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Kassad
18th June 2009, 23:16
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What's at stake in Iran?
Thursday, June 18, 2009
By: Brian Becker

How the U.S. government views the street protests
The large street protests in Iran following the June 12 presidential elections are seen by U.S. imperialism as a potential political opening


A primary objective of Washington is to overthrow the Iranian government and replace it with a proxy regime. But that is a very difficult task given the evolved social and political reality that has changed Iran in the three decades since the overthrow of the U.S.-backed monarchy in 1979.

Following the election, the campaign of Mir-Hossein Mousavi Khameneh immediately declared that they lost because of voter fraud. It has been repeated over and over again in the western media that there was no way that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad could have won by such a wide margin.

Washington’s agenda, however, is not motivated by any actual evidence of fraud, but its own imperatives in the region.

Three days after the election, the U.S. State Department took the unprecedented step of "requesting" that the social networking site Twitter not proceed with a scheduled maintenance of its global network, which would have cut off service at the moment that Mousavi supporters were using Twitter to mobilize for a scheduled street protest in Tehran. The bosses at Twitter quickly complied with the State Department request.
This was not the first time that Twitter collaborated with the U.S. government. In May, the Obama administration flew the Twitter executives into Iraq to assist the occupation forces there.

On June 17, the Iranian government accused the United States and the Obama administration of "intolerable" meddling in its internal affairs following the June 12 Iranian presidential election. Following the third straight day of large street protests, the Iranian government asserted that the United States was fueling the post-election street protests.
The street protests in Tehran are not caused by an intervention from foreign powers. But the United States and other western countries are sympathetic to and encouraging the protests, and see in them an opportunity for advancing their regional objectives. Moreover, the U.S. government has been spending tens of millions of dollars to destabilize the Ahmadinejad government. On May 22, 2007, ABC News reported that "President Bush signed a ‘nonlethal presidential finding’ that puts into motion a CIA plan that reportedly includes a coordinated campaign of propaganda, disinformation and manipulation of Iran's currency and international financial transactions." There is no evidence that Obama rescinded that "presidential finding" or the covert destabilization operation.

The class character of the protest movement must be examined by progressive forces, just as it is by the imperialist establishment. The fact that the movement is dominated by the middle classes and the more affluent, especially in Tehran but in other cities as well, is considered to be of decisive important in the calculations of imperialism. Washington knows that this movement has genuine energy and initiative and is also linked to the most pro-western wing of the clerical establishment—those who favor capitalist globalization, privatization and a reorientation of Iran’s foreign policy.

Iran in the eyes of the U.S. imperialist establishment

Until the 1979 revolution destroyed the regime of the Shah, Iran was the principal partner of the United States in the Middle East with the exception of Israel.
The so-called Nixon Doctrine outlined a strategy for control and policing of the Middle East that was premised on a U.S.-Israeli-Iranian axis. Of course, this was a partnership based on hegemonic control by one of the three "partners."

Washington "lost" Iran totally when the monarchy shattered in 1979. U.S. officials and military forces were expelled. The vast CIA spy posts that were located along the 1,000 mile-long Iranian-Soviet border were shut down.

The people’s revolution upset all of the U.S. institutional networks of control and led to a major shift in U.S. foreign policy. The centrality of Iran to U.S. regional domination in the oil-rich Gulf region prior to 1979 cannot be overestimated.

More than anything, the U.S. government feared that Iran’s "Islamic revolution" would soon sweep away the Saudi monarchy as well. Saudi Arabia was the largest producer of oil in the region and a U.S. puppet that survived only with the support of its patron in Washington.
Intent on weakening—or at least diverting—the Iranian revolution, U.S. imperialism encouraged the Saddam Hussein-led government in Iraq to invade Iran in 1980. An eight-year-long war between Iran and Iraq was decisive in weakening both governments. The Pentagon and CIA provided overt and covert finances, weapons and intelligence to both sides.

