Crimethinc Convergence July 20-26 [Archive]

dogfooddi

6th July 2009, 23:16

i'll probably go to that. it sounds like fun. and i always appreciate a chance to rediscover places i just pass by. it's not crimethinc i can't stand but the train kids that want to talk about it. or the kids that live 10 to a house and work part time and get food stamps and ***** about how fucked up things are.

frankly, screw all these lazy hippies dressed as punks. i bust my ass for every cent i make that keeps me doing alright. therefore i refuse to bring those assholes any food. i bartend and they don't give me one single fucking dime when they come in. what do they want me to do, serve them AGAIN?

pittsburgh food not bombs tries to keep it real though. i respect them for not backing down when it comes to giving people free and delicious food.
Activism: Group at odds with PDP over Market Square meals for the homeless

On the afternoon of June 8, the activist group Food Not Bombs delivered free vegetarian meals to the homeless and other Downtown visitors in Market Square -- as it has been doing for years. The only thing that made this weekend's meal notable was what happened the week before.
Volunteers with the Pittsburgh chapter of FNB, a nationwide antiwar/antipoverty group, say the group has been serving free food to people of all income levels every Sunday in the Downtown area for the past 14 years. But on Sun., June 1, a book fair was slated for the Square's stage area at the same time, and a fair organizer told the group that since they had no permit, they had to leave.
"We ignored her, started serving our food, then the police came ... and pushed us all the way to Forbes Avenue. We weren't able to see or read a permit," says James Robinson, an FNB volunteer.
The book fair was sponsored by the Pittsburgh Downtown Partnership, a nonprofit organization representing Downtown businesses and dedicated to making the area more vibrant.
"Our goal has been to program the space in Market Square to make it a positive place," says PDP spokesperson Hollie Plevyak. Plevyak says that FNB's amorphous, grass-roots structure made it hard to negotiate with the group. "Because there was no leader for FNB, there were not many other things the could do but call the authorities."
Plevyak says that, until the June 1 incident, the Partnership had been unaware of Food Not Bombs' activities in Market Square.
"We've given their safety ambassadors and clean-up people food, and we've given them contact information as well," counters [B]Brian Johnson, another FNB volunteer. The only way the PDP could be surprised by his group's activities, he says, is if "they don't talk to their own people."
Plevyak says the Partnership's concern is purely a matter of legal liability. If something harmful happens or refuse is inadequately disposed of while a separate event is being held simultaneously, she says, the group holding the permit can be held responsible. That said, Plevyak adds, the PDP's scheduled activities and permits through Sept. 15 all take place in the morning -- which shouldn't conflict with FNB's early-afternoon lunch service.
"As an organization, we are not going to stop them," says Plevyak. "We are nonprofit and we do not have the authority. I see it being a non-issue."
It wasn't an issue on June 8, anyway. Food Not Bombs set up, fed its guests and dismantled its two-hour feeding operation without a hitch. And for their part, volunteers say they can relocate temporarily for events like a "Berry Festival" slated for June 29.
But it's clear that the June 1 incident sparked misgivings in some quarters. According to the PDP, flyers began appearing Downtown on the morning of June 8. The flyers claim that the Partnership wants to "displace homeless people by kicking them out of Market Square," and wants to re-route Downtown buses to "make black and poor people unseen." No author is identified on the flyers though the PDP suspects that they're the work of Food Not Bombs members -- an allegation FNB denies.
In the past, Food Not Bombs has repeatedly rejected suggestions to join forces with city-sponsored homeless-outreach programs, citing the advantages of a more grassroots approach that avoids the stigma of accepting charity and promoting a sense of community.
"If we came as individuals giving somebody food, is that prohibited?" asks Johnson. "Who is allowed, who isn't, and how do they determine it?"
pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A47828

Black Dagger

7th July 2009, 04:17

Stranger Than Paradise

7th July 2009, 15:35

Terribly sorry but if I can't drink (http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/downloads/pdfs/wasted_indeed.pdf) then its not my party

To be honest I thought that article was very interesting unlike some of their other sutff. In Spain prior to 1936 most Anarchist men and women gave up smoking and alcohol as they realised that it was a method of control.

dogfooddi

7th July 2009, 21:17

well shoot, not everyone's a crimethinc-er but if you're in the area it's bound to be some kind of fun. not everyone attending is going to be balls to the wall about it, especially if they're local. it's something to do. spend time outside away from your computer screen. interact with real people.
as a bartender, i agree with that article for the most part. when i was a waitress, i drank all the time. now that i'm a bartender, i'd rather not drink. occasionally i go to the afterhours, but never for very long.
everyday at work i see the false intimacy that boozed up people think is the forming of a "great friendship". a great friendship that pretty much ultimately leads to their wives getting pissed off at them when they get home at 11 and have to wake up at 5 the next day. or the sleazeballs i have to kick out who are so jacked on pills that they keep spilling their beer that i don't want to clean up.

but you also have to consider that it's like a playground for grownups who need a place to vent about work so they don't take all the trash home. it's like a liminal zone where almost anything goes and that's what's so nice about it. i think the article is saying the real threat is dependency. there's no harm in moderation. you shouldn't keep people from fun times.

The Something

8th July 2009, 08:19

That's what I'm saying. Not everyone that is going to show up is gonna be some snot nosed train rider punk. I mean all walks of life are welcome! Just to go an talk and hang out with somewhat like minded people for free sounds like fun, so I'm trying it out.

Also I really appreciate the forum mod. for posting that, it is annoying when people on a forum of supposed "open mindedness" and generally promoting the spirit of cooperation seem to always be at odds with the concept.

I'm from buffalo and going so if anyone from the New York area is going hit me up and I'll come talk to you!

Agrippa

12th July 2009, 22:22

FYI yall, This thread/forum is for advertising and discussing upcoming events, if you're not going to the event/don't care about it then please stay away - members should be able to advertise/promote events without having to put up with insults/abuse from other members.

There are legitimate criticisms of this event, though, criticisms that should be discussed. It's not a matter of leaving Crimethinc alone if we happen to have no interest in the event or no plans of going. It's a matter of the Crimethinc convergence disrupting working-class communities and sabotaging the local anarchist movement by dragging their hedonistic cop roadshow into a place where people live, instead of the middle of nowhere

More information:
Anonymous Pittsburgh Anarchists: Crimethinc Convergence “an excellent insertion point into our communities for the security apparatus” (http://signalfire.org/?p=362)

I'm a big fan of a lot of the stuff Crimethinc has printed in the past, and all of the outreach and excellent propaganda work they've done. But events that have counter-productive results should be criticized.

bcbm

12th July 2009, 23:00

It's a matter of the Crimethinc convergence disrupting working-class communities and sabotaging the local anarchist movement by dragging their hedonistic cop roadshow into a place where people live, instead of the middle of nowhere

I don't think this is really an accurate description of how crimethinc events function. The one in Milwaukee, at least, wouldn't fit with this. Certainly it brings more heat in and is a good place for infiltrators and provocateurs to start from. But if the cops aren't on your shit anyway, then you probably aren't doing much of anything.

