Which Country Is/Was Closest the Ideal of Leftism

[Richard Nixon]

Which nation/regime is or was closest to the ideal of Leftism?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Alabama

Of course it was. :thumbup1:

Speaking in terms of now I would have to say Cuba. North Korea is totalitarian, the USSR doesn't exist anymore, and China is Capitalist.

[scarletghoul]

Anarchist Catalonia was good, and Maoist China too. Of course both of them were ultimately destroyed but I think they were definately in the right directions

[Misanthrope]

Anarchic Spain.

[scarletghoul]

but yeah if youre talking nowadays, then Cuba's maybe the only good example.

[trivas7]

The state is the best example of a functional anarchic system b/c it functions almost entirely on the spontaneous enforcement of rules -- w/out using violence. How?, you ask. Special interest groups give money to political candidates in return for political favors after elections. Democratic governments runs on "contracts" that can never be enforced by the state and are in fact violently opposed to the state.

[More Fire for the People]

China (1958-1968)

[h0m0revolutionary]

I hate to be the loony anarchist, but this is madness. There has never been a state close to the ideals of leftism?!

Unless the ideals of leftism are socialism from above, lack of sexual, artistic and political freedom etc etc :/

[#FF0000]

Paris Commune. Maybe Anarchist Catalonia and some parts of Mao's China. First few months of 1917 Russia.

[Richard Nixon]

Anarchist Catalonia was good, and Maoist China too. Of course both of them were ultimately destroyed but I think they were definately in the right directions


China (1958-1968)

I don't think a place where millions were mass-murdered by the government or at least killed government caused events (ie the Great Leap Backwards or the Anti-Cultural Revolution) is truly "leftist".

[mykittyhasaboner]

I don't think a place where millions were mass-murdered by the government or at least killed government caused events (ie the Great Leap Backwards or the Anti-Cultural Revolution) is truly "leftist".
:lol::lol::lol:

[Richard Nixon]

:lol::lol::lol:

What in the world is so funny about that? Did I say something inaccurate? I just stated the damn facts unless you are inclined to think that Maoistic Sadism is truly the leftist philosophy.

[mykittyhasaboner]

What in the world is so funny about that? Did I say something inaccurate? I just stated the damn facts unless you are inclined to think that Maoistic Sadism is truly the leftist philosophy.

Maoistic Sadism? Oh man your on a roll with the cheesy labels, I find them quite funny. :laugh:

[scarletghoul]

Lol Nixon, the objective history is very differant, and worth researching for yourself. Try to find out why some of us like it so much, there must be a reason.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Lol Nixon, the objective history is very differant, and worth researching for yourself. Try to find out why some of us like it so much, there must be a reason.

I like it so much because I hate capitalism so much.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't think a place where millions were mass-murdered by the government or at least killed government caused events (ie the Great Leap Backwards or the Anti-Cultural Revolution) is truly "leftist".

Yes, I would suggest doing some more research before making such statements. Mao and others probably didn't kill as many people as Capitalist media claims. They inflate the numbers to make us look bad.

[OneNamedNameLess]

I don't think a place where millions were mass-murdered by the government or at least killed government caused events (ie the Great Leap Backwards or the Anti-Cultural Revolution) is truly "leftist".

We don't approve of mass murder. These users are referring to leftist elements of the regime and not those who sadly perished.

What about your county's situation? What about the death, hardship, exploitation and so on faced by people in the past and today to sustain the USA and it's privileges, and create it's desired economic and world status?

[Raúl Duke]

Anarchist Catalonia can be one example
Maybe a bit of the Russian Revolution in the beginning years (all that stuff about the soviets, workers councils, having power in major cities)

[OneNamedNameLess]

What about Anarchist Ukraine?

[Richard Nixon]

We don't approve of mass murder. These users are referring to leftist elements of the regime and not those who sadly perished.

What about your county's situation? What about the death, hardship, exploitation and so on faced by people in the past and today to sustain the USA and it's privileges, and create it's desired economic and world status?

In the past the US has acted cruelly and terribly like all nations in history and today too. But it's not as bad as you think, besides the United States of to-day allows you guys to say all you want (short of violence) but Maoist China or even China today would probably send me to jail for my views.

[mykittyhasaboner]

In the past the US has acted cruelly and terribly like all nations in history and today too. But it's not as bad as you think, besides the United States of to-day allows you guys to say all you want (short of violence) but Maoist China or even China today would probably send me to jail for my views.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/haha_oh_wow.jpg

[danyboy27]

i dont really care how much people Mao killed, and nobody gonna make me have compassion or understanding for the way the cultural revolution happened.

the crimes of capitalism dont erease the crime commited by horribles dictatorship regimes.

we may never know how much people where killed back then, the chinese governement love to rewrite history when it suit them, nothing new from a dictatorship.

nothing good come out from book burning.

