RFID, mobile phones and dropping off radar

[Bitter Ashes]

*settles her tin foil hat snugly upon her head*

Yes. I may be paranoid and I'm sure at least a few are going to laugh at me for this, but still, I wanted to explore into this a bit.

I'm sure everyone knows that mobile phones can be used to track your movements, right down to about 10 feet in urban areas. That's a fact, because there is actualy services available to the public to do this, if you give consent. Obviously, any sort of dedicated survielance operation though would get thier consent not from you, but from the ruling class, or judges, or whatever. So, other than just taking the battery and SIM out of your phone is there a more tempory solution to preventing your phone broadcasting your location? Something I could keep it in and then when I needed to use it again, I could just take it out, make my call and then slip it back in its pocket?

Another concern is regarding RFID chips. If you dont know what they are, you really should. They are basicly little chips that broadcast your location to scanners. You might see them in libary book, or on CD cases in shops where they have those cute little gates that are for preventing shoplifting. Bigger scanners are used by some companies, such as TESCO, who incorportate the chips into the uniforms of thier staff so they can monitor thier timekeeping, whether they're where they are supposed to be, using the loo, etc, but I'm sure the alarm bells are ringing by now as you begin to ask at what point do you leave the radius of these scanners? Could they be used to check if you're liasing with union reps, whether you're attending meetings outside of work, whether your route home passes by any unlit areas, etc.

Even more worrying is that it's looking like the ID cards we're going to have forced upon us in the near future will incorporate the RFID chip. So, how would somebody go about ensuring that they're not carrying around a tracking collar everywhere they go?

Somehow I dont think that tinfoil is going to work.

edit: Just to help with idenfitying the chips. There's different types but you may be familiar with finding these (http://www.explainthatstuff.com/rfid.jpg) snuggled away in certain consumer goods, or even in your work uniforms (usualy behind the company logo). There are smaller versions. that look very different too, but they are more expensive and unlikely to be used en-masse. That photo is of the most common type of RFID.

[DIzzIE]

There's a list of cell phones which claim to let you turn off tracking here (http://www.spywareinfo.org/articles/cell_phones/), but no clue how accurate it is.

But don't forget that your cell phone can also serve as a roving bug (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-150467.html) wherein the phone's own microphone is used to tap all of your conversations, note especially the part where it says "Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off.""

See the links and references on the Wikipedia entry for cell phone tracking for more scary shit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking).


So, how would somebody go about ensuring that they're not carrying around a tracking collar everywhere they go?

Somehow I dont think that tinfoil is going to work.

It should if you cover the object completely in it (see RSA's FAQ (http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2120#12). The foil makes what's called a which blocks signals from coming in/going out of whatever is enclosed in it. You could also place the object in the microwave...


There are smaller versions. that look very different too, but they are more expensive and unlikely to be used en-masse.

On the contrary, they already are being used en-masse. For instance, all US passports issued since August 2007 [url=http://travel.state.gov/passport/eppt/eppt_2498.html]have them (]Faraday Cage[/url).


The obvious solution to me in both cases seems to be to stop using cell phones and identification altogether. If you need them for a specific case, then fine; but to carry a cell phone around with you wherever you go is, well, nothing short of asinine.

[Salyut]

I'm sure everyone knows that mobile phones can be used to track your movements, right down to about 10 feet in urban areas. That's a fact, because there is actualy services available to the public to do this, if you give consent. Obviously, any sort of dedicated survielance operation though would get thier consent not from you, but from the ruling class, or judges, or whatever. So, other than just taking the battery and SIM out of your phone is there a more tempory solution to preventing your phone broadcasting your location? Something I could keep it in and then when I needed to use it again, I could just take it out, make my call and then slip it back in its pocket?

Thats what cash and prepaid cellphones are for. :)

[Fictional]

*settles her tin foil hat snugly upon her head*

Even more worrying is that it's looking like the ID cards we're going to have forced upon us in the near future will incorporate the RFID chip. So, how would somebody go about ensuring that they're not carrying around a tracking collar everywhere they go?

Have I missed something? ID Cards? Anyone care to explain?

[Bitter Ashes]

Have I missed something? ID Cards? Anyone care to explain?
The national ID cards? They're bieng rolled out next year. They're going to be voluntary for a short while, except for migrant workers, but soon you will have to carry one around at all times to prove your identity every time you apply for a job, the police ask to see it, or even if you're just buying something in a shop. To add insult to injury, you will have to foot the bill for your own compulsary ID card. Jaqui Smith claimed this would be about £30, but it's more like a couple of hundred pounds. You will have to report to an office to have your card made with this money in your pocket. There, you will have your fingerprints and DNA taken and added to the national criminal database, your photograph taken and also added to the criminal database and a complete record of how you are to be identified added to the chip in the card. Even if it's not made a criminal offence to not carry a card, your life is likely to be very difficult without having one on you day-to-day.

