Sex Pistols - sid vicious

[hazard]

what was the deal with this guy? I mean, I saw an interview and he was wearing a nazi t-shirt and shit.

now, the sex pistols lyrics and politics were clearly left wing and obviously socialist. so I'm not quite too sure why he would wear one.

now, as a political statement AGAINST those interviewing him and those who would view the interview, maybe sid was onto something. or maybe the pigs just took advantage of him ( because thats what they do ) and had him put it on telling him "it'll be punk" just to get people even more against the pistols than they already were. or maybe he really was some kind of fascist, after all. he was sorta ultra violent in any case, despite his heroin addiction.

and here's something else, I heard rotten talking a decade after his death and he alluded to sid's "suicide" as being a marketting gimmick more than anything else. he was pretty upset when he said that too. maybe nancy was murdered by a capitalist henchman so that sid would od on smack. maybe sid and nancy were given some bad crank so that something like this would happen.

I forget sid and nancy, the movie, as i saw it way back when. did it touch on any of these things?

[Deniz Gezmis]

I think he wore the swaztika tshirts to piss people off. He walked through a Jewish area in France wearing once before.

It could just be his way of getting attension..

[Rastafari]

The sex pistols were fucking shit wanna-bes who couldn't carry a tune at all and who acted all political to sell albums. Clean and simple.

[hazard]

so he wasn't really a nazi then. I never thought he was. this was before the little sub culture nazi punk trip thing, though I wonder if these nazi punks became such because of sid?

[Dhul Fiqar]

Sid, as much as I love the guy, did not have an original bone in his body. The Nazi thing was simply the most shocking imagery you could use in Great Britain so short after the war, and it was used from the very first days of punk (when he was growing out of his early-teen glamrock phase).

I've read his autobiography, written by a journalist that met him on several occasions and was friends with all the players on the punk scene. It's amazing, truly amazing, one of the most compelling accounts I've read.

He died around 21 and spent the last few years of his life abusing his body in incredibly ways, but oh my god was that guy hardcore. Every day it was amphetamine, booze, violence, heroin, passing out, throwing up, total filth and fury (btw, the documentary "Filth and the Fury" is also excellent).

Basically, Sid's political stance can be summed up in one word: "Wah?". The years in which he was famous were spent mostly on boarderline overdose doses of heroin and other chemicals, he couldn't even read a newspaper most of the time (and he probably didn't read too good sober anyway).

My favorite interviews with him are from a series done in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. He passes out in mid sentance about ten times before it's called off and when they try again later he again keeps passing out and being slapped to wake him up every thirty seconds or so.

Man, tat guy was such a punk animal! Gotta love someone that mindlessly obscene!!

If you have any specific questions about him I'd be happy to field them :)

--- G.

[hazard]

"filth and fury" is my starting point here. just saw it yesterday. pretty good. and to think that I wouldn't have even rented it if I wasn't so picky about the last of my seventh seven day rentals I had to pick. to get any less than seven ( so I've been told ) costs more.

yeah, sid never struck me as an intellectual. so you saw the scene where rotten blamed the capitalists, indirectly, for the death of sid and its exploitation? what do you make of that?

my favourite clip was when the pistols played for the first time in america when all the rednecks were chucking bottles and shit at them ( remember alanis morisette at woodstock III just prior to limp bizkit sparking the riot in response to it? ) and rotten called them all cowboys. you could tell the pistols were a litle wary of the ultra violent and ultra idiotic americans who were spittin on em and stuff. when rotten raised his fist in the land of hypocrisy to conclude Anarky I was very impressed. fuck those pigs. and then, right after that clip, hey showed sid smashing his bass over that fascists head I was moved almost to tears. very touching.

as for sid, his video for my way is fantastic. when he starts mowing down the capitalist big wigs in the audience, thats great.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Yeah, it's agreat movie!

In fact it doesn't show the entire incident in America, and in fact there was about a half a dozen similar incidents. I don't remember if it was in the movie, but Sid had this shirt with two all-American cowboys with their dicks out of their pants and touching each other. He apparently went to the front of the stage in some redneck bar in Texas andshouted: "Look here, cowboys are bloody faggots, the lot of ya!!!!!"