Immediate U.S. objectives

Like the administrations that preceded it, the George W. Bush administration sought to destroy the governments in Iraq and Iran, replace them with proxy regimes and thus achieve U.S. hegemony over the Persian/Arabian Gulf area. This is the long term goal of the current administration as well. The global ambitions of U.S. imperialism, especially the focused goal of domination over the oil-rich Middle East, do not change one iota when the Democrats replace the Republicans in the White House or vice versa. The U.S. intervention in the current struggle inside of Iran is entirely anchored to this strategic orientation.
As Marxists, we must shatter the myth that the U.S. capitalist class and its agents in the mass media care at all about freedom and democracy. That is a sham. People will always be deceived unless they decipher the class essence masked by these flowery themes. The vicious character of imperialism is camouflaged by those most high sounding phrases about human freedom.

The U.S. government and corporate media do not care about the sanctity of elections. When the people of Gaza voted for a Hamas-led government, they were punished with economic sanctions designed to starve them, deprive them of employment and suspend access to medicine. Across the Gulf from Iran is the world’s biggest oil producer, Saudi Arabia, under the domination of Washington and Wall Street. Saudi Arabia is ruled by a hereditary royal family and has never held an election.

The goal of U.S. imperialism is to subvert and overthrow the Iranian government and find a replacement that is friendlier or more acquiescent to imperialism’s designs to dominate the oil-rich Gulf area. If it cannot achieve all that at once, Washington will be somewhat satisfied by the internal weakening of Iran, which would reduce its influence as a regional power. Neutralizing Iran would also further isolate Hamas, Hezbollah and other resistance forces in the Middle East.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is a bourgeois nationalist regime. It has earned the enduring enmity of U.S. imperialism—but not because it is an "Islamic Republic." Iran has not "gone socialist" or otherwise desecrated the institutions of capitalism so revered by the imperialists. The source of the conflict is that Iran, after the 1979 revolution, emerged as an independent country and expelled the United States from its position of dominance in the country’s internal affairs and over its natural resources, especially its oil.
In its first decade, during the period that Mr. Hossein Mousavi was Prime Minister (1981 to 1988), the government of the Islamic Republic severely repressed Iran’s left wing parties and organizations.

Mousavi challenged Ahmadinejad for the presidency in the June 2009 election. His candidacy called for accelerating the process of privatizing nationalized and publicly-owned enterprises, and reducing social insurance programs and subsidies aimed at helping the urban and rural poor. He also called for liberalizing some of the social strictures of the Islamic Republic. His political base was primarily among the middle and upper middle classes, and the more affluent and western-oriented sectors of society.

Mousavi may be something of an accidental or transient figure in the current political crisis. What is important in U.S. calculations at this juncture is not Mousavi per se but rather the street-based protest movement dominated by the middle classes. These classes include shop owners, professionals, well-to-do university students and other privileged sectors who are often mobilized in the service of reaction.

An urban-based movement of the middle classes, especially among a new generation of young people, could serve to de-legitimize the government of the Islamic Republic, not just Ahmadinejad, in the eyes of a larger sector of the population. By throwing its weight behind this movement, Washington is pursuing a time-tested destabilization strategy, in hopes that this could lead to a deepening schism within the ruling organizations and state structures.
If this type of destabilization process does not lead to either a civil war or a collapse of the state structure—both of which may be unlikely, even though they are the preferred option of U.S. imperialism—it could at least lead to a weakening of Iran as a regional power. This, too, would be seen as beneficial for the United States at a time when the Pentagon is vastly overextended by the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

All the Western, corporate-dominated media are demonizing Iran to the hilt. This is part of a global destabilization strategy. The protests are receiving worldwide encouragement.
Based on the very sympathetic media coverage of middle-class students burning buses and destroying property, one might have expected the same media outlets to have encouraged similar, violent street actions in U.S. cities in 2000. After all, Bush lost the election by 500,000 votes and yet five millionaire Supreme Court judges ordered Bush to the White House even though widespread racist disenfranchisement by the Republicans was thoroughly exposed and proven.

McCain, the other Republicans and the Wall Street Journal are condemning Obama for not doing more to publicly denounce "voter fraud" and "repression against street protestors." What is it about this protest movement that makes the chauvinists and ultra-right wing in the U.S. ruling class embrace it?

