A communist EU

[JammyDodger]

How do we get to this?

My feeling is that if the EU was steered towards Communism, Russia might quite happily revert, China would feel under less pressure, the communists in India and south east asia would be heartened and the US would have to put up with it.

I wanted to discuss what the road is to making the EU communist, what point of that road we are on, are we sneaking forwards or slipping backwards.
What actions are needed?
Is it fantasy?

Is a communist Europe best done via EU membership or on a country by country basis?

Its a large and pretty vague topic, mainly to chew the fat and meet with the locals here.

[NecroCommie]

For EU to become communist, its citizens must have something to gain and little to lose in such revolution. Seeing that most of our welfare comes from imperialist exploitation I just dont see that happening, except if something changes our status as exploiters or structure of our class societys.

So basically, numerous revolutions in the third world might tip our working class to such difficulties that they start revolting. After all, it is not like the upper classes would sacrifice any of their excessive welfare. :rolleyes: Or then the 3rd world would industrialize (as China) and they could start managing themselves. This too would lead to increased poverty of the 1st world and the polarization of class differences.

After the "critical mass" (I just coined that term myself) has been achieved the class nature of society would take care of the rest. Whether these changes could happen in our lifetimes is a more difficult question, to which I would answer no as a hardcore pessimist. Radical political shifts are not uncommon however, so I promise nothing.

[JammyDodger]

Great answer.
Could the gap between rich and poor play a part?.

Is any corner of the EU closer to turning Communist than the rest?
IE could we see Communist MEPs getting voted in.

[Dóchas]

Great answer.
Could the gap between rich and poor play a part?.

Is any corner of the EU closer to turning Communist than the rest?
IE could we see Communist MEPs getting voted in.

well a socialist MEP was just voted for in ireland but i doubt one socialist is going to do much

[Q]

For EU to become communist, its citizens must have something to gain and little to lose in such revolution. Seeing that most of our welfare comes from imperialist exploitation I just dont see that happening, except if something changes our status as exploiters or structure of our class societys.

So basically, numerous revolutions in the third world might tip our working class to such difficulties that they start revolting. After all, it is not like the upper classes would sacrifice any of their excessive welfare. :rolleyes: Or then the 3rd world would industrialize (as China) and they could start managing themselves. This too would lead to increased poverty of the 1st world and the polarization of class differences.

After the "critical mass" (I just coined that term myself) has been achieved the class nature of society would take care of the rest. Whether these changes could happen in our lifetimes is a more difficult question, to which I would answer no as a hardcore pessimist. Radical political shifts are not uncommon however, so I promise nothing.
What a 3rd worldist bullocks!

Exploitation, as you should know, is relative to the circumstances of the particular society. 700 euro's a month might be a huge amount of money in Congo, but it isn't in Western-Europe. Also, what welfare? Every day we face cuts and privatisations, the welfare state of the 1980's has long since moved the the history books.

With this crisis more and more people will get sacked and when "growth" returns, it will be shallow and stagnant. I expect whole layers of the working class moving towards radicalisation, although many hurdles need to be retaken and many wheels reinvented to get again to a mighty class movement capable of challenging the system.

But I'm an optimist and do expect to see a revolution in Europe in my lifetime, more concretely in the next decade or so. Once in motion, things can develop very rapidly.

JammyDodger (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=24721):

How do we get to this?
By organising a platform geared towards mass class action, that strives for working class people to organise, to emancipate themselves and to put forward a socialist alternative. In other words: via a revolutionary party.


My feeling is that if the EU was steered towards Communism, Russia might quite happily revert, China would feel under less pressure, the communists in India and south east asia would be heartened and the US would have to put up with it.
If Europe were to go socialist, I expect a world revolution to follow. Think about it, out of the G8 countries, the economic stronghold of the world, 5 come from Europe.


I wanted to discuss what the road is to making the EU communist, what point of that road we are on, are we sneaking forwards or slipping backwards.
What actions are needed?
Is it fantasy?
I personally don't think the EU is a tool we can use for genuinely uniting Europe, as the EU is merely an instrument of the bosses for a more efficient exploitation of workers across Europe.


Is a communist Europe best done via EU membership or on a country by country basis?
Revolution will start in one country, if all goes well others will follow.