Basically, most of the Americans they met during their tour hated them. They came to see country or heavy-metal and hated the whole punk thing, they were attacked and beaten and had bottles broken on their heads repeatedly.

Now, one unfortunate thing, when he swung the bass at the asshole in the crowd, he actually missed (don't remember if they talked about this in the movie). He ended up cracking the skull of a guy standing next to the man he was aiming for, and put him in the hospital for a while.

He also once nearly crippled this big-shot American who was involved with the recording industry (I think he owned a music magazine or something), for no reason other than he didn't like him.


Now, he was a lunatic and wouldn't have lived long anyway. However, Johnny was right in a way, that Malcolm McClaren represents the SATAN of capitalism, and he deliberately ruined the lives of a lot of people like Sid to make quick cash.

I truly HATE Malcolm, everything I've ever read by anyone who's ever met him leads me to one conclusion: he is an evil shit and has no soul, just a big dollar sign in his head between his ears.

He made that self-glorifying movie "Great Rock and Roll Swindle", which is interesting mainly because it clearly shows what a slimy little dickhead he is. He concocted the whole shock-horror thing with Vivianne Westwood to get them let out of record deals without actually releasing records.

That way he had them record one album and a couple of singles, but received royalties as if they'd made three albums complete with a bunch of singles. And from different companies, too, because as each one gave up they just pocketed the cash and moved on.

One time he even had them trash the main offices of their record label because they were reluctant to give up on the contract.

In any case, bwah, I haaaate McLaren. He's now started a all-Asian girlband in the style of the Spice Girls and is hoping to pull off some scam with them.

RIP, Sid. You were hardcore, and Malcolm fucked you over :(

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 10:06 am on April 27, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Oh, and btw, Malcolm of course took almost all of the money.

Another great movie about Sid Vicious is "Sid and Nancy" which is not a documentary but the acting is INCREDIBLY realistic. Gary Oldman actually looks and acts 99% like Sid, its amazing.

--- G.

[hazard]

this sort of leads me to a difficult question. as a music lover, I have a tough time figuring how many anti-capitalist bands and music get out here. I mean, the Sex Pistols were used by the industry, but what about the hundreds of other bands? if I was a capitalist IN the industry, I wouldn't sign any of these bands because of the threat and message they represent to the ruling class. it must be that the money draw is worth the risk. or something like that.

[Chedolf]

Sid was a fucking dolt; heedless, clumbsy, thin...the bloke didn't give a hang. The british punk rock phase was clearly a capitalist ploy, but who gives a hang, the pistols and Sid were pumpin out the hits! I concur on the "Sid and Nancy" front, that shit's one of the best films on the Market, Gary is sheer genius. Sid took the ideal politcal stance; fuck this left and right shit...do drugs, fuck *****es and go out with a bang!

RIP SID!

I don't think the caps were too worried about the message these cats were sending out, mostly because the message wasn't a threat to the empire...songs about "anarchy and fuck this and fuck that" sold records not rhetoric. Like all punk, the kids were in it for the image..not because they wanted to head a revolution.

"And so i say, not in their gay ways...oh no, no not me....I did it my way."



(Edited by Chedolf at 12:30 am on April 28, 2003)

[synthesis]

if I was a capitalist IN the industry, I wouldn't sign any of these bands because of the threat and message they represent to the ruling class. it must be that the money draw is worth the risk.

That's one of the primary weaknesses of the capitalist class. They are motivated by materialism, not by idealism - their actions are fueled by personal gain rather than any sense of allegiance to the ideas of capitalism. This is why 'free-market' is such a loaded term, it applies when the government wants to shut down a monopoly but not when the corporations want the government to go to war for them.

There's a great Marx quote about the capitalists selling the socialists the tools of their demise.

