scottish and welsh nationalism

[reddevil]

what do people on here think about this? personally i am opposed. i think it would have a dreadful effect on the socialist movement in England as the departure of our left wing neighbours will almost certainly mean a Tory victory. Furthermore, i am not convinced that Plaid Cymru and SNP are genuinely concerned with social justice so much as personal gain. They may be to the left of Labour but they have the same big business connections as all other major parties, so much so that Salmond and co were dubbed the "tartan tories". I also don't think the situation of these two countries can be compared to that of Ireland or Quebec. The union is certainly not equally beneficial, with even the northern English getting a raw deal when compared with their southern counterparts. This needs to be addressed. However, i am not of the opinion that the relationship between the countries constitutes a colonial one. Although such a relationship did once take place, it was in the distant past and it is rare that a Scottish or Welsh person should be denied opportunities because of their origins or denied the right to their own culture in the modern age, whereas in the six counties this still persists. Lastly, I am well aware that "Great Britain" is an artificial nation with a bloody history. However, the same could be said of the USA, Germany or any other recently unified collection of states. this does not mean that a breakup is necessary or even desirable.

[redarmyfaction38]

what do people on here think about this? personally i am opposed. i think it would have a dreadful effect on the socialist movement in England as the departure of our left wing neighbours will almost certainly mean a Tory victory. Furthermore, i am not convinced that Plaid Cymru and SNP are genuinely concerned with social justice so much as personal gain. They may be to the left of Labour but they have the same big business connections as all other major parties, so much so that Salmond and co were dubbed the "tartan tories". I also don't think the situation of these two countries can be compared to that of Ireland or Quebec. The union is certainly not equally beneficial, with even the northern English getting a raw deal when compared with their southern counterparts. This needs to be addressed. However, i am not of the opinion that the relationship between the countries constitutes a colonial one. Although such a relationship did once take place, it was in the distant past and it is rare that a Scottish or Welsh person should be denied opportunities because of their origins or denied the right to their own culture in the modern age, whereas in the six counties this still persists. Lastly, I am well aware that "Great Britain" is an artificial nation with a bloody history. However, the same could be said of the USA, Germany or any other recently unified collection of states. this does not mean that a breakup is necessary or even desirable.

i don't think any of the constituent nations of the uk could stand alone, it is only the promise of a false independence as part of a capitalist european superstate that makes the idea viable.
imo.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I'm a Scot myself and when I was a bit younger I was all about independence. In the end it does not matter if we are independent from England if the bourgeois parliament in our country and of the other countries in this world remain in place. The working class has no country therefore we must strive to liberate people not only from imperialist colonial rulers but from Capitalism, worldwide.

[reddevil]

I'm a Scot myself and when I was a bit younger I was all about independence. In the end it does not matter if we are independent from England if the bourgeois parliament in our country and of the other countries in this world remain in place. The working class has no country therefore we must strive to liberate people not only from imperialist colonial rulers but from Capitalism, worldwide.
when you were younger? an older poster, what a rarity!

[Revy]

what about devolution?

[Dr Mindbender]

i am a lukewarm supporter of scottish/welsh nationalism. Here is why-

1-Scotland and Wales represent higher concentrations of leftist sentiment, due to their relative detachment from the tory dominated home counties. I feel it would be better to have a leftist dominated independent scotland and wales than a right of centre uk.

2-Scottish and Welsh taxpayers have to pay for the upkeep of their neighbours to the south and west of their border. I think they would see more benefit to their money if it was kept locally.

3-the disintegration of the UK would alienate and render obsolete the unionist claim over northern ireland. Without any credible claim, England would have no choice but to cede NI back to the republic of ireland.

4-i think from a cultural perspective, there is little common denominator between the 4 countries. Even from a nationalist perspective there is little argument for mantaining it.

[Revy]

i am a lukewarm supporter of scottish/welsh nationalism. Here is why-

1-Scotland and Wales represent higher concentrations of leftist sentiment, due to their relative detachment from the tory dominated home counties. I feel it would be better to have a leftist dominated independent scotland and wales than a right of centre uk.

2-Scottish and Welsh taxpayers have to pay for the upkeep of their neighbours to the south and west of their border. I think they would see more benefit to their money if it was kept locally.

3-the disintegration of the UK would alienate and render obsolete the unionist claim over northern ireland. Without any credible claim, England would have no choice but to cede NI back to the republic of ireland.

4-i think from a cultural perspective, there is little common denominator between the 4 countries. Even from a nationalist perspective there is little argument for mantaining it.

I think all the socialist parties in the UK agree with a united Ireland, but isn't there a lot more division on the issue of Scotland and Wales?

And there is support on the radical left for the creation of a "Socialist Republic of Great Britain"....this seems like a good solution, I believe many Irish may support Scotland and Wales because of Celtic solidarity, though.

