Red Toryism

[The Idler]

Start the Week with Andrew Marr on Radio 4 had, as a guest, Phillip Blond (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/stw/stw_20090615-1039a.mp3) who articulated a Red Toryism.

[Jazzratt]

Do you want to expand at all? Or do we all have to listen to the program in order to get any sensible debate going?

[krazy kaju]

From the description provided on Wikipedia (sorry I cannot post actual links), it appears that "Red Toryism" is simply another form of "third way" that combines aspects of conservatism and socialism and then considers itself a novel ideology, even though it is not.

[Demogorgon]

From the description provided on Wikipedia (sorry I cannot post actual links), it appears that "Red Toryism" is simply another form of "third way" that combines aspects of conservatism and socialism and then considers itself a novel ideology, even though it is not.
That's very ahistorical. It is basically the political philosophy of Benjamin Disraeli who rather predates "third way" thinking. The old Progressive Conservative Party in Canada was very influenced by it.

[krazy kaju]

That's very ahistorical. It is basically the political philosophy of Benjamin Disraeli who rather predates "third way" thinking. The old Progressive Conservative Party in Canada was very influenced by it.

Whether or not it predates "third way" thinking is irrelevant to my post. Had you read my post and analyzed it correctly, you would have realized that I was simply comparing it to "third way" political systems which mend social conservatism and socialism while providing no real change. Red Toryism, just like every "third way" ideology, is an old, discredited, statist, and reactionary ideology which ought to be done away with.

[Demogorgon]

Whether or not it predates "third way" thinking is irrelevant to my post. Had you read my post and analyzed it correctly, you would have realized that I was simply comparing it to "third way" political systems which mend social conservatism and socialism while providing no real change. Red Toryism, just like every "third way" ideology, is an old, discredited, statist, and reactionary ideology which ought to be done away with.
It doesn't merge anything socialist in though. That is my point in you being anachronistic in your thinking. Disraeli was concerned about social division in Britain, believing it would destroy the existing order and so created a set of policies whereby the poor would be given some aid similar to the old feudal alms system in order that the system might be maintained. There is no socialism at all involved, simply a concession based on an institution that existed long before socialism in order to prevent social unrest.

In that and several other vital ways, it differs completely from the "third way".

[The Idler]

Cameron has just backed Philip Blond's new Red Tory think tank (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8381422.stm) called ResPublica (http://www.respublica.org.uk/). Expect more media fawning over how new, original and innovative this idea claims to be - in the run-up to the general election.

[spiney norman]

Sounds like the old Ted Heath one nation tories to me. In fact I think that's the image Cameron wants to portray, rather than cold hearted Thatcherism. I think we all know what we're going to get though.

[Die Neue Zeit]

It doesn't merge anything socialist in though. That is my point in you being anachronistic in your thinking. Disraeli was concerned about social division in Britain, believing it would destroy the existing order and so created a set of policies whereby the poor would be given some aid similar to the old feudal alms system in order that the system might be maintained. There is no socialism at all involved, simply a concession based on an institution that existed long before socialism in order to prevent social unrest.

In that and several other vital ways, it differs completely from the "third way".

Which "Third Way" are you referring to? Keynesianism or economic fascism?

[graffic]

Cameron wants to be as nice as possible to court votes, so he moves closer and closer to the centre claiming to be a "compassionate" conservative. At least Thatcher believed in what she did, she didn't fuck about trying to please people, 52% voted for her and pretty much everybody else hated her. I hope people see past the publicity and see the tories for what they really are, Peter Hain recently said that if Cameron gets into no 10 and carries out the policies he will make Thatcher "look like a liberal".

[Revy]

It sounds like a ruse to attract Labour supporters. Not sure if it would work, even for the New Labour elitists.

[Demogorgon]

ResPublica is a bit worrying given it has Philip Blond at its core. A man whose views on religion make him a less than appealing policy source for anyone who values secularism.
Which "Third Way" are you referring to? Keynesianism or economic fascism?
Blair's third way. Third Way between the old Labour Party and Conservative Policies. Not unlike Clinton's. Keynesianism isn't really third way at all because it is embraced by various different political outlooks for different political goals. Third Way to refer to fascism is archaic and not used in contemporary political discussion.

[Demogorgon]

It sounds like a ruse to attract Labour supporters. Not sure if it would work, even for the New Labour elitists.
It long predates the Labour Party. As I say it comes from Disraeli who believed the problem with Britain was it was divided in two, a rich part and a poor part and that the elite would lose the support of the poor if they did not do something to improve their lot.

It is a position that thrived particularly in Canada. The Progressive Conservative Party in the Eastern provinces was Red Tory through and through.

[genstrike]

Red Toryism seems to be an ideology of traditionalism, coupled with some state-owned enterprises or social programs for social and economic development. It probably was more deeply ingrained in the Canadian consciousness for a while because it took a lot of state initiatives and crown corporations to open Canada up to colonialism and promote settler-style economic development.

That said, it's nothing new and it's had a long history in Canada although it's pretty much dead outside of Danny Williams' little fiefdom out in Newfoundland. In the last couple decades, though, the Conservative Party has pretty much been won over by little Thatchers.

While it's obviously not a revolutionary or anti-capitalist ideology, but given the dominance of neoliberalism in recent years (even in the allegedly social democratic NDP), I don't blame people for longing for it. Though it's a shitty choice, I'd rather have a Red Tory than a Thatcher wannable any day.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Don't you mean "Danny Chavez"? ;)


It long predates the Labour Party. As I say it comes from Disraeli who believed the problem with Britain was it was divided in two, a rich part and a poor part and that the elite would lose the support of the poor if they did not do something to improve their lot.

It is a position that thrived particularly in Canada. The Progressive Conservative Party in the Eastern provinces was Red Tory through and through.

Red Toryism is a sham for at least a couple of reasons, both of which are related:

1) The moment the Tories come to power, they'll ditch Red Tory rhetoric in order to appease the interests of big business; and
2) The Red Tories don't have the guts to operate their own political party in order to further their agenda.

It can even be said that Red Toryism is the British variant of the empty domestic politics of one Otto von Bismarck.

[Richard Nixon]

Sounds interesting, better than Labour at least.

[The Idler]

Red Toryism seems to be an ideology of traditionalism, coupled with some state-owned enterprises or social programs for social and economic development. It probably was more deeply ingrained in the Canadian consciousness for a while because it took a lot of state initiatives and crown corporations to open Canada up to colonialism and promote settler-style economic development.

That said, it's nothing new and it's had a long history in Canada although it's pretty much dead outside of Danny Williams' little fiefdom out in Newfoundland. In the last couple decades, though, the Conservative Party has pretty much been won over by little Thatchers.

While it's obviously not a revolutionary or anti-capitalist ideology, but given the dominance of neoliberalism in recent years (even in the allegedly social democratic NDP), I don't blame people for longing for it. Though it's a shitty choice, I'd rather have a Red Tory than a Thatcher wannable any day.
Just to be clear, I have no illusions in Cameron as a sincere Red Tory (if such a thing exists). Once Cameron is in power, I expect overwhelmingly Thatcherite policies from Cameron. Anything like Disraeli will be given short-shrift.

[Dimentio]

Start the Week with Andrew Marr on Radio 4 had, as a guest, Phillip Blond (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/stw/stw_20090615-1039a.mp3) who articulated a Red Toryism.

Sounds like Fredrik Reinfeldt's rebranding of the Swedish conservative party - "the new worker party". Its mostly a question of aesthetics and empty propaganda.