[Urban Rubble]

Hey Hazard, don't be so quick to say the Sex Pistols were used by the music industry. If anything they exploited the music industry. Have you ever heard the story of the great rock and roll swindle ? Basically they would get signed to a label, collect their signing bonus, then do such crazy fucked up stuff that the label HAS to drop them. They get the bonus, the label gets fucked. I'm pretty sure they did this like 3 times. That's punk.

I don't think the Sex Pistols ever had any real political affiliations, basically they just wanted to rage, piss people off and play. They fully knew what they were doing as far as marketing themselves and everything, but back then it was all genuine, they were truly punk. Nowadays Johnny Rotten has lost his edge. He trys to trick people into thinking he's still punk by being a complete prick, using racial slurs and basically just showing off. He also likes to talk shit about Sid despite the fact that he's been dead for over 20 years.

Anyway, the Sex Pistols were the eptiome of punk, drunk, drugged out and truly not caring about anything. I mean, Sid had never touched a bass when they asked him to join the band !! Did anyone ever hear the story of Sid (before he was in the band) hurling himself offstage into a group of about 10 angry bikers who proceeded to beat him with chains ?

[hazard]

dhul mentioned a chap named malcolm who was actually responsible for the swindle in question. in the "filth and fury", rotten made it seem like they were also used. I don't doubt that the pistols got what they wanted, but at the same time, to be a wage labourer in capitalism means that you are being used. thats just the way it works.

[Hodgo]

Getting back to the swastika thing. It was used alot when the British punk scene was getting rolling, but was abandoned by most of the punk musicians early on, probably because they realised it was retarded and that there were more subtle, cleverer ways to offend the trendys and convervatives whom they were trying to offend. If you watch the Great Rock N Roll swindle, you'll see that in the informous TV interview where the Pistols caused an outrage by saying "fuck" on air, Siouxsie Sioux was present and wearing a swastika armband. The point wasnt to promote anti-Semitism, but to be offensive for the sake of being offensive (which is probably why they all abandoned it quickly.... well, everyone but Sid).

But yeah, like someone else said, Sid was apolitical, he was more into the image and the "live fast, die young" lifestyle. In his bio, Rotten mentions an incident when the Pistols were touring America, and they were passing through a notoriously skinhead neighborhood. The black cab driver said something along the lines of "I dont like my black ass driving through here", and Sid got up and sat in the passanger seat next to him. He didnt have any racial prejudices, he wore the shirt because he thought it'd be a cool thing to do and because it fit the "rebel" image well.

Rotten was the song-writer and a bloody good one at that. He was the potically motivated one. Sid was all about image, he was a dumbass, a cool dumbass, but still a dumbass.

[Dhul Fiqar]

On the isue of the money, the members of the band ended up with nothing but a bad hangover and legal fees.

The surviving members sued Malcolm to hell and back but I think he lost all the money before anything came of it anyway.

--- G.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Oh, and Hodgo, you made a common mistake. Johnny Rotten did not write most of the songs, he did not know how to write music untill rather late in the game.

The best songs, the ones that made them popular, were all written by Glenn Matlock (allagedly with a bit of help here and there with the words from Johnny and some guitar riffs from Steve Jones).

Ironically he was sacked and Sid hired in his place, who could not play any instrument.

--- G.

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 7:53 pm on May 1, 2003)

[Hodgo]

I meant the actual lyrics. Rotten couldnt play any instrunments but was a great lyracist, Glen thought of some cool riffs, but according to the rest of the band members he hated the direction Rotten wanted to take with the band, he thought the lyrics to "Anarchy in The UK" sabotaged his bass riff and was apparently genuinely offended by "God Save The Queen".

It was the tension between Lydon (Rotten) and Matlok that led to Matlok being kicked out of the band: Matlok wanted the Pistols to be more of a pop band, while Rotten thought Glen was a wanker and a pretty boy.

They still wrote some good songs after Glen left though, I dont know who wrote the music afterwards, Im guessing it was Steve Jones, but Holiday in The Sun was written without Matlok and still retained the same edge that their earlier songs had.

But yeah, I didnt mean to suggest that Rotten wrote the music, just the vast majority of the lyrics, which I consider to be the Sex Pistols main virtue.