we organize on the basis that both reforms to the existing system and socialism can be achieved through the self-emancipation of regular people. We organize to develop both the activist left and the revolutionary socialist left as a part of it through activism and political education of ourselves and others. We are the largest such group in the US which isn't saying too much unfortunately but we aim to change that. Check out some of our material to see if it makes sense to you.
http://socialistworker.org/
http://www.isreview.org/

Solidarity

[OriginalGumby]

Oh and I would describe the ISO as radical because we are not just an electoral party aiming to reform capitalism to socialism because I don't think that historically works. We seek a mass movement of workers(ie factory, nurses, teachers, transportation, etc) taking over the economic system to run it in our own collective interest democratically. Its not really legal but then again the laws were set up to maintain the status quo. Also we don't really do pointless ineffective things that get you arrested for no good reason like throwing stones at politicians either. There is a logical balance of legal and semilegal and illegal activities based on what grows the movement. Peace.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Hey, I am a member of the ISO branch in Madison WI. I think you should definitely go to some meetings with some of my comrades where you are going to school. I have been a member for three years now and I have agreed with what I saw. I don't know what your political ideas are but we organize on the basis that both reforms to the existing system and socialism can be achieved through the self-emancipation of regular people. We organize to develop both the activist left and the revolutionary socialist left as a part of it through activism and political education of ourselves and others. We are the largest such group in the US which isn't saying too much unfortunately but we aim to change that. Check out some of our material to see if it makes sense to you.
http://socialistworker.org/
http://www.isreview.org/

Solidarity

Do you know if there's a branch in Canada? I'm interested to find out about the ISO now too.

[RedScare]

I'm a Marxist-Leninist with Trotskyist sympathies. I think I'll definitely work with ISO on campus, but I shall reserve judgment on joining them.

[Kassad]

Talk to Random Precision. I know he's a member. The International Socialist Organization has a 'branch', if you would call it that, in my city. They really only hold bi-monthly meetings and they practically refuse to take part in any of the struggles I've asked them to take part in. Regardless, that's my city. They have a pretty decent membership size and they've been at all the anti-war demonstrations I've attended in larger cities. They publish a lot of stuff, so I think that's a testament to their financial capabilities.

The ISO and the PSL actually had a little back-and-forth going on 1989 Tiananmen Square demonstrations. Though I think their line is flawed, they're one of the more active organizations in the United States. Of course, they're very Trotskyist, in that they rarely defend socialist states or former ones. Also, keep in mind where you fall on the issue of the Soviet Union (authentic socialist, state capitalist, degenerated workers state) as that's a key thing that sets the ISO apart from other Trotskyist groups.

[Comrade Ian]

Hey, I'm a member from Santa Cruz and San Francisco and I just got back from our West Coast Socialism Conference (Which was absolutely amazing, especially Brian Jone's performance of "Marx in Soho" and getting to meet people like Dahr Jamail, Mike Davis, and so forth). I'd recommend you check out the International Socialist Review which is our monthly publication and our bi-weekly newspaper Socialist Worker to get a better understanding of where we come from, and any book published by Haymarket Books is something that more or less has our support.

If you have any questions about the kind of work we do, or our theory, feel free to ask me and I can do my best to provide an answer. I've only been an official member since the beginning of this year but I did some pretty serious study of Marxist theory and the ISO/other contemporary left groups before deciding to join.

[tedster]

I tried to ask this question before, but I think that I may have come off as being to vauge. But how does the decision making process work in the ISO? Is it a loose federation?

[Misanthrope]

Well for starters, if a group believes in Revolution rather than Reformism they would be radical.

The etymology of radicalism means with roots (historical).

Any sensible revolutionary would be a reformist as well. The masses will love the benefits from reform and will eventually see that it can only go so far, that is where revolution comes in.

[LOLseph Stalin]

The etymology of radicalism means with roots (historical).

Any sensible revolutionary would be a reformist as well. The masses will love the benefits from reform and will eventually see that it can only go so far, that is where revolution comes in.

Well yes, I was generalizing. Of course we should always try reformism first, but like you said that can only go so far. Thus that is where organizing workers comes in. If the workers are organized and educated they'll realize that too that reformism won't solve all problems. That is when we'll have to resort to revolution.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

At my university, I asked the Trotskyist group on my campus if they admitted anarchists. Their response was, "We're Trotskyist." They then attempted to tell me of the failures of anarchism throughout history and its ideological failures. A few years later, I checked them out again. This time, they told me of the glorious successes of the Chinese revolution. As it turns out, China is really communist! It's just Western propoganda telling us that China is undemocratic and flawed. It's actually doing great and everyone is thrilled with the great communist society.