For his part, Obama knows that if he openly embraces the protest movement, he will allow the Ahmadinejad forces to depict Mousavi supporters as servants for the same imperialism that imposed the Shah on Iran for 26 years. The Obama Administration and all the western imperialist countries, especially the Sarkozy government in France, are using a multi-faceted and nuanced effort to support the street protests. But the Obama Administration does not want to overplay the U.S. hand in the early days of this struggle.

A footnote from history

In 1953, the CIA engineered a "regime change" against the democratically elected government in Iran. Prime Minister Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh had provoked the ire of the United States and Britain when he nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company—also known as British Petroleum.

Washington and London responded by imposing economic sanctions on Iran.
The middle classes became disillusioned with the government and provided the human material for the bloody coup in 1953 that took the lives of thousands of people. The Shah of Iran was made monarch. He de-nationalized the oil. He established a 26-year long partnership of brutal suppression with the CIA and the Pentagon. Kermit Roosevelt, who led the CIA coup, was rewarded with the vice-presidency of Gulf Oil, which took over a portion of Iran’s de-nationalized oil fields.

The Western media celebrated the CIA coup against Mossadegh. The New York Times editorialized at the time: "Underdeveloped countries with rich resources now have an object lesson in the heavy cost that must be paid by one of their number which goes berserk with fanatical nationalism."

The words of the imperialists and their media are of necessity different today than those used in the Times’ editorial, but the sentiment remains the same. The leaders in Washington have never given up their aim of overturning the 1979 revolution and returning Iran to its former position as a neo-colony—just as they did to Iraq in 2003. Progressive people in the United States should remember the role of U.S. imperialism and the class character of the movements it promotes when seeking to understand the dynamics of the street protests in Iran today. Above all, the anti-war and other people’s movements must take a firm stand against all forms of U.S. intervention and in support of Iran’s right to self-determination.

redguard2009
18th June 2009, 23:40
Nice article. Hits the nail fairly on the head.

Lolshevik
19th June 2009, 07:52
As always, I appreciate the PSL's laying out of the class forces driving the movement.

Let's hope that Iran's status as a check on U.S. imperialism's expansion in the Middle East is maintained. The U.S. is overextended, but if Iran if sufficiently weakened, things could take a turn for the worse.
:(

AvanteRedGarde
19th June 2009, 08:09
PSL has decent analysis of imperialism. This an example of such and it's good to see them land on the correct side of this question.

My criticism however is that they don't highlight the fact that much of the so-called revolutionary left is bedazzled into the wrong side and end up as part of the same propaganda machine as the CIA, Snake Department, National Endowment for Democracy. While some groups are more guilty of this than others (IMT, Kasama), it's a pretty widespread trend and speaks volumes as to the whimsical nature of First World nominal revolutionary politics. Around Maoist-Third Worldist circles, we call it the "left wing of imperialism."

Incendiarism
19th June 2009, 08:49
Good article. I don't understand why such compelling evidence, which truth be told is right in front of us, is being knowingly omitted by the current supporters of the iranian uprising?

I'm sorry to sound like an overtly-critical first world petty-bourgeois stooge, but where does the worker fit into all this bourgeois enthusiasm?

redguard2009
19th June 2009, 21:22
Do you really think the million or so people who are in the streets are all bourgeois students and businessmen?

The list of worker's organizations, unions and syndicates adding their voice of protest is growing. While the spark that ignited this flame -- the ridiculous nondifferences between Mousavi and Ahmadinajad -- is a bourgeois construct, so too was the Russian revolution of 1905 and 1917, and the industrial revolutions which pulled us from the darkness of theocracy and fuedalism and, as Marx and Lenin say, gave the people the light of political consciousness where before there was only survitude and complacency towards the ineffible powers-that-be. This is what is occuring in Iran; not a socialist revolution, but a radical politicization of the Iranian people who are for the first time in 30 years rejecting the autocracy of their religious government and declaring their right to be seen, heard and answered.

RHIZOMES
20th June 2009, 07:58
The class character of the protest movement must be examined by progressive forces, just as it is by the imperialist establishment. The fact that the movement is dominated by the middle classes and the more affluent, especially in Tehran but in other cities as well, is considered to be of decisive important in the calculations of imperialism.

