Nazis

[Manifesto]

I have recently found out that Nazis are in fact in favor of Socialism not Fascism. Really I am not sure what to make of this since I thought that since of course Hitler was obviously Fascist that they would be too.:confused:

[Sand Castle]

I have recently found out that Nazis are in fact in favor of Socialism not Fascism. Really I am not sure what to make of this since I thought that since of course Hitler was obviously Fascist that they would be too.:confused:
Don't be silly. Nazis aren't in favor of socialism. Where did you hear this?

The term National Socialism is often called by its German slang nickname, Nazism (hence Nazis). Now here is the thing. Nazis don't favor a socialist economy, they favor a mixed economy. They want to socialize some things and leave others private. The socialized things would be under the control of bureaucrats, not democratic workers' councils. Their economics are very similar to Mussolini's.

Fascist Italian economics was called corporatism (or corporativism). It was basically a mixed economy where the state would only intervene in private enterprise when necessary. It's not very different, although there are some differences, from the modern American economy.

Now, Strasserism, as opposed to Hitlerism, was thought up by the Strasser brothers of the NSDAP (German Nazi Party). They supported a strong state with private enterprise and the legal idea of a tithe. It's kind of like an attempt to modernize feudalism.

The only reason they have socialist in the name of their ideology is because they took some policies of the so-called (meaning fake) socialist parties in Germany at the time.

Hitler said the "socialism" in National Socialism (Nazism) just meant being a good German. It has nothing to do with left-wing socialism. Do you understand? If not, let me know. I'll try and break it down a little more for you buddy. :lol:

k thx bai

[ComradeOm]

Don't be silly. Nazis aren't in favor of socialism. Where did you hear this?Its a common refrain on the US Right where both Communism and National Socialism are viewed as 'heretical' off-shoots of socialism. Apparently the only guiding criteria for socialism is dirigisme (hence the 'Obama is a socialist' calls). It also feeds nicely into the totalitarian school of history that sees Nazi Germany ans Stalinist Russia as fundamentally similar regimes


Now here is the thing. Nazis don't favor a socialist economy, they favor a mixed economy. They want to socialize some things and leave others privateThe Nazis didn't want to socialise anything. They nationalised one or two key industries (or, to be more accurate, folded them into the private empires of leading Nazi members) but never threatened the existence of the private economy or expected the creation of a 'market socialist' one. Their economic policies were actually significantly less radical than Mussolini's and largely revolved around autarky

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

The characterisation of Nazism as a left-wing movement holds a mirror to the intellectual era in which we live...

There was a "left wing" of the Nazi party which held an anti-semitic contempt towards finance capitalism. The most prominent of which was Gregor Stasser, killed during the night of the long knives, which is basically the day the music died for that wing of the party. Even then, it was much more populist than it was 'left' and they were still staunchly nationalistic.

Goebbels at one time was even part of Strasser's faction and wanted an alliance between Nazis and Socialists, he even became disillusioned with Hitler when after leaving jail Hitler proclaimed that Jews, not capitalists were the enemies of Germany. But given one conversation with Hitler, Goebbels repented and swore his allegiance to Hitler. I think most right-wing authoritarian movements can be defined as having an absence of economic policy (in spite of populist rhetoric), usually just going along with the status quo as it's the easiest way to garner support from the ruling elites. Hitler also said "the basic function of our economic theory is that we have no economic theory at all".

Given that the capitalism we recognise globally doesn't really corroborate with the classical liberal philosophy of capitalism, our economy is fairly similar to fascism. Upton Sinclair said that "fascism is capitalism plus murder", it's a defense of the ruling class. It's also characterised as the merger of state and corporations, which holds reasonably true given the recent bailouts and even before then if you look at companies like Enron...

I'm not saying that we live in fascism, that's just puerile and sensationalist... I'm just saying that fascism wasn't really anything new. The symptoms of fascism aren't anything new, fascism was just how it enveloped in Italy c. 1920.

[Comrade Singh]

"Equality for everyone, just make sure its only for the the people we like":rolleyes:

[Misanthrope]

Tell that to the socialists they executed or the rich that go Hitler into power:rolleyes:

[Nwoye]

yeah the Nazis executed communists, broke up trade unions and actively promoted social Darwinism. they were far from socialists.