Feel free to disagree, that's just my take on it. I don't think we can have a universal opinion of all independence movements, we should look at each one and ask what is tactically and politically advantageous.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think all the socialist parties in the UK agree with a united Ireland, but isn't there a lot more division on the issue of Scotland and Wales?

I am convinced the only way to achieve a united ireland is the dismantlement of the UK.

The unionist mandate is too well entrenched in the 6 counties, and since the unionist sentiment mainly eminates from the Ulster-scots connection with scotland's participation in the union the continuation of the 6 county statelet would be irrelevant.



And there is support on the radical left for the creation of a "Socialist Republic of Great Britain"....this seems like a good solution, I believe many Irish may support Scotland and Wales because of Celtic solidarity, though.
There is no way in hell the people of the ROI would agree to a return to british rule, too much blood was spilt getting independence in the first place.



Feel free to disagree, that's just my take on it. I don't think we can have a universal opinion of all independence movements, we should look at each one and ask what is tactically and politically advantageous.

I dont think from a progressive viewpoint, or for many ways a reactionary one there are many advantages from the union.

[Killfacer]

Walsh tax payers pay for English stuff? I thought it was the other way round...

Considering the huge percentage of the UK's national income comes from London, how come this is the case?

[Revy]

I am convinced the only way to achieve a united ireland is the dismantlement of the UK.

The unionist mandate is too well entrenched in the 6 counties, and since the unionist sentiment mainly eminates from the Ulster-scots connection with scotland's participation in the union the continuation of the 6 county statelet would be irrelevant.


There is no way in hell the people of the ROI would agree to a return to british rule, too much blood was spilt getting independence in the first place.



I dont think from a progressive viewpoint, or for many ways a reactionary one there are many advantages from the union.

No...by "Socialist Republic of Great Britain" I meant a socialist republic consisting of England, Scotland and Wales, with a neighboring independent, united and free Ireland. As I understand it, Great Britain does not refer to Northern Ireland.

You may be right though, indeed the real successes on the Scottish socialist left were made by parties which supported Scottish independence.

[Dr Mindbender]

Walsh tax payers pay for English stuff? I thought it was the other way round...



Considering the mass inequality between the south of england and the rest of the country, i think it's safe to establish 'who's eating all the pies'.



Considering the huge percentage of the UK's national income comes from London, how come this is the case?

North sea (scottish) oil?

[PRC-UTE]

Less Scottish soldiers to kill for British imperialism. :)

[Bitter Ashes]

Walsh tax payers pay for English stuff? I thought it was the other way round...

Considering the huge percentage of the UK's national income goes to London, how come this is the case?
Fixed

Life expectancy for even most deprived parts of London is 73. In parts of Glasgow, it's 54.
(sources)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ealth.politics (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jan/21/health.politics)
http://www.lho.org.uk/Download/Publi...s_Report_4.pdf (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.lho.org.uk/Download/Public/8811/1/Health_Inequalities_Report_4.pdf)

Lack of goverment help for the North means that Northerners and Scotts are expected to die with thier boots on before pension age. Low income has forced the North into poor diets and poor standards of living means that alchohol and drug abuse is high. Coupled with the relativly low NHS funding (that has been shown to result in hospitals killing thier patients to meet impossible targets) and inability to access private treatment is it any wonder that we die so young?

The social inequalities are very clear and those outside of London's roads paved with gold, suffer daily as a result with suicide rates substaintially higher as many are unable to cope with the poverty inflicted upon them by the greedy South.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/hsq0806.pdf


During the period 1991 to 2004 the rate for
men in Scotland was 50 per cent higher than the rate for the UK
as a whole. For women, the rate in Scotland was almost double
that for the UK as a whole.


So, London is certainly no "great giver". Goverment aid is centred disproportionaly on the South East, where thier biggest, tax-dodging, city, party funders live.

On the subject at hand. I dont think it'd make a blind bit of difference if we severed ties right now. Maybe we'd save a little of the tax we pipe into London every year, but it's not as if we're losing anything from thier allegeged "contributions". Meanwhile, any form of nationism, wherever it is, only creates further divisions and we should be seeking to make conditions across the UK homogenous, not find ways to validate London bieng stinking rich while the rest of Great Britain rots.

[Killfacer]

I'm didn't say anything about life expectancies. I just though London produced the majority of the UK's national income.

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm didn't say anything about life expectancies. I just though London produced the majority of the UK's national income.
My point is that income stays in London, or more specifically, the City of London, along with income from everywhere else in the UK.

[Killfacer]

My point is that income stays in London, or more specifically, the City of London, along with income from everywhere else in the UK.

Yeah okay, that's not what i was asking.