A Statistic

[Bud Struggle]

One in four South African men questioned in a survey said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack.
The study, by the country's Medical Research Council, also found three out of four who admitted rape had attacked for the first time during their teens.

It said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm

I wonder how something like this would be handled in a Anarchistic society. It's the "culture" of the place to rape. There may be laws against rape, but they obviously no enforced. I don't think this has much to do with economics.

[Jack]

Shoot them in the fucking head. Once you rape or molest you give up your right to justice.

[#FF0000]

Shoot them in the fucking head. Once you rape or molest you give up your right to justice.

That's actually not how it'd be handled, but I can't expect you to know, as you're not an anarchist.

[Jack]

That's actually not how it'd be handled, but I can't expect you to know, as you're not an anarchist.

I am an anarchist....

[Bilan]

I wonder how something like this would be handled in a Anarchistic society. It's the "culture" of the place to rape. There may be laws against rape, but they obviously no enforced. I don't think this has much to do with economics.

Cultures, for one, are not static, they develop, and are fostered by the internal workings of a society - structures of power, and so on. In a patriarchal society, one in which men hold so much power, this sort of thing is a by-product.
To presume that in an "anarchistic" society, the previous culture would be inherited and remain is presumptuous and incorrect. A total overthrow of the means of production, political institutions and social structures recreates culture.

[#FF0000]

I am an anarchist....

You've a very skewed view of what anarchism is.

[danyboy27]

Cultures, for one, are not static, they develop, and are fostered by the internal workings of a society - structures of power, and so on. In a patriarchal society, one in which men hold so much power, this sort of thing is a by-product.
To presume that in an "anarchistic" society, the previous culture would be inherited and remain is presumptuous and incorrect. A total overthrow of the means of production, political institutions and social structures recreates culture.

but somehow, if the change in society recreate culture, it would mean that it will eventually clash with the older one, and i think that what tomk was wondering, what would be the result of this sort of clash, how we would handle this diffuculty.

i think its a valid question, to think that beccause we wiped out the old system, everything would be totally okay without any kind of difficulty is completely utopic.

it is verry important i think to raise issues about potential difficulties a new emerging society would eventually encounter, we cant just burry our head in the sand and saying to ourselves that its gonna be kitten unicorn and bunnies the day we throw the old system to the gardbage.

Personally, i think re-education and social awareness is a good combination, but it would be also important to go after multiple case offender, some case cant just be solved. i dont quite know how this would be handeled in a communist society, somehow i think that some rape case would be prematurely ended by summary execution. from a purely strict democratic point of view, if the whole town want to have the rapist dead, it would make sense he is executed, but somehow i think it would be wrong to execute the fellow without a fair trial.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Capitalism puts a price on sex in that it can be bought and "stolen". It is a unnatural and alienated way that modern societies view sex with particularly brutal results for women. Additionally, rape is often committed as a way to "take power" from others - this is seen in prisons and war zones.

In an anarchist/communist society, women would have many more positions of authority and responsibility so overall attitudes would be different - women would not be seen as weak after leading mass strikes and being part of worker militias (if necessary). Also sex would probably be more liberated and so people would not rape because of confused feelings about their own sexuality or out of a desire to hold power over other individuals.

Even though I think there would probably be less instances of rape, all violent crimes would probably still exist to some extent. How would rape be dealt with specifically in an anarchist/communist society? Well that would have to be taken up by people at that time, I can not tell people of a different society how they might deal with something. What do I think? First of all if the rapist was some kind of mental case/compulsive type person, then they could get treatment which would also keep them from harming other people. Second, people could get together and have patrols and if the victims were female, then the community might vote to form an armed community patrol that prominently includes women.

[Bud Struggle]

people could get together and have patrols and if the victims were female, then the community might vote to form an armed community patrol that prominently includes women.

They could have all that stuff now and don't do that. The point is THE CULTURE permits the rape. Men think it's fine and (to me it seems) the men don't mind if their daughters and sisters and wives are being raped because the men are happily raping other people's daughters and sisters and wives.

