The "communist left" - and other communists - a questions.

[Little-Lenin]

Dear fellow revolutionaries:)!

I have a some questions, which I feel I need some help in understanding:

Why the h...can´t the communist left groups (IBRP,ICC and others) come together, and unite??? :confused:

How can they believe to become the beginning of the world communist party, when they are unable to unite themselves?

Marx and Engels was not joking when they stated that the workers of the world must unite.

Do anyone see this unification emerging in the present times?

The communist movement (all kinds of communism) have to unite in a very including fashion. At least that is what I believe. And: the communist movement is still the largest political current in the world. (All kinds of communism, viewed as a whole).

How can we help the workers unite, when we (the "leaders") are political rivals and "enemies?" I see no reason why a Stalinist and a left communist can´t be personal friends - but how shall we overcome all differences?:confused:

These are rough times. Perhaps it is essential to act fast and determined.

How???

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

[the last donut of the night]

Dear fellow revolutionaries:)!

I have a some questions, which I feel I need some help in understanding:

Why the h...can´t the communist left groups (IBRP,ICC and others) come together, and unite??? :confused:

How can they believe to become the beginning of the world communist party, when they are unable to unite themselves?

Marx and Engels was not joking when they stated that the workers of the world must unite.

Do anyone see this unification emerging in the present times?

The communist movement (all kinds of communism) have to unite in a very including fashion. At least that is what I believe. And: the communist movement is still the largest political current in the world. (All kinds of communism, viewed as a whole).

How can we help the workers unite, when we (the "leaders") are political rivals and "enemies?" I see no reason why a Stalinist and a left communist can´t be personal friends - but how shall we overcome all differences?:confused:

These are rough times. Perhaps it is essential to act fast and determined.

How???

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin


Just as the capitalist parties are divided on how to protect capitalism, we are divided on how to get to communism. However, it is extremely important that we find a way to overcome our differences. My best idea on this is to a world council of communist party members, and not leaders. That way, through the democratic process, we will overcome our differences and fight against capitalism. However, this seems far away from this present time. But I believe it is the best political way to overcome our ideological fights that let our guard down and let capitalism survive.

[Leo]

Why the h...can´t the communist left groups (IBRP,ICC and others) come together, and unite??? :confused:

Despite having the same class positions, The ICC and the IBRP have different theoretical and organizational understandings, formulations, policies and criticisms of each other. This would make a merger at the current period unnecessary and opportunistic. This does not mean, on the other hand, that the two organizations do not have fraternal relations and joint work despite problems that occurred in the past.


How can they believe to become the beginning of the world communist party, when they are unable to unite themselves?

I won't speak for the IBRP but the ICC believes that different revolutionary political tendencies unite and form the party when the time comes. Historically, of course, this has been the case with nearly all communist parties formed during the last revolutionary wave. So the ICC doesn't think it will become the party itself, but that the party will come around as a merger of different revolutionary tendencies. On the other hand we think that this will happen organically, when the conditions are ripe, when the working class has produced enough revolutionary minorities which can form a party together.


Marx and Engels was not joking when they stated that the workers of the world must unite.

Most certainly, communists are for unity of all workers in class struggle regardless of their current ideologies, which in most cases includes right-wing and reactionary ideologies. This obviously does not mean that communists should unite with right-wing and reactionary tendencies because there are workers who follow them.


How can we help the workers unite, when we (the "leaders") are political rivals and "enemies?"

The political differences between different tendencies exist for a reason. While I am sure most people have good intentions and genuinely desire a better future, intentions are not the determining factor here. Political currents (correctly) take their politics seriously. All organizations claiming to be revolutionary have an understanding of what being revolutionary means, and these different definitions are made up of mostly irreconcilable positions. In this sense, a political tendency can be expected to cooperate only with other organizations which it considers revolutionary.


I see no reason why a Stalinist and a left communist can´t be personal friends

Certainly. People can be personal friends regardless of political ideologies. This is not a reason for political unity.