Agrippa

13th July 2009, 00:55

if the cops aren't on your shit anyway, then you probably aren't doing much of anything.

That's a pretty weak excuse, in my opinion, for something that obviously puts local activists at a disadvantage in planning and preparing for G-20 martial law, all for an event that RevLeft users on this thread have only chosen to defend using the word "fun", an event that serves no foreseeable material purpose other than networking, a.k.a. a party. Crimethinc is being very immature and self-centered, putting their own infantile desires before the needs of their alleged comrades.

bcbm

13th July 2009, 03:19

That's a pretty weak excuse, in my opinion, for something that obviously puts local activists at a disadvantage in planning and preparing for G-20 martial law

The Crimethinc convergence last year didn't take place in the same place as the RNC (a much bigger event) and that certainly didn't stop the police from infiltrating, throwing around conspiracy charges, etc, etc, etc. If you're organizing openly as an anarchist, especially around protests where violence will be likely, you're going to attract a whole lot of pig attention and the Crimethinc convergence isn't really going to change shit.

all for an event that RevLeft users on this thread have only chosen to defend using the word "fun", an event that serves no foreseeable material purpose other than networking, a.k.a. a party.

You don't think networking and event partying are an important part of political work? And I imagine there will be plenty of workshops, etc to refine theory and practical skills.

Crimethinc is being very immature and self-centered, putting their own infantile desires before the needs of their alleged comrades.

Wasn't the conference announced before the G20?

dogfooddi

14th July 2009, 00:05

i was looking at their blogsite again. it seems they have absolutely ZERO idea where they are going to all be sleeping and won't "disclose" the convergence center location yet. as in whiskey tango foxtrot?
these guys have their heads so far up their asses i can't believe it. they're having heart attacks over an "urban hunting" workshop meanwhile they consider themselves "ex-workers" while the rest of the world is busting their asses. it seems like they put more weight on being self-righteous and prioritizing not eating meat over the human condition.
we've all been to fucking festivals. we know in the campground there's always a no drugs/booze policy but like that is going to stick anyway. these guys are going to be smoking sinaloan weed full of pesticides and doing colombian blow and shooting crystal cooked by babyraping bikers.
and frankly, reading the exclusionary policies on sexual assault? did a fifteen year old boy write this?

Because this convergence should be a safe space for everyone, people who violate these policies may be asked to leave. In cases of breach of consent, both sexual and security, we will 1) trust the survivor and 2) abide by the survivor’s wishes. For example, if you gave information to the police about someone without their permission and they don’t want you in this space, we will ask you to leave; likewise, if you have sexually assaulted someone and they are comfortable with you being here as long as you participate in a mediated discussion about their boundaries during this event, we will ask you to do so, or else to leave. This is not a matter of permanently excluding -Y΄undesirables‘ from the anarchist movement, but simply of making things work in a limited space for a limited time. People can be asked to leave the convergence without being exiled from our communities.

their proposition to resolving rape is to have to two parties sit down and have mediators present. they also say, people who give someone else's info to the police is going to be expelled. really? we all know calling the cops on any kind of assault is a hassle and just as bad an experience. but this could mean calling the cops and saying you were sexually or otherwise assaulted could get you expelled from the convergence.............am i interpreting correctly?

If anything, this simply provides an incentive for individuals and communities to work out their conflicts in advance of events like this, so we won’t all have to deal with unresolved conflicts here.
how does this sentence apply to the situation? nobody should let these people deal with ANYTHING!

dogfooddi

14th July 2009, 00:11

in short, terribly disorganized and unrealistically conceptualized.

bcbm

14th July 2009, 01:06

these guys are going to be smoking sinaloan weed full of pesticides and doing colombian blow and shooting crystal cooked by babyraping bikers.

In years past the sober space rule has been more or less kept by everyone. Those who wanted to drink or whatever left the area.

their proposition to resolving rape is to have to two parties sit down and have mediators present.

No, their proposition for it is to abide by the survivor's wishes.

in short, terribly disorganized and unrealistically conceptualized.

Its been working pretty well for three or four years now.

dogfooddi

14th July 2009, 01:11

well can you tell exactly what the accomodations are from the site?

and if they do abide by "survivor's" wishes maybe they ought to try a little something most writers use called "revision"

dogfooddi

14th July 2009, 01:14

maybe i'm blending security and sexual, but it should be up to the victim if they want to report it or not, especially if they are local.

bcbm

14th July 2009, 01:17

well can you tell exactly what the accomodations are from the site?

No, but they clearly list the redirect point.

and if they do abide by "survivor's" wishes maybe they ought to try a little something most writers use called "revision"

Why is survivor in quotes? And the passage you quoted makes perfect sense.

Agrippa

14th July 2009, 06:10

The Crimethinc convergence last year didn't take place in the same place as the RNC (a much bigger event) and that certainly didn't stop the police from infiltrating, throwing around conspiracy charges, etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't mean we need to make their jobs easier. Crimethinc is the Mecca for pig infiltration.

If you're organizing openly as an anarchist, especially around protests where violence will be likely, you're going to attract a whole lot of pig attention and the Crimethinc convergence isn't really going to change shit.

The locals feel differently and you should respect their perspective given that this convergence is not necessary and does not put us at a tactical or strategic advantage in any way and only exists for silly, middle-class hipster fun.

You don't think networking and event partying are an important part of political work?

Yes, I do, but they're a very minor part. A part that tends to be over-emphasized by anarcho-hipsters in the US for obvious reasons. Definitely not a part that we should sacrifice our basic security for.

And I imagine there will be plenty of workshops, etc to refine theory and practical skills.

The workshops are always a pretense for the decadence. In my experience, even at more serious anarchist convergences, not even half the people who were there the first day show up on the workshops for the second day, because they're all hung over from partying.

Also, at this point, we need to move beyond workshops. The skills we need to win a revolution require more practice and instruction than can be given at an annual workshop. These events, rather than encouraging people to focus on, intervene in, and build up the organs of class-war within their community, encourages them to forget about their community into a nebulous (and very unsecure) ephemeral network of strangers who honestly have little to offer in terms of long-term political solidarity for genuinely useful local struggles.

Wasn't the conference announced before the G20?

Yes but it was a bad idea before the G-20, and the G-20 was the straw that broke the camel's back. They should have used the G-20 as a chance to do the right thing and cancel the event, instead of opportunistically exploiting it by trying to channel anti-G-20 resistance sentiment into publicity for the convergence, by claiming the convergence is some essential part of anti-G-20 work when it actually detracts from it.

redasheville

14th July 2009, 18:04

Is Crimethinc still a bad hippy mosh metal record label?