[Fictional]

That's such bullshit, no doubt they've blamed this on reducing crime?
The Police don't need to know who I am, neither does the shop down the road, I almost can't wait for these to come out, just to see so many people 'accidently' leaving them at home.
Anyone agree?

[Bitter Ashes]

They're playing the "ZOMFG! TERRORISTS!" trump card, yeah.

[Fictional]

Terrorists, christ.
I remember when someone accidently hit a gas canister with a cigarette and it blew up, Police were eveywhere thinking it was a Terrorist Attack.

Another time someone called in a bomb on the railway, they stopped everyone and asked questions in that area.

Sure they can bring out the "It's for your safety" but frankly, having people know who I am and having to carry a card containing personal information makes me more scared, I don't want people to know my last name, I don't want to have to bring out a card everytime I buy some tobacco or a drink, British laws get that much more fucked up every single year.

[Bitter Ashes]

Well, my suspicon about them raising the IDing ages in stores is that it's to soften us up for ID cards. Now, anyone under 25 is ID'd to buy alchohol or tobacco in some stores. So, between 18 and 25, if you smoke, which 40% of that age group do, then you have to carry around ID most days anyway. They'll use young people to unwittingly act as spokespeople for ID cards as they say "It's not so bad. I do it every day anyway".

[Fictional]

I'mma look into this some more when I get home from work, thanks for making me aware of this.
I asked a few colleaque's around me and all of them said "I don't really care, I leave politics alone" - most annoying reaction. ever, they're living in this world and they have the right to stand up, they should use it.

Back on topic, I wonder how hard it would be to make a cell phone and would you need to have a Satellite orbating the Universe to actualy make calls and use the mobile as we use our current mobiles?

[Bitter Ashes]

Mobile phones are tricky pieces of kit. They constantly trasmit signals to and forth to a network of landbased antennas, not satalites (unless it's a satalite phone which is an entirely different kettle of fish). The signal is encrypted so as to be unique to the SIM card to make sure you dont start recieving other people's calls. Very early mobile phones, like those bricks Yuppies used to cart around, had very poor encryption and you could actualy listen in if you managed to hit the right frequency. Unfortuantly, BT maintains a monoply on mobiles in the UK just like it does with landlines and they rent numbers to other phone companies. All calls pass through a BT operator, which is automated now and even without the hard cables under the roads, phone numbers must comply to BT's standards. This makes it pretty much impossible to create a mobile phone with your own number and the chances of you bieng able to correctly tune a crystal and encrypt the phone to match an already created phone are one in a million.

[Fictional]

That was my masterpeice plan down the drain, could Overclocking or hacking a phone change anything?

[Salyut]

That was my masterpeice plan down the drain, could Overclocking or hacking a phone change anything?

Phreaking? Those days are over. :crying:

[mel]

If you're that concerned, keep your ID in a wallet secretly lined with foil. The earlier poster was correct in that this should stop the transmitter from letting out a signal. However, it's not like a tracking device that is constantly broadcasting, RFID is a passive technology, so they can only track your movements where there are readers.

As for the phone, I don't know of anything that can temporarily stop the triangulation. I don't know of any thin material that can block the signal. Best to just take out the battery. You should do this anyway, because besides the problem of triangulation, some phones can have their microphones activated remotely and conversations listened in on. A phone with no power can't spy on you.

[Fictional]

Without sounding like a complete idiot, do you mean Foil that you wrap your food in? :3

[Some Red Guy]

Without sounding like a complete idiot, do you mean Foil that you wrap your food in? :3

That's the one, I think.

But I heard some cell phones have this small extra battery inside it meaning taking out the big battery is not always enough. I am very sceptical to having cell phones near me at all, I am planning to get rid of mine. It's not like we can't manage without them.

[Fictional]

That's the one, I think.

But I heard some cell phones have this small extra battery inside it meaning taking out the big battery is not always enough. I am very sceptical to having cell phones near me at all, I am planning to get rid of mine. It's not like we can't manage without them.

I hardly use mine, and since I recently broke up with the girl I'm seeing, I doubt I'll ever need it again.

