RAAN: how to? [Archive]

Jack

15th June 2009, 01:03

I have been reading on some organizations/parties/activist, and came across RAAN. I have read things about RAAN on other websites, but their website seems to be not working. I also see people saying they are a member of RAAN, and I was wondering where you could go to do this, or learn more about it.

RAAN was pretty much a fling, there's no real organization to it, but yes they do seem more like RASH than anything. They embrace Marxists, contrary to what Andrei said, but only libertarians, not Leninists. They did attack the RCP's bookstore, which I for one am not "appaled" by, but that's nothing compared to what Maoists have done. I know the Philidelphia RAAN was formed by members of RASH.

Odds are there's no RAAN chapter near you, so you would ahve to start one, it pretty much is a street gang though. I like them, but I don't agree with their organization method and who they let in.

I find it interesting that Leninists can't seem to get over the actions of 5 anarchists that every other anarchist had nothing to do with it. But since they brought up the bookfair and how evil we are for not letting non anarchists distribute materials, would it have been acceptable to let Democrats, the Green Party, or conservatives into the bookfair to distribute materials, because denying them would be "sectarian" and "elitist".

The Douche

15th June 2009, 01:35

okeefejmc

15th June 2009, 03:05

Cmoney, in order to create a "chapter," what needs to take place ? Or just to become a part of RAAN.

The Douche

15th June 2009, 03:36

Cmoney, in order to create a "chapter," what needs to take place ? Or just to become a part of RAAN.

There really are no "chapters" in order to have a RAAN presence (most of us like to use the term "crew") all you have to do is get a group who agrees with the P&D and do something. Doing something is the important part, RAAN only really exists in praxis. It doesn't take meeting somebody, emailing somebody, sending in dues or anything like that, You just agree with RAAN and then practice RAANismo.

okeefejmc

15th June 2009, 05:29

Good deal. Glad to see.

ComradeOm

15th June 2009, 11:16

Their members who used to post here seem to have left as wellThere are still one or two hanging around but yes, I've not seen the 'first generation' of members around here in a long time. A pity because while I find RAAN itself to be almost laughable I did get on, relatively, well with some of those members

I find it interesting that Leninists can't seem to get over the actions of 5 anarchists that every other anarchist had nothing to do with itThe problem being of course that far from condemning the attacks, or even shrugging their shoulders, RAAN members and the 'organisation' itself actually condones them. Now you may not particularly care for the RCP, and you'd be in good company there, but suggesting that such petty vandalism is in any way productive is nothing but sectarian madness

Which is really where the whole problem with RAAN comes in. As an 'organisation' almost completely devoid of any theoretical base/platform the one thing it does value above all else, to the point of fetishisation, is simple and direct action. The purpose of such action is not irrelevant but rather action itself is its purpose. Personally I'm reminded of Mussolini's purely idealistic 'philosophy of action' but frankly this 'street gang' does not deserve to feature in a half-way serious political discussion. They'd probably prefer that anyway

Good deal. Glad to see. Hmmm, aren't you even going to ask just what RAANismo is? Go on, it can be very entertaining to hear it explained (http://www.revleft.com/vb/culture-red-anarchist-t99893/index.html?t=99893)

The Douche

15th June 2009, 13:25

The problem being of course that far from condemning the attacks, or even shrugging their shoulders, RAAN members and the 'organisation' itself actually condones them. Now you may not particularly care for the RCP, and you'd be in good company there, but suggesting that such petty vandalism is in any way productive is nothing but sectarian madness

As we have said before, fuck Leninism. Do I think that the vandalization of the bookstore was something important to carry out? No not really, but do I care if the RCP gets shut down, fucked up, or run out of town, no, no I don't, in fact, I would see that as a victory for the oppressed peoples.

Which is really where the whole problem with RAAN comes in. As an 'organisation' almost completely devoid of any theoretical base/platform the one thing it does value above all else, to the point of fetishisation, is simple and direct action. The purpose of such action is not irrelevant but rather action itself is its purpose. Personally I'm reminded of Mussolini's purely idealistic 'philosophy of action' but frankly this 'street gang' does not deserve to feature in a half-way serious political discussion. They'd probably prefer that anyway

RAAN is not an "organisation" we are a dis-organisation. There is a strong theoretical base that runs through RAAN, while all members may have differing ideas (in fact I bet there are no two members with the same exact ideology) there are general themes, influenced by insurrectionary anarchism, and my autonomist marxism that form basis for what all RAANists consider to be RAANismo.

RAAN places an emphasis on action yes, and I like how whenever one cannot make a valid critiscism of another groups politics they just refer to it as a "fetish". RAAN does not have a "fetish" for direct action, RAAN is built upon, and only exists in action. RAAN does not exist unless you are making it.

If you think our "street gang" doesn't have a place in your political discussion, thats just fine with me, because where I'm from, I hear a lot more talk about street gangs that the labor theory of value.

okeefejmc

15th June 2009, 17:42

ComradeOm: I have read that post. That is why I didn't ask.

Stranger Than Paradise

15th June 2009, 20:47

As we have said before, fuck Leninism. Do I think that the vandalization of the bookstore was something important to carry out? No not really, but do I care if the RCP gets shut down, fucked up, or run out of town, no, no I don't, in fact, I would see that as a victory for the oppressed peoples.