The Something

14th July 2009, 23:16

Is Crimethinc still a bad hippy mosh metal record label?

"That's what she said."

And no, it's not.

Malakangga

19th July 2009, 06:42

Black Dagger, salute :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

Bad Grrrl Agro

19th July 2009, 07:55

A couple years ago I couldn't picture myself saying this, but I wish I could go. I still can't make it anyways.

The Something

23rd July 2009, 04:37

I take back what I said. Yes it is a bunch of smelly hippies being selfish and not really getting much done. I went, I was appalled, I was disappointed and I left. Fuck that selfish hippie bullshit.

You cannot change society if you are so far removed from it that you become irrelevant to even leftists.

Why can I not find anyone that wants to get things done and hates discussing about theory after theory and yet still takes showers and has a job? WHY?!?!?!?

ComradeOm

23rd July 2009, 13:24

Why can I not find anyone that wants to get things done and hates discussing about theory after theory and yet still takes showers and has a job? WHY?!?!?!?The obvious answer being that the absence of theory, and corresponding emphasis on action for the sake of action, lends itself to distractions and diffuse/ineffective campaigns

I suppose we should be thankful that Crimethinc are basically harmless hippies. A few generations ago they'd probably be blowing themselves up with homemade bombs

The Ungovernable Farce

23rd July 2009, 16:30

Why can I not find anyone that wants to get things done and hates discussing about theory after theory and yet still takes showers and has a job? WHY?!?!?!?
Awww. There's people like that out there somewhere, I promise.

SoupIsGoodFood

23rd July 2009, 23:21

So is a crimethinc convergence really as smelly as I'm assuming it is? I mean, the majority of them don't actually buy into the whole "Bathing Yourself Is Support of Capitalism" bullshit do they?

The Something

23rd July 2009, 23:35

So is a crimethinc convergence really as smelly as I'm assuming it is? I mean, the majority of them don't actually buy into the whole "Bathing Yourself Is Support of Capitalism" bullshit do they?

I was there for the first day. Yes just about 98%of them have dreads and smell like shit. I was very disappointed to find this out(my nose was even more dismayed). Also just a quick little fact on top of the fact that they don't shower the women don't shave.... I'm talking like their armpits and legs were hairier than mine.

It's seriously really just not even the fact that it is gross but on a health concern level. I saw people that just had straight up spots of dirt on their body and they didn't even care. The whole not using deodorant thing is whatever(personally to me is gross), but when you start to ignore the fact that have literal dirt on your body...... it just confounds me.

Edit:Also half of the workshops they proposed were about sex and shit. The whole thing is a sham and a shame to anarchists everywhere. Luckily I left right away after seeing it for what it was. I feel sorry for the poor kids they indoctrinate with their bullshit.

Big Red

24th July 2009, 23:50

This is where the action is...http://resistg20.org/sites/resistg20.org/files/zines/g20_zine.pdf or

Information, and news for the upcoming G20 meeting in Pittsburgh
www.ResistG20.org
http://www.organizepittsburgh.org/
http://www.infoshop.org/
http://www.anarchistnews.org/

ellipsis

3rd August 2009, 17:22

wow so much hate filled elitism and general snobbery. Omg they had Dirt on them! I have dirt on me right now, from manual labor. I guess I should go buy some soap and buy buy buy everything to make me conform to capitalist hetero normativity so my comrade won't look down on me!
How can you hope to create class-less society when you think you're better than people who should be your comrades? Who needs police infiltration when we turn ourselves against eachother?

ComradeOm

3rd August 2009, 18:10

ellipsis

3rd August 2009, 21:25

So your worth is greater than theirs and mine because you take more showers? Despite the fact that you are over using water resources and adding lots of chemicals into the water table? And paying our overlords for this? Wow I guess I am worthless since I am a "smelly white kid". All hail our hygenic overlords! When the revolution happens I hope am not labelled a counter-revolutionary for my lack of bathing and sumarily executed. Please spare me, thou holiest of holy bathed-one.
Is this over the top? Maybe but judgment is a slippery slope.
This is all very off topic for this thread, I will have to start another titled "keyboard comrade elitism"

ComradeOm

3rd August 2009, 21:40

So your worth is greater than theirs and mine because you take more showers?No, its because anyone who believes that not showering, or indeed the reverse, is a revolutionary virtue is an imbecile. Simple as

nuisance

3rd August 2009, 22:24

No, its because anyone who believes that not showering, or indeed the reverse, is a revolutionary virtue is an imbecile. Simple as
:rolleyes:
Crimethinc don't think that not showering and not using deodrant is revolutionary. Atleast understand the point they're making before critiquing.

ComradeOm

3rd August 2009, 22:29

:rolleyes:
Crimethinc don't think that not showering and not using deodrant is revolutionary. Atleast understand the point they're making before critiquing.Really? (http://libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc)

nuisance

3rd August 2009, 22:39

Really? (http://libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc)

Have you actually read that article?

So try to be a little more open minded when it comes to the "crusties." Perhaps they just smell bad to you because you've never gotten a chance to discover what a real human being smells like. Perhaps there might be something worthwhile about being "unwashed" in the conventional sense that you haven't noticed before. The moral of this story is the moral of all anarchist stories: accept only the rules and values which make sense to you and really are in your best interest. Figure out what's right for you and don't let anybody tell you different"”but also, make an effort to understand where others are coming from, and evaluate their actions by your own standards, not according to some standardized norm.

Nothing in the piece says that there's anything revolutionary about not washing, but instead you should be more considerate to those that don't because they may do it for something they consider is worthwhile, and be sceptical about the mainstream. Just because Crimethinc seem to be endorsing this, doesn't mean that they deem it as revolutionary- the same is for their position on dumpster diving.

ellipsis

4th August 2009, 01:15

Seriously, as a "crustie" and someone who has hung out with a lot of radical smelly-type folk, I have never heard anybody claims that there is anything "revolutionary" (whatever that means) about rejecting consumer culture's idea of hygiene. Anti-capitalist, maybe but never revolutionary, in the sense that it brings about revolution.

dogfooddi

4th August 2009, 01:33

apparently on the last day it got broken up by some kids busting into their building and being assholes. of course, crimethincers disbanded and did not call the cops.
this is what i heard from some girls who came into the bar i work at. when i asked them if either of them had a tampon, they said "no those are bad for you we use mooncups." then i overheard them talking as they chainsmoked about doing MDMA and being recklessly polyamorous.
i just wanted a tampon. but i had to laugh, really.