[scarletghoul]

How many people.

Anyway there was loads of freedom of speech in maoist China, if you were willing to back up your views and debate them. Ever heard of the hundred flowers movement?

[danyboy27]

i love those little anti revisionist love fest.

[scarletghoul]

Im not anti-revisionist, I just think Mao's democratic policies are important to understanding of history

[danyboy27]

Im not anti-revisionist, I just think Mao's democratic policies are important to understanding of history

Mao was a powermonger, just like every creazy people with power.

power corrupt, you should know that.

[Richard Nixon]

How many people.

Anyway there was loads of freedom of speech in maoist China, if you were willing to back up your views and debate them. Ever heard of the hundred flowers movement?

The Hundred Flowers was a trap for intellectuals and 550,000 of those who criticized Mao was arrested and variously tortured or killed.


Im not anti-revisionist, I just think Mao's democratic policies are important to understanding of history

Democratic?! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Do you work for the Chinese Ministry of Propaganda? :D

[ls]

I hate to be the loony anarchist, but this is madness. There has never been a state close to the ideals of leftism?!

To be fair he said nation/regime. :tt2: Which sound even worse. :lol:


Unless the ideals of leftism are socialism from above, lack of sexual, artistic and political freedom etc etc :/

Quite a few people do seem to think that.

I reckon the Ukrainian and Catalonian free territories have been the best examples so far.

[More Fire for the People]

In the past the US has acted cruelly and terribly like all nations in history and today too. But it's not as bad as you think, besides the United States of to-day allows you guys to say all you want (short of violence) but Maoist China or even China today would probably send me to jail for my views.
You act like this is a bad thing.

[Dimentio]

Norway.

[danyboy27]

You act like this is a bad thing.

the freedom of other dosnt mean shit when they dont think like you eh?

well, if you are leftist you can say and think the way you want but if you arnt, well fuck you buddy, you gonna be raped and tortured beccause we said so!

[RGacky3]

Ever heard of the hundred flowers movement?

Yeah, ever hear what happened after that to the people that spoke out against mao? (by mao).


Quite a few people do seem to think that.

I reckon the Ukrainian and Catalonian free territories have been the best examples so far.

I would include the Zapatista territories, although poor, they are better off and have autonomy.

[Richard Nixon]

You act like this is a bad thing.

Yes people who disagree with the Great Mao must be re-educated! ;)

[rednordman]

Norway.Though I would disagree with you about nowadays. I would say from between 1920-1992 (especially during the 40-60s) you would actually have a point, I think. They never where declared a socialist republic and have always had a monarchy. But all I know is that workers had a lot of rights and the state was very generous. It also send aid to revolutions in africa also (would never be allowed to happen today).

It has always celebrated egelitarian goals also (not so much nowadays) in a way that only its neighbours can boast also (apart from UK obviously)

This is all based on testimonies from my family, so I can only speak from my own experiences as of 1984 onwards. All i can say is that it is now been ruined by capitalism (and so expensive its both offensive and embarrasing-im scared to take my mates there now).

[RGacky3]

Though I would disagree with you about nowadays. I would say from between 1920-1992 (especially during the 40-60s) you would actually have a point, I think. They never where declared a socialist republic and have always had a monarchy. But all I know is that workers had a lot of rights and the state was very generous. It also send aid to revolutions in africa also (would never be allowed to happen today).

It has always celebrated egelitarian goals also (not so much nowadays) in a way that only its neighbours can boast also (apart from UK obviously)

This is all based on testimonies from my family, so I can only speak from my own experiences as of 1984 onwards. All i can say is that it is now been ruined by capitalism (and so expensive its both offensive and embarrasing-im scared to take my mates there now).

Its still more so that way than other european countries, supprisingly Norway has been able to hold on to Social democracy more.

Also, the low unemployment rate and the actual worker effectiveness of Norway disproves all the Capitalists "incentive" scare stories.

A Socialistic culture and a Capitalistic culture changes, the so-called "human nature".

[More Fire for the People]

the freedom of other dosnt mean shit when they dont think like you eh?

well, if you are leftist you can say and think the way you want but if you arnt, well fuck you buddy, you gonna be raped and tortured beccause we said so!
Rape? No. Torture? Maybe. Forced labor? Definitely.

[eyedrop]

Norway.