I am an Anarchist myself but please explain to me how this was in anyway productive for our struggle? Infact this kind of thing directly harms our struggle. I am completely bemused by it. I know you said it wasn't important but do you know why the people who did it thought this was a good idea?

The Douche

16th June 2009, 00:16

I am an Anarchist myself but please explain to me how this was in anyway productive for our struggle? Infact this kind of thing directly harms our struggle. I am completely bemused by it. I know you said it wasn't important but do you know why the people who did it thought this was a good idea?

I would assume they feel, as I do, that Leninism is an ideology opposed to the liberation of oppressed people's. As such, they felt it necessary to attack the oponents of liberty and socialism, a feeling which I assume everybody on this forum has.

As I said I don't think it was particularly important or productive. But I am not opposed to the action at all. Its just not something I would've put my time and energies toward.

Do I think it is good when we strike a blow against our enemies? Yes. Do I think a better target/enemy could've been chosen? Yes.

Jack

16th June 2009, 02:10

Black Dagger

16th June 2009, 03:49

As an 'organisation' almost completely devoid of any theoretical base/platform the one thing it does value above all else, to the point of fetishisation, is simple and direct action.

Just a little FYI, RAAN had a detailed theoretical base/platform document called 'Red and Anarchist Action Network Principles and Direction' but yeah, sorry, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

The Douche

16th June 2009, 13:11

Just a little FYI, RAAN had a detailed theoretical base/platform document called 'Red and Anarchist Action Network Principles and Direction' but yeah, sorry, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

Anybody who wants a copy of this, I have one.

BabylonHoruv

16th June 2009, 23:46

Anybody who wants a copy of this, I have one.

I'd like a copy please.

The Douche

17th June 2009, 01:24

I'd like a copy please.

Email sent.

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 03:17

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 03:37

Please don't post spam images in the serious form ay? Your post is not contributing anything serious, you're just making fun of another user.

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 03:44

Please don't post spam images in the serious form ay? Your post is not contributing anything serious, you're just making fun of another user.

I'm making fun of RAAN and their calls for violence against other radical groups which have serious pig undertones to me. Trash/delete it if you want, but I expressed my opinion.

manic expression

17th June 2009, 04:16

As we have said before, fuck Leninism. Do I think that the vandalization of the bookstore was something important to carry out? No not really, but do I care if the RCP gets shut down, fucked up, or run out of town, no, no I don't, in fact, I would see that as a victory for the oppressed peoples.

If anyone doubted the consensus that RAAN and its supporters are mindless children seeking attention, let those doubts be put to rest right about now.

By the way, "crews" are for ships and dancing, not politics.

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 04:28

I'm making fun of RAAN and their calls for violence against other radical groups which have serious pig undertones to me. Trash/delete it if you want, but I expressed my opinion.

Yes i'm aware of what you did, i'm just asking you to please use words in future - instead of 'lol' net meme images to express your opinion. They lower the standard of discussion. Feel free to criticise RAAN until the cows come home, i don't really think i'm asking much? Just show respect enough to cmoney to address them directly yourself.

Also, re: manic expression's post above - any more like that and i'll have to call in an admin to start trashing fools. 'Lol, you're a child' is not an acceptable post for the learning forum, if you're not here to be constructive or even contribute to the topic at hand then you're wasting everyone eleses time. I know RAAN brings it out in yall, but try to keep the hatchets at bay huh?

The Douche

17th June 2009, 04:51

I'm making fun of RAAN and their calls for violence against other radical groups which have serious pig undertones to me. Trash/delete it if you want, but I expressed my opinion.

I challenge you to present a piece of literature from RAAN which calls for violence against other "radical groups". The closest you will find is "fuck lenin", a picture of an anarchist shooting lenin.

If anyone doubted the consensus that RAAN and its supporters are mindless children seeking attention, let those doubts be put to rest right about now.

By the way, "crews" are for ships and dancing, not politics.

crew 1 (krhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gif)
n. 1. a. A group of people working together; a gang

Me and my friends constitute a "crew". Based on your failure to understand this I am of course forced to come to the conclusion that you're just a privledged college student leftist with no grasp or understanding of the slang used by us simple proles who you intend to liberate through the science of Marxism-Leninism.

See I can make posts totally irrelevant to the topic and avoid getting into discussions about politics that matter, almost as good as you can.

Fuck off with your flaming. It demonstrates to me that you are incapable of adressing my politics by countering them with your own.

manic expression

17th June 2009, 04:56

Me and my friends constitute a "crew".

Right. You and your friends. Not a political organization with any shred of seriousness.

Fuck off with your flaming. It demonstrates to me that you are incapable of adressing my politics by countering them with your own.You have politics? Let's hear it.

The Douche

17th June 2009, 05:01

Right. You and your friends. Not a political organization with any shred of seriousness.

And yet I have never met many of the people involved in forming the P&D, or the people who smashed up tits salon, or the people who vandalized the RCP bookstore etc. Together our groups of friends form a political disorganization so serious that everybody in the radical left loves to talk about us.

You have politics?

:rolleyes: Still scared to actually adress the issues raised by/politics held by RAAN I see.

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 05:11

I challenge you to present a piece of literature from RAAN which calls for violence against other "radical groups". The closest you will find is "fuck lenin", a picture of an anarchist shooting lenin.