Its a large and pretty vague topic, mainly to chew the fat and meet with the locals here.
Hi.

[NecroCommie]

What a 3rd worldist bullocks!
Calling it bullocks will hardly make it inaccurate. By which reason do you claim that if the third world falls from the grasp of our modern corporations, everything would stay normal here? If the corporations can't accumulate capital in the third world, they will try harder so in the first and second. We do agree on this one? If not, how so?


Exploitation, as you should know, is relative to the circumstances of the particular society. 700 euro's a month might be a huge amount of money in Congo, but it isn't in Western-Europe. Also, what welfare? Every day we face cuts and privatisations, the welfare state of the 1980's has long since moved the the history books.
You know very well what I mean. When I spoke we, I meant the industrialized world. Does it not follow logic that when industrial countries take resources from developing countries, and gives barely anything in return, is it not exploitation?

Quite certainly I understand that there is exploitation in the industrial countries too, and I too understand that this imperialism is a bourgeoisie scheme with us only as chess pieces. However the fact that the imperialism is the one that buys our capital (making possible our cars computers hi-tech gadgets and stuff), makes it relevant to the question at hand. Or do you dare to claim that living conditions are roughly the same in the core areas of imperialism, as in the exploited lands?


With this crisis more and more people will get sacked and when "growth" returns, it will be shallow and stagnant. I expect whole layers of the working class moving towards radicalisation, although many hurdles need to be retaken and many wheels reinvented to get again to a mighty class movement capable of challenging the system.
Agreed.


But I'm an optimist and do expect to see a revolution in Europe in my lifetime, more concretely in the next decade or so. Once in motion, things can develop very rapidly.
While I see that the class conciousness will need much more time to develop, I too agree on the fact that once in motion things start to develop.

[NecroCommie]

Could the gap between rich and poor play a part?.
It plays a major part. Or not. It's hard to explain, as I see it the income gap is more of an indicator of class society, rather than the cause of it. Class differences are the driving force in politics, so if the gap is large, something is also wrong.

With things being so, I see that the nordic countries are the least possible to have a solid communist uprising in europe. Social democrats make sure that the people never get too radical, while maintaining the roots of the conflicts intact.



IE could we see Communist MEPs getting voted in.
I see this as highly irrelevant. Our goal is not to take the state, but to chrush the state and utterly remove it. Therefore MEP's can mostly serve as indicators of our strength. There is no communist thing that can be achieved through reforms.

I suggest Lenin's "the state and revolution" for closer marxist view on the subject.

[JammyDodger]

By organising a platform geared towards mass class action, that strives for working class people to organise, to emancipate themselves and to put forward a socialist alternative. In other words: via a revolutionary party.

If Europe were to go socialist, I expect a world revolution to follow. Think about it, out of the G8 countries, the economic stronghold of the world, 5 come from Europe.

I personally don't think the EU is a tool we can use for genuinely uniting Europe, as the EU is merely an instrument of the bosses for a more efficient exploitation of workers across Europe.


Revolution will start in one country, if all goes well others will follow.
Hi.

To my mind the EU is quite evil as a concept CAP alone is a crime against humanity, my angle was maybe by hijacking that huge behmoth it could be put to good use.

Like the Fascist did very well in the elections this year (a very good reason to up the game and work rate if ever there was one), they could form there own parliamentary group now if they could stop there knuckles dragging long enough.

Strength in the EU parliament may cause ears to listen, people follow strength, my fear on a country by country basis is that as soon as a country turns communist its friends will vanish in an instant, Russia could revert pretty unscathed I feel but not many nations have there advantages.

On platforms ive noticed an horrific case of communist parties and groups tending to split and die, being united on our common grounds has to be more important than splitting through differences in the future, im not a member of any group or party yet, still trying to work out which groups in the UK have the greatest scope to make impact win minds and facilitate change.
The jury is out at the moment.
But the Socialist Party of Great Britain is winning at the moment.

For Europe I think France is key territory, if France turned even though im 6ft6 and fat it would be worth a backflip or three.

Our movement here in the UK seems just too split up and mashed, I understand certain viewpoints are hard to reconcile but comprimise between groups for united strength against the capitalist big bucks seems mandatory to get anywhere.
Bums on seats, propoganda money and all that.

