NSM to Picket ISO 'Socialism' Conference

[Martin Blank]

This was passed on by fellow anti-fascists after being taken from a fascist discussion forum:


On 6/20/2009, in the afternoon, we will be going to protest a Socialist's meeting in the Chicago land area. This is one of the two largest gatherings that the Socialists are having in 2009.

If you are interested in attending and standing with us, or becoming active in our area, email. [email protected] or call our unit # (773)746-3890

N.S.M. Chicago Unit Thoughts on a counter-protest?

[gorillafuck]

What is the NSM?

[Martin Blank]

What is the NSM?

The National Socialist Movement, the largest of the neo-Nazi organizations in the U.S.

[Martin Blank]

So, is the ISO or any other group planning to do anything about this? Or has the weakness and rot in the Chicago left gotten so bad that a picket by the Nazis is going to go unchallenged? :confused:

[redSHARP]

there wont be any blood shed, but the ISO wont allow a few nazi jerks to picket with out some reaction. most likely, there will be like 10 nazis out side the event and everyone would walk right by as if they are those crazy people who say the earth is ending tommorow. when nazis organize any event in the US, no one bothers to really care.

[Martin Blank]

there wont be any blood shed, but the ISO wont allow a few nazi jerks to picket with out some reaction. most likely, there will be like 10 nazis out side the event and everyone would walk right by as if they are those crazy people who say the earth is ending tommorow. when nazis organize any event in the US, no one bothers to really care.

If that last comment (in boldface) is true, then the anti-fascist left in the U.S. has become rotten to the core. I am a veteran of the anti-fascist fights of the two decades previous. If nothing is being done about 10 Nazis picketing a public event in Chicago, then it's no wonder they're growing. What fucking cowardice!

[Random Precision]

If it actually happens, I should say the Nazis will be more than a bit outnumbered. :)

[redSHARP]

If that last comment (in boldface) is true, then the anti-fascist left in the U.S. has become rotten to the core. I am a veteran of the anti-fascist fights of the two decades previous. If nothing is being done about 10 Nazis picketing a public event in Chicago, then it's no wonder they're growing. What fucking cowardice!


that statement was targeted at the common US citizen not caring, also a light hearted jab at the Nazis and comparing them to the crazy person on the corner who is ignored (though it missed the target i guess, which i am sorry for).

though your statement about a rot in the anti-fascist movement is still true. the "it cant happen here" mentality is strong here. and as anti-fascist myself, i can only imagine the shit you went through, which i must thank you for.

[Melbourne Lefty]

doesnt the NSM only have like 50 members America wide?:lol:

[Martin Blank]

that statement was targeted at the common US citizen not caring, also a light hearted jab at the Nazis and comparing them to the crazy person on the corner who is ignored (though it missed the target i guess, which i am sorry for).

I see what you're saying. I guess it's more the "generation" of anti-fascists I come from and was raised by. For us, one Nazi or KKKer out in public was, quite simply, a target. Our attitude was, "No quarter, no platform, no mercy". I have honestly lost count of how many fascists I've sent to hospitals.


though your statement about a rot in the anti-fascist movement is still true. the "it cant happen here" mentality is strong here. and as anti-fascist myself, i can only imagine the shit you went through, which i must thank you for.

Don't thank me. If there's no strong anti-fascist movement today, then I and the rest of us did something wrong somewhere along the line.

If you know your history of ARANet in the U.S., then you know the "Four Points" and you've heard of MAFNet (Midwest Anti-Fascist Network). I drafted the original Four Points back in 1994 for MAFNet, which later merged with Columbus ARA to launch ARANet. But by then we had already organized large anti-fascist protests throughout the Midwest, and even went into areas long considered their turf (e.g., Howell, Michigan; Coshocton, Ohio).

Fifteen years later, ARANet seems like nothing but a vanity organization for that Morris Dees wannabe in Columbus, the fascists are growing everywhere and being "mainstreamed" by the media and capitalist parties, and a militant anti-fascist movement is almost nowhere to be found.