Sweden.

[MikeSC]

I really don't think it's justified for people to be mocking Richard Nixon for disliking the actions of self-styled communist states. We should learn whatever lessons we can from Maoism, Leninism, Stalinism- but this trend of "Maoism killed so-many, capitalism only killed this much" "no no, Maoism didn't kill that much, capitalism killed more" doesn't help anyway, and doesn't do justice to the leftists (and rightists/centrists/non-aligned too, of course) who died over disagreements with these "Communist" states.


It's hard to say which comes closest, because leftism isn't static- Marxism has it that a capitalist stage is as necessary, as desirable even, as a socialist stage of society in the grand scheme of things.

[JimmyJazz]

Paris Commune. Maybe Anarchist Catalonia and some parts of Mao's China. First few months of 1917 Russia.

I would narrow the last one to Petrograd and Moscow. The relationship with the peasantry was always more tenuous.

To tell the truth, if we didn't have modern nation-states of the size that we do, and individual cities had political self-determination, I think most cities in the world besides Las Vegas would be socialist by now. For one, because genuine grassroots socialism works for the urban working class, and secondly, because I can't even count the number of cities in which genuine, politicized working class uprisings have occurred, and have always either been put down by the armed forces of the capitalist state, or in one case, have resulted in a socialist state (Paris 1871, St. Louis 1877, Petrograd 1917, Seattle 1919, parts of Germany in 1918-19, parts of Spain in 1936, etc...).

Anyway, asking what countries most exemplified functioning socialism is confused. We don't believe in monolithic nations on this site. Economic systems don't serve nations, they serve classes. It would be better to ask when and where leftist policies most benefited the working class. Conversely, you could ask when and where capitalism best served the capitalist class, but to ask when and where capitalism worked the best for an entire nation would be contradictory. Short of communism (classless society), this will always be the case.

[JimmyJazz]

[In Norway] workers had a lot of rights and the state was very generous

You think that describes socialism???

[rednordman]

You think that describes socialism???Not exactly, but thinking about it, its more the countries attitude to work. As RGacky3 mentioned, they have a good history of low unemployment, and good work ethic. I have also heard that the differences of income was not so much as it is across Europe (exception being doctors and such).

Other things include the strength of the trade unions there too.

I must add that things are different now from what they where, that is why I mentioned the eras 1920-89. This is the time my Grandad remembered most, and looking at how he was as a person, alot of things that he came out with was very socialistic. I could always see as a kid how the norwegiens differed from the english in values.

Going there now however its totally changed to how I remembered it as a kid. Its almost as if with my grandads death, the country changed over night (not for better or worse). They seem to be hell-bent of becoming a western liberal democracy, and giving up social-democracy.

I must stress that, i do not live there so this is just my impression of things. It would be very interesting to hear actual norwegiens opinions.

[JimmyJazz]

Social democratic measures might make a place better to live in (they do), but my point was that socialism is workers' control of industry, not paternalistic handouts be state, which is social democracy.

[Bud Struggle]

Social democratic measures might make a place better to live in (they do), but my point was that socialism is workers' control of industry, not paternalistic handouts be state, which is social democracy.

But isn't that all about how you think of the state? If the state is made up of workers taking a fair share of the nation's resources through taxes on business owners--in a way the business owners are a "tool" of the state owned by the workers. (Certainly they have more votes than the Bourgeois.) Social Democracy is kind of a backward Socialism but it seems to get a similar result as Socialism.

[eyedrop]

I must add that things are different now from what they where, that is why I mentioned the eras 1920-89. This is the time my Grandad remembered most, and looking at how he was as a person, alot of things that he came out with was very socialistic. I could always see as a kid how the norwegiens differed from the english in values.

I grew up on stories from my grandfather on how he was cheated by the "socialistic state" as a sailor in the same time period.

[rednordman]

I grew up on stories from my grandfather on how he was cheated by the "socialistic state" as a sailor in the same time period.Interesting. I have heard abit of stuff like this, but was he referring to the working conditions, or very high taxes? My grandad was a welder in a shipyard, and all i can say is by the time he retired he desperatly needed 'state-help' to help pay for his care. His hands where nearly always closed due to arthritis.

As for the high-taxes, whats your opinion on this? I know that the average wage is much higher than the UK, but does it make a difference? or is everything simply very expensive to counter that? (this is what it looks like from my experience).

[CommunityBeliever]

IMHO, Cuba is the most free/leftist country in the world right now, followed by Venezuela.

I do not care to speculate on countries that exist in the past since it is often hard to tell what is bourgeoisie propaganda about a past country and what is not.