[Anarkiwi]

Partys by nature are the wrong
when the conditions are right the people create the party,
andre groz-socialisim and revolution

[Pantaloons]

The IBRP and the ICC were both the product of small groups unifying themselves, into larger groups of revolutionaries. Unity is indeed possible but it isn't that easy. What might appear as a minor theoretical difference can have an enormous impact over the way a revolutionary organization functions in practice. Where revolutionary groups have enough clarity in common with each other they do tend to move together and unify their efforts, but in a situation where the two organizations are going in opposite directions unity is not possible. We live in a situation that as we all know is not revolutionary. A resumption of class struggle on the part of workers can have the effect of forcing revolutionaries to come to an understanding of a new situation, thus bringing about the unity that would otherwise not be possible. This isn't the situation presently. More importantly the militants in both organizations have long running problems with each other on the level of action, how they write about each other and how they treat each other in practice. The IBRP has always taken the position that "the party" must have its basis prepared before the revolutionary situation arises. We base this position on the fact that the Bolshevik party managed its break with Social-Democracy on the formal level far earlier than did revolutionaries in the west and that this was in part responsible for the position the Bolsheviks were able to assume during the revolution. I don't think we can ever expect the conditions to be just right for the creation of the party of the proletariat. Further still, we aren't speaking of a parliamentary party, or an organization of professional revolutionaries, but rather a party of revolutionary workers organized on an international scale. The union of small groups of revolutionaries, like the ICC or the IBRP will not achieve this or bring such an eventuality closer. New groups must emerge. These things do not prevent separate organizations from working together in a fraternal manner.

It could also be argued that having more than one dominant voice in a political movement allows for greater debate and greater political clarity than one organization existing in a situation that is not revolutionary could ever manage to maintain. Rather than hiding and burying differences as a broad front left organization might do, to polemically "fight it out" can even be a far more honest and can lead to greater mutual understanding of the tasks of revolutionaries. These groups can at times go at each other like cats and dogs, but that also doesn't mean they are "enemies". If we were actually enemies, the chances are that we would not be talking to each other at all, not even to trade insults.

The question of why there isn't a greater basis for unity among revolutionaries is a very important one and I am sorry I didn't notice this thread sooner.

[punisa]

Dear fellow revolutionaries:)!

I have a some questions, which I feel I need some help in understanding:

Why the h...can´t the communist left groups (IBRP,ICC and others) come together, and unite??? :confused:

How can they believe to become the beginning of the world communist party, when they are unable to unite themselves?

Marx and Engels was not joking when they stated that the workers of the world must unite.

Do anyone see this unification emerging in the present times?

The communist movement (all kinds of communism) have to unite in a very including fashion. At least that is what I believe. And: the communist movement is still the largest political current in the world. (All kinds of communism, viewed as a whole).

How can we help the workers unite, when we (the "leaders") are political rivals and "enemies?" I see no reason why a Stalinist and a left communist can´t be personal friends - but how shall we overcome all differences?:confused:

These are rough times. Perhaps it is essential to act fast and determined.

How???

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

Very true comrade.
I don't have the actual answers unfortunatly, but I want to join in on your observation.
It is correct when you state that we could form the largest group in the world if we were united.

Capitalism is collapsing, it will never get back on its feet again. They can prolonge its downfall for a year or two, but this is the end of it.

Because of lack of unity - we are in great danger that are chance of rulership (its a hard word, but I cant come up with an alternative) over this world will be taken away by social democrats - capitalists hidden under red masks ! :crying:

We -as united revolutionary lefties must assure two things:
1. that capitalism indeed collapses
2. that capitalism does not ressurect itself under a different name

We can only achieve this as a collective force.
On the leftiest front - our differences one from another are too small (and usually so so so stupid) that we must *figure* out a way too unite, only if temporary.

In the end, when the imperialist pigs go down in history forever, we can peacefully continue our debate.
I say peacefully, cause I can't imagine a fellow Anarchist wage wars on a fellow Communist (Or is it just that I'm a naive bastard?)

All in all, after money is history, I'd have no problem with - for example - France being Anarchist and Germany being Communist :lol:
It'd be like - "come for a visit to our ugly grey skyscrappers and we'll pay a visit to your communes" :laugh:

[the last donut of the night]

Capitalism is collapsing, it will never get back on its feet again. They can prolonge its downfall for a year or two, but this is the end of it.

Don't be so sure.