ComradeOm

4th August 2009, 12:39

Just because Crimethinc seem to be endorsing this, doesn't mean that they deem it as revolutionary- the same is for their position on dumpster diving.Which is exactly the problem. Crimethinc elevates such irrelevant choices as dumpster diving, public sex, not washing, and teetotalism into some form of virtuous lifestyle in which the individual's supposed disconnection from capitalism is somehow construed as revolutionary in itself. Its a stunningly egotistical, and often very stupid*, view of the world

All of which is borne out by the observation that this 'convergence' was in fact populated by "smelly hippies", to quote our eyewitness. We're not talking about a revolutionary movement here, or one that aspires to be revolutionary, but a group of disaffected individuals who think they can bring about change by not buying deodorant

*And yes, anyone who believes that there is a capitalist conspiracy to sell deodorant because otherwise people would "stop wearing pantyhose or eating meat" (the twin foundations of the capitalist mode of production) is stupid. There's no way to get around that

nuisance

4th August 2009, 12:52

Which is exactly the problem. Crimethinc elevates such irrelevant choices as dumpster diving, public sex, not washing, and teetotalism into some form of virtuous lifestyle in which the individual's supposed disconnection from capitalism is somehow construed as revolutionary in itself. Its a stunningly egotistical, and often very stupid*, view of the world
No, it isn't. This point was disproved in my previous post. Do you have any evidence for your assertions, other than articles that state that they do not believe these to be revolutionary principles, but instead individual lifestylist ones.

All of which is borne out by the observation that this 'convergence' was in fact populated by "smelly hippies", to quote our eyewitness. We're not talking about a revolutionary movement here, or one that aspires to be revolutionary, but a group of disaffected individuals who think they can bring about change by not buying deodorant
So, 'smelly hippies' cannot take part in revolutionary activity because of certain lifestyle choices that they don't not claim are revolutionary. You really need to get your head around this before you can take this discussion any further. That said, you're drifting from the point- which is Crimethinc does not believe not washing etc are revolutionary, not whether Crimethinc is or isn't revolutionary because I don't care enough about the group to have that talk.

*And yes, anyone who believes that there is a capitalist conspiracy to sell deodorant because otherwise people would "stop wearing pantyhose or eating meat" (the twin foundations of the capitalist mode of production) is stupid. There's no way to get around that
That isn't up for contention and is irrelevant to the topic. I'm no real fan of Crimethinc, but you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

ComradeOm

4th August 2009, 13:22

No, it isn't. This point was disproved in my previous post. Do you have any evidence for your assertions, other than articles that state that they do not believe these to be revolutionary principles, but instead individual lifestylist onesHave you ever read any Crimethinc works? You should, they're very entertaining. Here's (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/days/invitation.php) their conception of a revolutionary in a nutshell:

WANTED: Creative, independent men and women, tired of being exhausted by the trivial details of modern survival, fed up with being bored by modern entertainment, no longer confused by the distractions of the mass media... not content with limiting their freedom, their lives, to their "free time." People who prefer idealism to realism, and reality to ideology. To become full-time revolutionaries. NOT armchair revolutionaries, not lunch break revolutionaries, not leisure-time revolutionaries. And not "professional" revolutionaries: rather than making a business out of "revolution.," they must make revolution their business. Men and women who will not allow their efforts to win back their freedom to become just another job, who are ready to live according to their desires around the clock

Revolutionaries are those who "live according to their desires", that is the most succinct summary of Crimethinc's underlying philosophy. Their 'revolution' is nothing more than "an immediate revolution in our daily lives", achieved by "altering the contents of our own lives in a revolutionary manner, rather than direct our struggle towards world-historical changes". Its individualist bullshit and its a common theme throughout their work. Deodorant is sold by capitalists, ergo not using deodorant is an anti-capitalist position. Well done comrade, that's a revolutionary change in your life!

Don't wait for permission, for some far-off "world revolution," for later "when you have more time." Demand joy, danger, passion in your life today!

That isn't up for contention and is irrelevant to the topic. I'm no real fan of Crimethinc, but you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.Yet its the crux of this entire discussion. That pamphlet expressly lists eight reasons why not using deodorant is anti-capitalist. It goes on to insist that cleanliness is a trademark of "hierarchical society" and that it reinforces "old Christian superstitions". Its dressing up not washing, in the same manner Crimethinc did with alcohol, as an anti-capitalist activity. Which is where it once again feeds into the individualist lifestylism and the pretence that this is a valid 'leftist' current

nuisance

4th August 2009, 13:48

Have you ever read any Crimethinc works? You should, they're very entertaining.
Yes, I have read abit of Crimethincs stuff and have in my possession a few of the books they've produced etc, have you actually read any yourself?

Here's (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/days/invitation.php) their conception of a revolutionary in a nutshell:

WANTED: Creative, independent men and women, tired of being exhausted by the trivial details of modern survival, fed up with being bored by modern entertainment, no longer confused by the distractions of the mass media... not content with limiting their freedom, their lives, to their "free time." People who prefer idealism to realism, and reality to ideology. To become full-time revolutionaries. NOT armchair revolutionaries, not lunch break revolutionaries, not leisure-time revolutionaries. And not "professional" revolutionaries: rather than making a business out of "revolution.," they must make revolution their business. Men and women who will not allow their efforts to win back their freedom to become just another job, who are ready to live according to their desires around the clock
Nice quote, but Question: where does it mention that lifestyle habits are in itself a revolutionary activity? Answer: It doesn't. What's clearing arguing is that we need to reject activism (part time revolutionary) and live it (full time revolutionary). This idea is prominent in insurrectionist circles, it does not involve portraying abstaining from washing and various other personal activities as being revolutionary- which is the topic of conversation.

Revolutionaries are those who "live according to their desires", that is the most succinct summary of Crimethinc's underlying philosophy. Their 'revolution' is nothing more than "an immediate revolution in our daily lives", achieved by "altering the contents of our own lives in a revolutionary manner, rather than direct our struggle towards world-historical changes". Its individualist bullshit and its a common theme throughout their work. Deodorant is sold by capitalists, ergo not using deodorant is an anti-capitalist position. Well done comrade, that's a revolutionary change in your life!
Yes, Crimethinc are lifestylists that place emphasis on the individual- that hasn't be denied and is clearly quite evident. Again, however, I find your answer somewhat lacking in actual evidence in regard to the lack of personal hyigene being revolutionary- this has nothing to do with 'desires' as you claim. It is a concious boycott of a part of capitalist society they object to, and I think we can all agree that boycott in this fashion is not revolutionary- and Crimethincers would agree.
"altering the contents of our own lives in a revolutionary manner, rather than direct our struggle towards world-historical changes"
Yes, that's the purpose in making radical changes in your own life- revolutionary meaning drastic change after all. Could you reference this quote so that it can be put into actual context?

Don't wait for permission, for some far-off "world revolution," for later "when you have more time." Demand joy, danger, passion in your life today!
You're straying from the point again. What has this got to do them saying not washing is revolutionary? Stay on topic please.