I was a member of an socialist anti-war group at one point as well. They held a conference involving opposition to the War in Afghanistan. A Trotskyist member felt the need to come and argue alternative matters with the guest speaker. This meeting was actually held as the result of a conflict with a reformist group that wanted the same conference held while excluding a certain speaker. So there was also a conflict between those two political organizations.

Three political left organizations. All three of them accomplished very little or nothing. All three of them hated each other.

I need to become more active in the politics of my area. But when this happened as a young university student, moving from a small town to the big city, it was rather discourging. Political activism is hard sometimes.

Trotskyists were mean to me and told me lies. Bad Trotskyists.

[LOLseph Stalin]

At my university, I asked the Trotskyist group on my campus if they admitted anarchists. Their response was, "We're Trotskyist." They then attempted to tell me of the failures of anarchism throughout history and its ideological failures. A few years later, I checked them out again. This time, they told me of the glorious successes of the Chinese revolution. As it turns out, China is really communist! It's just Western propoganda telling us that China is undemocratic and flawed. It's actually doing great and everyone is thrilled with the great communist society.

I was a member of an socialist anti-war group at one point as well. They held a conference involving opposition to the War in Afghanistan. A Trotskyist member felt the need to come and argue alternative matters with the guest speaker. This meeting was actually held as the result of a conflict with a reformist group that wanted the same conference held while excluding a certain speaker. So there was also a conflict between those two political organizations.

Three political left organizations. All three of them accomplished very little or nothing. All three of them hated each other.

I need to become more active in the politics of my area. But when this happened as a young university student, moving from a small town to the big city, it was rather discourging. Political activism is hard sometimes.

Trotskyists were mean to me and told me lies. Bad Trotskyists.

Yes, bad Trotskyists... :rolleyes:

Anyway, despite being a Trot myself this tends to be a common problem among some Trotskyist groups. We're famously sectarian. I'm not going to deny it either. I actually hate all this sectarianism, but I agree with most of Trotsky's ideas so I still label myself as one.

P.S- It's unfortunate you had to put up with those experiences.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

P.S- It's unfortunate you had to put up with those experiences.

Yeah, I'm over it by now. Mainly, I am focusing on educating myself right now. Even though they won't always admit it, the action-based leftist approach has a philosophy behind it.

Going out with a pamphlet seems to educate people, and it might get them to vote for a reformist agenda. However, I'm not sure how legitimate leftist movements work, what they do, and how they accomplish something. I'm sure some of them have a system down, and they've probably written a book somewhere.

You just never here about "left-wing protests accomplished..." that often. It's also about somebody smashing a building or something.

[Sam_b]

As it turns out, China is really communist! It's just Western propoganda telling us that China is undemocratic and flawed. It's actually doing great and everyone is thrilled with the great communist society.


I have never heard any IST or former IST comrades/organisations say this, ever.

You may also want to check out the SWP's International Socialism Journal (www.isj.org.uk (http://www.isj.org.uk)), our quarterly theoretical publication, which has featured ISO writers in the past and which shares a very similar ideological line to the ISO. They were formerly part of the International Socialist Tendency alongside the SWP until they were expelled in 2001, reasons and legitimacy which are still disputed. In my opinion, its about time we get the ISO comrades back in based on their activism over the past few years especially.

The group also shares a lot of ideological alignment with the American socialist Hal Draper and the concept of 'socialism from below'.

[Intelligitimate]

The ISO is run like a business, and this will become apparent to you if you interact with their organization in any depth. The people at the top of the organization basically make a living through this group, and hence why they want you to hawk their shitty books and their magazine and newspaper (plus pay your dues!).

The ISO is not "Trotskyist" in the Orthodox sense. They are really Cliffites/Shachtmanites, though both these tendencies uphold Trotsky while abandoning his ideas on "degenerated workers' states" for even more reactionary anti-communist crap. They are closest ideologically with the British SWP, but like all Trots, they eventually split with them.

As far as their activism is concerned, they are big on doing liberal stuff, like opposing the death penalty. They recruit mainly from students, so don't expect many workers or black people in your chapter. If you just want to hang out on campus and do "radical shit," the ISO may work with you. It depends on how retardedly into Trotskyism the particularly chapter is.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I've discovered that the only radical leftist group active on my soon-to-be university campus is the International Socialist Organization. I have no idea who these guys are, besides a cursory internet search, which labels them as Trotskyists. Anyone have any experience with them?