I have no idea what the women of that country think--the article doesn't go into it, but it seems they are powerless to do anything about it.

FWIW, I think I have thought of a semi-capitalistic way to helping with the situation -- extending micro loans to women entrepreneurs in that region. Help the underprivileged women attain economic power parity with men and may be the abuse will stop -- because the women won't have to depend on men and won't have to put up with it any more. Economic parity will eventually lead to political and cultural parity. Pure charity in that region doesn't sit well with me because there have been recent studies/reports on how "too much charity" hurts the Africans as that brought about over-dependency on Western aid. Extending micro loans, albeit at below-market rates in this case, doesn't offend my capitalistic nature too much. Targeting loans to "women" would probably make me a sexist in the strict sense of the term... but what the heck, nothing is perfect.

[BobKKKindle$]

There may be laws against rape, but they obviously no enforced
Why would there be no enforcement? A communist society is not synonymous with there being no laws, and no means to enforce those laws. When communists talk about the state "withering away" we simply mean that the state no longer functions as an organic of class oppression - it is transformed into society regulating itself. Think of Rousseau's general assembly as a rough model of how that might operate.


FWIW, I think I have thought of a semi-capitalistic way to helping with the situation -- extending micro loans to women entrepreneurs in that regionYou're right in saying that economic inequality is part of the problem. It's recognized that throughout the world women are most likely to be raped by people they know, such as friends and even family members, instead of strangers, which conflicts with what many people imagine when they think about how rapes take place - a woman walking alone on the streets at night and suddenly being assaulted by someone she's never met before and will never meet again after being raped. The fact that rapists are often people who have a personal relationship with the women they rape means that it is often difficult for a woman to break their ties with that person, especially if they are in a position of economic dependence, as if often the case. However, it is silly to suggest that microloans are going to allow significant numbers of women to attain financial independence because it does not address the issue that lies at the heart of patriarchal oppression under capitalism - the domestic division of labour. The reason that so many women lack financial independence, either because they do not work at all, or because the only type of work they are able to do is part-time work, which offers low pay and inadequate opportunities for promotion, is the widespread perception that women have an obligation to perform tasks in the home, such as caring for young children, preparing meals for the rest of the family unit, doing washing, and all the other things which fall within the domestic sphere, and contrast with the more public role that men are able to play. If this is accepted then the question of how we should go about dealing with rape and the other manifestations of patriarchy can be understood as a more specific dilemma - how can we eliminate the domestic division of labour. Whilst women pressuring men to do their share of the household tasks, so that women can seek advancement outside the home is a partial solution and something that can probably be attained by some women under capitalism, the ultimate solution is the socialization of tasks that currently take place inside isolated and inefficient nuclear families - so that, instead of every household cooking its own food, people would eat in collective canteens, with people who enjoy cooking preparing food for everyone else, thereby eliminating the need for women to spend hours of each day preparing a meal that will probably not be very tasty or nutritious. The solution that you propose is necessarily partial because it does not solve the problem of the domestic division of labour and ignores the fact that you cannot have a capitalist society in which each and every individual is a small entrepreneur.

[danyboy27]

i think micro-loan is good, but it have to be coupled with something else to make it viable.

For exemple, some researcher in britain discovered a way to make a cheap combustible with banana peel, verry simple method that any person below 18 in a third world country could do without problem. mix the 2 and you have an endless supply of energy that will help the vilager to cook and stay warn during cold seasons.

[Jack]

You've a very skewed view of what anarchism is.

Does anarchism mean letting rapists go unpunished?

[Pogue]

I'm with Jack somewhat in this one. I don't think being an Anarchist automatically excludes a desire to kill scumbags, obviously it'd need to be mandated and be done through a proper trial.

[Bud Struggle]

Does anarchism mean letting rapists go unpunished?