Yet its the crux of this entire discussion. That pamphlet expressly lists eight reasons why not using deodorant is anti-capitalist. It goes on to insist that cleanliness is a trademark of "hierarchical society" and that it reinforces "old Christian superstitions". Its dressing up not washing, in the same manner Crimethinc did with alcohol, as an anti-capitalist activity. Which is where it once again feeds into the individualist lifestylism and the pretence that this is a valid 'leftist' current
No, it's not the crux of anything, only your misunderstanding of Crimethinc and use of language. 'Anti-capitalist' does not necessiate 'revolutionary'. Meaning you can have anti-capitalist habits i.e. not paying for food, which aren't revolutionary.
Yes, it is dressing up not washing, but it is not saying it is a revolutionary activity.

yuon

4th August 2009, 14:34

So far as it goes, I think that Edelweiss Pirate is making a shit load of sense. The post that ComradeOm posted (two up as I write this) also makes sense, except that, not, I think, in the manner in which they meant.

Don't wait for permission, for some far-off "world revolution," for later "when you have more time." Demand joy, danger, passion in your life today!
Indeed. Maybe, maybe, I'm a lifestylist and I didn't know it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to reject capitalism, as much as possible, in one's individual life. After all, what is a group, but a collection of individuals?

ComradeOm

4th August 2009, 14:54

Nice quote, but Question: where does it mention that lifestyle habits are in itself a revolutionary activity? Answer: It doesn't. What's clearing arguing is that we need to reject activism (part time revolutionary) and live it (full time revolutionary). This idea is prominent in insurrectionist circles, it does not involve portraying abstaining from washing and various other personal activities as being revolutionary- which is the topic of conversationHow about this one then? From here (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/harbinger/infighting.php)

Revolution, then, is not a single moment, but a way of living: anarchy and hierarchy always coexist in varying proportions, and the important question is simply which you foster in your own life"

I was actually wrong in the above post, this is the quote that sums up Crimethinc. Anarchy as a lifestyle choices. Funny, no?

Yes, Crimethinc are lifestylists that place emphasis on the individual- that hasn't be denied and is clearly quite evident. Again, however, I find your answer somewhat lacking in actual evidence in regard to the lack of personal hyigene being revolutionaryNeed I really join the dots again? Crimethinc's position is that revolution, far from being something so trivial as the mass transformation of society's productive forces, is a fundamentally individual affair (as you note) in which being 'revolutionary' is really little more than changing your own lifestyle. It is about "chasing our dreams, breaking our old patterns, embracing what we love..., daydreaming, questioning, acting outside the boundaries of routine and regularity" - ie, stepping outside mainstream society

This is the essence of Crimethinc - that mere lifestyle changes are revolutionary in themselves. Not eating meat, not working, not drinking, not showering (yes); all these are part of a ideology that seeks to 'drop out' of capitalist society. They are solely concerned with the "revolution in our everyday lives". Hence actually buying deodorant or the like does not really factor into their anti-consumerist agenda. The latter, before you start, being something that they conflate with revolutionary change (see above and below)

It is a concious boycott of a part of capitalist society they object to, and I think we can all agree that boycott in this fashion is not revolutionary- and Crimethincers would agreeYou have of course heard of 'freeganism'? Or as Crimethinc put it here (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/insidefront/veganism.php):

"If we want to change the conditions that have resulted in the widespread destruction and exploitation that characterize our world, we must work towards a complete overhauling of our economy—we must somehow escape from the vicious cycle of capitalism

...

I know that as long as I participate in the mainstream economy, whether I am buying vegan or non-vegan products, I am supporting the corporations which represent world capitalism. So rather than just buying animal-friendly products, I try to purchase as few products as possible"

So we escape from capitalism (while affecting a transformation of it!) though anti-consumerism. This of course feeds into the above about simply abandoning capitalist lifestyles and the way that it is perceived as revolutionary. Clearly not purchasing, ie not engaging in capitalism, is seen by many lifestylists as a welcome and revolutionary activity. Again, lifestylism as a revolutionary alternative

"altering the contents of our own lives in a revolutionary manner, rather than direct our struggle towards world-historical changes"
Yes, that's the purpose in making radical changes in your own life- revolutionary meaning drastic change after all. Could you reference this quote so that it can be put into actual context?No, you've misconstrued the meaning of the piece. It is a direct repudiation of actually organising for a society-wide revolution (or similar collective variants) in favour of simply adopting a new lifestyle that is revolutionary in itself

Source is here (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/days/alive.php). Full passage as follows. Like I said, its very entertaining to read

"Accordingly, our revolution must be an immediate revolution in our daily lives; anything else is not a revolution but a demand that once again people do what they do not want to do and hope that this time, somehow, the compensation will be enough. Those who assume, often unconsciously, that it is impossible to achieve their own desires—and thus, that it is futile to fight for themselves—often end up fighting for an ideal or cause instead. But it is still possible to fight for ourselves, or at least the experiment must be worth a try; so it is crucial that we seek change not in the name of some doctrine or grand cause, but on behalf of ourselves, so that we will be able to live more meaningful lives. Similarly we must seek first and foremost to alter the contents of our own lives in a revolutionary manner, rather than direct our struggle towards world-historical changes which we will not live to witness. In this way we will avoid the feelings of worthlessness and alienation that result from believing that it is necessary to "sacrifice oneself for the cause," and instead live to experience the fruits of our labors. . . in our labors themselves"

The Ungovernable Farce

4th August 2009, 15:06

There is a lot wrong with CrimethInc, but they do occasionally get it spot on. This bit sums up a lot of Om's posts:

Face it, your politics are boring as fuck. You know it's true. Otherwise, why does everyone cringe when you say the word?... Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation?
Perhaps, after years of struggling to educate them about their victimhood, you have come to blame them for their condition. They must want to be ground under the heel of capitalist imperialism; otherwise, why do they show no interest in your political causes? Why haven't they joined you yet in chaining yourself to mahogany furniture, chanting slogans at carefully planned and orchestrated protests, and frequenting anarchist bookshops? Why haven't they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?
The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings—are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that your post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining systems of control. They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and endless quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the world they experience from day to day. They know that no matter who is in office, what laws are on the books, what "ism"s the intellectuals march under, the content of their lives will remain the same. They—we—know that our boredom is proof that these "politics" are not the key to any real transformation of life. For our lives are boring enough already!
Lifestylism is useless, but it's no better or worse than leftism.

ellipsis

4th August 2009, 21:11

ComradeOm- Let's assume that members of CrimeThinc do think that these behaviors are "revolutionary." This does not mean that all people who are freegans or choose to withdraw themselves from capitalism think this way. I don't believe that you have made this claim but let's not let CrimeThinc represent this lifestyle as a whole. My questions for you:

1) What makes something "revolutionary?"
2) How are the behaviors described in this thread NOT revolutionary? Support your assertions with evidence or reasoning.
3) What is wrong with not bathing/freeganism/not drinking?