The ISO is a Trotskyist group that believes in revolution from the bottom up. The best way to find out about where the group stands and if your politics are close to ours is to simply ignore the marginal sectarians and check out the website and decide for yourself (this goes for any group really):

www.socialistworker.org (http://www.socialistworker.org)

If you like what the articals have to say and generally agree with our points in "where we stand" then I'd say check out a meeting or contact some local folks.

The DC branch does some good work and Dave Zirin works with the branch there and is a fantastic (and hilarious) radical sports writer.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I have never heard any IST or former IST comrades/organisations say this, ever.

You may also want to check out the SWP's International Socialism Journal (www.isj.org.uk (http://www.isj.org.uk)), our quarterly theoretical publication, which has featured ISO writers in the past and which shares a very similar ideological line to the ISO. They were formerly part of the International Socialist Tendency alongside the SWP until they were expelled in 2001, reasons and legitimacy which are still disputed. In my opinion, its about time we get the ISO comrades back in based on their activism over the past few years especially.

The group also shares a lot of ideological alignment with the American socialist Hal Draper and the concept of 'socialism from below'.
Cheers! I hope we can rebuild some ties with the UK SWP as well as with other groups with similar political outlooks in the US as well.

In the face of this capitalist crisis, I think all groups on the organized left in the US should take a close inward look at their practices and shed some of the sectarian-ness that all groups have adopted to varying degrees in the past few decades of retreat for the working class in the US. The left is too small for the challenges ahead of us and if we don't push outward to meet the workers and students and immigrants and opressed minorites who are radicaliszing and questioning the system, I am afraid of the anti-immigrant or nationalist or right-wing populist forces that will fill that vaccume as the crisis of capitalism continues and anger grows.

[Sam_b]

Just thought i'd pop back in to deal with intelligitimate's post, of course like all sectarian whinge-fests its full of ridiculous inaccuracies and not one source either.


The ISO is run like a business, and this will become apparent to you if you interact with their organization in any depth. The people at the top of the organization basically make a living through this group, and hence why they want you to hawk their shitty books and their magazine and newspaper (plus pay your dues!).

No wonder there's no source - fancy proving anything?
First of all, identify and define who or what you mean by the 'top'. If its anything like the SWP then the Executive Committee is full time and the members are paid a small wage. Do you have some sort of problem with this?
Now, I don't seem to get your grievance with a publishing house. Most organisations have one, featuring a wide range of their authors and viewpoints, as well as distributing other writers and theoretical publications. Again, what is your problem with this?



The ISO is not "Trotskyist" in the Orthodox sense. They are really Cliffites/Shachtmanites, though both these tendencies uphold Trotsky while abandoning his ideas on "degenerated workers' states" for even more reactionary anti-communist crap. They are closest ideologically with the British SWP, but like all Trots, they eventually split with them.[/quote]

You're going to have to try harder, or explain what you mean by 'anti-communist crap'. I'm not sure you're aware of this, but if you're trying to win people round to your point of view you have to provide specific examples.

As a POI, the ISO did not 'split' from the IST in the normal sense. Indeed, they were expelled from the organisation, and as far as I know contact is being made between the two groups again. To make it clearer, the SWP could never split with the ISO anyway, as they were two groups within the International Socialist Tendency.



As far as their activism is concerned, they are big on doing liberal stuff, like opposing the death penalty. They recruit mainly from students, so don't expect many workers or black people in your chapter. If you just want to hang out on campus and do "radical shit," the ISO may work with you. It depends on how retardedly into Trotskyism the particularly chapter is.

This is verging on the ridiculous now. There won't be any 'blacks' in your branch, or workers, how for example? It seems that you picked and chose Black people out of nothing just as a 'shock' factor, and of course you won't back it up. Whats your problem with students as well, or are we going to completely ignore the radical student movements from history, such as France 68 or the anti-Vietnam war movement?

That and the disgusting use of 'retardedly'. Please do not use prejudiced language to add more insult to your sourceless and baseless accusations.

[Q]

I've discovered that the only radical leftist group active on my soon-to-be university campus is the International Socialist Organization. I have no idea who these guys are, besides a cursory internet search, which labels them as Trotskyists. Anyone have any experience with them?
Oh hey Mao, wasn't aware you also ventured revleft :p
Oh well, you my answer (http://theinternational-cn.com/index.php?showtopic=6652&view=findpost&p=78343) on this :)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Just thought i'd pop back in to deal with intelligitimate's post, of course like all sectarian whinge-fests its full of ridiculous inaccuracies and not one source either.Right.

One of the things that attracted me to the ISO was the clear political analysis and principles coupled with a fighting for reforms in order to help rebuild the left in the US. The ISO is a far from infallible, but I think if the majority of the organized radical left had a outward focus similar to the ISO, we would all be in a much stronger position today.