The interesting thing is that the "culture" in South Africa has no problem with having rapists go unpunished. It just seems to be no big deal. Where you come from (and me, I was born and raised in Naugatuck) if there was anything close to that number of women being raped there would be dragnets and commissions, all sort of state officials would be working on the problem, there would be nightly news reports and the national media would be doing shows on the subject on a regular basis. There would be vigalante murders of rapists by the fathers and brothers of the violated women. That's our culture--though not perfect by any means, but to us rape is abhorrant.

In South Africa rape is just business as usual. Who is there that might "punish" rapists under Communism? If indeed the "Soviet" of the place under Communism seems to look the other way. If the individual Anarchists of the place are made up of mostly rapists themselves.

Would you invade South Africa from Connecticut and set up YOUR Anarchist culture for these people?

[Pogue]

The interesting thing is that the "culture" in South Africa has no problem with having rapists go unpunished. It just seems to be no big deal. Where you come from (and me, I was born and raised in Naugatuck) if there was anything close to that number of women being raped there would be dragnets and commissions, all sort of state officials would be working on the problem, there would be nightly news reports and the national media would be doing shows on the subject on a regular basis. There would be vigalante murders of rapists by the fathers and brothers of the violated women. That's our culture--though not perfect by any means, but to us rape is abhorrant.

In South Africa rape is just business as usual. Who is there that might "punish" rapists under Communism? If indeed the "Soviet" of the place under Communism seems to look the other way. If the individual Anarchists of the place are made up of mostly rapists themselves.

Would you invade South Africa from Connecticut and set up YOUR Anarchist culture for these people?

This is such shit. There is no such thing as a national culture which is accepted widely by all the people in the same area.

You've twisted these statistics. Yeh, they are worrying, but I also don't know how credible they are, and...

How the fuck does 25% of a poll saying it has no problem with rape make it a culture where rape is OK? Surely that means 75% think rape is unnacceptable.

[danyboy27]

This is such shit. There is no such thing as a national culture which is accepted widely by all the people in the same area.

You've twisted these statistics. Yeh, they are worrying, but I also don't know how credible they are, and...

How the fuck does 25% of a poll saying it has no problem with rape make it a culture where rape is OK? Surely that means 75% think rape is unnacceptable.

25% is a LOT.

[Pogue]

25% is a LOT.

Yeh, which is why I said its worrying. But its not the majority so it can't represent the culture as a whole. I also doubt how valid the research actually was.

16% of the Dutch electorate voted for a far right wing party. Thats alot. Does that mean Holland has a 'national culture' of fascism?

[Bud Struggle]

This is such shit. There is no such thing as a national culture which is accepted widely by all the people in the same area.

You've twisted these statistics. Yeh, they are worrying, but I also don't know how credible they are, and...

How the fuck does 25% of a poll saying it has no problem with rape make it a culture where rape is OK? Surely that means 75% think rape is unnacceptable.

You are avoiding answering the question.

As to your questioning the statistic here's the actual report by Medical Research Council of South Africa:

http://www.mrc.ac.za/gender/men_exec_smry.pdf


The article also said that lots of the rapist 25% actually do multiple rapes--so that makes the amounts of rapes much higher than the statistic of actual rapists. Here's the stats from the report:


Rape prevalence

Rape of a woman or girl had been perpetrated by 27.6% of the men interviewed and
4.6% of men had raped in the past year. Rape of a current or ex-girlfriend was
disclosed by 14.3% of men. Since many men had raped more than once, rape of a
woman or girl who was not a partner was actually more often reported than rape of
partners. In all only 4.6% of men had raped a partner and not raped a woman who was
not a partner (i.e. an acquaintance or stranger). 11.7% of men had raped an
acquaintance or stranger (but not a partner) and 9.7% had raped both. In total, 8.9%
said they had raped with one or more other perpetrators when a woman didn’t consent
to sex, was forced or when she was too drunk to stop them. Rape of men and boys
was also reported, 2.9% said they had done this. Attempted rape was reported by
16.8% of men and 5.3% of men said they had done so in the previous 12 months.