[eyedrop]

Interesting. I have heard abit of stuff like this, but was he referring to the working conditions, or very high taxes? My grandad was a welder in a shipyard, and all i can say is by the time he retired he desperatly needed 'state-help' to help pay for his care. His hands where nearly always closed due to arthritis. His main beef was when the government basically nulled the sailors pension fund. He payed in for it his whole working career and then he didn't get shit out of it.


As for the high-taxes, whats your opinion on this? I know that the average wage is much higher than the UK, but does it make a difference? or is everything simply very expensive to counter that? (this is what it looks like from my experience). The high taxes are fine, although the upper tax bracket should be higher than the median wage. Also, taxes aren't for rich people, as everywhere else. It is somewhat irritating to pay a higher percentage tax than the top ten list (http://www.skattelister.no/?do=search-kommune&fylke=123)

I've been in Wales and Scotland and from what I could judge we have it more economically comfortable here, but I would guess the high prices counter it a bit.

[RGacky3]

As for the high-taxes, whats your opinion on this? I know that the average wage is much higher than the UK, but does it make a difference? or is everything simply very expensive to counter that? (this is what it looks like from my experience).

The taxes are pretty progressive. The working mans wage is much higher. I make about 150% of what I made in the US. Some things are more expensive (most extreme example being alcohol), however its not harder to survive.

[ls]

IMHO, Cuba is the most free/leftist country in the world right now, followed by Venezuela.

Actually like RGacky said, the Zapatista territories probably are.


I do not care to speculate on countries that exist in the past since it is often hard to tell what is bourgeoisie propaganda about a past country and what is not.

That's quite a dumb argument. I bet if we were discussing Soviet Russia you would not be saying this.

[scarletghoul]

I dunno if EZLN territory counts as a "country". There are a few other places held by socialist rebels that are probably quite good aswell.

And sorry for not replying earlier, but going back to the allegation that the hundred flowers campaign was just a trap so that mao could kill all opposition, this is complete bullshit. First its worth noting that Mao was at odds with many other members of the communist party, and it was they who forced him to end the campaign and crack down on dissent. But Mao himself always advocated democracy and free debate, even military democracy (an idea unthinkable in a western 'democratic' society). If you look at Mao's writing you can see that a major principle of his is that free debate be allowed in order to find the correct course of action. The campaign was also developed by Zhou Enlai who played a major role in it. If he knew people would be persecuted as a result then he certainly wouldn't have got involved.

[Bud Struggle]

Actually like RGacky said, the Zapatista territories probably are.


They are a bunch of locals running around through the rain forests shooting monkeys out of trees with blowguns--that hardly qualifies as a country. OK, maybe they are a tad more sophisticated than that--but not much. :rolleyes:

Besides I think they outlaw liquor! I doubt you can consider the place "civilized" in the least. :D

[ls]

I dunno if EZLN territory counts as a "country". There are a few other places held by socialist rebels that are probably quite good aswell.

You can go ahead and name them if you want, in the meantime I think that the Zapatista territories are pretty good myself going on what we would ideally like and what exists in the here and now.

Also the OP said "country or regime", not just country, regime sounds worse anyway, like a dictatorship. :p

[Richard Nixon]

IMHO, Cuba is the most free/leftist country in the world right now, followed by Venezuela.

I do not care to speculate on countries that exist in the past since it is often hard to tell what is bourgeoisie propaganda about a past country and what is not.

Venezuela I can understand (it still remains technically a democracy) but Cuba? Then why does Cuba arrest anti-government folks and put them in jail, ban various things (like cellphones until recently), and hundreds of thousands try to escape from Cuba.


I dunno if EZLN territory counts as a "country". There are a few other places held by socialist rebels that are probably quite good aswell.

And sorry for not replying earlier, but going back to the allegation that the hundred flowers campaign was just a trap so that mao could kill all opposition, this is complete bullshit. First its worth noting that Mao was at odds with many other members of the communist party, and it was they who forced him to end the campaign and crack down on dissent. But Mao himself always advocated democracy and free debate, even military democracy (an idea unthinkable in a western 'democratic' society). If you look at Mao's writing you can see that a major principle of his is that free debate be allowed in order to find the correct course of action. The campaign was also developed by Zhou Enlai who played a major role in it. If he knew people would be persecuted as a result then he certainly wouldn't have got involved.

Even if that is true then logically Mao did not control Maoist China and therefore it still wasn't a good example of an ideal leftist state.