Having political analysis is important and knowing what is behind differences between some groups is important but the vast majority of sectarianism on the US left today is a hangover from the defeat of the 1960s movements followed by 30 years of defeats and retreats for our side in the class war. The fact that since the immigrant rights protests a few years ago, May Day marches are actually populated by immigrants and gay-rights activists rather than just small groups of socialists and anarchists is huge symbolic evidence of the political shift and rebirth of class-consciousness that is just beginning in the US.

The next decade is most likely going to see many more explosions of protest in the US (probably not permanent movements at first because of the lack of a real organized left) and if groups rely on sectarianism, they are going to be disoriented and left behind in an era of the potential radicalization of huge numbers of people.

As to the specific charges:
The ISO is run like a business? Even non-Marxists know that the point of business is to make profit - the point of the ISO is to get rid of the profit system. I guess I can see how someone might think that the ISO is like a business since lately so many business have done a pretty good job of destroying people's faith in the profit system and neoliberal ideology.

We have dues and are trying to build stable and visible sources of radical left voices. We sell a newspaper which presents the organization's take on current events and a magazine which takes on historical and theoretical topics as well as publishing non-ISO left viewpoints. This takes money and I don't know about you but I could not self-publish a magazine and get it into stores so that radical ideas can compete with the Newsweeks and the Mother Jones and whatever right-wingers read. So, until capitalism is abolished or a worker-controlled magazine printer allows us to use their machinery for free, it will take money to get left-wing ideas out there. I don't agree with everything on Counterpunch or Znet, but with the state of the left I am overjoyed to see stable publications and websites presenting a independant and radical alternatives - this is what we are also trying to do with our publications.

[Revy]

The ISO aren't that bad, ideologically, but their electoral endorsements and political activity hasn't been that great. For example, although they did not endorse anyone in 2008, they endorsed Nader in previous elections and only really politically supported the Green Party.

The practice of supporting Nader and/or the Greens is widespread on the so-called "revolutionary" left in the US though. Our sections in the IMT and the CWI both have done that.

I would like to see them run their own candidates. I mean, it's not like you have to have the word "Party" in your name to run candidates. At least I think you don't have to.....

[Jimmie Higgins]

The ISO aren't that bad, ideologically, but their electoral endorsements and political activity hasn't been that great. For example, although they did not endorse anyone in 2008, they endorsed Nader in previous elections and only really politically supported the Green Party.

The practice of supporting Nader and/or the Greens is widespread on the so-called "revolutionary" left in the US though. Our sections in the IMT and the CWI both have done that.

I would like to see them run their own candidates. I mean, it's not like you have to have the word "Party" in your name to run candidates. At least I think you don't have to.....
I think the ISO's work with the Greens has been one of the most misunderstood and controversial stances the organization has taken (both within and without the group). It has also been one of the biggest learning experiences for the organization.

All of the ISO's near-term activites are basically attempts to help rebuild a broad left while injecting a radical and class anaylisis into that, rasing the politically profile of radical politics in the US, and attracting new members and new allies to our organization. One of the main charateristics of movements in the US since the 70s has been that because there is no independant left, when movements arise, liberals and democrats are able to quickly take over and push these movements into lobbying efforts or straight into the Democratic party. Coming out of the 90s, where the women and LGBT movement had gone from protesting bigots to fundraising auxiliaries for the Democratic Party and for Clinton, the author of Don't Ask Don't Tell and the Defense of Marriage Act, we saw the borad support for Nader's campaign as a way to challenge this hold that the Dems have on movements.

Our work with the Greens was part of an effort to help build the broad left - not to turn the greens into some kind of Labor party or whatnot... I think we went into that work with open eyes on that account. What we did hope was that a strongly independent 3rd party with broad appeal would help to erode the hold of the Democratic Party has on consciousness in the US. There are many 3rd parties with better politics, but for a moment, the Greens/Nader were able to tap into the mass dissatisfaction with the Democrats and Neoliberalism at the end of the Clinton years. We hoped that a strong Green party that was open to radical leftists like us could be a wedge into the ideological lock the 2 parties have on consciousness. What we underestimated was the hold over consciousness the Democrats had within the Greens themselves.

Side anecdote: When Arnold was running for Gov. of California, Peter Camejo (self described Watermelon: Green outside, red inside) ran as the Green candidate and while Arnold and the Democratic nominee argued how best to lower taxes to "attract business to the state", Camejo got to be on TV and tell this state "Tax the rich" and that there has been a one-sided war against workers living standards in the name of "attracting business". After the debate, confused TV reporters had to try and explain why polls showed that most people thought that Camejo had won the debate! I wish Camejo had lived to see all of the things he said about neo-liberalism and Arnold's policies come to pass with the absolute Depression that California is in now. I also wish he could run again and go on TV in today's California and say: "Tax the rich"!