Patterns of rape

Nearly one in two of the men who raped (46.3%) said they had raped more than one
woman or girl. In all, 23.2% of men said they had raped 2-3 women, 8.4% had raped
4-5 women, 7.1% said they had raped 6-10 and 7.7% said they had raped more than
10 women or girls.
Asked about their age at the first time they had forced a woman or girl into sex, 9.8%
said they were under 10 years old, 16.4% were 10-14 years old, 46.5% were 15-19
years old, 18.6% were 20-24 years old, 6.9% were 25-29 years and 1.9% were 30 or
older.

As I pointed out in the US and I'm sure in England statistics like these would bring down governments.

Not so much in South Africa.

But again all that's of little matter--you are avoiding the question. ;)

[Pogue]

You are avoiding answering the question.

As to your questioning the statistic here's the actual report by Medical Research Council of South Africa:

http://www.mrc.ac.za/gender/men_exec_smry.pdf


The article also said that lots of the rapist 25% actually do multiple rapes--so that makes the amounts of rapes much higher than the statistic of actual rapists. Here's the stats from the report:


Rape prevalence
Rape of a woman or girl had been perpetrated by 27.6% of the men interviewed and
4.6% of men had raped in the past year. Rape of a current or ex-girlfriend was
disclosed by 14.3% of men. Since many men had raped more than once, rape of a
woman or girl who was not a partner was actually more often reported than rape of
partners. In all only 4.6% of men had raped a partner and not raped a woman who was
not a partner (i.e. an acquaintance or stranger). 11.7% of men had raped an
acquaintance or stranger (but not a partner) and 9.7% had raped both. In total, 8.9%
said they had raped with one or more other perpetrators when a woman didn’t consent
to sex, was forced or when she was too drunk to stop them. Rape of men and boys
was also reported, 2.9% said they had done this. Attempted rape was reported by
16.8% of men and 5.3% of men said they had done so in the previous 12 months.
Patterns of rape
Nearly one in two of the men who raped (46.3%) said they had raped more than one
woman or girl. In all, 23.2% of men said they had raped 2-3 women, 8.4% had raped
4-5 women, 7.1% said they had raped 6-10 and 7.7% said they had raped more than
10 women or girls.
Asked about their age at the first time they had forced a woman or girl into sex, 9.8%
said they were under 10 years old, 16.4% were 10-14 years old, 46.5% were 15-19
years old, 18.6% were 20-24 years old, 6.9% were 25-29 years and 1.9% were 30 or
older.

As I pointed out in the US and I'm sure in England statistics like these would bring down governments.

Not so much in South Africa.

But again all that's of little matter--you are avoiding the question. ;)

I haven't really because I never intended to deal with it, its hardly a tough question - regardless, rape is the ultimate abuse of someone's freedoms and thus we are entirely justified in preventing some one from doing it. Such a responsibility would fall to the 75% of people in South Africa who oppose rape, I'd imagine, in a communist society, if this problem even still existed then, which I doubt it would.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Question: what, to communists, makes rape any worse than regular assault? Assuming it doesn't get her pregnant or give her an STD that is.

[Bud Struggle]

I haven't really because I never intended to deal with it, its hardly a tough question - regardless, rape is the ultimate abuse of someone's freedoms and thus we are entirely justified in preventing some one from doing it. Such a responsibility would fall to the 75% of people in South Africa who oppose rape, I'd imagine, in a communist society, if this problem even still existed then, which I doubt it would.

It falls to the 75% now and it has been pretty well noted--they do little to nothing about it. What makes you think they will react differently under Anarchism? The rapes are cultural--not economic.

But anyway, what if in a future Anarchistic world the people in the geographic area once known as South Africa FAIL to do anything about the situation? What does the broader Anarchist community do about the rapes?

[Pogue]

It falls to the 75% now and it has been pretty well noted--they do little to nothing about it. What makes you think they will react differently under Anarchism? The rapes are cultural--not economic.

But anyway, what if in a future Anarchistic world the people in the geographic area once known as South Africa FAIL to do anything about the situation? What does the broader Anarchist community do about the rapes?