How does the PSL explain this then

http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/strike-at-iran-khodo-autoworkers-solidarity-with-anti-govt-movement/

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpEqxxxE8LM


Good article. I don't understand why such compelling evidence, which truth be told is right in front of us, is being knowingly omitted by the current supporters of the iranian uprising?

I'm sorry to sound like an overtly-critical first world petty-bourgeois stooge, but where does the worker fit into all this bourgeois enthusiasm?

See above.

Kassad
20th June 2009, 15:21
How does the PSL explain this then

http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/strike-at-iran-khodo-autoworkers-solidarity-with-anti-govt-movement/

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpEqxxxE8LM

It's like no one is actually listening anymore. I didn't say that 'the working class is not a part of this movement' or 'the proletariat is nowhere to be found.' Instead, I have reiterated many times that the working class is not leading this movement. From my perspective and from the sources that are available to me, it appears to be led by students and predominantly petty-bourgeois forces. This doesn't make it inherently illegitimate, but it helps us observe the class character of this growing force.

What I want you to address is this: if this movement overthrew the Iranian government, would it be revolutionary enough to combat imperialism and found a state based on human needs? I doubt it. If anything, it would formulate a state of bourgeois democracy that would weaken Iran's defense against imperialism; subjecting it to American and Israeli exploitation. Note that the American media is smiling very favorably on these protests. I wonder why.

So think of it in the terms of class struggle instead of being narrow-minded and assuming that a force rebelling against a reactionary force is automatically revolutionary and should be supported. In the near future, the working class may take a lead role and struggle for progressive gains. If this happens, I will support them without restraint, but right now, I am not seeing that.

So that's awesome. You can show me a bunch of pictures of a half dozen unions and proletarian groups joining the demonstrations, but that doesn't make this a workers movement. If you don't address the class character of an uprising, then you fail to observe it scientifically and frankly, you reject Marxist historical analysis. Though we may not be on the popular side of this issue, the Party for Socialism and Liberation will continue to make Marxist class analysis imperative in observing this growing movement and we will oppose imperialism at any cost.

RHIZOMES
21st June 2009, 01:36
It's like no one is actually listening anymore. I didn't say that 'the working class is not a part of this movement' or 'the proletariat is nowhere to be found.' Instead, I have reiterated many times that the working class is not leading this movement. From my perspective and from the sources that are available to me, it appears to be led by students and predominantly petty-bourgeois forces. This doesn't make it inherently illegitimate, but it helps us observe the class character of this growing force.

What I want you to address is this: if this movement overthrew the Iranian government, would it be revolutionary enough to combat imperialism and found a state based on human needs? I doubt it. If anything, it would formulate a state of bourgeois democracy that would weaken Iran's defense against imperialism; subjecting it to American and Israeli exploitation. Note that the American media is smiling very favorably on these protests. I wonder why.

So think of it in the terms of class struggle instead of being narrow-minded and assuming that a force rebelling against a reactionary force is automatically revolutionary and should be supported. In the near future, the working class may take a lead role and struggle for progressive gains. If this happens, I will support them without restraint, but right now, I am not seeing that.

So that's awesome. You can show me a bunch of pictures of a half dozen unions and proletarian groups joining the demonstrations, but that doesn't make this a workers movement. If you don't address the class character of an uprising, then you fail to observe it scientifically and frankly, you reject Marxist historical analysis. Though we may not be on the popular side of this issue, the Party for Socialism and Liberation will continue to make Marxist class analysis imperative in observing this growing movement and we will oppose imperialism at any cost.

Okay so you'll only support an uprising against reaction if it fits your pure and dogmatic view of what an uprising should be like. That's as bad as a lot of those miniscule ortho-Trot groups. It would suck if a pro-US bourgeois democracy took hold, but you are going on the false assumption that those are the only two outcomes available. That my friend, is called "the lowering of horizons", and is the reason for the failure of the left in many countries including my own. Times of upheaval like this is the perfect time for leftist ideas to take hold, when the people see they have the power the topple the state any time they please. I don't think it's any coincidence that absolutely NONE of the Iranian leftist groups are supporting the Iranian state against the protesters and it's only "anti-imperialists" in the first world, sitting in their little petty-bourgeois bubble denouncing any mass popular uprising which isn't fully articulated. If you may remember, the Russian revolution started off as just a general uprising against the Tsar, with a bourgeois-democratic government kissing the Western powers asses taking hold. But the unrest didn't stop and now the people were fully aware of what they were capable of. I guess if the PSL was around then it would be denoucing the Russian revolution, too.