Given that you're here representing RAAN and saying you wouldn't mind if the RCP were shut down (presumably even by agents of the state) and would consider it a victory for oppressed people, and that RAAN did in fact attack the RCP's revolution bookstore I find your challenge a bit baffling.

The Douche

17th June 2009, 05:12

Given that you're here representing RAAN and saying you wouldn't mind if the RCP were shut down (presumably even by agents of the state) and would consider it a victory for oppressed people, and that RAAN did in fact attack the RCP's revolution bookstore I find your challenge a bit baffling.

I would not mind it if the RCP were no more. I wonder what such a sentiment has to do with a "call for violence" (your words) against other "radical groups"?

manic expression

17th June 2009, 05:17

And yet I have never met many of the people involved in forming the P&D, or the people who smashed up tits salon, or the people who vandalized the RCP bookstore etc. Together our groups of friends form a political disorganization so serious that everybody in the radical left loves to talk about us.

OK, that was a self-aggrandizing rant that made no sense. You're conceding what I asserted before: your "crews" don't form a valid political organization at all.

Some people might talk about you, but that's nothing to be proud about if you're a sideshow. No one takes you seriously because of the behavior you're displaying. You objected to my point about "crews", and then you validated it one post later.

You say "fuck Leninism" and give no reasons for it, you say you're a political disorganization, you talk about "fetishes". My first post is being proven in spades by your words.

:rolleyes: Still scared to actually adress the issues raised by/politics held by RAAN I see.

What issues? What politics? There's nothing to address in your posts because there's no substance to it. There is absolutely no reason to doubt my original point: that RAAN is mindlessly seeking attention; to quote one of your supporters, "It doesn't harm us, it just pisses them off." That, really, is what your "politics" boils down to: a joke.

manic expression

17th June 2009, 05:20

I would not mind it if the RCP were no more. I wonder what such a sentiment has to do with a "call for violence" (your words) against other "radical groups"?

Do I think that the vandalization of the bookstore was something important to carry out? No not really, but do I care if the RCP gets shut down, fucked up, or run out of town, no, no I don't, in fact, I would see that as a victory for the oppressed peoples.

As such, they felt it necessary to attack the oponents of liberty and socialism, a feeling which I assume everybody on this forum has.

Do I think it is good when we strike a blow against our enemies? Yes.

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 05:21

I would not mind it if the RCP were no more. I wonder what such a sentiment has to do with a "call for violence" (your words) against other "radical groups"?

No not really, but do I care if the RCP gets shut down, fucked up, or run out of town, no, no I don't, in fact, I would see that as a victory for the oppressed peoples.

Given RAAN's track record are you really surprised that people interpret that as saying "I don't give a shit if RCPers get lynched or arrested". Would you really be surprised if no-one believed you if you denied that is what you meant?

The Douche

17th June 2009, 05:30

OK, that was a self-aggrandizing rant that made no sense. You're conceding what I asserted before: your "crews" don't form a valid political organization at all.

If we are so invalid the why the fuck are people talking about us?

Some people might talk about you, but that's nothing to be proud about if you're a sideshow. No one takes you seriously because of the behavior you're displaying. You objected to my point about "crews", and then you validated it one post later.

Considering the length of the thread every time RAAN is disucussed on here it seems like people take us somewhat seriously at least enough that they we ought to be discussed. I can think of a large number of "serious political organizations" which seem to be far less influential and far less publicized and talked about than RAAN. What did I object to/what "point" did you make about crews/what did I validate?

You say "fuck Leninism" and give no reasons for it, you say you're a political disorganization, you talk about "fetishes". My first post is being proven in spades by your words.

Give no reasons? Do I need to explain myself, you're not new to this shit, son, I'm sure you know the plethora of reasons why anarchists say "fuck lenin". We are a political disorganization. Becuase we require only agreement with a list of principles and directions and the will to act in order to participate. This is the antithesis of political organization as it has come to be known on the left. If the RCP, the PSL, the SWP, or the IWW represent "revolutionary organization" then I am proud to be disorganized, because they have proven to be fucking useless. I did not "talk about fetishes", I explained how RAANs focus/basis on action is not a fetish.

What issues? What politics? There's nothing to address in your posts because there's no substance to it. There is absolutely no reason to doubt my original point: that RAAN is mindlessly seeking attention; to quote one of your supporters, "It doesn't harm us, it just pisses them off." That, really, is what your "politics" boils down to: a joke.

Would you like for me to copy and paste into this thread the 14 page Principles & Directions of RAAN, perhaps you would also like the principles of action posted here?

As to RAAN mindlessly seeking attention? Of course not, I am very mindfully seeking attention. The more people like you rant and rave about how RAAN is a joke, or fucked up, or ruining the left, or clowns or pigs or whatever, the more people are interested in it. I have faith in the politics and ideas of RAANismo and that if people take the time to expose themselves to it then they will agree with it. So keep it up, every time a gang of Stalinists or Leninists in black flags go off on RAAN it potentially creates a new RAANista.:thumbup1:

The Douche

17th June 2009, 05:32

Given RAAN's track record are you really surprised that people interpret that as saying "I don't give a shit if RCPers get lynched or arrested". Would you really be surprised if no-one believed you if you denied that is what you meant?

Do I care, no, still don't. Am I doing it, no, as I said, its not something I feel is worthy of my time. The RCP are not my comrades, they are my enemies.

manic expression

17th June 2009, 05:53

If we are so invalid the why the fuck are people talking about us?

