Hồ ChÃ* Minh: Views?

[GiantBear91]

Id like to get another opinion on him other than "he was bad because he fought the US in the Vietnam war"

What are your views on him? Was he a good leader?


Also I would like to read some books abouut him or by him, any recomendments?


Thanks,
Bear

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Id like to get another opinion on him other than "he was bad because he fought the US in the Vietnam war"

What are your views on him? Was he a good leader?


Also I would like to read some books abouut him or by him, any recomendments?


Thanks,
Bear
He wasn't bad because he fought the US, but that doesn't automatically make him good either. I'm definitely not a fan of Trots, but I don't think that massacring them for defending working-class independence is a cool thing to do. A few links on Ho Chi Minh's role in killing revolutionary communists for being revolutionary communists:
The forgotten massacre of the Vietnamese Trotskyists
(http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774)A 'Moscow Trial' in Ho Chi Minh's guerrilla movement. (http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol3/No2/MosTrial.html)

[New Tet]

He wasn't bad because he fought the US, but that doesn't automatically make him good either. I'm definitely not a fan of Trots, but I don't think that massacring them for defending working-class independence is a cool thing to do. A few links on Ho Chi Minh's role in killing revolutionary communists for being revolutionary communists:
The forgotten massacre of the Vietnamese Trotskyists
(http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774)A 'Moscow Trial' in Ho Chi Minh's guerrilla movement. (http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol3/No2/MosTrial.html)

I'm parting from your implied premise that Ho or his "GPU" committed the actions described in 'Moscow Trial':

How would I elaborate his defense?

Let's briefly summarize the events:

It was a critical moment in the struggle for the liberation of Vietnam. Ho was prescient in banking on the Stalinists, first Moscow's and later (sooner, actually) Beijing's.

It would have been stupid to do otherwise.

[In spite of that, it is said--by some ex-CIA agents, no less--that he held out a sincere hope of receiving aid and protection from the U.S. in Vietnam's struggle against France.] Even Ho could be naive!

If you were Ho at that moment in time, how would you dislodge Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist forces from your northern border?

I'm not saying that torturing and killing anyone, let alone Trotskyists, is not monstrous and evil; In deed and thought it is nothing less than criminal. But place those criminal actions in their proper historical context and you might see how it is possible[,] that such things occur.

[New Tet]

Id like to get another opinion on him other than "he was bad because he fought the US in the Vietnam war"

What are your views on him? Was he a good leader?

"Bad" from whose perspective? Never mind, it's not important.

I admire Ho exactly for the same reason that informs the opposite viewpoint about him: He led a small, poor country to victory over the military behemoth of a world super-power.

Che was right when he called for "a hundred Vietnams!"


Also I would like to read some books abouut him or by him, any recomendments?
Thanks,
Bear

here's a good starting point:
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/index.htm

With all its possible defects, here's another :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_chi_mihn

[amandevsingh]

If you can find it, its not by Ho, but it features him. Giap's "Military Art of the People's War"

I found it in my great grandfather's library, I think he got it on a trip to Vietnam or USSR. I don't know if you find it anymore.

[New Tet]

If you can find it, its not by Ho, but it features him. Giap's "Military Art of the People's War"

I found it in my great grandfather's library, I think he got it on a trip to Vietnam or USSR. I don't know if you find it anymore.

I read Vien's excellent history of the war in Spanish. From there I got a quote which over the years I have posted on the net (mostly in Usenet). I'll have to dig it out (oh, here it is; I just pulled it out of my asshole!):

"...The Americans think they have found the perfect solution
with helicopters, amphibious assault vehicles, ultra-modern
tele-comunications devices, all manner of new weapons--even
toxic chemicals! Where are they now in Viet Nam? Their
situation is even more precarious than the French expeditionary
corps ten years ago..."

"I believe that no army, however powerful it may be, no
general, however gifted he may be, can defeat a people
who, however weak and small it may be, resolutely rises
and stands to fight along politically and militarily
correct lines. Our experience has demonstrated that one
cannot harbor any illusions about the good will of
imperialists; colonialism, in its new forms is even more
dangerous than before, and the people must be willing to
combat it, if necessary, by armed struggle. We must not
allow ourselves to be intimidated by the power of modern
weaponry; it is the courage of men that, in the final
analysis, decides the outcome."

--General Vo Nguyen Giap*

*From "Viet Nam, 1945--1975, Treinta años de combate de
liberación nacional" por Nguyen Khac Vien, Ediciones en
lenguas extranjeras, Hanoi--1975.