[Qayin]

Nazis = nationalists
Socialists,communists = internationalists

[mel]

Nazis = nationalists
Socialists,communists = internationalists

National Socialists = Oxymorons

[Manifesto]

So it was pretty much just a name for them?

[mel]

So it was pretty much just a name for them?

Yes.

[Pogue]

yes they just used it as a name, playing off of the fact that socialism was a popular term at the time as germany had a very well developed socialist/social democratic movement and people wanted to hear such words during a time of economic slump in germany

[Manifesto]

Oh, I really have to stop listening to my Conservative father.

[mel]

Oh, I really have to stop listening to my Republican father.

:facepalm:

[ZeroNowhere]

Now here is the thing. Nazis don't favor a socialist economy, they favor a mixed economy.Yes, a mixture of capitalism and capitalism.

[Sand Castle]

Yes, a mixture of capitalism and capitalism.
A mixture of capitalism and state-capitalism. Not that the class nature of either of the two capitalisms is different. It's all bourgeois.

[NoMore]

The nazis' actions may have been far from the usual actions of other socialst parties, but they considered themselves to be "nationalist socialist". The biggiest point behind hitler's hatred for the jews was that they were capitalists.

[Communist Theory]

From what I've learned the term "National Socialist" was used to gather votes the Nationalist part used to make you feel like you were voting for a party that would do things for the "good" of Germany and the Socialist part used to make you feel like you were voting for a party that would make the economy all better and do good for the workers of Germany.

[Pogue]

The nazis' actions may have been far from the usual actions of other socialst parties, but they considered themselves to be "nationalist socialist". The biggiest point behind hitler's hatred for the jews was that they were capitalists.

No, they considered themselves to be national socialists. This was a ideology completely detached from socialism, it just happened to use the same word. I am amazed some people cannot see through this.

I don't understand that second part. I'm going to assume you meant to say 'Hitler hated the jews because he thought they were all capitalists.'

Hitler hated the jews because he bought into the strong current of anti-semetism that has pervaded the ruling elites of society thoughout history. Across Europe the Jews have been persecuted for centuries. Hitler used the Jews as an easy scapegoat, based on this undercurrent of racism which portrayed them as a scheming race of self-interested power mad overlords.

If you think Hitler disliked them because 'they were capitalist' you are stupid for two reasons.

Reason 1). Hitler didn't oppose capitalism. Capitalism still existed in Nazi Germany, and the bourgeoisie were still in control, which is why alot of them supported Hitler and the Nazis. Nazi Germany was as capitalist as anywhere else.

Reason 2). The Jews as a capitalist race is one of the core ideas of anti-semetism, and essentially holds that the Jews use their hidden power and maniuplative skills to get into positions of wealth and power which they use to oppress everyone else. This is simply false, obviously. The Jews as a religion, 'race' or ethnic group are icnredibly diverse because just being from the same area as someone or sharing some 'heritage' doesn't make you similar to them, and doesn't make that group of people homogenous. The same way that there is no such thing as 'black characteristics', 'black behaviour', or contrary to the ramblings of washed up idiots like Johnny Rotten, 'black attitudes'. There are individuals united in communities, very diverse individuals who exist and gain meaning from existence from things more important than some odd idea of 'race'. So Jews contain within this ethnicity (a social construct) capitalists, socialists, apoliticals, pacifists, zionists, anti-zionists, artists, builders, etc. To act as if simply by virtue of being part of an ethnic group you have certain biological traits or attitudes or behaviour types such as being a capitalist is completely absurd. I think you have to be careful with your language. Do you really think the majority of Jews were wealthy capitalists? If so, look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labor_Union

[ZeroNowhere]

The nazis' actions may have been far from the usual actions of other socialst parties, but they considered themselves to be "nationalist socialist". The biggiest point behind hitler's hatred for the jews was that they were capitalists."We stand for the maintenance of private property."
Yeah, he sure hated capitalism.


A mixture of capitalism and state-capitalism. Not that the class nature of either of the two capitalisms is different. It's all bourgeois.State capitalism is just a form of capitalism, so I would assume that you meant free-market capitalism or something of the sort? Still, it's hardly a mixture, it's just private capitalism with increased state intervention. It's more a point on a line than a mixture of anything. That is, in state capitalism, the state owns shit. In free-market capitalism, the state doesn't own shit. In a 'mixed economy' the state owns some shit. So at best you'd just be taking some features of state capitalism and adding them to free-market capitalism. But then again, I get what you were trying to say here, and was more alarmed by the fact that generally the term 'mixed economy' is used to mean a 'mixture between socialism and capitalism', which is rather nonsensical.