[mel]

Without sounding like a complete idiot, do you mean Foil that you wrap your food in? :3

Aluminum foil should be sufficient, but that's for RFID chips, not the cell phone problem, and I don't have an RFID reader nor a transmitting chip that I can test this theory with, so you would need to get your hands on one of these and test its effectiveness before trusting my word on this, I don't want anybody walking around with a false sense of security.


But I heard some cell phones have this small extra battery inside it meaning taking out the big battery is not always enough. I am very sceptical to having cell phones near me at all, I am planning to get rid of mine. It's not like we can't manage without them.

Some people really do need the functions they provide, and others are forced to carry them for their jobs. It's nice to have an excuse "the battery fell out", "i had no signal", "I was away and I forgot my charger" for your company not being able to track your movements if things should come to that.

If you're concerned about the small battery inside, you can take the phone apart and look for it, try to find out if that's the case for the phone you want to get, or it's possible that you can find a device that will detect if your phone is transmitting a signal when the battery is removed. It all depends on your level of paranoia, but another great solution is if you're going somewhere you know you won't need your phone, just leave it home with the battery out, in a basement if you have one, most basements get terrible reception and thick concrete walls tend to block cell phone signals pretty well.

[Fictional]

Awesome, I'm going to research some more into this and try find what's transmitting the signals, if it's the connection from the cell phone to the provider then there's no possibly way to get rid of it I guess.

[Communist Theory]

Get a Faraday purse or something.
Also RFID chips in library books can't be used to track you from miles away more like 5 feet away so yeah. Although active RFID chips can be used for much longer distance thought they require a battery.

[Bitter Ashes]

Well, doesnt it depend if there's scanners nearby?

[mel]

Well, doesnt it depend if there's scanners nearby?

Yes. A passive RFID chip has a very short-range passive transmitter that responds only to a scanner. There are active RFID chips with a battery in place that actively transmit their signal, but I believe as of right now these are less common. (and probably do not exist in your ID Cards) There are also long-range RFID transmitters, but I can't find any information as to how long-range they are. I'd imagine that a longer-range transmitter would require a longer antenna and be more conspicuous, so most tiny RFID tags are of the passive variety.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that the active variety should theoretically still be defeated by encasing them in aluminum foil temporarily. There are also instructions on the internet for actually destroying RFID transmitters in such a way that it is not clear that the destruction was intentional. I'll leave googling "destroy RFID" and perusing the first few results as an exercise for the reader.

[Fictional]

Anyone read the News paper today?
ID Card scheme ditched.



Headlines: '£1bn wasted' as ID cards ditched
Column: ID cards were effectively dumped by ministers yesterday after spending nearl £1billion on them.
The Documents would never become compuilsory for everyone, home secretary Alan Johnson declared, in what widely seen as an embarrasing U-turn by the government.

A trial project which would have seen some airport workers required to carry an ID card was also ditched.
Previously, ministers had said the cards would be obligatory for all once four-fiths of the population had one.
But Mr Johnson said: 'Holding an identity card should be a personal choice for British citizens - just as it is now to obtain a passport.'
The government has already spent £883million on ID cards since 2003.
About £650million was spent on two contracts awarded in April, while £36million went on a consultation exercise. The U-turn was mr Johnson's first major announcement since he became home secretary on June 5.
It follows recent reversals on holding the Iraq war inquiry in pirvate, getting MP's to sign up to a code on conduct and Royal Mail privatisation.
The cards will see be compulsory for foreign workers but the scheme for Machester Airport and London City Airport staff will be voluntary.
Ministers insist the £30 card will be useful for youngsters wanting to buy alcohol and can be used instead of a passport for travel in Europe.
A pilot scheme covering Greater Manchester will be extended through out the north-west early next year.

Phil Booth, of No2ID, said: 'This is a humiliating climbdown but they are still hanging on to the scheme. They are rearranging the deckchairs while this Titanic heads to the bottom.'

Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This decision is symbolic of a government in chaos.'


Is it me or are the government contradicting themselves, one minute they're trying to tell people to stop drinking so much, next they're telling people ID cards will be 'great' for buying alcohol!

[Marxist Madman]

I think everyone is afraid of the chips in your wrists; my family (extreme right-wing) was discussing this with much fear a year ago. They, however, like to blame it on 'the damned liberals' :rolleyes:

[mel]

I think everyone is afraid of the chips in your wrists; my family (extreme right-wing) was discussing this with much fear a year ago. They, however, like to blame it on 'the damned liberals' :rolleyes:

It's also demonized in the extreme by the fundamentalist christians, who believe that chips in the hand or wrist could be the "mark of the beast" and signaling a sign of the apocalypse. Hopefully there will be enough groups with opposition to it that it doesn't become a reality.