You honestly can't think of a reason? A lot of people talk about the CPUSA because they're a joke, a lot of people talk about MIM because it's a joke, a lot of people talk about the Anti-Germans because they're a joke. A lot of people talk about a lot of things because they're ridiculous and absurd. Your "crew" falls under this category.

Considering the length of the thread every time RAAN is disucussed on here it seems like people take us somewhat seriously at least enough that they we ought to be discussed. I can think of a large number of "serious political organizations" which seem to be far less influential and far less publicized and talked about than RAAN.

RAAN threads are like going to the RevLeft circus. Of course they'll get a lot of responses, so do CPUSA threads. MIM threads used to, but now they're off the radar.

What did I object to/what "point" did you make about crews/what did I validate?

You objected to my questioning your use of "crew" to describe a political group, and then you said you were a political disorganization and that you're a bunch of groups of friends. That validates my original point: you're a bunch of friends, you have no political relevance (by the way, I know a "crew" when I see one, and RAAN isn't even that).

Give no reasons? Do I need to explain myself, you're not new to this shit, son, I'm sure you know the plethora of reasons why anarchists say "fuck lenin".

We're not talking about anarchists in general, we're talking about you and RAAN. You haven't given any reasons for your immature statements so far, and so you have no argument.

We are a political disorganization. Becuase we require only agreement with a list of principles and directions and the will to act in order to participate. This is the antithesis of political organization as it has come to be known on the left. If the RCP, the PSL, the SWP, or the IWW represent "revolutionary organization" then I am proud to be disorganized, because they have proven to be fucking useless. I did not "talk about fetishes", I explained how RAANs focus/basis on action is not a fetish.

This is insipid. ARA does (or did) the same thing in terms of agreement with only a list of principles and directions, but they were an organization. Calling yourself a disorganization means, practically, you don't exist, so obviously you're using really bad terminology off the bat.

Secondly, the IWW (for example) was not useless, and it shows a complete lack of knowlege of the history of the left for you to say that they were (I won't even go into the PSL right now, since your childlike scorn for the IWW is enough to condemn you). The IWW was instrumental in fighting for workers' rights in this country, something your "crew" has no appreciation for because you're a bunch of friends with no political orientation or integrity.

And you did "talk about fetishes" because you talked about them in your post. My point was that the concept is nonsense, not that you think you don't have a fetish; the former is a statement that has relevance, the latter is an unsupported opinion based in a mistaken mindset.

Every argument you just made proved my original post yet again: mindless and attention-seeking.

Would you like for me to copy and paste into this thread the 14 page Principles & Directions of RAAN, perhaps you would also like the principles of action posted here?

No, I wouldn't, I'd like YOU to address the issues in a reasonable and mature manner, something you've been unable to do as of yet.

As to RAAN mindlessly seeking attention? Of course not, I am very mindfully seeking attention. The more people like you rant and rave about how RAAN is a joke, or fucked up, or ruining the left, or clowns or pigs or whatever, the more people are interested in it.

If you actually think that, then you are mindlessly seeking attention.

I have faith in the politics and ideas of RAANismo

That's exactly what you just failed to outline. What politics? What ideas?

manic expression

17th June 2009, 05:54

Do I care, no, still don't. Am I doing it, no, as I said, its not something I feel is worthy of my time. The RCP are not my comrades, they are my enemies.

You don't have comrades, you have a bunch of "friends".

You don't have politics, you have meaningless phrases which were created only in an attempt to get attention and concoct a false feeling of importance.

You don't have a point other than your own absurdity.

Blackscare

17th June 2009, 05:57

If we are so invalid the why the fuck are people talking about us?

You don't have to have valid views to garner attention and discussion, all you have to do is act like a fucking asshole (like these RAANers seem to love to do).

Also, it helps to fan the flames of intrigue when you then attribute these dickish moves to a higher leftist worldview that you only vaguely hint at.

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 05:57

Just an aside, whilst i'm not sure of the utility of pushing for confrontational politics in the here and now - historically speaking there is nothing particularly unsettling about any of this. Indeed, anything that RAAN has done or people claim RAAN has done really does pale in comparison to the violence and persecution perpetuated by individuals and groups RAANs opponents undoubtedly respect/admire/praise. We're talking about torture, murder, imprisonment here. That doesn't discount criticism of RAANs politics in the here and now, but i guess it just means the people throwing stones should make sure their house is stone-proof ya feel me? I.E. step-off. It looks abit silly to be calling out contemporary Leninists (who are not a threat by any means), but for mine it looks just as silly to see self-identified 'Marxist-Leninists' flip their lids over some minor shit, when their forebears boasted about putting their anarchist 'comrades' up against the wall (for real).

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 06:27

but for mine it looks just as silly to see self-identified 'Marxist-Leninists' flip their lids over some minor shit, when their forebears boasted about putting their anarchist 'comrades' up against the wall (for real).

Indeed, after anarchist 'comrades' pulled shit like RAAN talks about pulling, but on a wider scale, with actual bombs and casualties, and during a civil war with the forces of reaction. I'd rather not see a repeat, but that largely depends on our esteemed 'comrades'.