[Kronos]

My nutts have so far been the most adequate example of socialism as Marx described it. Two testicles working together altruistically behind an iron scrotum. Each part a necessary function in the modes of production, distribution and consumption. The anatomy of my nutts consists of a single working class democracy- there are no ruling class beaurocratic, single-party affiliates. They engage in global trade with the rest of the body and raise no sanctions against foreign regions, so they are not isolationists. Concerned with the international struggle of the genitalia, they promote the welfare of the reproductive system at any cost.

[rednordman]

Some things are more expensive (most extreme example being alcohol).Yep, 650Nkr (now around £65) for 24 cans of watered down Hansa Premium is not funny.

[LeninBalls]

No one mentioned Paris Commune?

[scarletghoul]

Even if that is true then logically Mao did not control Maoist China and therefore it still wasn't a good example of an ideal leftist state.
Of course Mao didnt control China at the time, there were a few competing powers at play. And no one ever claimed it to be an "ideal leftist state", just a good example of a society heading in the right direction.

[Richard Nixon]

Of course Mao didnt control China at the time, there were a few competing powers at play. And no one ever claimed it to be an "ideal leftist state", just a good example of a society heading in the right direction.

Not that either, since it's rulers had enough clout to ban free speech.

[Nwoye]

No one mentioned Paris Commune?
considering that it only existed for a couple months, and that very little collectivization and radical changes took place (just shifts in who controlled everyday tasks) now it was not an adequate example of "leftism". It was certainly a valiant effort though.

[Dust Bunnies]

I'll just drop this link here to help with the Cuban argument: http://www.cubatruth.info/

[Richard Nixon]

I'll just drop this link here to help with the Cuban argument: http://www.cubatruth.info/

The arguments are circular for instance they claim that one party does not mean democracy! And they say it is so because there are many differences in the Communist Party of Cuba-is there any examples? 99% of the population vote they say most dictatorships are like that with everyone pressured to vote and vote for the rulers of course. 72 prisoners were all in prison because they were supposed to be American agents yet who's word to we have other then that of the Cuban government! Thus the argument boils down to the Cubans say it's so so it is correct.

[mykittyhasaboner]

The arguments are circular for instance they claim that one party does not mean democracy!
No, they claim they opposite; that a 'one-party system' =/= "no democracy".


Q: Isn't Cuba a dictatorship?
A: No. There is a one party government in Cuba, but that does not mean that democracy doesn't exist there.



99% of the population vote they say most dictatorships are like that with everyone pressured to vote and vote for the rulers of course.
Nice one! Now is the time where you substantiate this claim.

Or, I can just show you how wrong you are, saving you the trouble.


Within the parameters of the socialist revolution, there were important measures to institutionalize democracy including elections. The 1974 electoral laws were primarily responsible for giving shape to the voting procedures that August writes about. In particular, August examined the operations of municipal elections in the period from June 1997 to February, 1998.
For the Cubans the term municipality has a somewhat definition than we use in the US, where New York City is considered a municipality. Havana, Cuba's largest city, is not a municipality. Instead, it is considered a province and contains 15 municipalities within its borders. August's book is a study of the elections in one such municipality in Havana, and in particular, one of the 104 wards contained therein. This ward, number 12, is about 8 square blocks and is home to 1,291 citizens. They are entitled to one municipal delegate.

Candidates were nominated in a public gathering, usually consisting of 500 people. Any citizen has the right to nominate any other. Personal integrity and the respect of the community are decisive factors in selecting a candidate. Once candidates are selected, photos and biographies are posted in public areas. Candidates need no money to run, nor for that matter is it allowed. A typical biography for the ward being surveyed:
"The biography of Jesús Pastor Garcia Brigos tells the voters that he was born in Havana in 1961 from a working-class background, and that as a husband and father to two girls he works as a researcher with the Institute Of Philosophy at the CITMA (Ministry of Science, Technology and the Environment) after having completed his doctorate in Philosophy. He is a member of the Comité de Defensa de la Revolución, the Central de Trabajadores de Cuba, Civil Defense and the Territorial Militia. His biography reveals him as a person active since 1969, first in the youth movement in the late 1960s to later on being secretary of his union local at the place of work in the 1980s, as well as carrying out voluntary work such as contributing to build the Pan American Olympic site. In addition to being elected as delegate to the Municipal Assembly of Plaza de la Revolución since 1986, as well having been elected in the past to the Provincial Assembly of Ciudad de la Habana, most of his current work has been dedicated to writing and speaking nationally and internationally on the development and improvement of democracy in Cuba and especially the two distinct themes of governing and the electoral process."