Honggweilo
21st June 2009, 02:37
After reading the article, i have to agree with AB here...

Even though a bourgeois nationalist regime may be a bastion against imperialism in from a geopolitical viewpoint, you cant deny that the Iranian people have the full right to self-determination, and that also means their full right to reject the fundamentalist regime in Teheran without having to sit back and accept their murderous regime because "its still proves a bullwark against US foreign interest". That is just as idiotic as the left-wing Iranian People's Mudjahedeen that inlisted in the Iraqi army during the Iran-Iraq war, attacking their own people and loosing almost all of their support in Iran. Because protest sprouted from petty bourgeois circles, does that mean that the whole struggle is one in favour of US imperialism? So the SDS in the US, the Boxers Rebellion in China, May 68 in France all should be denounced aswell? The Iranian left has the best outlook of what is best for the progressive forces of Iran IMHO, and not foreign ML'ists dictating their strategy...

Unlike the Mudjahedeen, the Tudeh Party still has alot of grassroot support in the country and is fully backing the protestors;

http://www.tudehpartyiran.org/TN%20257%20-%20June%202009.pdf

manic expression
21st June 2009, 17:39
Okay so you'll only support an uprising against reaction if it fits your pure and dogmatic view of what an uprising should be like. That's as bad as a lot of those miniscule ortho-Trot groups. It would suck if a pro-US bourgeois democracy took hold, but you are going on the false assumption that those are the only two outcomes available. That my friend, is called "the lowering of horizons", and is the reason for the failure of the left in many countries including my own. Times of upheaval like this is the perfect time for leftist ideas to take hold, when the people see they have the power the topple the state any time they please.

Two things. First, it is not the PSL's position that revolutionary developments are impossible, it is simply that they seem very unlikely given the bourgeois leadership of the protests and the bourgeois goals set out by them. The PSL's analysis deals with what exists today, not what could exist a few monts from now. Second, the PSL is very supportive of leftist ideas being propagated within (and without) the demonstrations, and there is nothing in the above statement which contradicts this. The position of Iranian communists is extremely different from that of American communists, especially in relation to the rhetoric of imperialism; while this is potentially an opportunity for Iranian communists, it is also an opportunity for American imperialists. The PSL does not condemn the former by any means, it opposes and organizes against the latter. That must be held in mind.

The fact remains that the two most powerful forces behind the protests, Mousavi and Rafsanjani and imperialism, stand to hurt the workers of Iran, the workers of the entire region and of the world. That is the concern of the PSL.


I don't think it's any coincidence that absolutely NONE of the Iranian leftist groups are supporting the Iranian state against the protesters and it's only "anti-imperialists" in the first world, sitting in their little petty-bourgeois bubble denouncing any mass popular uprising which isn't fully articulated. If you may remember, the Russian revolution started off as just a general uprising against the Tsar, with a bourgeois-democratic government kissing the Western powers asses taking hold. But the unrest didn't stop and now the people were fully aware of what they were capable of. I guess if the PSL was around then it would be denoucing the Russian revolution, too.

Again, the PSL is not denouncing the work of Iranian communists. Any understanding of the principles of Marxism-Leninism is more than comfortable with the fact that communists should and must agitate within bourgeois and reactionary circles and movements. The PSL's analysis pinpoints the leadership of the protests, which is not only reactionary but serves the interests of imperialism in causing instability while denying political independence to the workers. I'm not exactly sure how that analysis got translated into what it's now apparently perceived as.

The 1905 Russian uprising saw much more political independence of the Russian toilers. In the cities, soviets were formed, while in the countryside, land reform was claimed by force. When we see that in Iran, it will be a radical change from what we are seeing today.