ComradeOm

5th August 2009, 12:50

Lifestylism is useless, but it's no better or worse than leftism.Which pretty much sums up the idiocy of the post-left. The idea that anyone can compare centuries of revolutionary struggle and labour organisation with a few hippies who refuse to wash... well that says it all. It displays both your disconnection from the working class* and ignorance of history. Come back to me when lifestylists and post-leftists have accomplished a fraction of what the labour movement has achieved over the last two centuries. Unless of course you reject the very act of organising amongst the workers :rolleyes:

(Although the idea that Marxist parties are not particularly popular because the workers are all "frequenting anarchist bookshops" was funny. As I've said, Crimethinc is always good for a laugh)

*Yeah... so marches, slogans, placards are an irrelevancy? Clearly the author has never been on strike. Then again I doubt he's ever worked a day in his life

Let's assume that members of CrimeThinc do think that these behaviors are "revolutionary." This does not mean that all people who are freegans or choose to withdraw themselves from capitalism think this way. I don't believe that you have made this claim but let's not let CrimeThinc represent this lifestyle as a wholeThere was a great passage from one of those Crimethinc articles that strongly echoed Lenin's conception of democratic centralism but unfortunately I can't find it. Regardless, we are discussing (or at least were at one point) the Crimethinc Convergence and the unhygienic state of its participants. The mere fact that this connection exists, ie that the convergence members were filthy, is evidence enough that the policies advocated by various Crimethinc publications are being followed to some degree

What makes something "revolutionary?"Well that depends entirely on your conception of revolution. To Crimethinc revolution is first and foremost a matter of personal lifestyle. Changing that, by withdrawing from capitalism or generally abandoning the mainstream, is therefore a revolutionary act in itself

This approach entails a specific rejection of the "revolution" as understood by virtually all socialists and anarchists. That is, a "world-historical" event/process, to quote Crimethinc, that fundamentally transforms society as a whole. It is by definition, in the last century or so anyway, a mass struggle and it is generally accepted that this must be waged on a class scale. Again, fundamentally different conception to that shared by Crimethinc and many other post-left outfits

Given the above, a revolutionary act or revolutionary role is something that furthers the process of revolution. Agitation, demonstration, organisation on a class basis, these are all common revolutionary acts today. Conversely refusing to eat meat or wash is entirely a personal preference that has no impact beyond your own lifestyle. It is absolutely worthless with regards mass struggle or the "world-historical" revolution

2) How are the behaviors described in this thread NOT revolutionary? Support your assertions with evidence or reasoning.In the first place, the burden of proof lies on you to prove the positive. If it cannot be argued that not washing is in some way revolutionary then there is absolutely no reason to suggest that it actually is. Its therefore unnecessary to prove the negative

In any case, I think I've dealt with this enough above. Not washing is a lifestyle choice and nothing more. Step outside the ridiculously individualistic Crimethinc criteria and you'll see that it means absolutely nothing to the far broader and richer revolutionary tradition

3) What is wrong with not bathing/freeganism/not drinking? Nothing particular, as long as you recognise that it is purely an individualistic lifestyle choice. These are simply not revolutionary gestures in any way shape or form. But then we've already established that Crimethinc does not feel the same way

Personally of course I don't agree with any of them but then that is my own particular preferences. I just don't see the attraction of that hippy-ish subculture

ellipsis

5th August 2009, 17:54

Well Debated comrade. I agree with most of your point except your claim that veganism and not washing have no impact beyond oneself. This is simply not true. Meat pruduction beyond what it does to animals both uses more resources and creates more pollution than non-meat food production. A vegan diet therefor does
have a greater impact, maybe not in creating revolution but meaningful impact. Not using deodorant or not being overily hygenic reduces both water consumption and pollution.

Would you say that biking and not driving has no greater impact?
Do you consider boycotts to be effective?

Freeganism/non-consumerism is not the answer but definately better than continuing to give your money to our capitalist overlords, fill our landfills and poison the air and water.

The Something

5th August 2009, 22:15

Not using deodorant or not being overily hygenic reduces both water consumption and pollution.

Once again I was there... these people did not just have really bad "B.O." they had literal dirt on their body, not from doing hard work just being unhealthily unhygienic. I mean walking around barefoot smelling like shit will NOT attract any sort of positive acceptance by almost 90% of the population of America and isn't the point to try and change the accepted ideas of other people and try to turn them on to something different? Something people find approachable? Yet these people are so far removed from modern society as a whole they can't change anything.

Again it would be one thing if it was only even half of the people there that did it, but it wasn't. 98% of them all smelled, had dreadlocks and many walked barefoot in a building and outside that you could most likely end up with a very nasty foot infection at best or worms at worst. They too had become conformers almost dogmatic in their beliefs. Ironic.

StalinFanboy

5th August 2009, 22:32

SoupIsGoodFood

6th August 2009, 09:05

Again it would be one thing if it was only even half of the people their that did it, but it wasn't 98% of them all smelled, had dreadlocks and many walked barefoot in a building and outside that you could most likely end up with a very nasty foot infection at best or worms at worst. They too had become conformers almost dogmatic in their beliefs. Ironic.

Told.

ComradeOm

6th August 2009, 17:00

Would you say that biking and not driving has no greater impact?On an individual scale, of course not. And that's regards environmentalism; certainly it has no effect on helping to create the conditions for a proletarian revolution. Ditto for meat eating and washing. You might do these to improve (*cough*) the quality of your own life but on the wider scale they are entirely inconsequential

Do you consider boycotts to be effective?I'll not write off any tactic and, while I have my doubts about their broader use, boycotts can possibly be constructive in specific circumstances. However I'm referring here to the mass boycott that is one part of a specific campaign. Simply withdrawing from capitalism on an individual basis is absolutely useless. Numerically you're completely insignificant and, as I note below, its not viable on a mass scale

Freeganism/non-consumerism is not the answer but definately better than continuing to give your money to our capitalist overlords, fill our landfills and poison the air and water.Not really. We live in a capitalist society and work in a capitalist economy. The position of socialists is to transform this society, not simply withdraw from it

It also has to be noted that this 'freeganism' is an inherently parasitical practice. Its not a viable economic model and its not possible for a mass movement to adopt it. People who practice 'dumpster diving' haven't really withdrawn from capitalism... they've just retreated to the edges where they can live off those those still working and producing

The Ungovernable Farce

6th August 2009, 18:01

1) What makes something "revolutionary?"
I like Solidarity's definition:

Meaningful action, for revolutionaries, is whatever increases the confidence, the autonomy, the initiative, the participation, the solidarity, the equalitarian tendencies and the self-activity of the masses and whatever assists in their demystification. Sterile and harmful action is whatever reinforces the passivity of the masses, their apathy, their cynicism, their differentiation through hierarchy, their alienation, their reliance on others to do things for them and the degree to which they can therefore be manipulated by others - even by those allegedly acting on their behalf.
So, I'd consider deliberately not washing as a political act to fall into the sterile and harmful category, because it'd increase your differentiation and alienation from other, cleaner, people. On the other hand, boring hierarchical politics as championed by Comrade Om and the like also fall into the sterile and harmful box, not least because of the apathy they induce.