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I was referring to a random Trotskyist group at my local university. I have no idea who, if anyone, they are affiliated with. Probably no one legitimate. I looked it up. They call themselves the "Friends of the Spartacus Youth Club."

[Revy]

I was referring to a random Trotskyist group at my local university. I have no idea who, if anyone, they are affiliated with. Probably no one legitimate. I looked it up. They call themselves the "Friends of the Spartacus Youth Club."

That's the Spartacists. The official name is International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist).

[LOLseph Stalin]

That's the Spartacists. The official name is International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist).

The Spartacists? Is it just me or does nobody like them anymore?

[Revy]

The Spartacists? Is it just me or does nobody like them anymore?

They have a reputation for sectarianism.

[LOLseph Stalin]

They have a reputation for sectarianism.

Ok, that's probably what I'm thinking of. I don't like sectarianism. :crying:

[tedster]

The ISO is run like a business, and this will become apparent to you if you interact with their organization in any depth. The people at the top of the organization basically make a living through this group, and hence why they want you to hawk their shitty books and their magazine and newspaper (plus pay your dues!).

The ISO is not "Trotskyist" in the Orthodox sense. They are really Cliffites/Shachtmanites, though both these tendencies uphold Trotsky while abandoning his ideas on "degenerated workers' states" for even more reactionary anti-communist crap. They are closest ideologically with the British SWP, but like all Trots, they eventually split with them.

As far as their activism is concerned, they are big on doing liberal stuff, like opposing the death penalty. They recruit mainly from students, so don't expect many workers or black people in your chapter. If you just want to hang out on campus and do "radical shit," the ISO may work with you. It depends on how retardedly into Trotskyism the particularly chapter is.

Well, this is probably the closest to someone answering my question, albeit, I don't think you were responding to me as far as I can tell. I was wondering about how it runs. Though I do still need to find out considerably more.

The American anarchist movement has been frustrating for me. I am an anarchist at heart, but if I have a good sense of how democratic it is, and how well people at the bottom can override any hierarchy when people object to any policy or issue.

[Intelligitimate]

No wonder there's no source - fancy proving anything?lol, how am I supposed to cite my own experiences working with the group? You want a URL to my memories?

This evaluation of the group is pretty much the same between groups that have dealings with the ISO. I've been to their major events, talked to the top people in the organization, etc. I've asked people where the funds they collect for their huge events are going. This organization is a business, and any interaction with them from someone who is being honest will say the same. Just looking at how slick the ISR is should tell you that, lol.


Now, I don't seem to get your grievance with a publishing house.My only real grievance with their publishing house is they spew bullshit.


You're going to have to try harder, or explain what you mean by 'anti-communist crap'.lol

I mean they pose as radical but are the most sectarian, anti-communist group on the Left. They hate all socialist countries, and openly call for revolution in places like Cuba! Hell, their line on Zimbabwe is fucking pro-imperialist: they literally admit the MDC is in the pay of Washington/London, and side with them anyway!


I'm not sure you're aware of this, but if you're trying to win people round to your point of view you have to provide specific examples.Why should I get into a long debate about the merits of Cliff's anti-communist garbage theories of "State Capitalism"? Telling people he did things like refuse to denounce the imperialist slaughter of millions of Koreans should be enough. Or pointing out Shachtman supported the US invasion of Vietnam before turning into a neo-con should be more than enough for the people reading this to make up their minds about what scumbags the theoretical fathers of the ISO are.


This is verging on the ridiculous now. There won't be any 'blacks' in your branch, or workers, how for example?lol, I've been to several chapters of the ISO around the country, and there are hardly any workers or minorities to be found. This is to be expected, because the ISO is mainly recruiting from white liberal petty bourgeois college students.


Whats your problem with students as well, or are we going to completely ignore the radical student movements from history, such as France 68 or the anti-Vietnam war movement?I don't have a problem with reaching out to students. I have a problem with so-called communist organizations that contain barely any workers, or one that barely do any real work with unions. The ISO doesn't even try to be the party of the working class or the oppressed. Not to mention they are fanatically anti-communist.

[Sam_b]

No sources, no evidence, no nothing. 'Spewing crap' is not an example. 'Anti communist' is not an example. Nothing to support any assertions of 'recruiting from white liberal petty bourgeois college students'. Why should you get into a debate? To prove that youre not espousing sectarian bullshit, thats why.