Lastly, the PSL is not in a bubble, it's active in the streets of the US, and that is why the PSL is recognizing opposing the rhetorical offensive launched by all members of the bourgeois media.

Pogue
21st June 2009, 17:45
fucking bourgeoisie apologist parties. fuck them.

RHIZOMES
22nd June 2009, 01:38
Two things. First, it is not the PSL's position that revolutionary developments are impossible, it is simply that they seem very unlikely given the bourgeois leadership of the protests and the bourgeois goals set out by them.

To start off with. Once national unrest starts all sorts of things come out of the woodworks. Revolutions and uprisings are not a linear and fixed thing.


The position of Iranian communists is extremely different from that of American communists

Maybe because they actually live in the country.


especially in relation to the rhetoric of imperialism; while this is potentially an opportunity for Iranian communists, it is also an opportunity for American imperialists. The PSL does not condemn the former by any means, it opposes and organizes against the latter. That must be held in mind.

Too bad your rhetoric doesn't sound like that at all, but sounds like you're taking the side of a theocratic capitalist state against protesters dissatisfied with the government for being repressive dickwads, "anti-imperialist" or not.


The fact remains that the two most powerful forces behind the protests, Mousavi and Rafsanjani and imperialism, stand to hurt the workers of Iran, the workers of the entire region and of the world. That is the concern of the PSL.

^^


Again, the PSL is not denouncing the work of Iranian communists. Any understanding of the principles of Marxism-Leninism is more than comfortable with the fact that communists should and must agitate within bourgeois and reactionary circles and movements.

Yep, uprisings against theocracies, how inherently reactionary!


The PSL's analysis pinpoints the leadership of the protests, which is not only reactionary but serves the interests of imperialism in causing instability while denying political independence to the workers.

And that's why the workers are currently striking against the theocracy. Can't you guys get it through your heads it developing beyond these irrelevant bourgeois leaders to dissatisfaction with the Iranian regime in general? The protests have started to shift from attacking the Iranian puppet presidency to attacking the Ayotollah directly, and that doesn't have too often (In fact I don't think at all). Mousavi doesn't support reforms that go as far as abolishing the entire theocratic system, last time I checked.


I'm not exactly sure how that analysis got translated into what it's now apparently perceived as.

Because that's what it sounds like? Like you're supporting a theocracy violently crack down on protesters?


The 1905 Russian uprising saw much more political independence of the Russian toilers. In the cities, soviets were formed, while in the countryside, land reform was claimed by force. When we see that in Iran, it will be a radical change from what we are seeing today.

And until then you'll criticize it into the ground.


Lastly, the PSL is not in a bubble, it's active in the streets of the US, and that is why the PSL is recognizing opposing the rhetorical offensive launched by all members of the bourgeois media.

keyword being of the US.

manic expression
22nd June 2009, 06:08
To start off with. Once national unrest starts all sorts of things come out of the woodworks. Revolutions and uprisings are not a linear and fixed thing.

All sorts of things can come out of the woodwork. This movement could gain a working-class character. It might become revolutionary. That's all well and good, but let's deal with facts, let's deal with what's happening.


Maybe because they actually live in the country.

Exactly my point. The roles are different.


Too bad your rhetoric doesn't sound like that at all, but sounds like you're taking the side of a theocratic capitalist state against protesters dissatisfied with the government for being repressive dickwads, "anti-imperialist" or not.

Again, the protests are in favor of one bourgeois faction, a faction which includes one of the country's richest men, a faction which promotes privitization and the cutting of welfare. Your wishful thinking ignores the reality in favor of imaginary movements with imaginary class characters. More importantly, a victory for Mousavi would not be a victory for the working class; any instability in Iran is an opportunity for the imperialists, and if working-class interests are not defended and promoted (which, at present, they aren't in any significant way), it will mean a defeat for the workers of Iran and beyond.


Yep, uprisings against theocracies, how inherently reactionary!

Not inherently so, just under the conditions we are seeing now. If you disagree, please enlighten us as to how un-reactionary Mousavi and Rafsanjani are.