You seem to falsely assume that I feel on some level that RAAN and those with similar views are revolutionary and thus 'comrades', so I can try to guilt trip them into making nice with wicked 'leninists'. In reality I'm as hostile to their politics as they are to mine, because I've got my own interpretation of history and I don't automatically buy the rhetoric of individuals that make themselves out to sound like innocent victims and ultra-revolutionaries. What did shock me was the statements by RAANistas that I believe, no matter their attempts to wriggle out of it, would justify both criminal and state violence against groups they consider vanguardist and thus reactionary. No matter my distaste for certain political tendencies amongst the radical left I consider violence and tacit approval of repression against radical groups beyond the pale.

I wonder how long it'd take you to call for my banning or restriction if I went around making hyper-macho posts about how members of (insert anarchist group) should be beaten and sabotaged and how I wouldn't mind if they were "shut down" (presumably by the only organization with the wherewithal to shut down a radical group: the state).

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 06:41

Indeed, after anarchist 'comrades' pulled shit like RAAN talks about pulling, but on a wider scale, with actual bombs and casualties, and during a civil war with the forces of reaction. I'd rather not see a repeat, but that largely depends on our esteemed 'comrades'.

You're kidding right?

Anarchist press was outlawed, anarchists were kept in prison without trial, exiled and murdered - in self-defence, the poor vulernable red army/state :lol: I guess these same policies employed in Spain, where the approach of the CNT to communist activity was conciliatory to a fault also took place in the context of self-defence?

You seem to falsely assume that I feel on some level that RAAN and those with similar views are revolutionary and thus 'comrades', so I can try to guilt trip them into making nice with wicked 'leninists'.

I didn't assume that AT ALL, i was just saying there is an element of hypocrisy here given many of the people complaining about RAAN are also supporters of regimes, of individuals and groups that were responsible for much worse. That's all, i just find that amusing - like imagining what the response of the same people might have been to their icons and heroes, if they had been alive when they were getting their political persecution thing on.

would justify both criminal and state violence against groups they consider vanguardist and thus reactionary.

I have a hard time believing that, quote please.

No matter my distaste for certain political tendencies amongst the radical left I consider violence and tacit approval of repression against radical groups beyond the pale.

In that case, i welcome your renewed critique of the Soviet union, and of communist forces in Spain.

I wonder how long it'd take you to call for my banning or restriction if I went around making hyper-macho posts about how members of (insert anarchist group) should be beaten and sabotaged and how I wouldn't mind if they were "shut down" (presumably by the only organization with the wherewithal to shut down a radical group: the state).

The thing is... that never really took place. There was an image on the RAAN site with lenin getting shot, c'est tout. No bragging and threatening posts so what you're saying really isn't comparable.

Glenn Beck

17th June 2009, 06:46

I have a hard time believing that, quote please.

. . .

The thing is... that never really took place. There was an image on the RAAN site with lenin getting shot, c'est tout. No bragging and threatening posts so what you're saying really isn't comparable.

For God's sake, read this thread and the posts manic and myself quoted.

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 06:50

Black Dagger

17th June 2009, 08:26

Like a parade of marxist dictators and regimes? I'm sorry what? Intra-leftist violence is a fact of history, whilst not condoning it - it's plainly hypocritical to whinge about the non-existent violence of RAAN whilst endorsing, regimes, parties, individuals etc. who were actually responsible for serious political violence against an entire movement.

The Douche

17th June 2009, 14:07

Sorry, but i don't think i read things the same way as you. What i'm asking you is to provide quotes that YOU think says those things, i'm assuming i know much more about RAAN's politics than you do, i.e. that RAAN would not endorse state-violence against leftists, state persecution etc. Which is what you were implying. Also i suspect you may be conflating 'RAAN' with an individual in this thread (cmoney).

They contend that since I made a statement saying I don't care what happens to the RCP (to include their being run out of town, fucked up, shut down etc) that I clearly would be ok with state violence used against them. They then pointed out that there was no need for me to defend myself against such claims. So I didn't, it doesn't matter how I respond to such an (absurd) accusation, they will continue to hold that "belief" (really they may or may not believe it, its just slander).

You honestly can't think of a reason? A lot of people talk about the CPUSA because they're a joke, a lot of people talk about MIM because it's a joke, a lot of people talk about the Anti-Germans because they're a joke. A lot of people talk about a lot of things because they're ridiculous and absurd. Your "crew" falls under this category.

Most people know RAAN is 100 times more politically relevant than those groups, but I wouldn't expect you to admit that. My crew doesn't get talked about on here. RAAN is an entity seperate, but related to my crew.

You objected to my questioning your use of "crew" to describe a political group, and then you said you were a political disorganization and that you're a bunch of groups of friends. That validates my original point: you're a bunch of friends, you have no political relevance (by the way, I know a "crew" when I see one, and RAAN isn't even that).

You're right, RAAN is not a crew, nor did I say it was, and if I did then I misspoke. The CWS is a crew, which is affiliated with RAAN. There are also collectives and affinity groups affiliated with RAAN. In my town we happend to use a crew structure to form a base for our political activity, because previously both the party and the collective methods had failed.

We're not talking about anarchists in general, we're talking about you and RAAN. You haven't given any reasons for your immature statements so far, and so you have no argument.

What are you getting at here? You want the reasons I disagree with Leninism? I'll fucking lay them out for you, but it would be a waste of our time, because you already know them.

This is insipid. ARA does (or did) the same thing in terms of agreement with only a list of principles and directions, but they were an organization. Calling yourself a disorganization means, practically, you don't exist, so obviously you're using really bad terminology off the bat.

