The End of Westernisation

[trivas7]

The 20th century was a time dominated by projects of westernisation. Contrary to the common description of the cold war as a conflict between east and west, communism was a prototypically western ideology, with roots in the European enlightenment. Communist regimes everywhere wanted nothing more than to catch up with and surpass the west, not only in terms of wealth but also by outpacing the west in the pursuit of western progressive ideals. They failed miserably in both respects. Mao's China, one of the worst regimes of the last century if not in human history, was no exception. With the fall of communism, the worldwide movement of westernisation has gone into reverse.

It is not just American hegemony that is coming to an end. W/ the rise of China, there will be all manner of dangerous conflicts – not least among the new emerging powers. But the global shift that is under way is in many ways desirable, as well as practically inevitable. Let us hope the West does not cling to the past, stubbornly proclaiming its superiority while floundering in crisises of its own creation.

[RGacky3]

With the fall of communism, the worldwide movement of westernisation has gone into reverse.

How? Examples?


It is not just American hegemony that is coming to an end. W/ the rise of China, there will be all manner of dangerous conflicts – not least among the new emerging powers. But the global shift that is under way is in many ways desirable, as well as practically inevitable. Let us hope the West does not cling to the past, stubbornly proclaiming its superiority while floundering in crisises of its own creation.

American hegemony is still alive and well, chinas power is still nothing compared to Americas.

Also, what is this new non-western trend your talking about? You forgot to mention it.

[ComradeOm]

Trivas if you are going to post nonsense then at least have the decency to credit it as other people's nonsense (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/23/china-rise-west-history)


Also, what is this new non-western trend your talking about? You forgot to mention itMore to the point, how can anyone claim that modern China, which slavishly copies Western economic and technical advances, is less obsessed with Westernisation than Maoist China, or Soviet Russia; ie states that attempted to integrate Western advances/technology into their own very distinctive and rival conceptions of society?

I doubt trivas can answer these questions even if he were to read the book in question. The underlying assumptions here appear to be that "progressive ideals" are the sole preserve of the West and that the PRC is no longer progressive. Or something like that, its all very muddled

Edit: Needless to say this is just another effort to cash in on fears of crumbling US hegemony and a rising China. Books like these seem to be published at a rate of one a week and must now constitute a genre all of their own

[Bud Struggle]

More to the point, how can anyone claim that modern China, which slavishly copies Western economic and technical advances, is less obsessed with Westernisation than Maoist China, or Soviet Russia; ie states that attempted to integrate Western advances/technology into their own very distinctive and rival conceptions of society?


That's exactly right. China is becomming a "western" country just as Japan has become completely western (with some slight cultural traditions remaining.)

Shanghi is a thoroughly Western city--no different in its business centers and downtown than any city in America.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I thought Japan was going to rule the world. It must be true, the 80s told me! :laugh:

[RGacky3]

I think from now on Trivas7 posts should be deleted unless he writes them himself.

[Revy]

Define "Western".
What does it mean to be "Western"? It's such a bogus and outdated term. People seem to think that because countries have nice technology and cities and pop music they are "Western". Seems kinda chauvinist.

[trivas7]

Define "Western".

Those values associated w/ the Enlightenment era which marked a principled departure from the Middle Ages of religious authority, guild-based economic systems, and censorship of ideas. I.e., rational discourse and progress, republicanism, political liberalism, naturalism, scientific method, and secularization.

[Revy]

Those values associated w/ the Enlightenment era which marked a principled departure from the Middle Ages of religious authority, guild-based economic systems, and censorship of ideas. I.e., rational discourse and progress, republicanism, political liberalism, naturalism, scientific method, and secularization.

All of that is VERY inaccurate. I could go on and on about how every single one of those (except for economic changes) isn't true for the "Western world".

Religious authority becoming secularization and the scientific method: How about the "other" national motto of the US being "In God We Trust". How about public prayers by political figures and people being sworn in on Bibles to testify or take office. How about the continuing prevalence of churches and religious institutions and religious beliefs, including resistance to evolutionary theory, rabid pro-lifers and homophobes.

Censorship of ideas becoming rational discourse, "political liberalism", and progress: Yeah, that's bullshit too. The Western world went through two world wars and many brutal conflicts and bombing campaigns. Oppression in many forms, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia. And yes, censorship of ideas. Fascism didn't come from the non-Western world so I don't know what you're on about political liberalism.

last but not least......republicanism. That's hilarious. So are these countries not "Western":
UK (and countries where Queen Elizabeth is still the head of state, Canada, Australia, etc)
Spain
Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Norway
and maybe also Japan since someone in this thread thinks it has become completely Western.

oh wait. "Western" is still vague and bullshit.

I'll tell you what "Western" refers to. It is a term that probably originates back to Christendom vs. Islamic world (hence, West vs. East).

[trivas7]

I'll tell you what "Western" refers to. It is a term that probably originates back to Christendom vs. Islamic world (hence, West vs. East).
This demonstrates your ignorance re Western civilization and what is unique about it.

[rednordman]

This demonstrates your ignorance re Western civilization and what is unique about it.I disagree, I think that in alot of peoples opinions nowadays (especially right-wingers and reactionaries) it is exactly east vs west.

Sure both me and you (regardless of ideology) may know better, but your average patriot (from my own experience) tends to take these views (that Christianity is better than islam, thus every christian country is good and prosperous, and islamic state is awfull and living in the stone age).

Please tell me how that is not chauvenistic? Infact, this is the sort of grounds im getting from people who defend the war in afganistan nowadays (as if its some sort of modern day crusades of something discusting like that).

Mabey I have just been unlucky with some of the people that i have come across in my life? But more and more people are coming up with excuses and philosophy like that to hold on to their patriotism.

[RGacky3]

but your average patriot (from my own experience) tends to take these views (that Christianity is better than islam, thus every christian country is good and prosperous, and islamic state is awfull and living in the stone age).


Your average Christian believes that Christianity is better than islam. It has nothign to do with where your from, also it does'nt have anything to do with being a christian country, its a liberal country rather than a fundamentalist one. Most Patriots also believe that Cuba (mainly christian) is in the stone age whil Saudi Arabia is not.

Its not as simple as west vrst east.