And that's why the workers are currently striking against the theocracy. Can't you guys get it through your heads it developing beyond these irrelevant bourgeois leaders to dissatisfaction with the Iranian regime in general? The protests have started to shift from attacking the Iranian puppet presidency to attacking the Ayotollah directly, and that doesn't have too often (In fact I don't think at all). Mousavi doesn't support reforms that go as far as abolishing the entire theocratic system, last time I checked.

Why are those bourgeois leaders "irrelevant"? Because you said so?

The Ayatollah is being attacked, and Rafsanjani is trying to take his place. The very fact that Mousavi doesn't want to reform past the theocratic system (and, as a matter of fact, seems to represent the pro-business wing of the theocratic establishment) simply backs up what the PSL is saying.


Because that's what it sounds like? Like you're supporting a theocracy violently crack down on protesters?

Find a portion of the PSL's statement that does so.


And until then you'll criticize it into the ground.

Where it deserves to be criticized? I suppose, but as I've said before, the main concern of the PSL is the aggressive stance of the imperialists, for this is what we are organizing against in the streets today. Instability in Iran plays to their advantage, and it is more than reasonable to accept this for the fact it is and do what is needed to combat their interests.


keyword being of the US.

Which is where the PSL operates. And I'm quite sure the bourgeois media of western Europe, Israel and other countries are towing mostly the same line.

Idealism
22nd June 2009, 06:21
I have a question for the PSL people, if this uprising turned into a overthrow of the entire theocracy, not just "electing" another bourgeois figurehead, but also not working class in character, meaning that it would be a more-democratic-bourgeois-democracy what would be the position then? would it still be just imperialist forces?

KC
22nd June 2009, 06:26
Again, the protests are in favor of one bourgeois faction

If you think that the demonstrations are just in support of Mousavi then you're a fucking moron that hasn't been following the events of the past week at all, and that shows why you hold such a fucking ridiculous position.

When demonstrators are chanting "Death to Khamenei" that's a little further than "in favor of one bourgeois faction".:rolleyes:


More importantly, a victory for Mousavi would not be a victory for the working class

The overthrow of the dictatorship and replacement of it with bourgeois democracy would be an incredible step forward for the proletarian movement in Iran, because they could actually organize legally instead of having to do it underground or in exile with fear of being shot.

Also, could you please explain to us all how Ahmedinejad or the ruling regime is anti-imperialist?


Which is where the PSL operates. And I'm quite sure the bourgeois media of western Europe, Israel and other countries are towing mostly the same line.

Oh no, not the bourgeois media! If they think that then the opposite position must be the correct one! Whoever said that your position is based on whoever the US opposes hit the nail on the head.

manic expression
22nd June 2009, 06:42
If you think that the demonstrations are just in support of Mousavi then you're a fucking moron that hasn't been following the events of the past week at all, and that shows why you hold such a fucking ridiculous position.

When demonstrators are chanting "Death to Khamenei" that's a little further than "in favor of one bourgeois faction".:rolleyes:

Death to Khamenei...exactly what Rafsanjani, one of Iran's richest men, wants so very badly. Coincidentally, he's the highest-ranking supporter of the demonstrations, one of THE power-brokers for the movement and the one who has the most to gain from them.

Thanks for the lecture, though.


The overthrow of the dictatorship and replacement of it with bourgeois democracy would be an incredible step forward for the proletarian movement in Iran, because they could actually organize legally instead of having to do it underground or in exile with fear of being shot.

My word, blacks can't even do that in the US. Anyway, would you not agree that a so-called "bourgeois democracy" would fling its doors open to the west? Taking everything into account (western capitalist interest in the demonstrations and Mousavi, pro-business elements of Mousavi's platform, etc.), it probably would, and so the most lasting achievement of what you want to see would be Nike sweatshops in Iran.


Also, could you please explain to us all how Ahmedinejad or the ruling regime is anti-imperialist?

Iran, at present, is one of the only states to oppose Israel in the region, and it is doing so with some success. Iran does not depend or rely upon American/western capitalist involvement, unlike Saudi Arabia or Egypt for instance, but instead dictates its own terms in matters of state. Iran has repudiated imperialist businesses since 1979; I just heard from some capitalist hack on CNN that Iran "ranks among the worst of its region in attracting foreign investment".