[amandevsingh]

Nice^

Poorly armed Vietnamese guerrillas were really the brave ones. Not Americans who were dripping with ammunition and technology.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Nice^

Poorly armed Vietnamese guerrillas were really the brave ones. Not Americans who were dripping with ammunition and technology.
I don't think it's that helpful to talk about bravery and cowardice, since that's the language nation-states use to motivate their workers to kill other workers. You can call draft-dodgers brave or you can call them cowards, but they deserved support either way. Equally, I don't think we should write the bravery of Ngo Van or Ta Thu Thau out of history.

[amandevsingh]

That one is true, I concede my last statment

[GiantBear91]

So What are some of the bad things Ho did? Again, Im just looking for both sides of the story.
Was he a true communist? Did he treat his fellow people well? Oh and what was the point in taking over south Veitnam? I never knew why he did that...


Thank you to all the comrades who are giving their input on this subject :)

[el_chavista]

There is a google book on line, "Vietnam and America", at http://books.google.co.ve/books?id=SVtNalqmYgAC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=%22Military+Art+of+the+People%27s+War%22&source=bl&ots=rMuxdJB5Mr&sig=i6Ic2Fz_ERPIrY8HcZGXmBdDqos&hl=es&ei=XzJCSuycLInEMb6Z2cEH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

with these contents by Ho Chi Minh:


"First Appeal to the United Statew" (June 18, 1919)
"The Path which led me to Leninism" (1960)
"Founding of the Doc-La Dong Minh Hoi (June 1941)


and other subjets by General Vo Nguyen Giap.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

So What are some of the bad things Ho did? Again, Im just looking for both sides of the story.
Did you see my links? The International Communist League and the Struggle group took a line that was more revolutionary than the Viet Minh's, criticised the USSR and argued for a more democratic form of communism. They were repressed, arrested and murdered, actions which Ho Chi Minh supported.

Was he a true communist?
I'd say no, but then I don't believe that "socialism in one country" could ever work anyway.

Did he treat his fellow people well?I'd say no. As far as I know, it wasn't much different to any other Stalinist state, there was no real worker's control over their workplaces, people didn't actually have that much more say over what happened in their lives...basically, if you ask a Stalinist or Maoist, they'll say it was great, if you ask a Trot or anarchist (or most democrats, for that matter), they'll be less enthusiastic.
Oh and what was the point in taking over south Veitnam? I never knew why he did that...
Ho Chi Minh didn't take over south Vietnam, the south Vietnamese communists did. As I think I've made clear, I'm not a particularly big fan of the Vietminh, but since it was run by a brutally authoritarian US-backed dictator who kept most of the population in poverty, I can't blame them for wanting to get rid of him.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Ho Chi Minh was a great Communist, freedom fighter and anti-imperialist, so yes I like him very much.

[Comrade Blaze]

He did manage to defeat the American war machine against all odds, that makes him a hero in my book.:thumbup1:

Comrade Blaze

[Sean]

There is this anti-imperialism thats all pervasive that suck in everything. I think it actually deserves its own thread, however the fact that America, say, supports Iranian revolution is a kiss of death in some eyes. However as this thread rightfully brings up, you can still be a bastard and scourge of the USA at the same time. It's not a pantomime and the two are able to be seperated, albeit with difficulty.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

He did manage to defeat the American war machine against all odds, that makes him a hero in my book.:thumbup1:

Comrade Blaze
Ho Chi Minh didn't defeat the American war machine; the Vietnamese people did. We should always remember that history is made by mass action, not individual Great Men.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Ho Chi Minh didn't defeat the American war machine; the Vietnamese people did. We should always remember that history is made by mass action, not individual Great Men.
Yes okay, but I think it's pretty obvious what Comrade Blaze meant...

[Comrade Blaze]

Yes okay, but I think it's pretty obvious what Comrade Blaze meant...

Thanks comrade:thumbup1:

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

No problem mate. It's obvious what I mean when I say Lenin started the October Revolution, Emperor Hadrian built the Hadrian Wall, Cheops built the Great Pyramid, Stalin defeated the nazis.
Of course they didn't do that in person, but they were extremely important in leading what happened.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

No problem mate. It's obvious what I mean when I say Lenin started the October Revolution, Emperor Hadrian built the Hadrian Wall, Cheops built the Great Pyramid, Stalin defeated the nazis.
Of course they didn't do that in person, but they were extremely important in leading what happened.
See, I'd be very suspicious of this. An important part of bourgeois ideology is the idea that only a few ruling-class individuals matter and everyone else is just an anonymous mass. Saying Hadrian built the wall and Stalin defeated the nazis plays into this idea. There's a great poem by Brecht about it (http://www.marxists.org/subject/art/literature/brecht/index.htm). When you look at the personality cults that built up about Stalin and Mao, I think you can see why I think that kind of habit is dangerous.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

See, I'd be very suspicious of this. An important part of bourgeois ideology is the idea that only a few ruling-class individuals matter and everyone else is just an anonymous mass. Saying Hadrian built the wall and Stalin defeated the nazis plays into this idea. There's a great poem by Brecht about it (http://www.marxists.org/subject/art/literature/brecht/index.htm). When you look at the personality cults that built up about Stalin and Mao, I think you can see why I think that kind of habit is dangerous.
When people say Hadrab builtthe Wall, they actually mean Hadrian ordered the building of the Wall.
Of course the mass is most important.

