French Concern Over Burqas

[OneNamedNameLess]

Nicolas Sarkozy has voiced his opinion on the burqa.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090622/tpl-uk-france-sarkozy-burqas-b3150e0.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8112821.stm

I am rather intrigued and anticipate users' replies. Frankly I can't stand the idea of the burqa but I can't stand Sarkozy much either. I would love to see Muslim women reject the burqa but is Sarkozy right to restrict women from wearing it?

I didn't fancy posting this in discrimination as the burqa is a form of discrimination against women itself, or so I believe.

Thoughts?

[OneNamedNameLess]

No thoughts on this?

[Jazzratt]

The burqa is a vile tool of an oppressive religion but it must be rejected by the oppressed rather than a third party. Legislation like this will only make matters worse for muslim women.

[Madvillainy]

It's disgusting. We should note that although this could be considered an attack against religion it is ultimately an attack on the minority muslim community in france.

As Jazzrat wrote, the working class itself must break away from religion, measures such as these being taken by the french ruling class will only have the opposite effect.

Also why should our governments dictate how we address? Sickening.

[OneNamedNameLess]

It's disgusting. We should note that although this could be considered an attack against religion it is ultimately an attack on the minority muslim community in france.

As Jazzrat wrote, the working class itself must break away from religion, measures such as these being taken by the french ruling class will only have the opposite effect.

Also why should our governments dictate how we address? Sickening.


I don't really give a shit if muslims are the minority in France. Say they were the majority? Would you perceive this as an attack on them then? Come on, if Christian women were burdened by this and sported something similar would you claim that opposition was an attack on Christians? Furthermore, cross-necklaces and Jewish skullcaps are banned in public schools in France. This is not simply an attack on the Muslim minority. Turkey has introduced similar legislation in the past such as the headscarve ban. Was that anti-Islamic?

I agree with Jazzratt too but I wonder if many of these women can freely discard the burqa. Sometimes external forces must intervene in solidarity but in this case it is unfortunately the ruling class of France.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

While it's nice to see Sarkozy showing signs of being dimly aware of the existence of oppressed people once in a while, this statement seemed to come completely out of the blue. I mean, of course women shouldn't have to wear the burqa, but this is a style of dress very specific to the Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam and the geographical region roughly between Iran and India. How many women in France actually wear burqas?

I smell an attempt to direct the attention of the French working class away from the economic crisis and towards - you know, those weird foreigners and their strange, dangerous ways. *cough*

[Poppytry]

The burqa is a vile tool of an oppressive religion but it must be rejected by the oppressed rather than a third party. Legislation like this will only make matters worse for muslim women.

Its not always easy for the oppressed to reject something. If a handful of women rejected the burqa they could be dealt with by the dominating males. However, if all women are forced to remove the burqa then the males too would accept it as its legislation.

The Q'uran does not say women should be covered up and such.. its simply interpreted and imposed on women by radical males.

[benhur]

Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe, just maybe, Muslim women don't mind wearing the burqa and they don't see it as a symbol of oppression? It's just another clothing...banning it is similar to prohibiting women from wearing skirts for whatever reason.

[Revy]

Women consciously choosing to wear the burqa pose no more threat to France than mimes. Both are expressing themselves in different, unconventional, but un-offensive ways.

However, while a woman can indeed choose to wear such an absurd thing that covers her head to toe, forcing that on a child is unacceptable.

I am against the burqa, but not against the freedom to consciously choose to wear it.

[BobKKKindle$]

It's disgusting that the so-called Communist Party has called for this. There is simply no reason to believe that the burqa or any other garment associated with Islam is inherently oppressive, or different from the types of clothes that other women wear, and by implying that the burqa may be connected with extremism, the groups which support this investigation are encouraging further prejudice against Muslims. Of course there are some women who probably wear it because they would be rejected by their communities if they refused, but there are also significant numbers of women within the Muslim community who make a conscious choice to follow the Islamic dress code, because Islam is part of their identity, and the dress code is seen as a way of asserting their dignity as women, as is evident from the fact that women in France and other European countries where the right to wear Islamic dress has been restricted have expressed their opposition through demonstrations, independently of men, as discussed here (http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/41141/muslims_protest_headscarf_ban_in_france/index.html). The only way anyone can defend the restriction of Islamic dress is if you assume that Muslim women are somehow less capable of deciding what to wear than women of other cultural and religious groups, and are uniquely subject to cultural pressure, but the fact of the matter is that all women (and indeed all people) are socialized into believing that certain things should be worn in certain contexts, even if they are not always comfortable, and it would be downright paternalistic to assume that the state therefore has a right to intervene and tell people that they shouldn't be wearing something just because it offends the sensibilities of a group of (dare I say, white, male) politicians.

In the interests of combating discrimination and defending freedom, all communists should actively oppose any restriction on the right of each and every individual to dress how they please. If people genuinely care about the position of women in society then they should be campaigning for better abortion access, improved provision of childcare services, and a whole range of other demands that arise from the Marxist analysis of gender oppression - not accepting the prevailing discourse of orientalism and Islamophobia by allowing the state to control the lives of its citizens and make assumptions about the decision-making of women who belong to an oppressed group.

[Forward Union]

I am rather intrigued and anticipate users' replies. Frankly I can't stand the idea of the burqa but I can't stand Sarkozy much either. I would love to see Muslim women reject the burqa but is Sarkozy right to restrict women from wearing it?

Of course not. People can wear what the fuck they want. I agree that the Burka ought to be rejected, but this rejection must come from the people who currently subscribe it.

[Revy]

I value the freedom of choice. What Sarkozy is missing is the burqa is not the problem, it is the force applied to women to wear it. Muslim women should be able to choose to go without hijab or a burqa, or wear either. Banning the burqa also means that women that feel most comfortable wearing it will not go out as much, it also means that Muslim women may feel attached to it even more as they will see it as resistance to Islamophobia.

[BobKKKindle$]

it is the force applied to women to wear it

Why do you assume that women who wear the burqa only do so because they are forced to? Do you think that women who wear miniskirts and tank tops are also forced to, or is this only true of Muslim women?

[Revy]

Why do you assume that women who wear the burqa only do so because they are forced to? Do you think that women who wear miniskirts and tank tops are also forced to, or is this only true of Muslim women?

I was speaking of only in those cases in which they are forced to....maybe I should have been clearer with that.

[Jazzratt]

Its not always easy for the oppressed to reject something.

Of course not. That doesn't mean it isn't the only way, appealing to the bourgeoisie to "proctect" people like this will never help.


If a handful of women rejected the burqa they could be dealt with by the dominating males.

Yeah, and what do you think the dominating males are going to do if "their" women aren't allowed to wear a burqa (here's a clue: they won't stop being dominating chauvanist dickheads just because of short sighted legislation like this)


However, if all women are forced to remove the burqa then the males too would accept it as its legislation.

As others have pointed out this will simply mean they will often force women to stay at home.


The Q'uran does not say women should be covered up and such.. its simply interpreted and imposed on women by radical males.

If it is imposed on women by men then why do you support a law which would punish the fucking woman? Sheesh.

[Coggeh]

It is the right of muslim women to choose not to wear it or to wear it . It is not the choice of the bourgeois government to infringe on religious personal freedom .Sarkozy's move is not a progressive one its just one more anti-Muslim piece of legislation in France and should be ultimately opposed by socialists .

That said , if it was the case that their was a movement by muslim women against the veil/burka in France then of course we would support that .

[ComradeOm]

It is not the choice of the bourgeois government to infringe on religious personal freedomDo you believe the bourgeois Third Republic was in the wrong when it waged its various campaigns against the Catholic Church?