Labour the traditional seat of plain socialism here is vacant at the moment I feel its missing a trick not to progress.

Ive rambled on enough:confused:, sort of flip flopped there will get my brain in gear and try again in a bit.

[JammyDodger]

Just noticed the vote is 50/50 at the moment, thats better than I was expecting.

[thecoffeecake1]

The EU would never become communist. all countries would have to agree to this or there would be issues, and im not sure at this point and time countries like poland, germany, the czech republic, austria and many others would be to keen on the idea. the only country i can see even having slight interest at this time could be sweden.

im not for an organization like this though. ive never been for a "unified europe" or anything like that. constructive nationalism is good, but if you have one country of many different large ethnicities, whenever theres an issue, one group starts pointing fingers at another, chaos. if it hadn't been for tito, yugoslavia would've fallen into war years before it actually did.

many different communist countries can leave peaceful, prosperous and independent.

[redSHARP]

wouldn't that make it almost a new international? how communist are we looking at? 100%? 75%? if it was 100% then it could be the new international. what # would it be; the 6th?

[Q]

The EU would never become communist. all countries would have to agree to this or there would be issues, and im not sure at this point and time countries like poland, germany, the czech republic, austria and many others would be to keen on the idea. the only country i can see even having slight interest at this time could be sweden.

im not for an organization like this though. ive never been for a "unified europe" or anything like that. constructive nationalism is good, but if you have one country of many different large ethnicities, whenever theres an issue, one group starts pointing fingers at another, chaos. if it hadn't been for tito, yugoslavia would've fallen into war years before it actually did.

many different communist countries can leave peaceful, prosperous and independent.
1. The EU would never become communist. all countries would have to agree to this or there would be issues, and im not sure at this point and time countries like poland, germany, the czech republic, austria and many others would be to keen on the idea.

The capitalist ruling classes will indeed never be keen on the idea of their demise. The working class however is a completely other matter. While class consciousness is pretty low at the moment and the movement is rather paralysed at this time due to the crisis and the lack of a fighting leadership politically or syndically, the struggle will rise in the coming period and the ideas of a communist alternative will get fertile grounds again. Especially in countries like Germany, France and others.

2. the only country i can see even having slight interest at this time could be sweden.

Their ruling class isn't interested in communism at all, in fact they're also having neoliberals in power now that carry out an austerity program. But maybe you're referring to a class consciousness that exists in Sweden and not elsewhere? If so, please enlighten me.

3. im not for an organization like this though. ive never been for a "unified europe" or anything like that. constructive nationalism is good, but if you have one country of many different large ethnicities, whenever theres an issue, one group starts pointing fingers at another, chaos.

What an utter nationalist bullshit. While recognising national questions, like for example the Basques in Spain and France, as socialists we recognise that the primary issue that binds us is our role in society, i.e. that of being part of the working class. As such we have common interests and strive thusly for internationalist consciousness and the abolition of the nationstate where possible. The early Soviet Union was a good example of how Marxists look towards the national question. Whole languages in the former Russian empire only got an alphabet after 1917 and those that insisted got their on republic, the Baltic states and Finland were even allowed to secede from the USSR. The point is simple: we cannot unite under coercion. Only by recognising and solving the national question we can truly unite.

4. if it hadn't been for tito, yugoslavia would've fallen into war years before it actually did.

Tito was popular, but was hardly the binding factor that kept Yugoslavia together. The case of Yugoslavia instead vividly examplifies that socialism (even a distorted one) can unite where as capitalism has strong interests in divide-and-rule tactics such as nationalism.

5. many different communist countries can leave peaceful, prosperous and independent.

Communism sees a genuine world unification, the nationstate will "wither away" so to speak as these become completely obsolete in an economic and political sense. Genuine world unification will see the rise of a world culture, with local aspects. Not in the imperialist sense we see now with US "coca cola culture" domination, but in a more proletarian sense as we realise we are one.

[Revy]

The euroskepticism on the left tends to lead to quasi-nationalist views. No doubt a European superstate could open the way for privatizations led by the EU leadership. But it would also mean that a revolution would resonate across an entire continent, rather than isolated in one country.

