Labour union involvement in the struggle

[Pogue]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/20/744789/-Labor-Unions-Join-the-Resistance-in-Iran

There's been a lot of speculation about the make-up of the protesters in Iran. Is it made up of just young people? Those only in Tehran? Only the ruling/middle class?
Now we get word that labor unions have joined the fray. Specifically, Al Giordano at The Field (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/) notes that both auto workers (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/iran-khodro-auto-workers-begin-work-slowdown-protest-regime) and bus workers (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/iranian-bus-workers-join-resistance) are taking action.


NLinStPaul's diary (http://nlinstpaul.dailykos.com/) :: ::
From the auto workers:

Strike in Iran Khodro:
We declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran.
Autoworker, Fellow Laborers (Laborer Friends): What we witness today, is an insult to the intelligence of the people, and disregard for their votes, the trampling of the principles of the Constitution by the government. It is our duty to join this people's movement.
We the workers of Iran Khodro, Thursday 28/3/88 in each working shift will stop working for half an hour to protest the suppression of students, workers, women, and the Constitution and declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran. The morning and afternoon shifts from 10 to 10:30. The night shift from 3 to 3:30.
Laborers of IranKhodor
And an excerpt from the bus workers (read the whole thing at The Field):

The fact that the demands of the vast majority of Iranian society go far beyond those of unions is obvious to all, and in the previous years we have emphasized that until the principle of the freedom to organize and to elect is not materialized, any talk of social freedom and labor union rights will be a farce.
Given these facts, the Autobus Workers Union places itself alongside all those who are offering themselves in the struggle to build a free and independent civic society. The union condemns any kind of suppression and threats.
To recognize labor-union and social rights in Iran, the international labor organizations have declared the Fifth of Tir (June 26) the international day of support for imprisoned Iranian workers as well as for the institution of unions in Iran. We want that this day be viewed as more than a day for the demands of labor unions to make it a day for human rights in Iran and to ask all our fellow workers to struggle for the trampled rights of the majority of the people of Iran.
And here's a bit of Al's analysis:

It's significant that the bus workers set a date, a week from now, for its International Day of Support for Imprisoned Iranian Workers. The call carries with it a prima facie acknowledgement that no matter what happens in the streets on Saturday, the party is just getting started.
I noticed the date right away when I read the release. As BooMan (http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/6/15/16659/8538) reminded us a few days ago, the 1979 revolution in Iran took over a year. I know that today (Saturday) is pivotal in how this resistance develops. But with the engagement of the unions and their organizing ability, I'd say it looks like "game on" for the long haul on this one.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/06/20/18603064.php

Thursday 18, the Vahed Syndicate of Bus Drivers issued a statement in support of the mass movement. This is significant since this is one of the most militant sections of the Iranian working class, having carried out a protracted struggle for the recognition of their trade union organisation despite brutal repression on the part of the Islamic Republic. The Vahed Syndicate had correctly stated before the elections that none of the candidates support the interests of the workers of Iran, but now, also correctly recognises “the magnificent demonstration of millions of people from all ages, genders, and national and religious minorities in Iran” and states clearly that “the Syndicate of Workers of Tehran and Suburbs Vahed Bus Company fully supports this movement of Iranian people to build a free and independent civil society and condemns any violence and oppression.” (The Field: Iran Bus Workers Join the Resistance (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuaWFuLWJ1cy13b3JrZXJzLWpvaW4tcmVzaXN0 YW5jZQ==))


But even more important is the action taken by workers at the massive Khodro car factory. The workers at this car company, the largest in the Middle East with nearly 100,000 workers, 30,000 of them in one single plant, have already taken strike action on Thur, 18, in support of the revolutionary movement of the people. In a short statement that we reproduce in full they say:

..

“We declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran.


“Autoworker, Fellow Laborers (Laborer Friends): What we witness today, is an insult to the intelligence of the people, and disregard for their votes, the trampling of the principles of the Constitution by the government. It is our duty to join this people's movement.


“We the workers of Iran Khodro, Thursday 28/3/88 in each working shift will stop working for half an hour to protest the suppression of students, workers, women, and the Constitution and declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran. The morning and afternoon shifts from 10 to 10:30. The night shift from 3 to 3:30.


“Laborers of Iran Khodro” (The Field: Iran Khodro Auto Workers Begin Work Slowdown to Protest the Regime (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuLWtob2Ryby1hdXRvLXdvcmtlcnMtYmVnaW4t d29yay1zbG93ZG93bi1wcm90ZXN0LXJlZ2ltZQ==))

..

These two statements and the strike action of Khodro workers are indeed extremely significant. These are two of the most advanced sections of the Iranian working class, at the vanguard of the new emerging trade union movement. They are expressing the thoughts of millions of other workers who have not yet put them in formal statements. As Alan Woods explained on Thursday,


..

“The working class has a power that can paralyze society and the state. Without its permission, not a light bulb shines, not a wheel turns, not a telephone rings. We refer to the general strike. The idea of a general strike has been raised but it has not been carried out. This is the key question!” (Iran: how can the movement go forward? (http://www.indybay.org/iran-how-can-movement-go-forward.htm))

..

The strike of the Khodro workers could be the beginning of a strike wave. In 1979 it was the strike of the oil workers which finally brought down the Shah. It is the duty of revolutionary Marxists to give full support to this movement and particularly to its most advanced layers, the organised working class.

[REDSOX]

But for only 30 mins two days ago. Where are the heavy duty boys like the Oil workers and where are the poor

[Pogue]

But for only 30 mins two days ago. Where are the heavy duty boys like the Oil workers and where are the poor

Probably too scared to come out because Iran's regime kills trade union activists and has killed hundreds of demonstrators already.

