Ruby Ridge - Libertarian nightmare

[The Idler]

I read about Ruby Ridge and got the impression it was of interest to libertarians. Regardless of the ideas of the inhabitants of Ruby Ridge, to me, the incident seems to undermine libertarian ideology. Right to bear arms or any kind or individual rights for example is fairly useless for a individual against an armed state security force who surround your house.

[Richard Nixon]

I read about Ruby Ridge and got the impression it was of interest to libertarians. Regardless of the ideas of the inhabitants of Ruby Ridge, to me, the incident seems to undermine libertarian ideology. Right to bear arms or any kind or individual rights for example is fairly useless for a individual against an armed state security force who surround your house.

The people at Ruby Ridge were traitors and would-be terrorists. What does it have anything to do with most Libertarians. Of course armed government people will overwelm civilians unless there's an organized resistance.

[IcarusAngel]

David Koresh, Gordan Kahl, Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc' show the thinking of modern Libertarians. They believe they can force their corporatist society on everyone - through force - and that they are "true patriots" for fighting social welfare and the government, that they are carrying out the actions of the founding farthers, even though the "founders" put down several armed insurrections.

[Phalanx]

The people at Ruby Ridge were traitors and would-be terrorists. What does it have anything to do with most Libertarians. Of course armed government people will overwelm civilians unless there's an organized resistance.

Right. a 14 year old and a mother carrying her child deserve to be shot.

Honestly, I hope you realize how foolish you sound.

[Richard Nixon]

Right. a 14 year old and a mother carrying her child deserve to be shot.

Honestly, I hope you realize how foolish you sound.

I didn't say they should have been shot. Arresting them would have been better obviously.

[Phalanx]

I didn't say they should have been shot. Arresting them would have been better obviously.

Fair enough. But was there even enough reason to arrest them? Besides their wacko political and religious beliefs, most evidence against them is very sketchy, even the judge ruled that.

[Psy]

Fair enough. But was there even enough reason to arrest them? Besides their wacko political and religious beliefs, most evidence against them is very sketchy, even the judge ruled that.

Yet they ended up on the FBI's radar and the FBI simply wanted deal with them like they dealt with the left. The FBI thought they could simply manufacture evidence against them like they did against leftists and really in the end it worked out for the FBI as more people focus on Ruby Ridge and Wacco then COINTELPRO and the FBI assination of Fred Hampton that makes Ruby Ridge and Wacco look tame.

[trivas7]

Regardless of the ideas of the inhabitants of Ruby Ridge, to me, the incident seems to undermine libertarian ideology.
This is like saying that what happened to the People's Temple was a revolutionary act b/c that's what Jim Jones called it.

[thejambo1]

the people at ruby ridge etc may well be dodgy in their political beliefs but the atf/fbi etc were so over the top it was unreal. they had swat teams,tanks etc utterly mad!!! people were killed because of hearsay and government paranoia,total mental.

[Rosa Provokateur]

the people at ruby ridge etc may well be dodgy in their political beliefs but the atf/fbi etc were so over the top it was unreal. they had swat teams,tanks etc utterly mad!!! people were killed because of hearsay and government paranoia,total mental.

I remember watching it as a kid on the news, I thought the Gulf War re-started lol

[thejambo1]

green apostle, you have hit it right,it was like a war. crazy times.

[Psy]

the people at ruby ridge etc may well be dodgy in their political beliefs but the atf/fbi etc were so over the top it was unreal. they had swat teams,tanks etc utterly mad!!! people were killed because of hearsay and government paranoia,total mental.

The previous opponents the FBI tackled was the Black Panthers and American Indian Movement both embarrassed the FBI by showing the FBI had completely lack even basic tactics when it comes to warfare against even poorly armed militias. As far as the FBI was concerned Ruby Ridge was guarded by a militia just as skilled as AIM and the Panthers, they didn't at the time know they were going up against a milita even more inept then the FBI when it came to battlefield tactics and the terrian would have made it easy for a competent milita to hit and run the FBI in the forest.

[Guerrilla22]

The thing is, the father, Randy Weaver had a warrant for his arrest due to illegal weapons charges. He was caught once and arraigned, but got out on bail and never showed for his court date. So another warrant was issued, however Weaver refused to turn himself in.

Sure enough the FBI or the ATF, one of the two showed up to bring him in. Only they came on to the property wearing camoflauge and mask over their faces, heavily armed, with nothing on them to identify themselves as federal agents. The family saw them on the property, and a shoot out ensued.

Of course the son and the wife died in the standoff, that followed, which was aheavy handed show of force, no argument. It also came out that the FBI didn't follow their rules of engagment that they were legally bound to, they shot in instances where they clearly were not in any danger. In the end Weaver sued the govt. for violations of his civil rights and won. It wasn't really a case of the right to bear arms, the authorities did act improperly though.

[Rosa Provokateur]

green apostle, you have hit it right,it was like a war. crazy times.

I know... I miss the 90's -_-

[Judicator]

I read about Ruby Ridge and got the impression it was of interest to libertarians. Regardless of the ideas of the inhabitants of Ruby Ridge, to me, the incident seems to undermine libertarian ideology. Right to bear arms or any kind or individual rights for example is fairly useless for a individual against an armed state security force who surround your house.