Something has to give. Something has to change.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If that last comment (in boldface) is true, then the anti-fascist left in the U.S. has become rotten to the core. I am a veteran of the anti-fascist fights of the two decades previous. If nothing is being done about 10 Nazis picketing a public event in Chicago, then it's no wonder they're growing. What fucking cowardice!

Considering all the anti-NAZI and anti-Minutemen protests I participated in when I was a member of the ISO, the ISO would definitely call a counter-protest. Has Miles or the people he got this info from contacted the ISO to let them know what's going on or if there will be protests by other groups in solidarity against the fascists?

[Martin Blank]

Considering all the anti-NAZI and anti-Minutemen protests I participated in when I was a member of the ISO, the ISO would definitely call a counter-protest. Has Miles or the people he got this info from contacted the ISO to let them know what's going on or if there will be protests by other groups in solidarity against the fascists?

I have not heard or seen anything about a counter-protest so far. I expect the ISO will do something at the event, however. It's the least they can do.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Miles:


If there's no strong anti-fascist movement today, then I and the rest of us did something wrong somewhere along the line.

Squaddism, perhaps?

[Martin Blank]

Squaddism, perhaps?

Not from the side of the movement we were involved in. Our whole point was a mass response to fascism, not squad actions. The original first point in ARANet's four points specifically called for "mass, militant organizing and action". Apparently, the people who run ARANet now disagree with that, since they've since taken it out. I can only figure it's because they didn't know how to organize a mass protest.

[AmbitiousHedonism]

iso didn't do shit

[Martin Blank]

iso didn't do shit

Seriously?! Un-fucking-real!

Did ANYBODY do ANYTHING in response?

[Tjis]

So the nazis were actually at the event?

[Holden Caulfield]

Random Pizzle says:



I don't have any clue what happened, I wasn't there. As far as I know the Nazis didn't even show up. There isn't anything besides RevLeft to say they did, far as I can tell.

[Chivas]

Nothing really happened. 3 Nazis showed up while most people were in talks. They were gone by the time the talks let out for lunch. It was pretty pathetic.

As for the criticism that the ISO didnt reply, I think that you shouldn't speculate or Monday-morning quaterback unless you were there. Besides, there was nothing to actually respond to.

[Martin Blank]

As for the criticism that the ISO didnt reply, I think that you shouldn't speculate or Monday-morning quaterback unless you were there. Besides, there was nothing to actually respond to.

You don't have to be a Monday-morning quarterback to know when your team doesn't take the field. If the ISO did nothing, they did nothing -- and of that, I will be critical, regardless of whether there were three or 30 Nazis out front.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You don't have to be a Monday-morning quarterback to know when your team doesn't take the field. If the ISO did nothing, they did nothing -- and of that, I will be critical, regardless of whether there were three or 30 Nazis out front.

Or you'd be critical if there were 0 or 30 Nazis out front.

Again, since you received this information, you should have contacted the ISO organizers and asked what was going on about it in a spirit of solidarity - instead you would rather slag off other groups for doing nothing about a situation that you yourself did not take any initiative on other than talk about it online.

If you are trying to imply with these posts that the ISO does not take fascism seriously, then you are simply wrong or spewing sectarian BS. The ISO has in my experience always stood up to racists on principle. In the Bay Area, the ISO was the only socialist group protesting the Minuteman chapter that started up here; it was the ISO some random Green party people and some anarchists. As and ISO member I have been on counter demonstrations against Neo-NAZIs in Orange County where an ally was hit by a NAZI's truck while protesting on the sidewalk.

[Martin Blank]

Or you'd be critical if there were 0 or 30 Nazis out front.

Actually, no. I've worked with ISO members in the past on anti-fascist actions and I've never had a reason to complain.


Again, since you received this information, you should have contacted the ISO organizers and asked what was going on about it in a spirit of solidarity - instead you would rather slag off other groups for doing nothing about a situation that you yourself did not take any initiative on other than talk about it online.