The ARA is a poor example to use of somebody who a political organization should emulate. They are practically dead now (mostly because they refused to involve themselves in politics) and they have some very questionable methods. Correct, we do not, practically, exist, RAAN exists only where it is created. It is an action network. So if you don't make it, if you don't take action, it is not there, it does not exist.

Secondly, the IWW (for example) was not useless, and it shows a complete lack of knowlege of the history of the left for you to say that they were (I won't even go into the PSL right now, since your childlike scorn for the IWW is enough to condemn you). The IWW was instrumental in fighting for workers' rights in this country, something your "crew" has no appreciation for because you're a bunch of friends with no political orientation or integrity

I'm sorry for not making it clear that I was referring to the current incarnation of the IWW. The IWW of the 20s made very important gains for the working class of this country towards building a better world for them and make great strides towards revolution. Now however, they are vitrually irrelevant, yet are still using the same tactics, plans, and politics that they used 100 years ago. That is what my criticsism was directed towards, and again I apologize for not making that clear.

And you did "talk about fetishes" because you talked about them in your post. My point was that the concept is nonsense, not that you think you don't have a fetish; the former is a statement that has relevance, the latter is an unsupported opinion based in a mistaken mindset.

Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about here. I said RAAN did not have a fetish for action. What is your issue with that statement?

No, I wouldn't, I'd like YOU to address the issues in a reasonable and mature manner, something you've been unable to do as of yet.

Maybe you ought to raise the issues, instead of flaming and general crying?

That's exactly what you just failed to outline. What politics? What ideas?

If you want to state in a rational way, your issues with/questions about RAAN's politics I will be glad to respond in kind.

Also i suspect you may be conflating 'RAAN' with an individual in this thread (cmoney).

Doing so would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what RAAN is. The only thing that makes me a RAANista is the agreement with the P&D and an affinity for the culture that has been built up. Plenty of other RAANistas are free disagree with me on many issues. I'm sure some even oppose things I and other RAANistas have done, but they can see that they are in line with the P&D.

Wanted Man

17th June 2009, 20:43

I think RAAN is full of shit too, but BD is essentially right. These guys are just more open about it than most. Their shit politics are hardly worth validating. Anyone who is worried about them, should just take a hint from them and "run them out of town, fuck them up or shut them down".

Red October

17th June 2009, 21:42

I definitely remember part of that "Fuck Lenin" flier on the RAAN site before it went down included something about beating up Leninists, which sounds a lot like a threat. Also, I've seen pictures of RAAN kids imitating "gangsta shots" while wearing an IWW shirt: lulz.

Whatever you think of a "rival" leftist group's politics being oppressive or anti-working class, threatening them with violence is ridiculously unproductive. Where I am, there is a group that's really into Mao and Stalin and all that shit to the point that the local anarchist group I'm in can't work with them because lots of stuff they do is totally against us and freedom, etc. So we just don't work with them, we don't throw shit at them or threaten to beat them up. There's no need to bring ridiculous highschool drama type stuff into the leftist movement.

Wanted Man

17th June 2009, 21:50

Communists reject violence within the revolutionary movement.
Agreed. Although one might wonder how they are "within the revolutionary movement" in any way.

@Red October: what I find funny is that these guys are now basically denying what was written in the "Fuck Lenin" thing. I thought they didn't give a shit what people thought of them? I thought they were a tough "gang". "We will hunt you at your conferences." :lol:

manic expression

17th June 2009, 22:11

Most people know RAAN is 100 times more politically relevant than those groups,

It's both funny and pathetic that you actually believe this.

You're right, RAAN is not a crew, nor did I say it was,

You said it was a political disorganization, and then defended the term "crew" as a label of RAAN. You probably have no idea what your position is on this.

and if I did then I misspoke. The CWS is a crew, which is affiliated with RAAN. There are also collectives and affinity groups affiliated with RAAN. In my town we happend to use a crew structure to form a base for our political activity, because previously both the party and the collective methods had failed.[/QUOTE[

The party method has made revolutions, organized the working class to further its interests and combated capitalism and imperialism at every page over the past century. "Crews" sail ships and have dance battles.

[QUOTE]What are you getting at here? You want the reasons I disagree with Leninism? I'll fucking lay them out for you, but it would be a waste of our time, because you already know them.

I'm getting at the FACT that you haven't outlined an actual reason for despising Leninism. I'm getting at the FACT that you have not a single shred of mature or serious politics.

The ARA is a poor example to use of somebody who a political organization should emulate. They are practically dead now (mostly because they refused to involve themselves in politics) and they have some very questionable methods.

Go back and read what I wrote, you obviously failed to comprehend my point. No, seriously, go back and read it, I'll judge your response based on your ability to avoid your previous mistake of complete obliviousness.

Correct, we do not, practically, exist, RAAN exists only where it is created. It is an action network. So if you don't make it, if you don't take action, it is not there, it does not exist.

That makes no sense. Are you saying RAAN is a verb and not a noun? That's not how you've been the word throughout this thread.

I'm sorry for not making it clear that I was referring to the current incarnation of the IWW.

OK, but the IWW isn't a political party, it's a union. Are you suggesting that the institution of the working-class union is outdated and ineffective today?

Sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about here. I said RAAN did not have a fetish for action. What is your issue with that statement?