Which pretty much sums up the idiocy of the post-left.
I'm not a post-left anarchist. The post-left crowd would doubtlessly consider me a leftist, and I consider their politics idiotic (which isn't to say that some of them aren't nice, dedicated people, of course).

The idea that anyone can compare centuries of revolutionary struggle and labour organisation with a few hippies who refuse to wash... well that says it all.
Actually, having thought it over, lifestylists are probably less harmful than leftists. In any genuine revolutionary situation, I'd expect CrimethInc and their like to be completely sidelined; the leftist groups, on the other hand, would probably still be playing their traditional role as the last defenders of capital. And in the meantime, lifestylism is useless but fun, but pious lefties are useless and boring.

Come back to me when lifestylists and post-leftists have accomplished a fraction of what the labour movement has achieved over the last two centuries.
I don't claim lifestylists and post-leftists are going to accomplish anything, that's why I called them useless. On the other hand, you don't seem to have overthrown capitalism yet either. You've won reforms (which are nice, but obviously you don't think that's what we're fighting for, otherwise you'd be a reformist), which can be taken away at any moment, and occasionally managed to install new factions of the bourgeoisie in power. Well done.

Unless of course you reject the very act of organising amongst the workers
Of course not.

(Although the idea that Marxist parties are not particularly popular because the workers are all "frequenting anarchist bookshops" was funny. As I've said, Crimethinc is always good for a laugh)
Lol, learn to read. Frequenting anarchist bookshops was mentioned as something that the workers aren't doing. That was from a piece which is harshly critical of the anarchist movement, including the anarchist-communist tradition I identify with. I disagree with their general perspective, but I still think that some of their points are worthwhile. And, as I've just demonstrated, that particular extract is excellent for winding up dull lefties like yourself.

*Yeah... so marches, slogans, placards are an irrelevancy? Clearly the author has never been on strike. Then again I doubt he's ever worked a day in his life
I like how you magically know it's a he, because obviously women can't write. And yes, it's probable that the author has never been on strike. We are living through a historic period of very low working-class militancy (although it does seem to be improving this year), thanks to the defeat of organised workers in the Thatcher/Reagan years. It might be worth looking at why our movement was so heavily defeated, and how we can respond to these new conditions. But that would mean acknowledging that the mighty labour movement isn't actually perfect, and can fail at things.

Given the above, a revolutionary act or revolutionary role is something that furthers the process of revolution. Agitation, demonstration, organisation on a class basis, these are all common revolutionary acts today.
I personally don't say demonstrating as any more inherently revolutionary than not eating meat. It may have more revolutionary potential, but that doesn't mean that your average liberal demo threatens capitalism any more than your average Crimethinc party. And is probably less fun.

ComradeOm

6th August 2009, 18:51

On the other hand, boring hierarchical politics as championed by Comrade Om and the like also fall into the sterile and harmful box, not least because of the apathy they induceDon't ascribe to others your own inability to think in political terms or engage in meaningful action. The idea that workers, ordinary people off the street, cannot relate to political action or simply find it "boring as fuck" perfectly illustrates the incredibly shallow nature of both yourself and Crimethinc. Hey, who cares about economic realities, who gives a fuck about revolutionary conciousness, get rid of that cultural hegemony nonsense... people aren't flocking to Marxist/anarchist groups because their language is boring! Of course, how simple

And how incredibly stupid. You've got all the answers, I'm sure of that. But as I said, come back to me when you have even a fraction of organised labour's accomplishments to your name. You sneer at 'the left' and those who comprise it yet you've nothing to show for your own 'creed' save a gathering of unwashed hippies and a new, sexier, set of buzzwords and jargon

And don't pretend to be an anarcho-communist or anything of the like. I have plenty of respect for many anarchists, and particularly within the AF, but you are a perfect example of the jokers that they often let in. Idiots like yourself, who can seriously compare two centuries of agitation and labour struggles with not washing, give anarchism a bad name. Not that you'll particularly care about something said by a 'boring statist' but then that's a result of having your head up your own arse

On the other hand, you don't seem to have overthrown capitalism yet either. You've won reforms (which are nice, but obviously you don't think that's what we're fighting for, otherwise you'd be a reformist), which can be taken away at any moment, and occasionally managed to install new factions of the bourgeoisie in power. Well doneYou see, this is what I'm talking about. "Leftist groups" now comprise the "last defenders of capital" and their reforms count for nothing because they apparently can be "taken away at any moment". You slander generations of workers who fought for their rights and real change in society, and you slander those who continue to fight for these today

But then you have no interest in the nitty gritty of class struggle. You don't give a fuck about the million tiny victories that have been wrenched from the bourgeoisie, and often paid for in blood. You don't consider these to be necessary or desirable; instead your own conception of society and struggle is purely binary - there is capitalism and then there is not. The actual condition of the working class, their struggle for material gains and class conciousness... all irrelevant to you. Which is exactly why you are irrelevant in turn. Anyone who contends that the likes of the minimum wage, the right to strike and unionise, the 40hr week, etc, are not significant victories for the working class is completely divorced from the latter

So you may not be a post-leftist, you may not be a 'leftist', but you are certainly no communist of any stripe or colour

The Ungovernable Farce

6th August 2009, 19:40

The idea that workers, ordinary people off the street, cannot relate to political action or simply find it "boring as fuck" perfectly illustrates the incredibly shallow nature of both yourself and Crimethinc.
Then why are all existing revolutionary groups in Western countries so tiny? I don't deny that mass revolutionary movements have existed, and I hope they will do again, but you can't deny that they're entirely absent from the UK and Ireland at the moment.

Hey, who cares about economic realities, who gives a fuck about revolutionary conciousness, get rid of that cultural hegemony nonsense... people aren't flocking to Marxist/anarchist groups because their language is boring! Of course, how simple
I don't claim any of those things aren't important. But I think being boring certainly doesn't help.

You've got all the answers, I'm sure of that. But as I said, come back to me when you have even a fraction of organised labour's accomplishments to your name.
I'm not the Saviour of the Proletariat and I never said I was. No single person could ever claim a fraction of organised labour's accomplishments, that'd be impossible. And I'm not against organisation. You confuse a critique of a particular model of organisation with opposition to organisation per se.

You sneer at 'the left' and those who comprise it yet you've nothing to show for your own 'creed' save a gathering of unwashed hippies and a new, sexier, set of buzzwords and jargon
My creed has considerably more to say for itself than that. And if by "a gathering of unwashed hippies" you mean the crimethinc convergence, then I think I've made it clear that I don't consider that to be a part of my tradition. How many times do I need to say it?
I THINK CRIMETHINC ARE WRONG ABOUT LOTS OF THINGS, AND ULTIMATELY PRETTY USELESS. HOWEVER, I ALSO THINK THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF MAKING SOME WORTHWHILE POINTS. GROUPS DON'T HAVE TO EITHER BE PERFECT OR COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY MERIT.
There, was that clear enough for you?