How the hell do you know what I did? You don't. I did ask the ISO about it. They said they had the information, too, and would "act appropriately". This is why I said on the 19th that "I expect the ISO will do something at the event".

And I'm in Detroit, not Chicago. With three days advance notice, there's not a hell of a lot I could do. So, I did what I could: I made some calls, put the notice in areas where I knew other ISO members or Chicago leftists would see it, and asked what was being done there about it.


If you are trying to imply with these posts that the ISO does not take fascism seriously, then you are simply wrong or spewing sectarian BS. The ISO has in my experience always stood up to racists on principle. In the Bay Area, the ISO was the only socialist group protesting the Minuteman chapter that started up here; it was the ISO some random Green party people and some anarchists. As and ISO member I have been on counter demonstrations against Neo-NAZIs in Orange County where an ally was hit by a NAZI's truck while protesting on the sidewalk.

At the very least, I'm saying at this point that they dropped the ball. As I said, I've worked with them before and had no reasons to complain. I think the only person really spewing sectarian BS here is you (as seen above).

[Comrade Ian]

What exactly are you implying the ISO should have done instead? Disrupt a conference where important socialist ideas are being discussed and debated to hold a rally against 3 nutjobs who show up to... disrupt and inconvenience the conference? Use violence to drive them off, leading to all sorts of potential legal repercussions?\

I thank you for your post and your work to alert people of the possibility of the Nazi presence, and for your anti-fascist work in general which is important, but I don't see how the ISO has dropped the ball in anyway by ignoring 3 people until they go away (If anything they probably just made the conference look better to observers). If it was 30 people, or anything posing a real threat/challenge, then this would be a diffirent discussion, however it isn't neccesary to mobilize a small army to protest everytime a couple of Nazi's do anything. Doing so would be giving them far more attention and respect then they're worth, and would waste energy and resources that could be more efficiently used to build a real left alternative.

[AmbitiousHedonism]

You don't have to be a Monday-morning quarterback to know when your team doesn't take the field. If the ISO did nothing, they did nothing -- and of that, I will be critical, regardless of whether there were three or 30 Nazis out front.

Didn't want to waste the $$ they spent on those workshops learning about how to fight fascists.

If you don't confront neo-nazis when their numbers are small, then you'll have to confront them when they're bigger.

[Martin Blank]

What exactly are you implying the ISO should have done instead? Disrupt a conference where important socialist ideas are being discussed and debated to hold a rally against 3 nutjobs who show up to... disrupt and inconvenience the conference? Use violence to drive them off, leading to all sorts of potential legal repercussions?

You don't get it. From the perspective of the NSM, their picketing of your conference was a success. They were able to protest unopposed in Chicago in front of a gathering of hundreds of self-described socialists. The fact that there were only three of them is irrelevant. To them, and those who are potential recruits, this was a successful action. Their members, supporters and contacts will look at this and say, "The NSM had the balls to face down a large gathering of socialists and walk away unharmed."

You can console yourself by saying they are merely nutjobs, but they will recruit out of this and, as AmbitiousHedonism pointed out, the next time there will be more of them out there.


I thank you for your post and your work to alert people of the possibility of the Nazi presence, and for your anti-fascist work in general which is important, but I don't see how the ISO has dropped the ball in anyway by ignoring 3 people until they go away (If anything they probably just made the conference look better to observers). If it was 30 people, or anything posing a real threat/challenge, then this would be a different discussion, however it isn't necessary to mobilize a small army to protest every time a couple of Nazi's do anything. Doing so would be giving them far more attention and respect then they're worth, and would waste energy and resources that could be more efficiently used to build a real left alternative.

This was an argument that the ISO used to fight against when it was made by liberals and others who wanted to minimize the anti-fascist movement in the 1980s and 1990s. That you're making it now confirms the extent to which the rot in the anti-fascist movement has made it into former partner organizations.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but the impression I had was that you only wanted to complain about the state of anti-fascim.