So funnily enough, I'm not going to respond to this rubbish. I'll leave it for the ISO comrades.

[Jimmie Higgins]

lol, how am I supposed to cite my own experiences working with the group? You want a URL to my memories?You mean your sectarian opinions.


My only real grievance with their publishing house is they spew bullshit.Now we get to the truth of the matter, you don't agree with out politics and this is the source of your dislike of the entire organization, not your "memories". How about this: stick to a political critique and explain your differences and argue why your perspective is correct. My guess is that you are afraid to do that because you know that your arguments will not be popular - so instead you attack other groups for "not being revolutionary" enough for you: this approach is te definition of sectarianism.


lol, I've been to several chapters of the ISO around the country, and there are hardly any workers or minorities to be found. This is to be expected, because the ISO is mainly recruiting from white liberal petty bourgeois college students.
Here you are attributing the objective problems in the radical left to one small organization. I did not know that radicals have such a huge impact inside the labor movement of the US right now. This accusation is just silly. Of course we would love to have a larger role in the labor movement and a larger left in the labor movement in general. In the 80s the ISO made a consious decision to focus on campus work because of the political atmosphere at the time. Since then we have worked to build ties with labor and impact the labor movement when possible. There are many ISO members who are militants in their unions and we have members taking leading roles in working class movements around immigration and civil rights.


I don't have a problem with reaching out to students. I have a problem with so-called communist organizations that contain barely any workers, or one that barely do any real work with unions. The ISO doesn't even try to be the party of the working class or the oppressed. Not to mention they are fanatically anti-communist.

I'm here in an immigrant neighborhood in Oakland California - come visit and I can show you all the white liberal petty bourgeois allies we have in the civil rights movement for Justice for Oscar Grant, a young black father murderd by cops in my neighborhood.

You are correct to say that the ISO doesn't even try to be the party of the working class - that's because we are much too small to even consider being a "Party" at this point let alone the vanguard of a working class movement that right now is limping along. I believe a vangurad party and possibly multiple parties vying with workers for that role will be built in the US - the ISO is trying to build a lasting political organization that could possibly take part in creating that party as the working class eventually begins to take the offensive in the class war.

Don't blame the ISO for the general problems and lack of a organized revolutionary left in the US. We are one of the largest radical groups in the US right now and we just had a conference of 900 plus people in San Francisco as well as another 900 people at our Chicago conference. I am very happy about that and it is a sign that people are looking for radical answers to the capitalist crisis - at the same time 1800 people is a crying shame when you think about the challenges that face us at this point in history. I hope we grow and I hope the IWW grows and the RCP and the PSL because we need an overall bigger left that can put working class and radical ideas into the class struggle so workers will be armed with knoledge of working class history and potential for transforming the world.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well, this is probably the closest to someone answering my question, albeit, I don't think you were responding to me as far as I can tell. I was wondering about how it runs. Though I do still need to find out considerably more.

Basically the ISO is democratic-centrist in organization. We have periodic decision making conventions where all members can draft their thoughts on a national perspective - representatives based on number of members in individual branches are elected by the members and sent to the conventions where our national perspective is decided. Each branch is expected to try to implement that political perspective but generally experimental on how best to carry out the national goals based on what the specific circumstances of that branch are. Decision making in each branch is done by democratic vote as well as an elected committee in the branch.

[ckaihatsu]

Well yes, I was generalizing. Of course we should always try reformism first, but like you said that can only go so far. Thus that is where organizing workers comes in. If the workers are organized and educated they'll realize that too that reformism won't solve all problems. That is when we'll have to resort to revolution.





The etymology of radicalism means with roots (historical).

Any sensible revolutionary would be a reformist as well. The masses will love the benefits from reform and will eventually see that it can only go so far, that is where revolution comes in.


These statements are identical, and remind me of Stalinism -- that leftists should develop (backward) social conditions up through the bourgeois apparatus, *then* fight for working-class socialist revolution.... Problem is, we've seen what happens when revolutionary-minded efforts get corralled into the nation-state system -- instead of the revolution *spreading* it becomes beholden to state-capitalist international competition and elitist bureaucratic careers.... (I'm thinking of the former U.S.S.R., of China, and of Cuba, in particular.)

Why can't we just solidly state that the best reforms we'd *ever* see would be the ones granted to the working class, * by the working class itself *, once it takes power *away* from the bourgeoisie? Anything less would be what we get by default, anyway, no thanks to the owners of capital, so why bother mentioning it?