The international working class knows no country. And they know no region, a socialist EU isn't good enough. The ultimate goal is a world socialist federation.

[teenagebricks]

I think that would be the point of a socialist EU, Eco-Marxist. You are very right to say that the goal is a socialist world, I think that a socialist EU is the only realistic force that would be able to challenge the capitalism and imperialism of other nations, namely the United States.

I don't know if it will happen in the OP's, or any of our lifetimes, but I think it's certainly a possibility. I have always held the opinion that Europe would be the best starting point for a world revolution.

[scarletghoul]

wouldn't that make it almost a new international? how communist are we looking at? 100%? 75%? if it was 100% then it could be the new international. what # would it be; the 6th?
if you count all the trotskyist internationals it comes to about 500 >_>

but yeah a communist EU is probably possible in a few decades,

[Angry Young Man]

For EU to become communist, its citizens must have something to gain and little to lose in such revolution. Seeing that most of our welfare comes from imperialist exploitation I just dont see that happening, except if something changes our status as exploiters or structure of our class societys.

So basically, numerous revolutions in the third world might tip our working class to such difficulties that they start revolting. After all, it is not like the upper classes would sacrifice any of their excessive welfare. :rolleyes: Or then the 3rd world would industrialize (as China) and they could start managing themselves. This too would lead to increased poverty of the 1st world and the polarization of class differences.

After the "critical mass" (I just coined that term myself) has been achieved the class nature of society would take care of the rest. Whether these changes could happen in our lifetimes is a more difficult question, to which I would answer no as a hardcore pessimist. Radical political shifts are not uncommon however, so I promise nothing.

Revolutions in the 3rd World could be easily destroyed by the USA, unless, say, the whole of Africa declared itself a unified Marxist bloc. On the other hand, a revolution in, say, France could easily spread throughout Europe and the combined industrial power of a Euro Socialist bloc could halt America's imperial aspirations, meaning that the proletariat of the 3rd World can seize power, benefiting both from Europe's defensive and developmental capacity.

[JammyDodger]

The international working class knows no country. And they know no region, a socialist EU isn't good enough. The ultimate goal is a world socialist federation.

That my friend is beautifull, a quote worthy of song.
A world socialist federation would be a heaven to us all.

To get that though does need us to focus on our own parts of the world, ie there is nothing much that I for instance can do about bringing about a communist Chile, we have to trust our Chilean comrades will do that job.

Britain first and foremost has to be my battle ground and depending where you live your country will be you battle ground, but with the EU and even more so when the Lisbon treaty takes effect and even more so for any nation with the Euro as currency, solidarity across this continent between us all will be needed to win the day.

Lets say (and this is kind of a happy time day dream im having right now so forgive it)
50 euro MPs with communist outlooks were elected over time, that voice would be huge compared to what we have now, and imho getting heard is half the battle, any country with a first past the post system like us has little hope of electing anyone without an ungodly amount of money, but PR systems provide an opening.

Im not saying we will see our dreams reaslised soley via elections (if only)
the Unions, and actions will carry the day if anything, but to wake the masses we will need some electoral success, atleast if we are to wake them while we all still breath.

I dont want to sound selfish, I do want to see all this for my kids but I would like to witness its birth myself too.

In truth ive not long since woken up myself, and have no real right to bluster about a struggle a lot of you have been fighting for years.

Apart from odd bits of political fluff we mostly want a similar outcome, a world where airforce bases and landing strips are turned over to wheat and people are fed and where factories making things for the sake of profit make things for the benefit of mankind.
Where cradle to the grave we are all looked after and look after each other.

I guess what im getting at in a thick idiot way is I see where we are now and where we have been, and I see where we would like to be.
The route to that destination is whats fuzzy and ive not got my head around it yet, and I guess its fuzzy to many.

Perhaps if I narrow it down to just my own country GB, how do we take this ragtag collection of islands to a desired destination, I ask as im keen to get active and I dont quite know where to go with that, when I join a party it may all become clear via the direction of seasoned fighters.
Just looking to see the paths others see.

Another flip flop post tut.