If rapes are cultural why is it not that everyone is a rapist in South Africa? As I said, 75% are opposed to it. You've taken a minority view and generalised it.

I highly doubt the people will not do anything about rape if the issue was raised properly. But in such a unique circumstance, we'd defend the freedom of the person not to be raped.

[LinusRed]

Wow... 25% of the population! That's pretty fucking messed.

[Jack]

Question: what, to communists, makes rape any worse than regular assault? Assuming it doesn't get her pregnant or give her an STD that is.

That is the most fucked up comment. It's a good thing you're resticted.

[GPDP]

Question: what, to communists, makes rape any worse than regular assault? Assuming it doesn't get her pregnant or give her an STD that is.

What the fuck kind of a question is this?

Do you not see the trait of male dominance over women in rape? The humiliation and complete violation of the rape victim's dignity?

Rape goes well beyond simple assault. It's not even a communist issue. It's one about recognizing the fundamental nature of rape as a method of gaining complete power over another person. It's more than just physical abuse. It's the abuse of a woman's complete faculty.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

What the fuck kind of a question is this?

Do you not see the trait of male dominance over women in rape? The humiliation and complete violation of the rape victim's dignity?

Rape goes well beyond simple assault. It's not even a communist issue. It's one about recognizing the fundamental nature of rape as a method of gaining complete power over another person. It's more than just physical abuse. It's the abuse of a woman's complete faculty.
If it's about rape as a form of male dominance, then would you consider "regular" (that is, non-sexual) domestic abuse, like a man hitting a female spouse or verbally abusing her, as being a severe as rape? Assault can be about gaining power over another person, but you are right in that regular assault does not involve such dominance. But I think things like domestic abuse, particularly on a continued basis, does.

Also, do communists not view male-on-male rape as being as severe a crime as rape of a woman by a man?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

That is the most fucked up comment. It's a good thing you're resticted.
Calm down there. It's only a question. Are you going to shoot me as well?

Personally I think rape is just about the most horrible crime a person can commit. Indeed part of it is the dominance thing. But I think a lot of people draw part of their abhorrence of rape from a kind of moralistic view relating to sexuality and its sanctity. But do communists share that view? I dunno, maybe I'm not even making sense. If I'm not, don't shoot me. It wouldn't be the first question on here to ever not make sense.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Actually you know what, forget it. It was a stupid question. It was asked honestly and with a view to discussing and learning, but in retrospect it was stupid because there's no point in trying to quantify the horrificness of horrific crimes, and because it's a highly inflammatory issue anyway. So yeah, sorry, never mind.

I'm really tired, I always do or say something I regret when I'm this tired.

[GPDP]

First off, quit it with the "do communists..." bit. You sound like a complete ass. I already told you this isn't an explicitly communist issue.

Secondly, I, personally, would consider rape to be the most severe form of abuse, because like I said, it completely violates every aspect of a woman's identity - physically, emotionally, and sexually. Through rape, a man reduces a woman into nothing but a sexual plaything of his own.

And yes, I would consider male-on-male rape to be about as severe as male-on-female rape, though the later, it must be added, is the more accepted form due to our patriarchal society, which makes it all the more condemnable. But surely the same principle applies. A man, when raped, is also reduced to another man's sexual plaything.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Why don't you quit calling people asses for asking questions. I was really just questioning whether there might be a moralistic aspect to considering a woman to have a sexual identity separate to her physical and emotional identity, to use your own words.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Question: what, to communists, makes rape any worse than regular assault? Assuming it doesn't get her pregnant or give her an STD that is. What makes someone forcing you to eat a pile of their crap at the point of a gun any worse than someone taking your ipod at gunpoint? As others have pointed to, it's the humiliation of this kind of assault and the personal nature of it that makes it so bad.

Don't mean to pile-on.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

What makes someone forcing you to eat a pile of their crap at the point of a gun any worse than someone taking your ipod at gunpoint? As others have pointed to, it's the humiliation of this kind of assault and the personal nature of it that makes it so bad.