(Now why can't we get decent candidates like this in the United States?)

On October 19, 1998 voting by secret ballot yielded 515 municipal delegates. The national assembly is also fully democratic but nominations are carried out by mass organizations and citizens committees. 1.6 million people were consulted by the citizens committee and 60,000 were put forward on the first electoral list. Cuba uses computers to allow review of the candidates and their records, including Fidel Castro himself who received 98% of the vote in the last election. Another sign of the popularity of socialism, despite the hardships imposed by imperialism, is that no more than 10 percent of the ballots were spoiled, a protest that anti-Communist groups urged.

During the discussion period, I challenged August with a tough question even though I am a partisan of the Cuban revolution. I hoped that a forthright answer would help me in my solidarity work. I wondered if the most important elections in Cuba were not the ones he was reporting on, but the ones that took place at Communist Party conventions. After decisions are made at the convention, isn't it the responsibility of the Communists under the strictures of democratic centralism to promote the party line in mass organizations?

His reply yielded some interesting information about the direction that Cuba had taken toward "openness" prior to "glasnost". In the 1980s, long before the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the Cuban leadership had become concerned about problems of bureaucracy that might threaten the roots of socialism itself. In order to root these problems out, they made a decision to shift as much decision-making power as possible to the masses themselves, many of whom are not Communist Party members. This led to the adoption of electoral reforms in 1992-93 and, more importantly, calls by the Cuban leadership for more popular participation:

The crisis which broke out in eastern Europe and the U.S.S.R. only served to further highlight the significance of the changes already being brought about in Cuba based on its own experience. After having carried out changes to rectify problems in the economy and political process, another move was initiated for the 'perfeccionamiento' of, amongst other things, the political process. Once again not only was it the party which catalyzed the sentiment of the people to deal with this issue, but it was this organization and its leadership which was most adamant in insisting that the people vent their feelings and opinions so that the party can deal with the problems adequately. Gail Reed, in her book on the fourth party congress, provides an account of how the call of the party for the congress was distributed massively amongst the people for discussion, but was almost immediately followed by an abrupt halt. This did not take place because issues were raised which may have irked the party and the leadership, as the prevailing prejudices would have it. On the contrary, the party was disappointed that not enough open, frank, pluralistic debates and discussions were taking place. The party was not interested in discussion for the sake of formality. And so the call and the procedure was re-issued by the party declaring that "...the limits of discussion cannot be fixed beforehand... Our Party should understand that the call’s discussion has a dual purpose: on the one hand, it is a real consultation, where people can express different views; and on the other hand, it is a process of political clarification.... What is needed is a dialogue, a confrontation of ideas, where the most convincing, best argued and defended, win out."
Arnold August's book is available from amazon.com and is strongly recommended for activists and scholars who view the Cuban revolution as one of the continuing great legacies of socialism in the 20th century and a model for the one that is approaching.
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/democracy_in_cuba.htm (http://www.columbia.edu/%7Elnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/democracy_in_cuba.htm)

[Lenin II]

Now that all the trolls are gone...


Albania.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Now that all the trolls are gone...
:lol: yeah right.

[Manifesto]

Did not know Albania was Communist.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Not that it's a particular region per se, but American universities tend to be mostly "socialist" in composition: http://www.revleft.com/vb/discriminate-defense-postsecondary-t112824/index.html

[Bud Struggle]

Not that it's a particular region per se, but American universities tend to be mostly "socialist" in composition: http://www.revleft.com/vb/discriminate-defense-postsecondary-t112824/index.html

I went to Georgetown. It's quite Catholic-or was at the time. All in all MAJOR schools have a better mix of people. The University of South West Oshkosh may be more homogenius because of Joe Stalin, Jr. the latest Dean of Hiring.

[Pogue]

Some have compared South London to what Karl Marx aspired towards



I'd prove this but the joy is in coming and finding out for yourselves.

[Lenin II]

Did not know Albania was Communist.

Albania was as socialist as it gets. Seriously.

[Luís Henrique]

None.

"Leftism" does not exist, ideal is not the point, countries (in the sence of Nation States) are intrisically reactionary, and the bourgeois State is like pregancy: either you have one or you don't, it is impossible to "come close" to not having it.

Luís Henrique

[ls]

Some have compared South London to what Karl Marx aspired towards



I'd prove this but the joy is in coming and finding out for yourselves.

Karl Marx lived in north london.

Epic fail on your part methinks.

[scarletghoul]

Yeah he was so close to reaching his ideal utopia.