[ArrowLance]

I agree with most of what is being said about the nazi party not really being socialist. It is most likely a play on the words to raise support. (and doesn't the word nazi just sound cool?)

[ZeroNowhere]

(and doesn't the word nazi just sound cool?)Not especially, actually. For example, would you prefer a dolphin to be named 'Ecco', or 'Nazi'?

[ArrowLance]

So it's just me that thinks the word has a nice ring to it?

Nazi the dolphin? Hell Yes!

[redarmyfaction38]

No, they considered themselves to be national socialists. This was a ideology completely detached from socialism, it just happened to use the same word. I am amazed some people cannot see through this.

I don't understand that second part. I'm going to assume you meant to say 'Hitler hated the jews because he thought they were all capitalists.'

Hitler hated the jews because he bought into the strong current of anti-semetism that has pervaded the ruling elites of society thoughout history. Across Europe the Jews have been persecuted for centuries. Hitler used the Jews as an easy scapegoat, based on this undercurrent of racism which portrayed them as a scheming race of self-interested power mad overlords.

If you think Hitler disliked them because 'they were capitalist' you are stupid for two reasons.

Reason 1). Hitler didn't oppose capitalism. Capitalism still existed in Nazi Germany, and the bourgeoisie were still in control, which is why alot of them supported Hitler and the Nazis. Nazi Germany was as capitalist as anywhere else.

Reason 2). The Jews as a capitalist race is one of the core ideas of anti-semetism, and essentially holds that the Jews use their hidden power and maniuplative skills to get into positions of wealth and power which they use to oppress everyone else. This is simply false, obviously. The Jews as a religion, 'race' or ethnic group are icnredibly diverse because just being from the same area as someone or sharing some 'heritage' doesn't make you similar to them, and doesn't make that group of people homogenous. The same way that there is no such thing as 'black characteristics', 'black behaviour', or contrary to the ramblings of washed up idiots like Johnny Rotten, 'black attitudes'. There are individuals united in communities, very diverse individuals who exist and gain meaning from existence from things more important than some odd idea of 'race'. So Jews contain within this ethnicity (a social construct) capitalists, socialists, apoliticals, pacifists, zionists, anti-zionists, artists, builders, etc. To act as if simply by virtue of being part of an ethnic group you have certain biological traits or attitudes or behaviour types such as being a capitalist is completely absurd. I think you have to be careful with your language. Do you really think the majority of Jews were wealthy capitalists? If so, look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labor_Union
bits to add in support of your post, the wealthy jews and "zionists" were able to make deals with the nazis where they sold fellow jews for their own salvation.
the "israeli experience" demonstrates this, i think.

[Invader Zim]

Oh, I really have to stop listening to my Conservative father.

I suggest you buy your father a history text book for his next birthday, or Christmas, whichever one comes first. I suggest Roger Eatwell's Fascism: A History has the benefit of being a mainstream introductory work by a respectable academic, thus easy to read and cannot be dimissed for holding a 'leftwing' bias.

[Manifesto]

Yeah I should get him one for Christmas. He thinks that Communism is where the government controls everything.

[NoMore]

No, they considered themselves to be national socialists. This was a ideology completely detached from socialism, it just happened to use the same word. I am amazed some people cannot see through this.

I don't understand that second part. I'm going to assume you meant to say 'Hitler hated the jews because he thought they were all capitalists.'

Hitler hated the jews because he bought into the strong current of anti-semetism that has pervaded the ruling elites of society thoughout history. Across Europe the Jews have been persecuted for centuries. Hitler used the Jews as an easy scapegoat, based on this undercurrent of racism which portrayed them as a scheming race of self-interested power mad overlords.

If you think Hitler disliked them because 'they were capitalist' you are stupid for two reasons.

Reason 1). Hitler didn't oppose capitalism. Capitalism still existed in Nazi Germany, and the bourgeoisie were still in control, which is why alot of them supported Hitler and the Nazis. Nazi Germany was as capitalist as anywhere else.