[Pogue]

Here is a source for the oppression of the Iranian working class which would explain why they are fearful of action, if you really need much more proof following the brutal repression of the anti-regime movement in Iran at the moment.

http://www.justiceforiranianworkers.org/

[REDSOX]

Or maybe because they support neither side in this filthy bourgeois faction fight.

[Pogue]

Or maybe because they support neither side in this filthy bourgeois faction fight.

I'm sure they support the protestors, ordinary people, and the working class, which has a right to reject both sides of this conflict, as many people are doing. I think you hilight your ignorance in that you assume everyone see's it as either one or the other of the two candidates and acts accordingly. Either way, your clearly dense.

[REDSOX]

More insults, deal with the facts. There are no proleterian elements in these protests Why do you think that is? Fear of repression i dont think so, could it be they do not care for any of these factions ahmadinijad or moussavi:confused:

[Pogue]

More insults, deal with the facts. There are no proleterian elements in these protests Why do you think that is? Fear of repression i dont think so, could it be they do not care for any of these factions ahmadinijad or moussavi:confused:

What facts? When have you ever given me any proof of your claims? Do you really think the working class have nothing to gain in opposition to Ahmadinejads regime? I don't understand what sort of socialist opposes people protesting against a dictator. I've given you evidence of labour unions backing this, and you say its still not proletarian because other unions havent backed it. Thats a non argument, idiot.

Once more, how is being opposed to this regime anti-working class? And do you refuse to recognise this is about more than just the elections for most people?

Clearly you don't, because your dense, as I've said.

[REDSOX]

I have made my position clear on these boards regarding the situation in Iran and i have no more to add. Please check out my posts on this matter and other posts who largely agree with me too:)

[Pogue]

I have made my position clear on these boards regarding the situation in Iran and i have no more to add. Please check out my posts on this matter and other posts who largely agree with me too:)

I've read enough tripe from reactionary wankers like you on this board recently to bother reading through more of your worthless crap.

[REDSOX]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Pogue]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Solid argument mate. Now fuck off from the boards.

[Revulero]

More insults, deal with the facts. There are no proleterian elements in these protests Why do you think that is? Fear of repression i dont think so, could it be they do not care for any of these factions ahmadinijad or moussavi:confused:

There sure is proletarian elements, dont you see working men and women protesting ? And even though there isn't much leftist influence that doesn't mean you should reject this whole protest; instead we as leftist should help make it leftist by spreading our ideas to all the workers out there.

[REDSOX]

Agreed we should be spreading working class ideas amongst the WORKING CLASS in Iran but not joining the middle class cia backed moussivi supporting rabble like Haywards and his reactionary fucking ilk would have us do

[Pogue]

Agreed we should be spreading working class ideas amongst the WORKING CLASS in Iran but not joining the middle class cia backed moussivi supporting rabble like Haywards and his reactionary fucking ilk would have us do

Right, so as socialists, we shouldn't support people who are on the streets demanding freedom in the face of an oppressive regime which is killing people for challenging it. :rolleyes: I think you've got the wrong tendency, my pedigree chum.

[REDSOX]

What do you mean by freedom Hayward bourgeois freedom which the moussavists want fuck em. I want proletarian freedom and rule

[Pogue]

What do you mean by freedom Hayward bourgeois freedom which the moussavists want fuck em. I want proletarian freedom and rule

So do I. Which is why I support these protests against the freedom that the regime has robbed from the people of Iran. This is about more than just the elections, and I'd hope this spontaneous action is the beginnings of a movement which can challenge the very economic and social system of the whole country. I see supporting militant people against an aggressive state as the natural extension of the desire for the Iranian people's freedom, sadly some people like you do not. No one thinks these protests are perfect, we jsut recognise which side to support, and that side is the people, the protestors, the working class, against an aggressive state. That is in no way the same as supporting Mousavi.

[Revulero]

Agreed we should be spreading working class ideas amongst the WORKING CLASS in Iran but not joining the middle class cia backed moussivi supporting rabble like Haywards and his reactionary fucking ilk would have us do

Wow how can you be so fucking ignorant. Why do you assume all the protesters are middle class. For a socialist you're quick at letting the workers down; isntead of looking for solutions you simply choose to ignore workers.

[REDSOX]

I support the working class mate in the factories,on the land, the poor who live in rotten conditions. They are my class brothers AND SISTERS not the moussavi demonstrators.

[Pogue]

I support the working class mate in the factories,on the land, the poor who live in rotten conditions. They are my class brothers not the moussavi demonstrators.

Once more, you ignorantly believe these demonstrators all support Mousavi, and assume they are not working class or poor. I've already linked to working class people supporting the movement yet you dispute this. Your clearly a bit ****ish.

[Revulero]

Yeah but not all workers are communists, thats why we should spread class conciousness instead of ignoring them and calling them moussavists.

[REDSOX]

I want empirical evidence that the working class are involved as a force in these demos, a token 30 minute demo by bus workers aint it. Where are the heavy duty boys Hayward Where are the

Oil workers
Steel workers
Farmers
The poor
etc
etc
etc

The workers silence apart from isolated workers is deafening and that should tell you something!!!!

[ls]

Peeps, rally behind ultra anti-imperialism and the Islamic state as Khomeini advocates otherwise you are a reactionary!

Remember comrades.. WE ARE ALL AHMADINEJAD! :rolleyes:

[Pogue]

I want empirical evidence that the working class are involved as a force in these demos, a token 30 minute demo by bus workers aint it. Where are the heavy duty boys Hayward Where are the

Oil workers
Steel workers
Farmers
The poor
etc
etc
etc

The workers silence apart from isolated workers is deafening and that should tell you something!!!!

Right, so I link you an example of some unions coming out in favour of the protests, explain to you that alot of unionists fear their lvies if they criticise the regimes, hilight the fact many protestors, including trade unionists, have already been killed in Iran, and you can't link me a single piece of evidence that a) The protestors ar enot working class and b) Any unions support the regime, and yet you still think this protest is 'middle class' and 'anti-worker'?

Your fucking stupid, as I've already proved.

[Pogue]

Thursday 18, the Vahed Syndicate of Bus Drivers issued a statement in support of the mass movement. This is significant since this is one of the most militant sections of the Iranian working class, having carried out a protracted struggle for the recognition of their trade union organisation despite brutal repression on the part of the Islamic Republic. The Vahed Syndicate had correctly stated before the elections that none of the candidates support the interests of the workers of Iran, but now, also correctly recognises “the magnificent demonstration of millions of people from all ages, genders, and national and religious minorities in Iran” and states clearly that “the Syndicate of Workers of Tehran and Suburbs Vahed Bus Company fully supports this movement of Iranian people to build a free and independent civil society and condemns any violence and oppression.” (The Field: Iran Bus Workers Join the Resistance (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuaWFuLWJ1cy13b3JrZXJzLWpvaW4tcmVzaXN0 YW5jZQ==))


But even more important is the action taken by workers at the massive Khodro car factory. The workers at this car company, the largest in the Middle East with nearly 100,000 workers, 30,000 of them in one single plant, have already taken strike action on Thur, 18, in support of the revolutionary movement of the people. In a short statement that we reproduce in full they say:

..

“We declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran.


“Autoworker, Fellow Laborers (Laborer Friends): What we witness today, is an insult to the intelligence of the people, and disregard for their votes, the trampling of the principles of the Constitution by the government. It is our duty to join this people's movement.


“We the workers of Iran Khodro, Thursday 28/3/88 in each working shift will stop working for half an hour to protest the suppression of students, workers, women, and the Constitution and declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran. The morning and afternoon shifts from 10 to 10:30. The night shift from 3 to 3:30.


“Laborers of Iran Khodro” (The Field: Iran Khodro Auto Workers Begin Work Slowdown to Protest the Regime (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuLWtob2Ryby1hdXRvLXdvcmtlcnMtYmVnaW4t d29yay1zbG93ZG93bi1wcm90ZXN0LXJlZ2ltZQ==))

..

These two statements and the strike action of Khodro workers are indeed extremely significant. These are two of the most advanced sections of the Iranian working class, at the vanguard of the new emerging trade union movement. They are expressing the thoughts of millions of other workers who have not yet put them in formal statements. As Alan Woods explained on Thursday,


..

“The working class has a power that can paralyze society and the state. Without its permission, not a light bulb shines, not a wheel turns, not a telephone rings. We refer to the general strike. The idea of a general strike has been raised but it has not been carried out. This is the key question!” (Iran: how can the movement go forward? (http://www.indybay.org/iran-how-can-movement-go-forward.htm))

..

The strike of the Khodro workers could be the beginning of a strike wave. In 1979 it was the strike of the oil workers which finally brought down the Shah. It is the duty of revolutionary Marxists to give full support to this movement and particularly to its most advanced layers, the organised working class.


http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/06/20/18603064.php

[REDSOX]

Oh no evidence from Hayward just some links which do not tell me shit. Where are the proletarian forces Hayward IE
The Industrial Working class
The peasentry
The poor

Answer

[Pogue]

Oh no evidence from Hayward just some links which do not tell me shit. Where are the proletarian forces Hayward IE
The Industrial Working class
The peasentry
The poor

Answer

We declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran.


“Autoworker, Fellow Laborers (Laborer Friends): What we witness today, is an insult to the intelligence of the people, and disregard for their votes, the trampling of the principles of the Constitution by the government. It is our duty to join this people's movement.


“We the workers of Iran Khodro, Thursday 28/3/88 in each working shift will stop working for half an hour to protest the suppression of students, workers, women, and the Constitution and declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran. The morning and afternoon shifts from 10 to 10:30. The night shift from 3 to 3:30.


“Laborers of Iran Khodro” (The Field: Iran Khodro Auto Workers Begin Work Slowdown to Protest the Regime (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuLWtob2Ryby1hdXRvLXdvcmtlcnMtYmVnaW4t d29yay1zbG93ZG93bi1wcm90ZXN0LXJlZ2ltZQ==))

..

These two statements and the strike action of Khodro workers are indeed extremely significant. These are two of the most advanced sections of the Iranian working class, at the vanguard of the new emerging trade union movement. They are expressing the thoughts of millions of other workers who have not yet put them in formal statements. As Alan Woods explained on Thursday,


..

“The working class has a power that can paralyze society and the state. Without its permission, not a light bulb shines, not a wheel turns, not a telephone rings. We refer to the general strike. The idea of a general strike has been raised but it has not been carried out. This is the key question!” (Iran: how can the movement go forward? (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.indybay.org/iran-how-can-movement-go-forward.htm))

..

The strike of the Khodro workers could be the beginning of a strike wave. In 1979 it was the strike of the oil workers which finally brought down the Shah. It is the duty of revolutionary Marxists to give full support to this movement and particularly to its most advanced layers, the organised working class.


http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...0/18603064.php (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/06/20/18603064.php)

[Revulero]

Lol. You're telling me that out of all those protesters none of them were workers. Fyi labor unions are harshly supressed by the government so there really isn't much of a voice to tell us who is a steel, oilworkers, and farmers. But to say that all of them are middle class must mean Iran has one of the wealthiest economies in the world with all of those middle class people. Wait.... I thought one of the reasons Iranians opposed Ahmadinejad was because of the economy was in poor shape, so why are there so many middle classmen?

[Pogue]

Once more I emphasise the fact two of the most militant sections of the working class have had a strike and declared support for the movement.

[ls]

REDSOX, are you saying automobile industry workers and bus drivers are petite-bourgeoisie? :rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Iran Khodro Auto Workers Begin Work Slowdown to Protest the Regime

Posted by Al Giordano (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/users/al-giordano) - June 18, 2009 at 6:32 pm By Al Giordano
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/userfiles/Iran-Khodro-record.jpg.jpeg
The workers of the Khodro automobile company in Iran today issued the following declaration (http://www.jonge-khabar.com/news/articlekhabar.php?id=60781) (translated for The Field from the original Farsi by Iraj Omidvar):

Strike in Iran Khodro:
We declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran.
Autoworker, Fellow Laborers (Laborer Friends): What we witness today, is an insult to the intelligence of the people, and disregard for their votes, the trampling of the principles of the Constitution by the government. It is our duty to join this people's movement.
We the workers of Iran Khodro, Thursday 28/3/88 in each working shift will stop working for half an hour to protest the suppression of students, workers, women, and the Constitution and declare our solidarity with the movement of the people of Iran. The morning and afternoon shifts from 10 to 10:30. The night shift from 3 to 3:30.
Laborers of IranKhodor
This announcement - to my knowledge this is the first place it appears in English anywhere - obtained by The Field by the auto workers of the largest automobile producer in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Khodro), is significant on multiple levels.
The obvious one is that once the workers begin to flex their muscles on the means of production, no illegitimate regime can continue standing.
Another is that it reveals the malicious lie spread by some that the Iranian resistance is an upper class phenomenon restricted to one or two regions for what it is: untrue.
Another is that it reminds us that the early resistance movement that led to the toppling of the Shah in the 1970s was not primarily theological, but secular and from the left. These workers, many of them, are the children and grandchildren of union organizers and members from that era. They remember.
If the aut o workers work slowdown and protest begins to spread to oil workers and other sectors of industrial labor, watch out. That is the one factor that could most hasten the fall of the regime.
Developing...
(Note: the photo above is a file photo of Iran Khodro workers, not taken today.)

Update I: Translations of original news reports in Farsi are starting to come in. The following are also by Iraj Omidvar...
The slogans carried by the people in photos published by BBC Persian (http://www.bbcpersian.com/) are as follows:
Epic of Chaff and Straws
Martyred brother, sleep in eternal paradise. I am awake in defense of your blood.
Congratulations, Brother, on Your Martyrdom
Imam Khomeini, You Are Not Here to See that They Stole Our Votes and Smeared Our Blood on Dirt
Democracy (image of leaves and branches growing from a baton)
Give Us Our Votes Back!!! (English)
Where Is My Vote? (English)
Silence Is the Loudest Scream
Election or Selection? (English)
Selections from the main news article:
BBC Persian sites Guardian as having estimated the crowds in the hundreds of thousands.
Mousavi wore black like most protesters
No sign of Basijis
Apparently a man talking to a Wall Street Journal reporter was approached during the interview by a paramilitary man, targeted the man's neck and killed him...

Update II: Here is what's on Pyknet (http://www.peiknet.com/) right now, translated by Iraj Omidvar for The Field:
MAIN HEADLINE: News from behind the coup curtain: Proposal for a referendum for accepting or rejecting the election results.
In some informed quarters in Iran, it is being said: H. Rafsanjani has informed A. Khamenei of the results of his consultations in Qom. Some have interpreted these consultations and their result as a call for assembling the Council of Experts behind closed door with some of the main figures of the Council. What has been divulged through hints about these consultations is that it has been suggested to the leader, that he for ending the current situation, without supporting any side, should support a national referendum to answer people's question of ""whether they accept or do not accept the election results." The results of this referendum will decide whether a new (presidential) election is needed or no. . . . .
ANOTHER HEADLINE:
NOTICE: It has been reported from the demonstration in remembrance of the victims of the people's protest against the coup of Khordad 22 in Tehran that Mir Hossein Mousavi, at the end of his short speech to the people, has said that in order to avoid conflict and violent activities, the Green Movement will not participate in tomorrow's Friday prayers in Tehran.
Update III: Here's a super-interesting report from Al Jazeera about the Ayatollah Khamenei and his "big speech" tomorrow that is intended to save his ass set things right:

The Supreme Leader has many options on the table, from annulling the election to announcing a violent crackdown on the resistance. Friday is going to be a very interesting day...
Update IV: Andrew Sullivan's got a gripping YouTube video (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/the-basij-in-isfahan.html) up from the city of Ifsahan, filmed from a rooftop in an apartment complex where Basij "revolutionary militias" are raiding homes. Here's a summary of what is being said by the video makers on the roof:


The man and woman speaking are seemingly family from this neighborhood. They are witnessing (and saying this on the video in disbelief) the attack of the basijis on people's homes, they are invading people's homes and shooting at them, chasing them up to their own roofs and shooting them down.
The woman speaking is trying to reach her mother but the phone calls don't go through. She is taking the video and crying at the injustice, saying "How can I take this video and just watch people getting killed inside their own homes." The man yells at the basijs or police "Shame on you heartless people, don't shoot at people" and the woman cries out "I hope you all die" and the man runs off for help presumably and asks her to keep filming.
It's difficult to understand the mentality of the regime's defenders. They don't believe it, but that level of brutality is what they are shilling for...
Update V: Iraj Omidvar translates from Entekhab News (http://www.entekhabnews.com/portal/index.php?news=6467) for The Field:


2:51 PM, 28 of Khordad 1388 (That's today our time)

According to measurements in the demonstrations by the supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi in the Azadi Square, at least three million people were present.

A representative of the Principalist faction (caucus) on the sides of yesterday's public meeting of the Majles (parliament) stated unofficially that according to the report submitted to the Majles from Mohamad Bagher Ghalibaf, mayor of Tehran, in the demonstrations by the supporters of of Mir Hossein Mousavi in the Azadi Square at least three million people were present.
Three million in a city of 7.5 million population. Think about it.

[REDSOX]

They are proletarians IS who struck for one hour in protest against the crackdown by one faction of the bourgeois against another. I hope that if the working class move into action against these clerical shits they wil not be diverted into supporting these neo liberal fucks but wil strike to advance their own proletarian interests. It is important that if the workers move into the arena they are not duped into supporting one faction or another as the bus workers appear to have been duped. The proletarians of Iran must act independently of moussavi and his middle class supporters as well as ahmadinejad

[Killfacer]

They are proletarians IS who struck for one hour in protest against the crackdown by one faction of the bourgeois against another. I hope that if the working class move into action against these clerical shits they wil not be diverted into supporting these neo liberal fucks but wil strike to advance their own proletarian interests. It is important that if the workers move into the arena they are not duped into supporting one faction or another as the bus workers appear to have been duped. The proletarians of Iran must act independently of moussavi and his middle class supporters as well as ahmadinejad

oh wait... i thought they weren't even involved?

[Pogue]

They are proletarians IS who struck for one hour in protest against the crackdown by one faction of the bourgeois against another. I hope that if the working class move into action against these clerical shits they wil not be diverted into supporting these neo liberal fucks but wil strike to advance their own proletarian interests. It is important that if the workers move into the arena they are not duped into supporting one faction or another as the bus workers appear to have been duped. The proletarians of Iran must act independently of moussavi and his middle class supporters as well as ahmadinejad

If you read it, you'd find the most advanced and organised section of the Iranian working class openly declared that they didn't support either of the candidates, instead backing the interests of the working class and the anti-regime movement.

[Pogue]

The Vahed Syndicate had correctly stated before the elections that none of the candidates support the interests of the workers of Iran, but now, also correctly recognises “the magnificent demonstration of millions of people from all ages, genders, and national and religious minorities in Iran” and states clearly that “the Syndicate of Workers of Tehran and Suburbs Vahed Bus Company fully supports this movement of Iranian people to build a free and independent civil society and condemns any violence and oppression.” (The Field: Iran Bus Workers Join the Resistance (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vbmFyY29zcGhlcmUubmFyY29uZXdzLmNvbS90aG VmaWVsZC9pcmFuaWFuLWJ1cy13b3JrZXJzLWpvaW4tcmVzaXN0 YW5jZQ==))

There we have it.

[REDSOX]

I want to see mass strike action in short a total strike against the twat moussavi the twat ahmadinejad and the whole fucking capitalist system. This strike must be against them and the system and should not be allowed to be controlled by moussavi or dinerjacket for their purposes oh and the CIA scum should stop interfering as well along with the EU bourgeoisie. Now comrades say they are beginning to move and they have posted some evidence for this which is out of date. What about now what are they doing. If they hate the regime then get out on strike throw off your chains throw off your fears and reject moussavi ahmadinejad the imperialists but dont keep moaning and groaning.

No to MOUSSAVI and his middle class fucks AND THE TORY CLERICS
No to LIBERAL DEMOCRACY
No to Imperialism
For proletarian revolution

[Pogue]

I want to see mass strike action in short a total strike against the twat moussavi the twat ahmadinejad and the whole fucking capitalist system. This strike must be against them and the system and should not be allowed to be controlled by moussavi or dinerjacket for their purposes oh and the CIA scum should stop interfering as well along with the EU bourgeoisie. Now comrades say they are beginning to move and they have posted some evidence for this which is out of date. What about now what are they doing. If they hate the regime then get out on strike throw off your chains throw off your fears and reject moussavi ahmadinejad the imperialists but dont keep moaning and groaning.

No to MOUSSAVI and his middle class fucks AND THE TORY CLERICS
No to LIBERAL DEMOCRACY
No to Imperialism
For proletarian revolution

Wait, so, I provide evidence of two of the best, most militant unions in Iran saying they are behind the movement, in which they conclusively say they support neither of the two candidates but the popular movement, and you still waffle on with your ridiculously ignorant rant? You're clearly clueless.

By the way, are the clerics members of the UK Conservative Party then? :lol:

Your a daft little shit aren't you? Just admit your wrong. See how you've changed your position? A few minutes ago it was 'PROVE TO ME THE WORKING CLASS BACK THIS', now your demanding some sort of revolutionary general strike to prove this movement is working class in nature? :lol:

[Revulero]

I want to see mass strike action in short a total strike against the twat moussavi the twat ahmadinejad and the whole fucking capitalist system. This strike must be against them and the system and should not be allowed to be controlled by moussavi or dinerjacket for their purposes oh and the CIA scum should stop interfering as well along with the EU bourgeoisie. Now comrades say they are beginning to move and they have posted some evidence for this which is out of date. What about now what are they doing. If they hate the regime then get out on strike throw off your chains throw off your fears and reject moussavi ahmadinejad the imperialists but dont keep moaning and groaning.

No to MOUSSAVI and his middle class fucks AND THE TORY CLERICS
No to LIBERAL DEMOCRACY
No to Imperialism
For proletarian revolution

But before there is proletarian revolution workers first must be tought class warfare and be aware of communism. So with out it you can screw having a prole revolution, thats probably why they support moussavi. Oh... but I forgot you dont support moussavists, so you must be against teaching them.

[Pogue]

Anyone who stills think this movement is about Mousavi or Ahmedinajad fell behind a long time ago.

[ls]

My my REDSOX, you sure know a lot about the Iranian situation, VIVA LA REVOLUTION eh, good boy *pats on head*, now fuck off.

[REDSOX]

Where are the heavy duty boys Hayward like the OIL workers. All we have so far is a 30 minute bus strike and a statement moaning and groaning about repression. I want to see mass action against the system not a token protest on the buses.

The truth is hayward is that you are a sad disturbed man who when he cannot get his way and put your arguments in a civilised manner resorts to gross insults and stalinist smears. In short you are a disgrace to these boards. You dont give a fuck about the people of iran let alone the working class all you want is liberal democracy for iran which moussavi wants.

Lie down mate keep taking the tablets and fuck off

[Pogue]

Where are the heavy duty boys Hayward like the OIL workers. All we have so far is a 30 minute bus strike and a statement moaning and groaning about repression. I want to see mass action against the system not a token protest on the buses.

The truth is hayward is that you are a sad disturbed man who when he cannot get his way and put your arguments in a civilised manner resorts to gross insults and stalinist smears. In short you are a disgrace to these boards. You dont give a fuck about the people of iran let alone the working class all you want is liberal democracy for iran which moussavi wants.

Lie down mate keep taking the tablets and fuck off

I'll basically take this as you admitting defeat.

You've moved from a position of saying there is no working class involvement in this struggle to saying its not big enough for you. I've linked you examples of the most militant unions taking action, and you have now recognised you are clearly wrong.

I have consistently upheld my support for a movement of the Iranian people, clearly backed by the working class through unions, which has as its goal the fight against oppression, whilst you have refused to support the movement, and apparently I don't care about Iranian people? Nice one :lol:

There is no time when I have said I support liberal democracy - stop triyng to desperately throw slurs at me, quite simply mate, everyone can see your wrong, which is why I've contiunally destroyed your argument to such a extent you make some deranged ramblings about my need to 'lie down, keep taking the tablets' whilst somehow simultaneously fucking off. How am I emant to lie down, take these non-existant tablets and fuck off all at once? I guess this is a contradiction in the same way a movement can not involve the working class whilst also having two of its most militant sections backing it :lol:

What on earth are these Stalinist smears? Deary me, you really are getting desperate :laugh: Look at my tendency tag and organisations, chum.

I don't see how someone with less than 100 posts can really tell one of the most active members of this board with alot of friends here to 'fuck off' or that I am a 'disgrace to these boards'. Look at my rep bar compared to yours mate, and how many thanks I have received in these threads compared to you, and then you'll see who needs to 'fuck off'.

[REDSOX]

Sweet dreams hayward. Dont worry i have asked yor mommy to buy you a sucker tommorow:laugh:

[Pogue]

Sweet dreams hayward. Dont worry i have asked yor mommy to buy you a sucker tommorow:laugh:

Erm, ok then.

[REDSOX]

:laugh:

[Killfacer]

some mod delete this please.

(FLAME)

[REDSOX]

What do you expect my reaction to be when this hayward character is going around on these boards posting insults against myself and other people. My temptation ws to ignore this sad cretin but because he persisted i gave him some back. This hayward is a bully and plenty of people have told me this privately. I dont take shit from no one especially from this bully boy. I have comprehensively destroyed this guys argument on the post and because he know's this he has insulted me with stalinist smears and personal attacks which i think is a disgrace to the reputation of these boards. This guy should be censored for his behaviour or even removed.

[Killfacer]

What do you expect my reaction to be when this hayward character is going around on these boards posting insults against myself and other people. My temptation ws to ignore this sad cretin but because he persisted i gave him some back. This hayward is a bully and plenty of people have told me this privately. I dont take shit from no one especially from this bully boy. I have comprehensively destroyed this guys argument on the post and because he know's this he has insulted me with stalinist smears and personal attacks which i think is a disgrace to the reputation of these boards. This guy should be censored for his behaviour or even removed.

You have destroyed nothing. People who call him a "bully" are people like Peader O'donnel (the ex member not the irish bloke), fucking vile racists.

I think you should take your own advice and piss off.

[REDSOX]

A defender of hayward no doubt not that there are many mind you

[ls]

Really? Have you seen all the people thanking his posts.

Who has thanked your posts I wonder, if Peader was here he would but oh wait..

[REDSOX]

What is this the i love Haywood brigade. Look i have made my points in a respectful manner and have been subject to smears about being a racist and personal insults about being a freak. These are disgraceful comments and i protest most strongly

[ls]

:crying:

[Revulero]

How can you criticize our dear leader :tt1:Haywood's Fingers:tt1:. Theres something wrong with you :crying:

[REDSOX]

Look i am new to these boards and i dont know if this Haywood is the Ian bone of revleft a man to be revered and respected but i will not be insulted and patronised by him nor should anyone else either. These boards are free speech zones but should not be free insult zones. I felt i took this chap on and beat him and he feels threatened by that i am sure but never mind. I do think though if i am going to be insulted and smeared in this way then i have no future on these boards.

[Killfacer]

LS, CJ and Haywood. Don't say a thing.

Listen mate im not trying to offend you, i just think your position on this subject is wrong.

Don't take any of the insults to seriously.

[REDSOX]

Look ok then I've got my position and Haywood and some others have got their position. I think we agree on the aims ie proletarian revolution in Iran but disagree on the means ie tactics but i think debate should be conducted passionately but not through insults and smears and that goes for ALL of us

[Davie zepeda]

Without organization there is no revolution and without revolution there is no organization. No party leads to bourgeoisie control which even with worker's as the head of the vanguard if there's no alternative to the current government then who will they resort to but foreign influences ending any possibility for a revolution based on any type of leftist tendency.

[Pogue]

Look i am new to these boards and i dont know if this Haywood is the Ian bone of revleft a man to be revered and respected but i will not be insulted and patronised by him nor should anyone else either. These boards are free speech zones but should not be free insult zones. I felt i took this chap on and beat him and he feels threatened by that i am sure but never mind. I do think though if i am going to be insulted and smeared in this way then i have no future on these boards.

I don't really think anyone on this board needs to be revered, I think everyone needs to be respected. I think you can call someone names and still respect them, personally. I don't care if I insulted you, its not as though it was all one way traffic.

These boards are free speech zones within certain limits, for example we don't tolerate racism, sexism, homophobia here. But if you voice an opinion, you have to expect other people to challenge it.

Now, you voiced the opinion that this struggle had no proletarian elements. I disputed this, and thought your attitude was an insult to the people of Iran who are dying by the dozens fighting an oppressive regime. From a purely intellectual standpoint too, I objected to you. You said there was no working class involvement - I claimed and sourced the claim that two of the most militant sections of the Iranian working class, the transport workers and the car factory workers, had declared support for this movement and had strikes in favour of it. This clearly proved you were wrong, which was seen in how your position changed from demanding to see vidence of any proletarian involvement to demanding to see oil worker involvement, showing you realised youh had been beaten in argument as you changed your argument to suit my point which contradicted your last one.

I don't think anyone could really say you beat me, and even if you did, I'm not threatened when I am proven wrong, because a) This is a forum and b) Often in life you are wrong, you just have to admit it. I think what you're doing is denying the obvious because you've got so emotionally involved in this argument that you don't want to concede defeat. Considering your last 4 posts were mocking posts telling me to lie down and take some tablets, or some variation on that theme, I feel its clear who was holding out with a solid argument to the end out of both of us. I proved a number of sources and articles showing evidence of the proletarian involvement, and you just kept calling me a Stalinist. Winning arguments and criticising people who make baseless claims is not synonymous with Stalinism, and such a claim is just stupid and clearly was your last ditch attempt to slur me when you realised that I was right all along and you were essentially wrong.

I don't even see this as an issue because revleft arguments never upset me. I'm not going to have some sort of resentment towards you on these boards from now on (primarily because I think I dealt with your arguments completely, for the benefit of not just yourself but the whole of the board, and anyone who doubted th eproletarian involvement in this struggle which does not represent only a choice between Mousavi and Ahmedinajad, as the unions made clear), so thats not really an issue, so you don't have to expect any animosity unless you warrant it.

So generally I'd say you should just not worry about it. Your new to the boards, you'll get in alot of arguments. I don't feel a need to carry on the proletarian argument with you because I've proven you wrong with sourced claims and everyone can see this, and if you continue to drag your mute point it will just lead to people thinking your being a bit silly.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I hope the People and Trade Unionis can finally bring some positive change in Iran. Hopefully without getting Mousavi to power, because I don't think he can be fully trusted.

[ls]

Fully Waki? He can't be trusted full stop.:tt2:

[REDSOX]

Haywood i will just say this, you have your argument and i have mine and nothing that you have said has convinced me one jot. I feel i have held my own quite easily and no doubt you think that you won your argument as well. As for the insults well i have been on the left wing of politics for a while and have received smears and abuse from many people but i can also give it as well. I dont take crap from no one and although i am often told never to wrestle with a chimney sweep because you will never come out clean sometimes in the heat of battle you cant help but wrestle.

[Pogue]

Haywood i will just say this, you have your argument and i have mine and nothing that you have said has convinced me one jot. I feel i have held my own quite easily and no doubt you think that you won your argument as well. As for the insults well i have been on the left wing of politics for a while and have received smears and abuse from many people but i can also give it as well. I dont take crap from no one and although i am often told never to wrestle with a chimney sweep because you will never come out clean sometimes in the heat of battle you cant help but wrestle.

Sorry mate, but you said there was no proletarian involvement in this struggle and I proved there was. By all intents and purposes, you lost the argument. You didn't hold your own, you just resorted to telling me to go lie down and take some pills. Theres no conceivable way in which that counts as 'winning' I'm afraid, in fact its probably the most open example of someone losing an argument ever.

[REDSOX]

I will continue to make my arguments on these boards until i think i am wrong. If i am wrong and the proletariat does get involved in a MASSIVE way then great nothing would please me more. Until then no more wrestling with the chimney sweep

[Pogue]

I will continue to make my arguments on these boards until i think i am wrong. If i am wrong and the proletariat does get involved in a MASSIVE way then great nothing would please me more. Until then no more wrestling with the chimney sweep

The thing is, you've just demonstrated how you were wrong, and beaten. Initially you demanded to see evidence that there was proletarian involvement in this struggle, and you claimed there wasn't - I proved there was, so now you changed your argument to demands to see 'MASSIVE' proletarian involvement.

Thus, you've renegaded on your previous position in response to my arguments, and so you lost, I'm afraid. It's clear for all to see.

[REDSOX]

I stand by my position that this is a faction fight

[Pogue]

I stand by my position that this is a faction fight

Then you remain ignorant of the point everyone is making - this struggle has evolved to mean more than just the elections, and from struggle against the ruling regime of a country, a popular people's movement emerges to challenge capitalism and the state. Your point is moot, as has been demonstrated to you.

[REDSOX]

Oh all right then

[Saorsa]

Your point is mute, as has been demonstrated to you.

*Moot ;-)

[Pogue]

*Moot ;-)

<3

[benhur]

The protests in Iran aren't of a revolutionary nature at all. They're Mousavi supporters, or why else would they protest during elections and NOT earlier? If they wanted to protest the theocratic regime and wanted freedom, human rights etc. etc., then they could've protested a long time ago.

The fact that they're doing it around elections is proof that these are middle class people favoring a neo-liberal Mousavi. These aren't poor, working class people interested in a revolution. In short, there's nothing progressive about this revolution. Middle class kids are having fun, that's all.

[Pogue]

The protests in Iran aren't of a revolutionary nature at all. They're Mousavi supporters, or why else would they protest during elections and NOT earlier? If they wanted to protest the theocratic regime and wanted freedom, human rights etc. etc., then they could've protested a long time ago.

The fact that they're doing it around elections is proof that these are middle class people favoring a neo-liberal Mousavi. These aren't poor, working class people interested in a revolution. In short, there's nothing progressive about this revolution. Middle class kids are having fun, that's all.

Have you not read any of this at all? Moments like elections, which lead to an interest in politics, create political tension, and when it was clear these elections were not fair and they promised more years of the oppressive rule of Ahmadinejad, the people got angry. Thats why they are out on the streets. There have been protests in the past - they are stifled by the regime - for example, trade unions are heavily repressed in Iran.

So your saying that the working class and poor don't care about elections? How ignorant of you. But I guess that fits into your general condesention towards working class people.

Since when, benhur, was there nothing progressive in demanding greater freedoms of speech, and fighting against a repressive government?

And to top it all off - you think they are having fun? You think the 150 people shot dead are having fun? Do you think the people getting acid poured onto them are having fun? Do you think those whom the secret police shot in dawn raids, or those the armed police thugs chucked into fires are having fun? Is that fun, benhur?

You absolutely disgust me, your so thick its unbelievable.

[Pogue]

Also, benhur, if there is no proletarian element to the movement, how come two of the most advanced sections of the working class and their militant unions, the Autoworkers union and the Bus workers union, have struck and issued messages in support of the movement? How would you explain that?

[Davie zepeda]

I will wait and see if you right i will congratulate you, but if your wrong i have nothing to say because a fool show's a fool. This situation has be created by the younger people of the Islamic society in many way's it could be similar to Mexico student uprising against there dictator but will it end up the same?

[Niccolò Rossi]

So your saying that the working class and poor don't care about elections? How ignorant of you. But I guess that fits into your general condesention towards working class people.

What is your point? The working class have no stake in the election. The choice between factions of the working class is no choice for the proletariat.


Since when, benhur, was there nothing progressive in demanding greater freedoms of speech, and fighting against a repressive government?

You are posing the question completely wrong. "Fighting against a repressive government" does not tell us anything, let alone allows us to say whether or not this is progressive. A movement which fight against something also always fights for something as well. It seems apparent to me that throughout this whole affair you have totally forgotten this.

[Pogue]

What is your point? The working class have no stake in the election. The choice between factions of the working class is no choice for the proletariat.

I hate the arogant condesention you display on this board. Do you really think I don't know that? Do you not think that perhaps this analysis is not restricted just to our left communists comrades? Have I ever suggested anything other than the view you just so helpfully explained to me?


You are posing the question completely wrong. "Fighting against a repressive government" does not tell us anything, let alone allows us to say whether or not this is progressive. A movement which fight against something also always fights for something as well. It seems apparent to me that throughout this whole affair you have totally forgotten this.

I think demanding a ridiculously high standard of coherent revolutionary thought amongst struggling people is just a left communist thing, and a greater symptom of the complete and utter irrelevance of the ideology as a result of this. This leads to skweded conclusions such as the one you have presented here.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I hate the arogant condesention you display on this board.

I don't think there is anything arrogant or condescending about my behaviour on this board. If you perceive it this way I apologise, it is completely unintended.


Do you really think I don't know that? Do you not think that perhaps this analysis is not restricted just to our left communists comrades? Have I ever suggested anything other than the view you just so helpfully explained to me?

I did not know you knew that. I am actually surprised that an 'anarchist' like yourself who (would have) supported the campaign of the Allies during WWII would not support the 'lesser evil' or the more 'progressive' bourgeois faction at election time. I know very well that proletarian positions (including those regarding elections and support for this or that ruling faction) are not the sole property of the communist left. I stated this basic political principle because it forms the basis of any discussion regarding elections. I don't see anything wrong with that.

More importantly however, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. I'll repeat it (less 'condescendingly'):


So your saying that the working class and poor don't care about elections? How ignorant of you. But I guess that fits into your general condesention towards working class people. What is the significance of this statement? What are you trying to say here?


I think demanding a ridiculously high standard of coherent revolutionary thought amongst struggling people is just a left communist thing,

I don't think it is a "left communist thing" to "a ridiculously high standard of coherent revolutionary thought amongst struggling people", nor did I ever do so anywhere in my post. So again, what is your point in saying this?


a greater symptom of the complete and utter irrelevance of the ideology as a result of this.

This gave me a giggle. Of course the communist left is tiny, they are the most militant and intransigent communist minorities secreted by the working class, there is no surprise here. Though, in case you haven't noticed, syndicalists too are "completely and utterly irrelevant" (correct me if I'm wrong here).


This leads to skweded conclusions such as the one you have presented here.

Rather than just stating my conclusions are skewed, why don't you explain in what way they are skewed, prove why they are skewed and provide us with the unskewed conclusions?

[MilitantWorker]

It is sad to see the condition the communist movement is in. I thought we were fighting for an international proletarian revolution, for a classless society.

Wake up and realize that the only "regime" that needs to be tackled in the Iranian situation, or in any political upsurge, is that of the bourgeoisie, of the captains of capital.

This is no time for dick measuring.

[MilitantWorker]

Haywood's Fingers: Get off the point that REDSOX doesn't believe there are workers involved in the protest. There is a difference between individual action by a single member of the working class, and MASS action by a majority of the Iranian working class organized into ORGANIC PROLETARIAN POLITICAL STRUCTURES. Which is clearly what REDSOX is calling for. Not isolated, reformist work slow downs by TWO factories!!

ALL I KNOW IS IF I WAS IN IRAN, I WOULD REALIZE THE IRANIAN PROLETARIAT HAS MILES TO GO BEFORE GAINING A REVOLUTIONARY COMMUNIST PERSPECTIVE, AND THEREFORE I WOULD BE PUSHING THIS CLASS PERSPECTIVE TO EVERYONE IN THE STREETS!

[Raúl Duke]

THEREFORE I WOULD BE PUSHING THIS CLASS PERSPECTIVE TO EVERYONE IN THE STREETS!

The thing is...I think we are all (or some) making an assumption...

What if right now there's some left-wing agitation and propaganda campaign occurring in Iran and we don't know about it yet?

We seem to be assuming that this isn't happening but it could be perhaps no media source (in a language other then Farsi and/or Arabic) or perhaps it just goes un-reported.

I think it's possible there are previously underground (or people who have hidden their affiliation) members of leftist groups in Iran that are probably doing that.