I think the libertarian claim behind the right to bear arms is only that they act as some check against government force, not that they will in each instance be able to stop organized government force. So one house, sure, but an entire state, maybe not.

[Verix]

The people at Ruby Ridge were traitors and would-be terrorists. What does it have anything to do with most Libertarians. Of course armed government people will overwelm civilians unless there's an organized resistance.
they even shot the fucking dog....was he a "would-be terrorists" aswell?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco really get to me.

But what pisses me off even more are those who, especially concerning the Branch Davidians, excuse the government becuse 'those people were carzy.'

What The Fuck?


One thing I thought was a bit odd about Waco, was that the reason the ATF got involved in the first place was because the Davidians were supposedly stashing illegal guns, including 50 cal machine guns. yet when they wen't in, initially, they were covered by a tarp in the back of a cattle trailer.

Anyway, that whole thing was fucked up. Practically everyone in the compound killed, including kids and pregnant women, and also the fact that Koresh came out trying to negotiate with the "surpirse raid" before hand, which hints to me that it was more than likely some gung-ho fed who fired first, and almost immediately after the shootout began (should be noted the doors where the first bullets were fired into and which could determine who fired first dissappeared after the siege) people from inside were calling 911 to ask that the shooting stop.

The feds were looking for a fight. The siege was incredibly tragic. Just so happens I saw some footage the other day that was released years later by the FBI, in which, during the siege, people inside taped themselves talking about why they were there as part of attempts at ending the siege and establishing more communication. Well, as you can surely look up for yourself, they're not crazy. The FBI certainly thought there weren't portraying the image they wanted so they never released them to the media at any point during the siege or the massacre.

That whole thing was fucked off.

[Psy]

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco really get to me.

But what pisses me off even more are those who, especially concerning the Branch Davidians, excuse the government becuse 'those people were carzy.'

What The Fuck?


One thing I thought was a bit odd about Waco, was that the reason the ATF got involved in the first place was because the Davidians were supposedly stashing illegal guns, including 50 cal machine guns. yet when they wen't in, initially, they were covered by a tarp in the back of a cattle trailer.

Anyway, that whole thing was fucked up. Practically everyone in the compound killed, including kids and pregnant women, and also the fact that Koresh came out trying to negotiate with the "surpirse raid" before hand, which hints to me that it was more than likely some gung-ho fed who fired first, and almost immediately after the shootout began (should be noted the doors where the first bullets were fired into and which could determine who fired first dissappeared after the siege) people from inside were calling 911 to ask that the shooting stop.

The feds were looking for a fight. The siege was incredibly tragic. Just so happens I saw some footage the other day that was released years later by the FBI, in which, during the siege, people inside taped themselves talking about why they were there as part of attempts at ending the siege and establishing more communication. Well, as you can surely look up for yourself, they're not crazy. The FBI certainly thought there weren't portraying the image they wanted so they never released them to the media at any point during the siege or the massacre.

That whole thing was fucked off.

You have to factor in that previously the FBI was doing much worse the left (basically political police that even Hoover admitted primary function was crush the left in the USA by any means). Previously they setup assassinations of leftist leaders, infiltrated leftist organization to make them commit crimes so the police could arrest them, intercepted communications of leftists so they could spread disinformation that led to confusion and distrust. Then there were the tries between the FBI and organized crime syndicates were the FBI paid criminal organizations to torture and intimidate leftists (all was exposed as part of COINTELPRO).

In other when dealing with the left the FBI didn't let the law get in their way so it seems with Ruby Ridge and Waco they were in the same mindset that the law didn't apply to them.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Absolutely, obviously the killing of many civil rights leaders and others on the left have Hoovers greasy fingerprints all over them.

I would say that Waco was the culmination however. While blasting Fred Hampton a few hundred times in the wee hours of the morning is horrific, lighting a compound occupied by pregnant women and children on fire, and using a tank or whatever the fuck that vehicle was on them, is on a bit of a different scale.

[The Idler]

You have to factor in that previously the FBI was doing much worse the left (basically political police that even Hoover admitted primary function was crush the left in the USA by any means). Previously they setup assassinations of leftist leaders, infiltrated leftist organization to make them commit crimes so the police could arrest them, intercepted communications of leftists so they could spread disinformation that led to confusion and distrust. Then there were the tries between the FBI and organized crime syndicates were the FBI paid criminal organizations to torture and intimidate leftists (all was exposed as part of COINTELPRO).

In other when dealing with the left the FBI didn't let the law get in their way so it seems with Ruby Ridge and Waco they were in the same mindset that the law didn't apply to them.
I'm not sure what the point is of saying the left were being treated worse. State attacks on libertarians are no more justified than state attacks on the organised left. Neither is left-wing ideology more justified than libertarian ideology on the basis of intensity of attacks on it.

The question (and fatal flaw in the ideology) to libertarians is; what would you do to survive when a unwelcome state force comes to attack your home? Radio for help from your local militia (and what if the signal is being jammed)? Call 911? Shoot first? Blow yourself up?