My issue is that it's a bizarre concept that you've failed to describe on any meaningful level.

Maybe you ought to raise the issues, instead of flaming and general crying?

See post #36. Perhaps you could read it this time. I'll give you notes if you need them.

If you want to state in a rational way, your issues with/questions about RAAN's politics

Again, I can't decide whether it's funny or pathetic that you actually believe that you have politics.

Jack

17th June 2009, 23:00

THe IWW is barely a union to be honest. I would say that only like 20% of the members are in an actual IWW unionized workplace.

BabylonHoruv

17th June 2009, 23:57

If anyone doubted the consensus that RAAN and its supporters are mindless children seeking attention, let those doubts be put to rest right about now.

By the way, "crews" are for ships and dancing, not politics.

And parties are for getting drunk and dancing. A crew usefully delineates a specific unit of people, as distinct from a party, a coven, a gang, or many other units. A crew is a relatively small unit, and is engaged in action. Generally a bit larger than a cell, which is another unit commonly found among direct action groups.

BabylonHoruv

17th June 2009, 23:57

Right. You and your friends. Not a political organization with any shred of seriousness.
.

you prefer working with your enemies?

BabylonHoruv

18th June 2009, 00:02

BabylonHoruv

18th June 2009, 00:05

Indeed, after anarchist 'comrades' pulled shit like RAAN talks about pulling, but on a wider scale, with actual bombs and casualties, and during a civil war with the forces of reaction. I'd rather not see a repeat, but that largely depends on our esteemed 'comrades'.

You seem to falsely assume that I feel on some level that RAAN and those with similar views are revolutionary and thus 'comrades', so I can try to guilt trip them into making nice with wicked 'leninists'. In reality I'm as hostile to their politics as they are to mine, because I've got my own interpretation of history and I don't automatically buy the rhetoric of individuals that make themselves out to sound like innocent victims and ultra-revolutionaries. What did shock me was the statements by RAANistas that I believe, no matter their attempts to wriggle out of it, would justify both criminal and state violence against groups they consider vanguardist and thus reactionary. No matter my distaste for certain political tendencies amongst the radical left I consider violence and tacit approval of repression against radical groups beyond the pale.

I wonder how long it'd take you to call for my banning or restriction if I went around making hyper-macho posts about how members of (insert anarchist group) should be beaten and sabotaged and how I wouldn't mind if they were "shut down" (presumably by the only organization with the wherewithal to shut down a radical group: the state).

OOOH! I am fairly certain this is a reference to Spain. I'd love to see a good discussion on the Spanish war here. Preferably between CMoney and Gonzeau, since they both evidently think the other is a supporter of terrorism.

Just who resorted to bombs and casualties first is a question that I really doubt is ever going to be settled.

BabylonHoruv

18th June 2009, 00:08

Communists reject violence within the revolutionary movement.

Which communists? Certainly not Leninists. Look at Krondstadt

manic expression

18th June 2009, 02:52

you prefer working with your enemies?
I prefer working with serious revolutionaries. A bunch of friends is a bunch of friends, not a political organization. I look forward to your next 3 posts in a row.

BabylonHoruv

18th June 2009, 03:09

I prefer working with serious revolutionaries. A bunch of friends is a bunch of friends, not a political organization. I look forward to your next 3 posts in a row.

I do that when I haven't read the thread in a while. I figure it is easier to read than one big huge post addressing everything I haven't replied to yet.

I prefer working with serious revolutionaries who are also my friends. If they aren't the possibility of sacrificing one another for political ends seems much more attractive.

manic expression

18th June 2009, 03:14

I prefer working with serious revolutionaries

Then you already disqualified RAAN; that's my point here.

I do that when I haven't read the thread in a while. I figure it is easier to read than one big huge post addressing everything I haven't replied to yet.

Fair enough.

StalinFanboy

18th June 2009, 21:40

They openly advocate attacking Marxists
Goddamn, research before you spout off.

RAAN is militant anti-Leninist. Nachie is a Marxist.

Anyway, I'm a part of RAAN. The hub is down at the moment, and we are in the process of getting it back up (slowly). If you anyone has any questions they can PM me.

StalinFanboy

18th June 2009, 21:43

I'm a RAANista, I can answer any questions you have and I have a lot of the original documents.

And my only response to most of the shit talk in this thread:

"lol".

And those of you who called RAAN a "street gang". I'm comfortable with that, and that is essentially how my crew operates.
Ah, beat me to the thread.

"To any moral preoccupation,to any concern for purity, we substitute the collective working out of a strategy. Only that which impedes the increase of our strength is bad. We are not afraid of forming gangs; and can only laugh at those who will decry us a mafia."

This sums it up pretty well. Organizing in crews works. That's all that's important.

EDIT: No one is allowed to say shit on RAAN unless they've read this stuff.

http://poisonedcandy.com/RAAN/principles.html

Thanks.