[Richard Nixon]

He did manage to defeat the American war machine against all odds, that makes him a hero in my book.:thumbup1:

Comrade Blaze

I assume you like Admiral Yamamoto since he beat the American war machine at Pearl Harbour.

[Comrade Blaze]

I assume you like Admiral Yamamoto since he beat the American war machine at Pearl Harbour.

Your misunderstanding me:(
I think the people is the most important, no its the only important factor in well everything, I just admire the man who helped his people defeat such a powerful force for Imperialism.:thumbup1:

Comrade Blaze

[redSHARP]

That one is true, I concede my last statment


holy crap! people being considerate and polite?!:laugh:


he was a good leader who fought to liberate his country and led the north to victory over a racist, imperialist country. i did not do that much research on him, so i cant form a full opinion on him yet.

[blake 3:17]

He's a hero. I quite liked William Druikers biography published in 2000 or so. Also Jonathan Neale's history of the Vietnam War (it also goes under the title The American War) gives a very good overview/analysis of the origins of Vietnamese Communism.

A few poems of Ho Chi Minh, as translated by the great American anarchist Kenneth Rexroth: http://www.motherbird.com/hochi.html

[khad]

I assume you like Admiral Yamamoto since he beat the American war machine at Pearl Harbour.
There's a difference between winning a battle and winning a war.

[n0thing]

I have nothing but respect for the Vietnamese who fought the American troops. I have virtually no respect for the man who did no actual fighting, and manipulated those who did to his own selfish ends.

[blake 3:17]

Veteran Vietnamese Trotskyist dies


Hoang Khoa Khoi, 1917-2009


Jean-Michel Krivine (http://www.revleft.com/vb/spip.php?auteur183)

HOANG KHOA KHOI (Robert): 1917-2009
Our dear Vietnamese comrade Hoang Khoa Khoi has just died at the age of 92, on Thursday April 9. His family and friends gathered a week later in front of the crematorium of Père-Lachaise to pay him a last tribute.


He was the oldest Vietnamese Trotskyist still alive. He arrived in France in 1939 with the 20,000 ONS (ouvriers non specialises – non specialised workers) that the colonialist government had requisitioned to replace the workers sent to the military front.
In 1942 he was imprisoned for three and a half months in the prison at Sorgues for "Communist propaganda" although it was only the following year that he joined the Fourth International. While coming out of prison he came across a young Vietnamese, Dang Van Long, who had committed the crime of signing a petition against the commandant of his camp. Long become his best friend and 4 years later joined the Fourth International also.
From 1945 Khoi participated in the activity and then in the leadership of the Parti Communiste Internationaliste (Internationalist Communist Party, French section of the Fourth International) and with some compatriots they set up the “Vietnamese Trotskyist Group in France” first as members of the PCI and later as members of its successor organisation, the LCR. Two Vietnamese members, of whom he was one, were elected to the Executive Committee at the 5th Congress of the Fourth International in December 1957.
I was very affected by the first Vietnam war which I had campaigned against from 1947, joining the Jeunesses Socialistes (the social democratic youth organisation, which was unaware of the Trotskyist nucleus developing within it). After their dissolution by the Socialist leadership, I joined the French Communist Party and remained there, after having joined the Fourth International in 1956. It was in the 1960s that I met Khoi, who we knew by his pseudonym, Robert. Attracted by his culture, his charisma, his kindness and his internationalist spirit, I joined the Vietnamese Group of which I was the sole “white” member.

Linky: http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1652

[DancingLarry]

I assume you like Admiral Yamamoto since he beat the American war machine at Pearl Harbour.

Admiral Yamamoto was a decent and honorable man who had opposed the war policy of the Japanese militarists all the way back to the invasion of Manchuria in 1931. Tojo personally despised Yamamoto and may even have been involved in efforts to assassinate the Admiral. However, precisely because of his honor and decency, the sailors and officers of the Japanese Navy were devoted to Yamamoto, and between that support and his undeniable skills as a naval strategist, it was impossible for the militarists to oust him legally from his position as admiral of the Combined Fleet. He thought the decision to go to war with the US to be the height of folly, but once the decision had been made he did his best to craft a strategy that gave Japan the best chance to win he could.

[GiantBear91]

Hot damn... good view points... :D