[punisa]

Don't be so sure.
:lol:
I'm getting more sure by the day actually.
My theory?... Ok, why not, I have time :p

1. since 1945 (end of WWII) up until 1970's in the US productivity went up, salaries went up, profit for capitalists went up
2. since 1970 defeted forces recovered (Germany and Japan) and started producing
3. US must cope with new competiton and thus keep on increasing productivity BUT salaries stay the same !
4. people in the US are hard coded from the day they are born to buy, get, aquire, show - material wealth. They are manipulated so by media and propaganda.
5. beacuse they lack money - wife gets a job, husband gets a second job, grandpa goes back to work
6. Family indeed earn extra, but this extra moolah is squandered away on extra costs (more shrinks, more cool me down medicine)
7. Capitalists jump for joy ! Wages are the same, still profit rises ! Yupieeee !!!
8. CAPITALISTS: Uh-Oh.. we have so much money and so much produced shit. But the working class can't afford all this crap anymore.. What are we to do. Should we raise their salaries so they could buy more? (silenece.. then swine laughter). Of course not ! Let's use are billions of extra cash they earned for us and give them LOANS ! WITH INCOME !!!
9. families get bunch of loans and keep on consumin' - everyone is happy again
10. Capitalist to a fellow swine: Hey, y'know why it is the best thing to lend money to the US working class?
Because they are the RICHEST working class on the planet ! (they have their own homes)
11. years go by ... working class keeps strugglin and strugglin...
12. WORKING CLASS: Uh-Oh.. We can't pay this loans back, we're screwed. Honey ! get the kids. Heeey kidsss - can you spell H o m e l e s s ??
13. CAPITALISTS: (in shaky voice) .. we can't get any money back boss. We can take their houses, but who's gonna buy them??
14. WORKING CLASS: hey hobo friend, what is that you're reading there? Communist Mefisto? Manifesto? hmmm.... hm.... ahh... hmm.....
...
...
...
I think I get it
..
.. WORKERS OF THE WORLD - UNITE !
15. BOOM - end of capitalism.

So there you have it, my cheerful and ever so witty, small 15 step guide on the collapse of capitalism.

Little-Lenin don't sue me for offtopicing, I got carried away. But yeah - that's why we must unite - all under the red banner ! :)

[the last donut of the night]

:lol:
I'm getting more sure by the day actually.
My theory?... Ok, why not, I have time :p

1. since 1945 (end of WWII) up until 1970's in the US productivity went up, salaries went up, profit for capitalists went up
2. since 1970 defeted forces recovered (Germany and Japan) and started producing
3. US must cope with new competiton and thus keep on increasing productivity BUT salaries stay the same !
4. people in the US are hard coded from the day they are born to buy, get, aquire, show - material wealth. They are manipulated so by media and propaganda.
5. beacuse they lack money - wife gets a job, husband gets a second job, grandpa goes back to work
6. Family indeed earn extra, but this extra moolah is squandered away on extra costs (more shrinks, more cool me down medicine)
7. Capitalists jump for joy ! Wages are the same, still profit rises ! Yupieeee !!!
8. CAPITALISTS: Uh-Oh.. we have so much money and so much produced shit. But the working class can't afford all this crap anymore.. What are we to do. Should we raise their salaries so they could buy more? (silenece.. then swine laughter). Of course not ! Let's use are billions of extra cash they earned for us and give them LOANS ! WITH INCOME !!!
9. families get bunch of loans and keep on consumin' - everyone is happy again
10. Capitalist to a fellow swine: Hey, y'know why it is the best thing to lend money to the US working class?
Because they are the RICHEST working class on the planet ! (they have their own homes)
11. years go by ... working class keeps strugglin and strugglin...
12. WORKING CLASS: Uh-Oh.. We can't pay this loans back, we're screwed. Honey ! get the kids. Heeey kidsss - can you spell H o m e l e s s ??
13. CAPITALISTS: (in shaky voice) .. we can't get any money back boss. We can take their houses, but who's gonna buy them??
14. WORKING CLASS: hey hobo friend, what is that you're reading there? Communist Mefisto? Manifesto? hmmm.... hm.... ahh... hmm.....
...
...
...
I think I get it
..
.. WORKERS OF THE WORLD - UNITE !
15. BOOM - end of capitalism.

So there you have it, my cheerful and ever so witty, small 15 step guide on the collapse of capitalism.

Little-Lenin don't sue me for offtopicing, I got carried away. But yeah - that's why we must unite - all under the red banner ! :)


We all know that this financial crisis has brought even more workers into the struggle. But if it's one thing that capitalism can do well is reinvent itself -- the Great Depression only shows this. It will fall. But today or tomorrow? Nope.