Nachie

18th June 2009, 22:29

hey y'all, just poppin in for a second here

the RAAN hub website is currently being put back together, as evidenced by the fact that the domain will now at least take you to a blank "CALLMEIN" page instead of a 404 error. unfortunately the person who is working on this has had complications while undergoing surgery and is having to take a break. it's not really in a big rush anyway, kinda like everything we do. shoestring budget, loyal friends and good times.

big ups to cmoney, bring it! and anybody else on here who has been doing a good job of explaining our positions and praxis. i found the quality of discussion on revleft to have seriously tanked a couple years ago and stopped using it, but since interest in raan periodically pops up here i am thankful that there are still some folks around to answer questions and such. my hope is that when the hub is back up, the most active internet participants can work on a strategy to more effectively convey the organization's message. we will definitely have some revamped "about us" texts and hopefully this time a forum that doesn't crash every three months (but i'm not getting my hopes up)

ps. black dagger is fucking sweet even if they're not raan fam :D

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

19th June 2009, 11:36

Attacking fellow leftists is doing the pigs' work. RAAN should stick to trashing cop cars.

The Douche

19th June 2009, 13:25

Sorry I haven't replyed in a while, I was busy informing on you serious revolutionaries to my FBI contact.:rolleyes:

I'll respond to specific posts when I get home from work tonight.

Bring it, check your PMs!

Leo

20th June 2009, 10:45

See above: "Yes, a group attacking leftists at will in a non-revolutionary period of capitalism and a group with political power defending it against those who wish to destroy it are entirely the same. http://www.revleft.com/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif:rolleyes:"

The claim that the Kronstadt sailors wanted to "destroy" workers' political power or the Bolshevik Party is nothing but a disgraceful lie. If anything they were trying to defend the workers' political power and save the party.

Leo

20th June 2009, 11:33

The rebellion was supported by the Whites

As much as Lenin was supported by German imperialism :rolleyes:

Stepan Petrichenko, the main leader of the rebellion, tried to join the Whites before the rebellion. After the rebellion he fled to White-controlled Finland where he joined with the Whites and advocated a military dictatorship rule in place of the Bolshevik-controlled government.

Actually he became a Soviet spy after the uprising.

The Douche

20th June 2009, 15:49

So are there any actual questions about RAAN cause I'm bored with this "arguement". If somebody wants to raise an actual, serious issue about the politics of RAAN, or ask a serious question then I'll answer it. But I'm not going to continue running around in circles being insulted by individuals who not only don't understand (there's nothing wrong with that) but who refuse to understand, and would rather work on assumptions, or just insults.

Invariance

21st June 2009, 14:48

1: Lame how leftists get worked up over what is a totally insignificant group which conducts totally insignificant actions (this isn't just a criticism of RAAN).

2: Also lame that RAAN uses the actions of communists 90 to 70 years ago to justify their own violence (rhetoric or otherwise) against fellow revolutionaries – and they say we’re living in the past.

3: Despite what I think of anarchists, I would never attack one, damage their property or act in an aggressive/violent manner to any worker or anarchist to boost my feelings of superiority regarding my own views – even if communists did so 90 years ago in what were, frankly, totally different circumstances. Not everyone who thinks that Lenin and the Bolsheviks were a positive force agrees with everything they did or said (indeed, the only way I think it can be understood is in its historical setting), or for that matter think that we must follow their actions to a ‘T’ (which would fly in the face of everything Marx & Lenin argued). Just like no anarchist deserves to be attacked over the anti-Semitic comments of Bakunin or the capitulation of Kropotkin to national chauvinism or the sexism of Proudhon or whatever. Thankfully, we can see that people are not just caricatures of dead men or ideologies, but are individuals which deserve to be treated on an individual basis. What is so hard to understand about that?

The Douche

21st June 2009, 22:50

1: Lame how leftists get worked up over what is a totally insignificant group which conducts totally insignificant actions (this isn't just a criticism of RAAN).

RAAN is not anymore insignificant than the vast majority of leftist groups in the US. And that is not a testament to the strength of RAAN so much as the weakness of the left. If we're so "insignificant" then I challenge the you to proove that.

2: Also lame that RAAN uses the actions of communists 90 to 70 years ago to justify their own violence (rhetoric or otherwise) against fellow revolutionaries – and they say we’re living in the past.

Wrong, we (at least I) do not use the actions of communists any number of years ago to justify anything. My justification is their advocacy of a system which is counter-revolutionary, exploitative, and repressive. I don't say Leninists are living in the past, I just say they are wrong.

3: Despite what I think of anarchists, I would never attack one, damage their property or act in an aggressive/violent manner to any worker or anarchist to boost my feelings of superiority regarding my own views – even if communists did so 90 years ago in what were, frankly, totally different circumstances. Not everyone who thinks that Lenin and the Bolsheviks were a positive force agrees with everything they did or said (indeed, the only way I think it can be understood is in its historical setting), or for that matter think that we must follow their actions to a ‘T’ (which would fly in the face of everything Marx & Lenin argued). Just like no anarchist deserves to be attacked over the anti-Semitic comments of Bakunin or the capitulation of Kropotkin to national chauvinism or the sexism of Proudhon or whatever. Thankfully, we can see that people are not just caricatures of dead men or ideologies, but are individuals which deserve to be treated on an individual basis. What is so hard to understand about that?

I don't believe that most anarchists think Leninists are that dogmatic, I certainly don't, it is very easy to see that all of the tendencies within the communist and anarchist movements have evolved since the past revolutionary waves. My critiscism, again, of Leninism is not that it has "passed its prime" or is somehow outdated, I maintain that it is and always has been a failed theory which results in further oppression of the masses. It is wholly against, on a theoretical, and practical level what I believe in. I oppose Leninism for the same reason I oppose liberalism or any other tendency which I consider to be an "opposing ideology".