[JammyDodger]

Revolutions in the 3rd World could be easily destroyed by the USA, unless, say, the whole of Africa declared itself a unified Marxist bloc. On the other hand, a revolution in, say, France could easily spread throughout Europe and the combined industrial power of a Euro Socialist bloc could halt America's imperial aspirations, meaning that the proletariat of the 3rd World can seize power, benefiting both from Europe's defensive and developmental capacity.

I wish I could put things as crisp as that.

If in my fantasy a route to turning the EU were possible, capitalisms games would be dealt a death blow.

Several commonwealths operate with EU members as heads, the US would not be able to do much atall, its currently virtually bankrupt (as are we) as it is.

For change of a global nature the weight rests on Europes shoulders.
imho.

[NecroCommie]

Revolutions in the 3rd World could be easily destroyed by the USA, unless, say, the whole of Africa declared itself a unified Marxist bloc. On the other hand, a revolution in, say, France could easily spread throughout Europe and the combined industrial power of a Euro Socialist bloc could halt America's imperial aspirations, meaning that the proletariat of the 3rd World can seize power, benefiting both from Europe's defensive and developmental capacity.
I would not say easily destroyed. It only needs two developing countries of middle east to hold U.S. in place, albeit more theoretically talking you are correct.

[Poppytry]

It's possible kind of lol. Let me explain my self. If the Left bloc within the EU Parliament was to get a majority of seats and by the left bloc I don't mean the socialist bloc as it contains many heavily pro capitalist parties such as the UK Labour Party. The Left bloc could push forward social reform policies and finally policies regarding nationalization and such. However and this is a big however, all current EU member states reserve the right to pull out of the EU. With many anti communist feelings particularly amongst the newly admitted eastern European countries I doubt they would happily embrace socialism. Also unfortunately as we saw in the most recent EU parliamentary elections, the common vote seems to be heading towards the right. At the moment its more likely we'll see a economic union but less political integration.

[teenagebricks]

The problem is the EU has privatisation embedded in its constitution, to be a member state you must embrace capitalism. You would have to overthrow the current EU and start afresh in order to establish a socialist superstate.

[Agrippa]

The whole idea is absurd. Suggesting that the political infrastructure EU be used to create communist conditions is like suggesting a firehose that shoots gasoline rather than water is more effective at putting out fires.

If all of Europe was somehow transformed into a communist society, that would mean the complete and total destruction of the EU. Nothing resembling the EU would continue to exist, except for maybe as a reactionary rallying-cry or a "government-in-exile" located in some other region still under the control of capitalists. The EU is right now, (with the possible exception of the PRC) the most advanced and developed capitalist state. The idea that a capitalist state can be "converted" to communism is Blanquist idiocy.

[JammyDodger]

The whole idea is absurd. Suggesting that the political infrastructure EU be used to create communist conditions is like suggesting a firehose that shoots gasoline rather than water is more effective at putting out fires.

If all of Europe was somehow transformed into a communist society, that would mean the complete and total destruction of the EU. Nothing resembling the EU would continue to exist, except for maybe as a reactionary rallying-cry or a "government-in-exile" located in some other region still under the control of capitalists. The EU is right now, (with the possible exception of the PRC) the most advanced and developed capitalist state. The idea that a capitalist state can be "converted" to communism is Blanquist idiocy.

can I assume you voted no ?:laugh:

Sure its the fantasy of a dreamer which is why I put it here.

If the EU does exist in that government in exile state after the push I suggest we let them have sark and build a wall around it escape from New York style:lol:

The EU as it is, is a capitalist instrument, that is true.
All the more reason for our feet to be treading its corridors causing a fuss.

I guess my next question would be, how will it go down then?

[Angry Young Man]

I would not say easily destroyed. It only needs two developing countries of middle east to hold U.S. in place, albeit more theoretically talking you are correct.

And why do you think the US' favourite puppet states are Israel and Saudi Arabia? There was some hope shown recently in Egypt with trade union action, but otherwise, the middle-east can't hold the US. A unified Europe, however, can. The only potential problem is civil war - fighting off the nationalists, who would probably be hurricaned into a fury in the name of the capitalist media. The only other portal to global communism is Latin America, but if the two combine, then the process can be sped up.