Reason 2). The Jews as a capitalist race is one of the core ideas of anti-semetism, and essentially holds that the Jews use their hidden power and maniuplative skills to get into positions of wealth and power which they use to oppress everyone else. This is simply false, obviously. The Jews as a religion, 'race' or ethnic group are icnredibly diverse because just being from the same area as someone or sharing some 'heritage' doesn't make you similar to them, and doesn't make that group of people homogenous. The same way that there is no such thing as 'black characteristics', 'black behaviour', or contrary to the ramblings of washed up idiots like Johnny Rotten, 'black attitudes'. There are individuals united in communities, very diverse individuals who exist and gain meaning from existence from things more important than some odd idea of 'race'. So Jews contain within this ethnicity (a social construct) capitalists, socialists, apoliticals, pacifists, zionists, anti-zionists, artists, builders, etc. To act as if simply by virtue of being part of an ethnic group you have certain biological traits or attitudes or behaviour types such as being a capitalist is completely absurd. I think you have to be careful with your language. Do you really think the majority of Jews were wealthy capitalists? If so, look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labor_Union

There was a misunderstanding of what I said. and I probably should have elaborated more.

1.)I don't think all Jews are capitalist and Im sure hitler didn't think so either. The whole "hidden power of the jews" is actually a bigger conspiracy on a theololigical level (It's actually from a book written) and is why he really hated the jews but it isn't what he told the people why they should hate jews. He told them that germany was being over run by Jews and that capitalism was keeping them in power. So his actual motivation and what he told people are totally different.

2.)I don't doubt in my mind that the nazi's were really capitalists. What I was trying to say(which i did in my last post, just very poorly) is that they [claimed to be socialist. They could've really just as well have been semi-socialist. Or simply they wanted everybody else to be socialist except for a small group of people. I think that the whole "socialist" approach that Hitler used was to keep the people from acquiring wealth, because the more wealth that other people have, the more power they more power they have,and I don't think that Hitler would want to share his power. As for the bourgeoisie, that existed in nazi germany,they were there before germany was under hitler's control, and weren't deprived of their property because it would make hitler look like a traitor if he went around and expropriating property from other rich respected white people. So basically he used the term socialism to gain the support of working class germans.

3.) If you don't think that nazi's don't claim to be the least bit anti capitalist,then go on any nazi website and you will see that they say that they "stand for the for the white working class."

[StalinFanboy]

I see more nazis decry class as a "marxist idea," than i see nazis fight for the working class. Except nazi skinheads. Class conflict is indirect contradiction with fascism.

[Sam_b]

As much as this Nazis had disgusting policies and politics all around the board, we don't need to merely focus on the idea that they murdered ethnic minorities, Jews, socialists and trade unionists. to prove that they are not socialist. The giveaway factor would surely be the idea that (although divided by different 'strains' of the concept) all fascist tendencies have in common - the complete destruction of the working class, most importantly as a political vehicle of resistance. The fact of the matter is that the Nazis after coming to power rigourously supported private enterprise and capitalism, to the extent of slave labour in concentration camps, although the capitalisation originated when the Nazis came to power. Their cause of course was boosted by large industrial companies supporting them, most notably in the pharmaceutical and manufacturing industries.

Although coming from a liberal perspective (the author, that is), I reccommend Paxton's in-depth analysis in The Anatomy of Fascism.

[GPDP]

This concept that the Nazis were "socialists" comes not only from the fact that they have socialism in their name, but also from the fundamentally warped definition of socialism that is so prevalent in modern political discourse. This misunderstanding is rooted in two misconceptions: that socialism means anything from modest to total government involvement in the economy, and that this results in tyranny as evidenced by Nazi Germany and the USSR. That is, a tyranny is socialist by definition.

Granted, the later misconception is more common with fringe Austrian nutters and their likes, who see socialism around every corner where the market is not 100% pure and free, but the first one is definitely more widespread. So not only do we have to point out what socialism isn't, but we also have to make it clear what it actually is, and thus point out how Nazism is not only not socialist, but is actually the very antithesis of socialism.

[Invader Zim]

Although coming from a liberal perspective (the author, that is), I reccommend Paxton's in-depth analysis in The Anatomy of Fascism.

I was going to suggest that, but Eatwell's work is far more accessable.