Oh no, not the bourgeois media! If they think that then the opposite position must be the correct one! Whoever said that your position is based on whoever the US opposes hit the nail on the head.

Oh yes, the bourgeois media. The interests of the imperialists are clear here: instability is good, and it's even better when there is no political independence from the working class. You can clasp your ears and try to convince yourself that imperialists have no role in this situation, but to those of us who care about what's done and said in the real world, the increasingly belligerent stance and rhetoric of imperialism is not to be ignored. That means pinpointing its aims (promoting instability in Iran through the present struggles within the Islamic Republic) and organizing against them.

But feel free to not do this, and instead mumble meaningless and self-gratifying sarcasm as you've done already.

ArabRASH
22nd June 2009, 08:31
What's really sad about this is that they are doing the exact same thing they are accusing the US of.

they are saying the US is not interested in the IRanian people, and only want the Iranian regime to be overthrown to serve their imperial interests.

Well the only reason the PSL and other dumbasses DON'T want the regime to be overthrown is so that they can still have an "anti-imperialist" nation in place to support them.

It's disgusting. Instead of looking at what's right, both sides are trying to see what situation serves them better. To the anti-imperialist living in first world countries, they want an anti-imperialist regime in place. To the US, they want a friendly regime to carry on its imperialistic ambitions.

Well it doesn't matter what either of them want, it only matters what the Iranian people want. In the face of tyranny, dictatorship, and Islamic fundamentalism(which you really cannot say anything about unless you have lived under an Islamic theocratic regime), people want something different.

I may be criticized for this ALOT but i would like to say the following: Let's assume that this uprising is succesful, and like you are so wisely predicting, it ends up in a bourgeois democracy. Is a bourgeois democracy not revolutionary compared to an Islamic theocracy? Marx always said that in the face of feudalism, capitalism was revolutionary. Well isn't it fair to say that in the face of an Islamic fundamentalist theocracy, a bourgeois democracy is revolutionary? It's not what our goal is. It's not what we would LIKE to see. But nobody can deny it is an improvement! Didn't Marx say that democracy is the road to socialism?

Furthermore, I would like to address the issue of Israel. Now, I have lived through a war with Israel in my country, and am a staunch supporter of the Palestinians right to their own land. But with regimes like Iran's, Israel always has an excuse. With the Iranian threat gone, Israel would have NOTHING to fear, and could no longer characterize themselves as victims. What will be their excuse then when they refuse to grant the Palestinians a state, and treat them like second-class citizens? They will have none, and with no excuse they will be pressured to grant the Palestinians their demands, or face worldwide condemnation. People pity Israel now because of all these "threats". With these threats gone, the pity will be gone, and that is a very good position for the Palestinians.

Just a bunch of random thoughts. Salam!

RHIZOMES
22nd June 2009, 09:21
Furthermore, I would like to address the issue of Israel. Now, I have lived through a war with Israel in my country, and am a staunch supporter of the Palestinians right to their own land. But with regimes like Iran's, Israel always has an excuse. With the Iranian threat gone, Israel would have NOTHING to fear, and could no longer characterize themselves as victims. What will be their excuse then when they refuse to grant the Palestinians a state, and treat them like second-class citizens? They will have none, and with no excuse they will be pressured to grant the Palestinians their demands, or face worldwide condemnation. People pity Israel now because of all these "threats". With these threats gone, the pity will be gone, and that is a very good position for the Palestinians.

I agree with the rest of your post, but they'd find another excuse. Israel was bombing the shit out of Palestinians well before the Islamic revolution.

Honggweilo
22nd June 2009, 16:35
bourgeois, fart, iran, liberal, liberation, loony, party, party for sadistic lemons, party for sexual liberation, party for sexualism and liberation, party for sophistry and liberalism, party for sucky leninism, pissl, pomegranate sex librarians, psl or answer, socialism, stake, stalinist, stupidity, wankers

ffs, obvious troll is obvious... grow up

Kassad
22nd June 2009, 20:00
ffs, obvious troll is obvious... grow up

I really have no idea how that happened. Either way, it's fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out.