[Angry Young Man]

It's possible kind of lol. Let me explain my self. If the Left bloc within the EU Parliament was to get a majority of seats and by the left bloc I don't mean the socialist bloc as it contains many heavily pro capitalist parties such as the UK Labour Party. The Left bloc could push forward social reform policies and finally policies regarding nationalization and such. However and this is a big however, all current EU member states reserve the right to pull out of the EU. With many anti communist feelings particularly amongst the newly admitted eastern European countries I doubt they would happily embrace socialism. Also unfortunately as we saw in the most recent EU parliamentary elections, the common vote seems to be heading towards the right. At the moment its more likely we'll see a economic union but less political integration.

1. Western Europe could take on the US
2. There's a strong anti-communist current in Eastern Europe because of the USSR. So when it becomes clear that it isn't like the USSR, they will hopefully join
3. Oppressed ethnic groups in Eastern Europe will move into the western side on the promise of tolerance, hopefully developing a loyalty to socialism because of.

So after all that, the possible secession of Eastern European countries is a skeleton of fascists running an alienated state.

[JammyDodger]

And why do you think the US' favourite puppet states are Israel and Saudi Arabia? There was some hope shown recently in Egypt with trade union action, but otherwise, the middle-east can't hold the US. A unified Europe, however, can. The only potential problem is civil war - fighting off the nationalists, who would probably be hurricaned into a fury in the name of the capitalist media. The only other portal to global communism is Latin America, but if the two combine, then the process can be sped up.

Sped up, is the phrase that generated my original thoughts.

To get things moving along so as we can see the fruits of this struggle (my selfish side again), the only other way I can think of would be a Gandhi approach, but co-ordinated worldwide, which would not be an overnight endeavour in getting the capitalists crawling..

This would however cause a great deal of short term suffering, its hard to weight one life or one persons suffering against another but short term suffering v the long term suffering of billions under capitalism seems a good trade on paper.
We would need to exclude certain folks for it though (dont want nuclear reactors going pop)

I have a pop quiz question if anyone cares to stab at the answer, just a train of thought im having.

How many seats at the UN are occupied by communists?

I know there are communists and then there are communists but forget how true they may or may not be, just a number of seats.

If any mega brains can break those seats down into there country and level of commitment to a communist society that would be better, and I will owe you a pint.

[Angry Young Man]

Cuba, Cyprus, North Korea, China, Laos, Vietnam. So 7

[JammyDodger]

Cheers mate, I had em but needed to check unless some south sea island had slipped my attention.
(Nepal?, dont know)

To my mind that number moving to 8 then 9 and so on (i guess with Cyprus being quite recent its just gone from 6 to 7) its a good pointer of earths transition.

Several south american nations seem to be headed that way, and we are seeing good impact in India, and south africa plus other African nations.

Perhaps we could see that number rise very soon.

[KurtFF8]

Seeing as the Far-Right did pretty well in the latest elections: I doubt it

Also the structure of the EU isn't designed to promote worker solidarity and socialism, but instead is designed to protect the interests of capital.

The only logical thing to do would be to replace the EU with a different organization, or at least fundamentally alter the structure of the EU.

[Angry Young Man]

I've already said, say there's a revolution in France, it can spread around the rest of the EU quickly enough. I advocate a European socialist bloc because first, it can hold up more of a resistance against the USA, possibly even than a Marxist bloc of all Africa; and second because it has the power to develop the Third world fastly. My argument was a counter to the Third Worldists. Should the economy get worse, hopefully Western Europe will still be loath to fascism. Eastern Europe may be more of a concern, but should America try and culture reaction there, they'll either have to transport over Western Europe, where they can be destroyed; or they go over Asia, which will use so much fuel. It might be an idea to forge a temporary alliance with China for the same reason.

[scarletghoul]

Cuba, Cyprus, North Korea, China, Laos, Vietnam. So 7
You forgot Nepal and Moldova
this adds up to 8 altogether

and yeah there are loads of other areas in the world controlled by communists, like the 3 elected commie state governments in india, the territories controlled by various communist insurgencies, and countries with communist-ish people in government that arnt officially called communist like venezuela

[redSHARP]

Seeing as the Far-Right did pretty well in the latest elections: I doubt it

Also the structure of the EU isn't designed to promote worker solidarity and socialism, but instead is designed to protect the interests of capital.