"Leftism" does not exist, ideal is not the point, countries (in the sence of Nation States) are intrisically reactionary, and the bourgeois State is like pregancy: either you have one or you don't, it is impossible to "come close" to not having it.
Is it me or does this not make any sense?

[red cat]

Now that all the trolls are gone...

Ahem...


Albania.
Nope.

[Lenin II]

Ahem...

Nope.

Yeah, I suppose your second sentence does prove my first one incorrect.

[mikelepore]

The answer the question would be something like the Iroquois Confederacy before the mid-1800s, according to L. H. Morgan, _Ancient Society_ and F. Engels, _Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State_.

(Closest to Marxian socialism, anyway. "Leftism", don't know.)

[Outinleftfield]

Historical: Anarchist Catalonia.
Modern: EZLN Chiapas.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Historical: Woodstock 1969

Modern: Burning Man

[RGacky3]

Historical: Woodstock 1969

Modern: Burning Man

Concerts??? What???

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://www.kentsgardenandnursery.com/images/kent-garden.jpg

Kent.

[ls]

http://www.kentsgardenandnursery.com/images/kent-garden.jpg

Kent.

Kent is just one big riot.

[HEAD ICE]

The Religious Society of Friends aka the Quakers.

[Tifosi]

Mabye Free Derry?

[Red Icepick]

The DDR. The jewel of the Eastern Bloc.

[spiltteeth]

Now? Venezuela and Cuba.

[Honggweilo]

GDR, Maoist China, Socialist Afghanistan, Portugal 74-76, Spanish Republic

Now, Cuba/Nepal/Venezuela/Chipas/Liberated Zones in the Philipinnes

[Havet]

GDR, Maoist China, Socialist Afghanistan, Portugal 74-76, Spanish Republic

Now, Cuba/Nepal/Venezuela/Chipas/Liberated Zones in the Philipinnes


Now, Venezuela and Cuba

How can Cuba and Venezuela be an ideal communist society?

Where is it stateless and classless?

Where are the people free to say whatever they like?

[LOLseph Stalin]

The amish. :D

Ok no, the serious answer would be probably the DDR for the best one in the past. The DDR citizens were actually very well off. As for the present I will definitely have to say Venezuela and Cuba.

[RGacky3]

I would say Bolivia more than Venezuela, not because of the government, but because of the people, their solidarity and their fighting corporate power is incredible and inspiring.

[Weezer]

Leftism is such a broad term, the answer cannot be determined. There's all kinds of leftism. Different societies have been closer to different ideologies of leftism.

[Communist Pear]

How can Cuba and Venezuela be an ideal communist society?

Where is it stateless and classless?

Where are the people free to say whatever they like?

Cuba and Venezuela aren't ideal communist societies, they are closest to ideal communist societies in the world.

And we don't claim that ideal communist societies are stateless, only classless. Cuba and Venezuela are (at least) on their way to becoming classless.

In Cuba and Venezuela. ;)

[proudcomrade]

How can Cuba and Venezuela be an ideal communist society?

Where is it stateless and classless?

Where are the people free to say whatever they like?


They'd be an awful lot closer if the US would finally cease meddling with them...

[Havet]

They'd be an awful lot closer if the US would finally cease meddling with them...

I'm not denying that

And Derk, how can a society be classless if there is a class which is in the State and another who isn't?

How can Cuba and Venezuela be close to the ideal if there are practically "dictators" who manage all the public resources? And what about freedom of speech?

I've been to cuba, and there simply isn't any freedom of speech, only for when one is criticizing the USA (in a platform called Gritodromo)

[spiltteeth]

I'm not denying that

And Derk, how can a society be classless if there is a class which is in the State and another who isn't?

How can Cuba and Venezuela be close to the ideal if there are practically "dictators" who manage all the public resources? And what about freedom of speech?

I've been to cuba, and there simply isn't any freedom of speech, only for when one is criticizing the USA (in a platform called Gritodromo)

I wouldn't say they are close to the ideal, simply closest.

In cuba there isn't an insane wealth discrepancy like in the USA (10,000 to 1; in Cuba it's more like 4 to 1) they are not imperialistic, free great healthcare, free great educations, free housing, free food.

But, plenty of work still to be done. Really it has 'siege socialism' for decades the most powerful nation on the planet -USA-has been trying to bring it down, so it hasn't even been able to develop real consumer socialism, let alone anything like approaching the ideal.

Hey, its the real world though. Cuba is surrounded by hostile enemies, embargoes, propaganda attacks, actual attacks, it can't get medicines, etc etc

[Communist Pear]

I'm not denying that

And Derk, how can a society be classless if there is a class which is in the State and another who isn't?