How the hell do you know what I did? You don't. I did ask the ISO about it. They said they had the information, too, and would "act appropriately". This is why I said on the 19th that "I expect the ISO will do something at the event".

When I asked if you had alerted the ISO you responded:

I have not heard or seen anything about a counter-protest so far. I expect the ISO will do something at the event, however. It's the least they can do. Saying I have not seen or heard anything soundled passive, not that you had contacted them - saying "I expect" made me assume you had done nothing.


Actually, no. I've worked with ISO members in the past on anti-fascist actions and I've never had a reason to complain.

And I'm in Detroit, not Chicago. With three days advance notice, there's not a hell of a lot I could do. So, I did what I could: I made some calls, put the notice in areas where I knew other ISO members or Chicago leftists would see it, and asked what was being done there about it.
Fair enough - I did not expect that you would travel to Chicago for a counter-demonstration, just that you would alert the ISO of the message you or your friend had uncovered by the nazis.


At the very least, I'm saying at this point that they dropped the ball. As I said, I've worked with them before and had no reasons to complain. I think the only person really spewing sectarian BS here is you (as seen above).I agree - NAZIs should not be allowed to feel that they have been given a fraction of an inch. I don't know what the reasoning for the Chicago comrades was - most likely they were afraid a confrontation would get them kicked out of the convention building. Still I think there are ways that they could have handled it.


Originally Posted by Gravedigger http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1472910#post1472910)
If you are trying to imply with these posts that the ISO does not take fascism seriously, then you are simply wrong or spewing sectarian BS. The ISO has in my experience always stood up to racists on principle. In the Bay Area, the ISO was the only socialist group protesting the Minuteman chapter that started up here; it was the ISO some random Green party people and some anarchists. As and ISO member I have been on counter demonstrations against Neo-NAZIs in Orange County where an ally was hit by a NAZI's truck while protesting on the sidewalk.You thought the above quote was sectarian? Where have I said anything sectarian in this discussion? In fact I went out of the way to add that Greens and anarchists were also at the counter-demonstrations. Have I said anything negative about an other group in regards to this topic? The only one I criticized was you (not on the basis of organizational affiliation) because I thought you were being a hypocrite by attacking another group and anti-fascists in general today while not contacting the ISO or any other Chicago radicals about the NAZI message.

[Martin Blank]

Fair enough - I did not expect that you would travel to Chicago for a counter-demonstration, just that you would alert the ISO of the message you or your friend had uncovered by the Nazis.

Actually, if I had more than a few days notice -- ideally a couple weeks notice -- and no one else had begun any kind of organizing, I would have organized an anti-fascist counter-picket/defense guard and traveled to Chicago to participate in it.


I agree - NAZIs should not be allowed to feel that they have been given a fraction of an inch. I don't know what the reasoning for the Chicago comrades was - most likely they were afraid a confrontation would get them kicked out of the convention building. Still I think there are ways that they could have handled it.

Yes, there were other things they could have done that would have removed the Nazis from the premises and not jeopardized their conference.


You thought the above quote was sectarian? Where have I said anything sectarian in this discussion? In fact I went out of the way to add that Greens and anarchists were also at the counter-demonstrations. Have I said anything negative about an other group in regards to this topic? The only one I criticized was you (not on the basis of organizational affiliation) because I thought you were being a hypocrite by attacking another group and anti-fascists in general today while not contacting the ISO or any other Chicago radicals about the NAZI message.

Sorry. That was an overreaction on my part. I guess I always bristle a little when someone talks about how "only" their organization does a certain thing. But it certainly sounds like, in the situations you describe, you were the only ones doing anything.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yeah, I did not mean to give the impression that the ISO is the only group - or even one of the main groups doing anti-fascist work theses days. I only wanted to emphasize that the ISO does counter-protest and agrees with the kind of opposition to fascism you were talking about. It would be a big mistake to hope that NAZIs and the Minuteklan are ignored and go away. They need to feel that they can not show their faces or express their politics openly anywhere.