Haven't others -- especially radicals -- gone before us in the attempt to win reforms from the state, only to fail miserably? Do we really need a re-run of all that or can't we just cut to the chase?...!


Chris





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-- Of all the Marxists in a roomful of people, I'm the Wilde-ist. --

[tedster]

Basically the ISO is democratic-centrist in organization. We have periodic decision making conventions where all members can draft their thoughts on a national perspective - representatives based on number of members in individual branches are elected by the members and sent to the conventions where our national perspective is decided. Each branch is expected to try to implement that political perspective but generally experimental on how best to carry out the national goals based on what the specific circumstances of that branch are. Decision making in each branch is done by democratic vote as well as an elected committee in the branch.

Thanks. I will look into them.

[Intelligitimate]

You mean your sectarian opinions. No, I would evaluate that is how the organization functions even if I weren't hostile to their ideology. They want to recruit people to mostly sell their stuff. It's like the Amyway of Leftism.



Now we get to the truth of the matter, you don't agree with out politics and this is the source of your dislike of the entire organization, not your "memories". While I don't like the politics, I was probably more disgusted just by the way the ISO operates. Everything is about money to them, and the events they promote, like their latest 2009 thing in Chicago, was like $90 for people to be a part of. The working class doesn't have $90 to spend on a weekend listening to intellectuals talk. You know who does? Affluent white college students not taking summer classes, and that's who showed up to it. I know, because I know several people who attended. There was no planned housing (spring for your own hotel), no planned food (buy your own), etc. That's how another event I went to of theirs was.


Even anarchists usually will let you crash at their places for free and dumpster you some vegan shit...



How about this: stick to a political critique and explain your differences and argue why your perspective is correct. The person getting involved with the ISO asked what the organization was like, not their ideology. Indeed, they thought my post was one of the more helpful ones in this entire thread: I'm telling him what one activist would tell another about what to expect in their experiences with that organization. I'm telling him what to expect: the ISO is run like a business. This experience may differ from chapter to chapter, but any experience with the upper-level of the organization will be exactly that.


I didn't say don't work with the ISO. That would be sectarian. I hope the person does, but will realize what they're getting into before they do, so they are better prepared to keep their distance if that is what they feel like doing.



My guess is that you are afraid to do that because you know that your arguments will not be popular - so instead you attack other groups for "not being revolutionary" enough for you: this approach is te definition of sectarianism. Sectarianism is what the ISO excels at: attacking people and movements in the fiercest terms and refusing to work with them because their politics differ. I would be more than willing to work with ISO people on certain issues, and I plan to do exactly that in the future.



Here you are attributing the objective problems in the radical left to one small organization. I did not know that radicals have such a huge impact inside the labor movement of the US right now. This accusation is just silly. Of course we would love to have a larger role in the labor movement and a larger left in the labor movement in general. In the 80s the ISO made a consious decision to focus on campus work because of the political atmosphere at the time. Since then we have worked to build ties with labor and impact the labor movement when possible. There are many ISO members who are militants in their unions and we have members taking leading roles in working class movements around immigration and civil rights. The problem is that the internal logic of how the ISO functions will prevent it from ever making serious inroads into the working class. You can't show up to union meetings trying to sell Socialist Worker and expect to get anywhere. The ISO's stance on the labor unions is also counterproductive and will never get them anywhere in the movement.



I'm here in an immigrant neighborhood in Oakland California - come visit and I can show you all the white liberal petty bourgeois allies we have in the civil rights movement for Justice for Oscar Grant, a young black father murderd by cops in my neighborhood. I didn't say the ISO does nothing, or that everything it does is bad. When you actually reach out to the community on issues like this, you will make a lot of friends among workers and oppressed nationalities. I hope you're doing more than trying to sell Socialist Worker to these people.



You are correct to say that the ISO doesn't even try to be the party of the working class I know. The ISO told me the same thing.



Don't blame the ISO for the general problems and lack of a organized revolutionary left in the US. We are one of the largest radical groups in the US right now and we just had a conference of 900 plus people in San Francisco as well as another 900 people at our Chicago conference.


Attended by mostly affluent white students who had nothing better to do with their summer.



I am very happy about that and it is a sign that people are looking for radical answers to the capitalist crisis - at the same time 1800 people is a crying shame when you think about the challenges that face us at this point in history. I hope we grow and I hope the IWW grows and the RCP and the PSL because we need an overall bigger left that can put working class and radical ideas into the class struggle so workers will be armed with knoledge of working class history and potential for transforming the world. I can agree with that. I personally doubt the ISO will ever be leading the working class, simply because of its pitiful efforts to actually do that. I would advise the ISO they need to stop focusing so much on students and more on the labor movement and oppressed nationalities, and learn to treat their comrades much better than they currently do. It's well known the ISO have a very high turn-over rate, because they simply don't care about making cadres, they care about dues and people selling their paper. I would also start looking seriously about where all the money the ISO collects is going, and if it really should be going to pay for the lifestyle of the people at top (and don't lie and say it doesn't, as I know better).