The only logical thing to do would be to replace the EU with a different organization, or at least fundamentally alter the structure of the EU.


the right wing has risen in western and eastern europe, that does not mean South America, Africa, and Asia will head towards the right also.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think a united communist Europe is possible (as a consolidation against large external powers, such as the US or China), but it would be a replacement of the EU, rather than a reformed version of it.

[KurtFF8]

the right wing has risen in western and eastern europe, that does not mean South America, Africa, and Asia will head towards the right also.

Of course, but I was talking specifically about Europe and the EU.

[Manxboz]

It could happen, with all the uproar about MP's spending our money (just wait till the MEP expenses come out, and they will some time) and with the current ecomic climate. A revolution will happen in my lifetime, i am sure of it.

[JammyDodger]

the right wing has risen in western and eastern europe, that does not mean South America, Africa, and Asia will head towards the right also.

Only us dumbass europeans are that stupid.

Im going to wait four years before I panic, this last year has been awfull on a world economy way.

People short of jobs will (shamefully) resents minorities in there knuckle dragging "they took our jobs" type way.

The far right win things now and again but rarely hold on to seats a second time, with the world in full recovery in four years we could see them get vapourised in the polls.

The high taxes and service cuts to pay for the capitalists fuck ups over the next decade, and the fat cats still being overpaid will help us and crucify the far right.
(in reality that would be my final solution for these scum, and id volunteer with glee to bang in the nails)

Well thats this optamists hope anyway.

[Yazman]

A quote on the policies of free trade and how they actually help us. Its from Marx, of course (Yes I'm taking the lazy way out!). The EU's policies of integration can be really beneficial to us for reasons you might not initially realise:


Do not imagine, gentlemen, that in criticizing freedom of trade we have the least intention of defending the system of protection.

One may declare oneself an enemy of the constitutional regime without declaring oneself a friend of the ancient regime.

Moreover, the protectionist system is nothing but a means of establishing large-scale industry in any given country, that is to say, of making it dependent upon the world market, and from the moment that dependence upon the world market is established, there is already more or less dependence upon free trade. Besides this, the protective system helps to develop free trade competition within a country. Hence we see that in countries where the bourgeoisie is beginning to make itself felt as a class, in Germany for example, it makes great efforts to obtain protective duties. They serve the bourgeoisie as weapons against feudalism and absolute government, as a means for the concentration of its own powers and for the realization of free trade within the same country.

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

Read the whole speech! http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/marx_freetrade.html

[JammyDodger]

Well said, and a lazy way out useing Marx as a reference is a great pleasure.

He is ofcourse right, we can see this all around us, Free trade causes suffering and wakes us up one by one.

I will struggle however to vote for it forces, id never feel clean again.
Marx was a stronger and wiser (not much doubt) man than I if he could.
Though in his day the facists were not what they later became, and I suspect free trade helps them too.

[crazytaxi]

It could happen, with all the uproar about MP's spending our money (just wait till the MEP expenses come out, and they will some time) and with the current economic climate. A revolution will happen in my lifetime, i am sure of it.

i can’t see that happening, Brown has already stopped the expenses of the monarchy being published and with the current "redactions" it’s pretty obvious that the gov have a firm grip of the release of information that might anger the public. The expenses have got people pretty angry, yes... but the government has a pretty good balance going on.... the way they keep the balance (if i may use a metaphor) is by always having a majority of middle class, and keeping them under a spell by keeping them on their backs getting their bellies tickled like a pampered pet dog. What dog is going to argue with that???
I am 30 and i doubt i will ever see a revolution in my lifetime for 2 reasons. 1, lefties are so divided. 2, to many people are comfortable so they don’t want to rock the boat. Divide people, keep the majority content and you will never have any trouble.

[Dimentio]

I believe that the future belong to some sort of socialism. But the question is if its ours or theirs.

[Reiner]

What can I say.
Lenin shown us that everything is possible.
Even within one's lifetime.

And as my ex-gf says "only by having crazy plans and doing crazy things you can reach and achieve the stuff that seemed unbelievable". Translation would be something like that :D