How can Cuba and Venezuela be close to the ideal if there are practically "dictators" who manage all the public resources? And what about freedom of speech?

I've been to cuba, and there simply isn't any freedom of speech, only for when one is criticizing the USA (in a platform called Gritodromo)

1. The people in the state are chosen by the people, representing the people and do not have any special rights. I am aware that certain individuals in Cuba do have special rights and that these should be leveled down.

2. Not all of the public resources are managed by comrade Castro in Cuba and not all of the public resources are managed by comrade Chavez in Venezuela. Freedom of speech should exist, but counter-revolutionary tendencies have to be worked against, especially in a world where the counter-revolutionaries are supported by the large capitalist nations.

3. I've not been to Cuba, I can't judge this. Can you tell me how you noticed that there was no freedom of speech?

[TC]

Cuba is a lot closer than any of the collapsed former socialist countries, and its a lot closer than Venezuela.

[Bud Struggle]

3. I've not been to Cuba, I can't judge this. Can you tell me how you noticed that there was no freedom of speech?

I've been there (though not for a number of years) I've also been to the Iron Curtain countries and the USSR before it's fall--and they are all similar in their lack of freedom of expression.

You just CAN'T (couldn't) criticize the government without reprocussions. There's a real palpable fear of saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. There are certain things you just don't talk about if you bring up a forbidden subject you are just politely told that it's a subject that's not discussed and some other topic is brought up.

It's all quite polite, smooth and truly heart stopping.

Here's something interesting--I was on a Moscow bus and the bus drove by the KGB building that's quite "out there" by the side of the road. EVERYONE on the bus turned their head and looked out the opposite window as the bus drove by.

[Havet]

1. The people in the state are chosen by the people, representing the people and do not have any special rights. I am aware that certain individuals in Cuba do have special rights and that these should be leveled down.

What about the freedom to elect the President of the Council of State of Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Cuba)?


2. Not all of the public resources are managed by comrade Castro in Cuba and not all of the public resources are managed by comrade Chavez in Venezuela. Freedom of speech should exist, but counter-revolutionary tendencies have to be worked against, especially in a world where the counter-revolutionaries are supported by the large capitalist nations.

So you agree that there is little freedom of speech, but you are blaming it on large capitalist nations?


3. I've not been to Cuba, I can't judge this. Can you tell me how you noticed that there was no freedom of speech?

Mainly by the advice of the ambassadors I met with, who had been living there for two years.

[Communist Pear]

What about the freedom to elect the ... (had to remove link)?



So you agree that there is little freedom of speech, but you are blaming it on large capitalist nations?



Mainly by the advice of the ambassadors I met with, who had been living there for two years.
1. The president is elected by the National Assembly of People's Power, who are elected by the people. There are a lot of Western fake democratic countries that do it this way.

2. Short answer: Yes. Long answer: It is well known that the CIA has tried to produce a counter-revolution in Cuba for a long time, good examples are the Bay of Pigs invasion, DOZENS of assassination attempts by the CIA and support of dissidents inside of Cuba. This all let to the people having to defend the revolution in ways that some of you may find to be against the freedom of speech.

3. Yeah, because ambassadors are like, totally objective, but okay, I'll believe you on your word.

This is a fun discussion. :)

[Die Rote Fahne]

Anarchist Spain after the Revolution.

[Zanthorus]

Çatalhöyük (http://www.urkommunismus.de/index_en.html) and the Iroqouis are pretty good historical examples. As for more modern ones I'd say Anarchist Catalonia and the Paris Commune.

[Bud Struggle]

The Franciscan Brothers in the Catholic Church. They own nothing personally--not even their clothes. They get everything they need from the community and give whatever they get to the community.

[Havet]

2. Short answer: Yes. Long answer: It is well known that the CIA has tried to produce a counter-revolution in Cuba for a long time, good examples are the Bay of Pigs invasion, DOZENS of assassination attempts by the CIA and support of dissidents inside of Cuba. This all let to the people having to defend the revolution in ways that some of you may find to be against the freedom of speech.

I do not understand how cutting on freedom of speech somehow defends the revolution, but ok...


3. Yeah, because ambassadors are like, totally objective, but okay, I'll believe you on your word.

I'm aware they are not objective. Still, it was an interesting opinion. In fact, they (ambassadors) are monitored in their internet access.


This is a fun discussion. :)

Yeah. I'm just straightening some doubts I had. I went there and it was a very poor country. It had a good vibe and culture, but people were still poor. They looked dependent.