Don't mean to pile-on.
What you did fits so beautifully within the definition of piling on that I find to hard to accept that you didn't mean to do it.

Anyway, surely if the humiliation is the key then it goes more to the emotional identity than any sexual identity, which is what GPDP was suggesting.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What you did fits so beautifully within the definition of piling on that I find to hard to accept that you didn't mean to do it.Uh, how about I read your post and didn't see all the responses on the 2nd page. I went back and added the "pile-on" comment after I read all the other responses.

Take the apology before I regret it for fux sake!

I don't know what you mean by emotional-identity, but women and men both get raped and in each case it is a violation about holding power over someone else. I think it's more like child molestation than regular assault because someone uses their power against the will of someone who may not be able to retaliate because of the relationship between the rapist and victim.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Fine, I'll take it, begrudgingly!

[Bud Struggle]

Fine, I'll take it, begrudgingly!

I remember when you used to take things Burgundydly. :rolleyes::lol:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You've a very skewed view of what anarchism is.

Really? I find it funny that you would say this, considering that historically speaking anarchists have rarely shied away from killing when they felt it was necessary.

[Bud Struggle]

You're right in saying that economic inequality is part of the problem. It's recognized that throughout the world women are most likely to be raped by people they know, such as friends and even family members, instead of strangers, which conflicts with what many people imagine when they think about how rapes take place - a woman walking alone on the streets at night and suddenly being assaulted by someone she's never met before and will never meet again after being raped. The fact that rapists are often people who have a personal relationship with the women they rape means that it is often difficult for a woman to break their ties with that person, especially if they are in a position of economic dependence, as if often the case. However, it is silly to suggest that microloans are going to allow significant numbers of women to attain financial independence because it does not address the issue that lies at the heart of patriarchal oppression under capitalism - the domestic division of labour. The reason that so many women lack financial independence, either because they do not work at all, or because the only type of work they are able to do is part-time work, which offers low pay and inadequate opportunities for promotion, is the widespread perception that women have an obligation to perform tasks in the home, such as caring for young children, preparing meals for the rest of the family unit, doing washing, and all the other things which fall within the domestic sphere, and contrast with the more public role that men are able to play. If this is accepted then the question of how we should go about dealing with rape and the other manifestations of patriarchy can be understood as a more specific dilemma - how can we eliminate the domestic division of labour. Whilst women pressuring men to do their share of the household tasks, so that women can seek advancement outside the home is a partial solution and something that can probably be attained by some women under capitalism, the ultimate solution is the socialization of tasks that currently take place inside isolated and inefficient nuclear families - so that, instead of every household cooking its own food, people would eat in collective canteens, with people who enjoy cooking preparing food for everyone else, thereby eliminating the need for women to spend hours of each day preparing a meal that will probably not be very tasty or nutritious. The solution that you propose is necessarily partial because it does not solve the problem of the domestic division of labour and ignores the fact that you cannot have a capitalist society in which each and every individual is a small entrepreneur.

Let me just say--generally good post here. You agree with me--some outside action needs to be taken. I (as a Capitalist) think it should be economic. And in a Feudal economy a "king" might say by fiat something political--and you as a Communist might say through an amalgum of things a union of both the the political and the economic.

That still leaves the Anarchist--with nothing to say about rape in an outlying province. I see this as a serious flaw in Anarchism.

[RGacky3]

If South Africa becomes Anarchist, chances are that "culture" your talking about, would be done away with naturally, cultures are created out of theire enviroment.

The first question you have to ask is what is the enviroment that that culture came out of, then will anarchism change that enviroment, chances are it will.

The same question comes up as far as street gang culture, how will an anarchist society deal with street gang culture, well, it will get rid of the conditions that create that culture.


That still leaves the Anarchist--with nothing to say about rape in an outlying province. I see this as a serious flaw in Anarchism.

First of all, no system has anything to say about rape in an outlying province. Also that chance, or flaw does'nt justify innate authority, which is the worse alternative.