And don't pretend to be an anarcho-communist or anything of the like.
I :wub: strangers on the internet telling me who I am on the basis of having read about two paragraphs by me.

I have plenty of respect for many anarchists, and particularly within the AF, but you are a perfect example of the jokers that they often let in. Idiots like yourself, who can seriously compare two centuries of agitation and labour struggles with not washing, give anarchism a bad name.
I wasn't writing off the whole of "two centuries of agitation and labour struggles"; I was writing off tendencies within them. There's a difference.

You see, this is what I'm talking about. "Leftist groups" now comprise the "last defenders of capital" and their reforms count for nothing because they apparently can be "taken away at any moment".
So you think that you can win meaningful change within capitalism, and the logic of capital won't lead the bourgeoisie to continually attack any victories we win? Does this mean that all we need to do is carry on getting more and more reforms until we arrive at communism?

Which is exactly why you are irrelevant in turn.
And are you relevant? I'm aware that as an anarchist-communist I'm a member of a tiny minority, are you actually deluded enough to think the working class are listening to you?

ellipsis

7th August 2009, 03:08

Once again I was there... these people did not just have really bad "B.O." they had literal dirt on their body, not from doing hard work just being unhealthily unhygienic. I mean walking around barefoot smelling like shit will NOT attract any sort of positive acceptance by almost 90% of the population of America and isn't the point to try and change the accepted ideas of other people and try to turn them on to something different? Something people find approachable? Yet these people are so far removed from modern society as a whole they can't change anything.

Again it would be one thing if it was only even half of the people there that did it, but it wasn't. 98% of them all smelled, had dreadlocks and many walked barefoot in a building and outside that you could most likely end up with a very nasty foot infection at best or worms at worst. They too had become conformers almost dogmatic in their beliefs. Ironic.
Where is your proof that this sort of hygiene is unhealthy? Evidence! To the contrary I work in the dirt, get covered in "literal dirt" everyday and take a shower MAYBE once a week, during which I MAY use soap and shampoo. I get sick once a year for a day at a time and never need to go to the doctor. Being OVERLY hygienic is actually bad is a number of ways. The body needs a certain amount of contact with bacteria in order to build a natural immunity. If you are forever clean your body does not build up an immunity and so when you do come in contact with pathogens, your body cannot fight them. This is where allergies come from and why they are so prevalent. The over use of antibiotics, in products like soap has created bacteria that is virtually immune to all forms of anti-biotics.

As for going barefoot, WTF are you taking about worms and foot infections? I have never seen that happen and I know lots of bare-footed hippies. On the other hand I know lots and lots of people who have gotten fungus and rashes on their feet from wear shoes too much.

As for acceptance by society, you make it seem as though people ought to conform to societal norms, rather than do what they want. If dressing nice is all it took, we would have had a revolution a long time about, back when ditch diggers wore neck ties.

I think you need to relax and stop trying to impose your will on those who are different from you and those whom you do not understand.

On an individual scale, of course not. And that's regards environmentalism; certainly it has no effect on helping to create the conditions for a proletarian revolution. Ditto for meat eating and washing. You might do these to improve (*cough*) the quality of your own life but on the wider scale they are entirely inconsequential

Simply withdrawing from capitalism on an individual basis is absolutely useless. Numerically you're completely insignificant and, as I note below, its not viable on a mass scale

It also has to be noted that this 'freeganism' is an inherently parasitical practice. Its not a viable economic model and its not possible for a mass movement to adopt it. People who practice 'dumpster diving' haven't really withdrawn from capitalism... they've just retreated to the edges where they can live off those those still working and producing
Environmental damage disproportionately affects the third world and, within the developing world poor and minority areas. Therefor a collective effort to improve the environment can and has had meaningful impact on the lives of members of these communities. If people can focus on other things besides the health issues caused by pollution, they can focus on revolutionary activities. If they are no longer hungry because some Food not Bombs "lifestylists" pulled wasted food from a dumpster, their lives are better and the can focus on more important things. If you don't have to buy as much food or other consumer products you don't have to work as much and can start a blog or sell papers and liteterature, etc. Small actions can have big results; even a single spark can start a prairie fire.
Wow you are sounding pretty counter revolutionary in telling me that an individual or small group of people can never affect change. Mass social movements have to begin with smaller efforts. This small efforts have to begin with individual decisions. Now obviously my body odor isn't going to make a union strike but never, NEVER doubt the power of the individual.

Freeganism and the associated lifestyle are a viable economic model or method of mass, class struggle. I have never claimed as much. But for many, including myself at points it is a method of survival. I still work whenever I can but the bounty of capitalism does not always overflowth. Even if I am working, who couldn't use the extra money saved by snagging bread from a bakery dumpster? Why subject your self to the perils of oppressive labor relations any more than you have to.

P.S. I love how this thread's topic has a mind of it's own.

Eastside Revolt

9th August 2009, 06:17

I wonder if anyone who was there(or anyone who has atended Crimethinc events) has anything to say about this:

http://illvox.org/2009/07/smack-a-white-boy-round-two-crimethinc-eviction/

UlyssesTheRed

26th September 2009, 23:07

I wonder if anyone who was there(or anyone who has atended Crimethinc events) has anything to say about this:

Wow. Don't even know where to begin with this. (Sorry, can't include link because I'm new, but it refers to "smack a white boy")

I have long wondered about cop infiltration of APOC cells and this makes me wonder even more. If they aren't infiltrated, they're certainly doing a great job of doing a cop's job for him. Don't go confront capitalism- confront a bunch of stupid, lumpenized anarchists. Brilliant.

On the other side, I find it slightly hilarious that CrimethInc. were so paralyzed by white guilt that they were unable to defend themselves. It was their entire convergence against how many people? I don't care about the gender or skin color of anyone trying to bust up a leftist meeting... they come in and try and shut things down, fists are gonna start flying. Inb4 "Internet Tough Guy Syndrome"- I've actually been in this situation, more than once.

As always, race baiting isn't "radical." It's backward and ties the Black proletariat to the Black petit bourgeoisie, implying that they have some kind of objective connection based on the color of their skin. A look at who is leading the attacks on the living standards of workers of all colors, particularly at the city government level, will disprove this vulgar analysis.

I feel a little unclean sticking up for CrimethInc.... but seriously. Why would anyone attack them? Their biggest crime is being stupid and smelling bad. Again, I think the specter of cop infiltration of APOC is raised quite sharply by this. I have suspected cop infiltration of APOC in the past, and while this doesn't confirm it, it's another exhibit on the pile.

:blink: