Lynx
20th June 2009, 13:47
Kiva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiva_(organization)) is an organization involved in the micro finance movement. Recently they added an MFI that works with applicants in the United States. This prompted a bit of controversy among supporters of this movement. An excerpt of the conversation is posted here, for anyone who is interested.
Yesterday's Team Messages
- Team CANADA: 14 messages, 10 authors
-- 1 of 14 --
From: Adam
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:08 AM
I almost can't believe the enormous amount of hostility many of you have towards these new US micro-loans. The poster below says, "...a terrible, devastating, near-sighted decision..." This isn't an accurate description of Kiva's actions; it's an accurate description of those of you who are turning your back on this important charity. The very idea that you would withhold your money from a person in need, simply because the beneficiary is an American, sickens me. The United States may be one of the richest countries in the world, but it also has a lot of income disparity. Canada has poor people too; would you deny a poor Canadian entrepreneur your money simply because he lives in a rich developed country? There are poor people all over this world, and all of them deserve support, regardless of where they live, what they look like, or what language they speak. All of your "terrible, devastating, and near-sighted" comments make me ashamed to be a part of this so-called Team CANADA.
-- 2 of 14 --
From: Tom
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:28 AM
Hi Adam. I'm the team captain for Pissed Off Kiva Lenders. Here is the point we are trying to make: Kiva made a drastic fundamental change. Specifically: By including borrowers from the USA it has undermined the very core of what made it so unique and special. Money lent to US borrowers is money that CANNOT be used for borrowers in the developing countries....which previously was the whole idea behind Kiva. Kiva's stated mission is to "alleviate poverty". Poverty is defined as: 'the state of having little or no money and few or no material possessions'. Does that sound more like the situation for US Kiva borrowers or borrowers from the Third World countries?
-- 3 of 14 --
From: Joanna
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:04 AM
I think what the pissed off team is trying to say is this, US poor people likely have access to some sort of social support and assistance programs, just like the welfare programs and other benefits the Government gives the poor and unemployed here in Canada. There is a difference in a poverty of this sort and the poverty faced by people in the Third World. There are plenty of Canadian and US charities and programs available for the poor in those countries unlike in the Third World where people literally strave to death and truly suffer with no assistance from anyone. I just returned from India, what I saw was abhorring the poverty there is absolutely astonishing and I wonder why Kiva does not concertrate more efforts on helping people there. Kiva really should focus on the Third World this is where we want to help most, and where we need to share our wealth. The reason I joined this group and Kiva was to help truly poor people in the Third World, not poor people in the 1st World who already have lots of assistance. This does not make any of us lesser people it just shows that we really care about the poorest of the poor who truly suffer day to day. The babies I saw in India had nothing they ran around naked, people living in shaks and under tarp, let's focus on true poverty and keep focusing our efforts in the Third World.
-- 4 of 14 --
From: Ashlyn
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM
As a proud Canadian living in the US, I must speak to the semantic bull. Prejudice has no place among people who claim to support a mission as noble as alleviating poverty. The 49th parallel is not a sacred dividing line between altruism and greed.
Kiva came into being because a few people who happen to live in the US used their highly marketable skills to do something other than help themselves... They have done nothing to prevent you from deciding who deserves help and giving to people that really need it.
The energy you are wasting being pissed off could have been spent creating a group that was specifically focused on the 3rd world. Far more inspiring...
-- 5 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Well said..thats the spirit of a true Canadian. Thank you Ashlyn
Coral Brinck..(another Proud Canadian)
-- 6 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Ashlyn
It seems to me that it is quite human to spend energy have an emotional reaction to something. Maybe that is not inspiring to you, but I think it's pretty human. Also, many of these people are in fact having a reaction and then moving on to myc4.com or other orgs. This isn't a question of prejudice or bull.
I value your opinion even I dont' agree with it, and I dont' see any need to devalue your opinion by giving it rude names.
Anita
-- 7 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:00 AM
You know what is going to make me leave Kiva. Everyone bickering and my email being clogged up with too many messages about an issue that is not going to change. If you dont like what they did...then LEAVE KIVA and leave those of us who are here in the true spirit of helping to CHOOSE who we want to help. Too each there own..can we move on now and concentrate on helping people instead of this?
-- 8 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Coral
I am capable of having a discussion AND helping. I contributed to the email discussion which ended up in your inbox, and I funded another African team right after, and now I am replying. You can also use your delete button for incoming Kiva notifications. It doesn't take more than 30 seconds to delete dozens of them.
I think my spirit of helping is true. I feel offended by your idea that my spirit is untrue. I think this is a good discussion.
Anita
-- 9 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:53 AM
It s my belief that the TRUE spirit of helping knows no borders and does not judge anyone who feels they might need some help to stay afloat. Gettting a loan from a bank these days is NOT easy..jobs are scarce and interest rates are ridiculous.
So if there is another avenue available..then why not? I think that people really need to look around at their own comunities / towns or cities and REALLY see that poverty is everywhere. And although it may not be as extreme as 3rd world countries I would have to imagine that it was not always that way .I wonder how they got that way? Perhaps it was in part by people not looking after their own freinds and neighbours and paying attention to the country they actually live in.
Have you ever seen the Tent city in Vancouver...I was there just over a year agoand there was over 5000 homeless people and the numbers are rising. What about them? What about the poor people in your own community? Do they not deserve to be helped because they live in a particular part of the world that is richer than the rest?
Again poverty is everywhere..and its only going to get worse. So help who you can when you can without resenting those people who provide the avenue to do so.
-- 10 of 14 --
From: Bill
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Sorry but I'm really tired of the whole issue. I'm going to stop receiving any more e-mails but will continue to support KIVA as much as I can afford.
-- 11 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Dear Coral
I don't resent those who want to help in whatever they want to help. I wish them well. Where did you gather that there was resentment?
I work hard in my own community. I do it all the time. I am only too aware of the issues that face homeless people in Vancouver. It is quite different from the issues that face the poor living under tarps on the sidewalk under my apartment in Calcutta whom I chatted with in broken Bengali in 2006 when I visited there. Their numbers are very different, and their reasons for being homeless are quite different.
Definition of poverty is relative. I invite you to come with me and see for yourself in India in November this year. And, I do a LOT in my community. So I think I"m "true" spirited enough.
My opinion of the recent changes by KIVA is based on KIVA mission statement which you can see on their homepage. As someone else said, this dilutes their "brand". Kiva IS a brand. As well, microloans are very small loans.
Wishing you well,
Anita
-- 12 of 14 --
From: Dave
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:16 PM
The issue is not about the spirit of giving, but the nature of this service. Kiva is established as a micro lender between the first and third world. The US loans, while perhaps still noble, are not in keeping with the original and stated intent of the service. People are within their right to speak out when an organization seemingly changes its philosophy.
Truth is the people we are lending to in other countries are people who would have strong credit etc if their country had a banking system. I mean no offense when I say this ...but it exaggeration to put the "banking crisis" in America or even "poverty" in America on par with the situation in 3rd world countries.
Most of these 3rd world communities have no banking infrastructure, no civil or financial infrastructure and women especially do not always have access to the full rights of citizenship.
The #1 medical issue facing people in North America who are poor is obesity. Clearly our "poor" are substantially richer than in the 3rd world.
$10,000 lent to an American blocks the dollar funding of 20+ entrepreneurs for whom this service was established to help. I just think it would be respectful to acknowledge the valid concern from the people who are not supportive of this decision. Kiva is the organization that has changed what it claimed to be about.
You may well be comfortable lending to Americans in this manner, or think Kiva doing so is appropriate, but I think it would be respectful to at least acknowledge how Kiva is changing course from the basis by which many lenders got involved in the first place.
-- 13 of 14 --
From: Jamie
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:42 PM
This is direct from the ABOUT section:
"Kiva's mission is to connect people through lending for the sake of alleviating poverty.
Kiva is the world's first person-to-person micro-lending website, empowering individuals to lend directly to unique entrepreneurs around the globe."
While some are reading more into that than is written, them adding a US MFI to their list does not in any way contravene their stated aims.
That being said, I'm not impressed with that particular MFI, and I think anyone who is in the same boat should write an e-mail to Kiva's management and complain about that. There do seem to be frivolous loans involved, and I don't see any reason why anyone should provide collateral free loans to those people - especially when the $ could do more good elsewhere. Let them use their credit cards, or go to a bank, or pawn something they have, or go to friends and family that might be able to fund the $3000 or $10,000 they're looking for. Now some of them may be newly legalized immigrants with no credit history, no assets, or might have been through bankruptcy. Some people might be willing to be the hand up to those people, but I just can't be that person because I do see how much more effective my $ would be elsewhere. But I think they have a right to be on this site, in case someone else feels differently.
Kiva takes our opinions of their MFI's seriously - so that's the right way to get your voice heard, contact Kiva directly and let them know what you think, while you ignore those US-based entrepreneurs and keep giving to the people that make sense based on your values - MANY MANY of which are still here waiting to be funded. And the US MFI is a trial program - which means that if there's enough negative comments, it may be aborted, or better yet moved to a secondary site or a different part of the site.
I do agree with many of you that:
- Microfinance is needed most by entrepreneurs without access to credit due to lack of banking systems or lack of collateral
- That small amounts go a lot farther in 3rd world countries
- That the impact of loaning to a 3rd world entrepreneur is far more bang for your buck and helps more people
But at the end of the day, this is a market-based solution - so put your money where your mouth is and fund the people here that deserve it. Those people aren't Kiva - Kiva just helps to facilitate US reaching THEM. Wherever THEY are. But you have the right and obligation to choose wisely.
-- 14 of 14 --
From: Marilyn
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Dave, Thank you for your well-spoken comment. Indeed, Kiva has chosen a new direction with the US loans.
I just had a look at the first page of the loans page, and found an American in the exact same situation as me (a tech employee with a fair income, trying to start an e-business on the side) asking for $7K. I find this upsetting, as I would never request loans through Kiva because there are many people in greater need than mine.
While I don't like seeing someone in my circumstances looking for loans through Kiva, I still love what Kiva is about, and intend to stick around. The best way to show your disapproval is to not lend to the US loans. Kiva know what is going on, and will most certainly get the point if the American loans don't get filled.
As an aside, I'd like to share some knowledge with you that I gathered when I spent a month in Peru last December. It is, quite literally, easier to find a Scotiabank in Lima, Peru than it is to find one in Vancouver. Scotiabank is the third largest bank in Peru after acquiring Peruvian banks including Banco del Trabajo.
--------------
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Yesterday's Team Messages
- Team CANADA: 14 messages, 10 authors
-- 1 of 14 --
From: Adam
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:08 AM
I almost can't believe the enormous amount of hostility many of you have towards these new US micro-loans. The poster below says, "...a terrible, devastating, near-sighted decision..." This isn't an accurate description of Kiva's actions; it's an accurate description of those of you who are turning your back on this important charity. The very idea that you would withhold your money from a person in need, simply because the beneficiary is an American, sickens me. The United States may be one of the richest countries in the world, but it also has a lot of income disparity. Canada has poor people too; would you deny a poor Canadian entrepreneur your money simply because he lives in a rich developed country? There are poor people all over this world, and all of them deserve support, regardless of where they live, what they look like, or what language they speak. All of your "terrible, devastating, and near-sighted" comments make me ashamed to be a part of this so-called Team CANADA.
-- 2 of 14 --
From: Tom
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:28 AM
Hi Adam. I'm the team captain for Pissed Off Kiva Lenders. Here is the point we are trying to make: Kiva made a drastic fundamental change. Specifically: By including borrowers from the USA it has undermined the very core of what made it so unique and special. Money lent to US borrowers is money that CANNOT be used for borrowers in the developing countries....which previously was the whole idea behind Kiva. Kiva's stated mission is to "alleviate poverty". Poverty is defined as: 'the state of having little or no money and few or no material possessions'. Does that sound more like the situation for US Kiva borrowers or borrowers from the Third World countries?
-- 3 of 14 --
From: Joanna
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:04 AM
I think what the pissed off team is trying to say is this, US poor people likely have access to some sort of social support and assistance programs, just like the welfare programs and other benefits the Government gives the poor and unemployed here in Canada. There is a difference in a poverty of this sort and the poverty faced by people in the Third World. There are plenty of Canadian and US charities and programs available for the poor in those countries unlike in the Third World where people literally strave to death and truly suffer with no assistance from anyone. I just returned from India, what I saw was abhorring the poverty there is absolutely astonishing and I wonder why Kiva does not concertrate more efforts on helping people there. Kiva really should focus on the Third World this is where we want to help most, and where we need to share our wealth. The reason I joined this group and Kiva was to help truly poor people in the Third World, not poor people in the 1st World who already have lots of assistance. This does not make any of us lesser people it just shows that we really care about the poorest of the poor who truly suffer day to day. The babies I saw in India had nothing they ran around naked, people living in shaks and under tarp, let's focus on true poverty and keep focusing our efforts in the Third World.
-- 4 of 14 --
From: Ashlyn
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM
As a proud Canadian living in the US, I must speak to the semantic bull. Prejudice has no place among people who claim to support a mission as noble as alleviating poverty. The 49th parallel is not a sacred dividing line between altruism and greed.
Kiva came into being because a few people who happen to live in the US used their highly marketable skills to do something other than help themselves... They have done nothing to prevent you from deciding who deserves help and giving to people that really need it.
The energy you are wasting being pissed off could have been spent creating a group that was specifically focused on the 3rd world. Far more inspiring...
-- 5 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Well said..thats the spirit of a true Canadian. Thank you Ashlyn
Coral Brinck..(another Proud Canadian)
-- 6 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Ashlyn
It seems to me that it is quite human to spend energy have an emotional reaction to something. Maybe that is not inspiring to you, but I think it's pretty human. Also, many of these people are in fact having a reaction and then moving on to myc4.com or other orgs. This isn't a question of prejudice or bull.
I value your opinion even I dont' agree with it, and I dont' see any need to devalue your opinion by giving it rude names.
Anita
-- 7 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:00 AM
You know what is going to make me leave Kiva. Everyone bickering and my email being clogged up with too many messages about an issue that is not going to change. If you dont like what they did...then LEAVE KIVA and leave those of us who are here in the true spirit of helping to CHOOSE who we want to help. Too each there own..can we move on now and concentrate on helping people instead of this?
-- 8 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Coral
I am capable of having a discussion AND helping. I contributed to the email discussion which ended up in your inbox, and I funded another African team right after, and now I am replying. You can also use your delete button for incoming Kiva notifications. It doesn't take more than 30 seconds to delete dozens of them.
I think my spirit of helping is true. I feel offended by your idea that my spirit is untrue. I think this is a good discussion.
Anita
-- 9 of 14 --
From: Coral
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:53 AM
It s my belief that the TRUE spirit of helping knows no borders and does not judge anyone who feels they might need some help to stay afloat. Gettting a loan from a bank these days is NOT easy..jobs are scarce and interest rates are ridiculous.
So if there is another avenue available..then why not? I think that people really need to look around at their own comunities / towns or cities and REALLY see that poverty is everywhere. And although it may not be as extreme as 3rd world countries I would have to imagine that it was not always that way .I wonder how they got that way? Perhaps it was in part by people not looking after their own freinds and neighbours and paying attention to the country they actually live in.
Have you ever seen the Tent city in Vancouver...I was there just over a year agoand there was over 5000 homeless people and the numbers are rising. What about them? What about the poor people in your own community? Do they not deserve to be helped because they live in a particular part of the world that is richer than the rest?
Again poverty is everywhere..and its only going to get worse. So help who you can when you can without resenting those people who provide the avenue to do so.
-- 10 of 14 --
From: Bill
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Sorry but I'm really tired of the whole issue. I'm going to stop receiving any more e-mails but will continue to support KIVA as much as I can afford.
-- 11 of 14 --
From: Naimi-Roy Family
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Dear Coral
I don't resent those who want to help in whatever they want to help. I wish them well. Where did you gather that there was resentment?
I work hard in my own community. I do it all the time. I am only too aware of the issues that face homeless people in Vancouver. It is quite different from the issues that face the poor living under tarps on the sidewalk under my apartment in Calcutta whom I chatted with in broken Bengali in 2006 when I visited there. Their numbers are very different, and their reasons for being homeless are quite different.
Definition of poverty is relative. I invite you to come with me and see for yourself in India in November this year. And, I do a LOT in my community. So I think I"m "true" spirited enough.
My opinion of the recent changes by KIVA is based on KIVA mission statement which you can see on their homepage. As someone else said, this dilutes their "brand". Kiva IS a brand. As well, microloans are very small loans.
Wishing you well,
Anita
-- 12 of 14 --
From: Dave
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:16 PM
The issue is not about the spirit of giving, but the nature of this service. Kiva is established as a micro lender between the first and third world. The US loans, while perhaps still noble, are not in keeping with the original and stated intent of the service. People are within their right to speak out when an organization seemingly changes its philosophy.
Truth is the people we are lending to in other countries are people who would have strong credit etc if their country had a banking system. I mean no offense when I say this ...but it exaggeration to put the "banking crisis" in America or even "poverty" in America on par with the situation in 3rd world countries.
Most of these 3rd world communities have no banking infrastructure, no civil or financial infrastructure and women especially do not always have access to the full rights of citizenship.
The #1 medical issue facing people in North America who are poor is obesity. Clearly our "poor" are substantially richer than in the 3rd world.
$10,000 lent to an American blocks the dollar funding of 20+ entrepreneurs for whom this service was established to help. I just think it would be respectful to acknowledge the valid concern from the people who are not supportive of this decision. Kiva is the organization that has changed what it claimed to be about.
You may well be comfortable lending to Americans in this manner, or think Kiva doing so is appropriate, but I think it would be respectful to at least acknowledge how Kiva is changing course from the basis by which many lenders got involved in the first place.
-- 13 of 14 --
From: Jamie
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:42 PM
This is direct from the ABOUT section:
"Kiva's mission is to connect people through lending for the sake of alleviating poverty.
Kiva is the world's first person-to-person micro-lending website, empowering individuals to lend directly to unique entrepreneurs around the globe."
While some are reading more into that than is written, them adding a US MFI to their list does not in any way contravene their stated aims.
That being said, I'm not impressed with that particular MFI, and I think anyone who is in the same boat should write an e-mail to Kiva's management and complain about that. There do seem to be frivolous loans involved, and I don't see any reason why anyone should provide collateral free loans to those people - especially when the $ could do more good elsewhere. Let them use their credit cards, or go to a bank, or pawn something they have, or go to friends and family that might be able to fund the $3000 or $10,000 they're looking for. Now some of them may be newly legalized immigrants with no credit history, no assets, or might have been through bankruptcy. Some people might be willing to be the hand up to those people, but I just can't be that person because I do see how much more effective my $ would be elsewhere. But I think they have a right to be on this site, in case someone else feels differently.
Kiva takes our opinions of their MFI's seriously - so that's the right way to get your voice heard, contact Kiva directly and let them know what you think, while you ignore those US-based entrepreneurs and keep giving to the people that make sense based on your values - MANY MANY of which are still here waiting to be funded. And the US MFI is a trial program - which means that if there's enough negative comments, it may be aborted, or better yet moved to a secondary site or a different part of the site.
I do agree with many of you that:
- Microfinance is needed most by entrepreneurs without access to credit due to lack of banking systems or lack of collateral
- That small amounts go a lot farther in 3rd world countries
- That the impact of loaning to a 3rd world entrepreneur is far more bang for your buck and helps more people
But at the end of the day, this is a market-based solution - so put your money where your mouth is and fund the people here that deserve it. Those people aren't Kiva - Kiva just helps to facilitate US reaching THEM. Wherever THEY are. But you have the right and obligation to choose wisely.
-- 14 of 14 --
From: Marilyn
Date: Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Dave, Thank you for your well-spoken comment. Indeed, Kiva has chosen a new direction with the US loans.
I just had a look at the first page of the loans page, and found an American in the exact same situation as me (a tech employee with a fair income, trying to start an e-business on the side) asking for $7K. I find this upsetting, as I would never request loans through Kiva because there are many people in greater need than mine.
While I don't like seeing someone in my circumstances looking for loans through Kiva, I still love what Kiva is about, and intend to stick around. The best way to show your disapproval is to not lend to the US loans. Kiva know what is going on, and will most certainly get the point if the American loans don't get filled.
As an aside, I'd like to share some knowledge with you that I gathered when I spent a month in Peru last December. It is, quite literally, easier to find a Scotiabank in Lima, Peru than it is to find one in Vancouver. Scotiabank is the third largest bank in Peru after acquiring Peruvian banks including Banco del Trabajo.
--------------
You received this message because you are subscribed to receive a daily digest of emails for the Kiva lending teams you belong to.