[redasheville]

The post above is pure slander.

Here in California, the ISO has many non-white members. Most of the members are working class. The committee that organized the SF May 1st march in 2006 met in our office. We have maintained a consistent presence in the immigrant right movement in the city ever since, including participating in organizing each and every May Day march. We have organized to defend immigrant workers from being deported. As for anti-racist work, we have organized against the death penalty, and have allies on death row. We have played a leading role in the fight for justice for Oscar Grant.

In the Bay Area, we have many members that are active in their unions. We have a member who is a shop steward, a member that was on a strike bargaining committee, and members that have formed militant rank and file caucuses in the SEIU and the local teachers union.

And unless the people sleeping on my floor/couch were mere phantoms, we do house people who come to our conferences who can't afford to get a place to crash, when possible.

[redasheville]

Oh and a quick point about our conference attendees being "affluent white college kids blah blah blah" leaders in the immigrant rights movement (Nativo V. Lopez for instance), leading Palestinian rights activists, family members and friends of Oscar Grant, even Mumia Abu Jamal (who called in via speaker phone from Death Row) attended/participated in our conference this year.

[Invincible Summer]

At my university, I asked the Trotskyist group on my campus if they admitted anarchists. Their response was, "We're Trotskyist." They then attempted to tell me of the failures of anarchism throughout history and its ideological failures. A few years later, I checked them out again. This time, they told me of the glorious successes of the Chinese revolution. As it turns out, China is really communist! It's just Western propoganda telling us that China is undemocratic and flawed. It's actually doing great and everyone is thrilled with the great communist society.

I was a member of an socialist anti-war group at one point as well. They held a conference involving opposition to the War in Afghanistan. A Trotskyist member felt the need to come and argue alternative matters with the guest speaker. This meeting was actually held as the result of a conflict with a reformist group that wanted the same conference held while excluding a certain speaker. So there was also a conflict between those two political organizations.

Three political left organizations. All three of them accomplished very little or nothing. All three of them hated each other.

I need to become more active in the politics of my area. But when this happened as a young university student, moving from a small town to the big city, it was rather discourging. Political activism is hard sometimes.

Trotskyists were mean to me and told me lies. Bad Trotskyists.

I noticed you're from Vancouver... would these Trotskyists happen to be the Spartacist Youth Club/Trotskyist League of Canada? I had associated with these people in the past, and they too left a sour taste in mouth.

And yeah, there aren't many groups here in Vancouver.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Intelligitimate,

The truth of the matter is that if you agreed with the political ideas we were putting out, you'd be happy to see us getting radical books into mainstream places and competing with the liberal garbage that is published; you would be happy to see us reprinting things like "The Soldier's Revolt" and getting it to our allies in IVAW and so on. Since you don't agree with our politics you don't want us to have our books read or have hundreds of workers and activists come to our 4 day conference each year. Instead of being upfront about this, you resort to sectarian slander.

Everything you have claimed has been misinformation that only helps make people suspicious of ALL organized left groups. Stick to political critiques - this can go even towards how we operate. Maybe you don't think left-wing literature and arguments should be in book stores. Maybe, as you suggested, dumpster-diving will attract working class people to left-wing ideas (I think that would be a crazy idea, personally).

I think that the radical left has too few permanent and stable outlets to reach the public and I am happy that we are selling books and getting a radical left point of view out to activists. Does this mean that we are a business? Actually the books and magazine are run as a nonprofit - so all the book sales go back into publishing more books. If you know cheaper ways to publish and distribute, that are just as effective, contact me, because I'd love for us to save some money that we could put into creating more resources that will help give radicals and activists ideological ammunition.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I noticed you're from Vancouver... would these Trotskyists happen to be the Spartacist Youth Club/Trotskyist League of Canada? I had associated with these people in the past, and they too left a sour taste in mouth.

And yeah, there aren't many groups here in Vancouver.

Yeah, I'm from Vancouver. That sounds like them. I'm a Student at UBC. Supposedly student activism is where it is at! I beg to differ. Most of the current efforts seem to be surrounding objections to the Olympics. The time to protest the Olympics seems over to me. Now they're just threatening profits that could go to the city. I don't understand it.

I fail to see what occupying Olympic buildings (supposedly the current plans) is supposed to accomplish.