The Great American Novel

[Random Precision]

According to Wiki, the concept of the great American novel is at the same time "the Holy Grail" for American writers, i.e., the best American novel ever written, the American response to the "national epics" of other nations, and the novel that best represents the "spirit of life" in the United States.

With that in mind, I am starting this poll to determine which one it really is. For my own convenience, I'm only including by name the most frequently occurring candidates which I myself have read. If "other", please share.

PS- anyone voting for Catcher in the Rye, I will stab you in the face with a soldering iron. :)

[More Fire for the People]

Some candidates:
Grapes of Wrath
The Great Gatsby
Moby Dick

It's hard to pick a great American novel, because so much of our literature is in the form of the short story.

[amandevsingh]

I loved 'To kill a Mockingbird', thinking about 'The Grapes of Wrath' and 'The Jungle'

[Random Precision]

I think it's curious that a few of the frequently mentioned candidates for the Great American Novel do not take place in the United States, or do so only partially. Moby-Dick begins in the US but the plot unveils at sea, among a very international crew. The Sun Also Rises takes place in France and Spain, Slaughterhouse-Five skips between the US, Germany and the planet Tralfamadore, and Gravity's Rainbow skips around all over Europe. The denouement of On the Road occurs while the protagonist is in Mexico...

As for me, I voted Gatsby in the end despite being torn between it and Moby-Dick, Huck Finn and The Sound and the Fury.

[JimmyJazz]

What about Catch-22 and Johnny Got His Gun?

I'd say without question though that it has to be something dealing with the African-American experience. That really is the defining characteristic of America--they are the enduring victims of Americanism. So I voted for Invisible Man out of the options there.

Grapes of Wrath, The Sun Also Rises and Great Gatsby are good for the interwar period, but definitely do not represent American history as a whole. Same deal with Slaughterhouse Five and Catcher in the Rye for the postwar period, and Huck Finn for the gilded age. The race issue is the only thing I can think of that has been there from colonial days right down to 2009.

Edit: something that captures the "frontier spirit" could also conceivably represent American history from the beginning to the present. Jack London maybe?

[Random Precision]

What about Catch-22 and Johnny Got His Gun?

As I said, I only named the ones I have read. Though those are serious oversights in the reading I have done up till now.


I'd say without question though that it has to be something dealing with the African-American experience. That really is the defining characteristic of America--they are the enduring victims of Americanism. So I voted for Invisible Man out of the options there.

This is a good observation. Invisible Man is great because it encapsulates the black experience in America, and tells about how they are invisible in the south as well as the north, in a plantation as well as a school and a factory, and even in the Communist Party itself.


Grapes of Wrath, The Sun Also Rises and Great Gatsby are good for the interwar period, but definitely do not represent American history as a whole.

Well, I see what you're saying. I picked Gatsby though because the American Dream is something that has existed throughout the history of the United States in different forms, and I think Fitzgerald was the first to tell us how just how empty it was with Gatsby. In terms of the national "ethos", that is huge.

[Il Medico]

One why only one Hemingway, and not even his best, in my opinion.

Also, you may not know this, but there is a book called The Great American Novel by Philip Roth, that's what I thought the tread was going to be on.

BTW, out of the choices, I picked the Sun Also Rises. However, in my opinion A Farewell to Arms and For Whom the Bell Tolls were better.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I voted Grapes of Wrath because to me it is most represents a real "National Epic".

The American experience for the poor has always been the story of migrants loosing everything to capitalism (think the Irish immigrants, Eastern European Jewish immigrants, and immigrants of today leaving neo-liberal destruction in Latin America. The Joads are lured to California by stories of plentiful jobs - but when they show up, they are pushed into the agricultural proletariat of California's big agricultural system and beaten by racist cops and threatened by middle class fascists. Also "In Dubious Battle" is a riviting story of union struggle in California farms.

Runners up:

Huck Finn: the first book I read in High School that I remember actually getting into and still one of my favorites. It deals with American hypocracy and racism but also falls into the American myth of the induvidual vs. society.

Catch-22: Great alligory for post-war American Capitalism that basically suggests that after the war, US capitalism (in the form of Milo) has taken the place of Hitler for Europe. Also funny and anti-war as hell! I've probably read this book more times than any other work of fiction.

[Killfacer]

Grapes of Wrath for moi

[Random Precision]

One why only one Hemingway, and not even his best, in my opinion.

Seemed unfair to give him more than one when Faulkner, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald as well could put up more than one candidate- and however would I begin deciding those?

I chose The Sun Also Rises because it's widely regarded as one of his best works and of those it's the one that deals the most with the "American ethos" as it reacts to WW1 and the aftermath, despite not actually being set in the States.

I agree that For Whom the Bell Tolls is better, though it's shit politically. I haven't read Farewell to Arms. But all of Hemingway feels sorta the same to me. :mellow:

[Pawn Power]

The Great Gatsby is the literary equivalent of a enormous pile of shit. Perhaps the widest read piece of crap. Because of these two things, maybe it could take the prestigious position of 'The Great American Novel.'

However, if we actually want to judge the work by quality and its subsequent influence on American society The Jungle, The Grapes of Wrath, Huckleberry Finn, and To Kill a Mocking Bird are much better choices. Though I am biased toward Vonnegut so would ad Slaughterhouse-5.

[New Tet]

For my money, The Magic Journey by John Nichols. There's even a chapter titled "What Is To Be Done?"

[JimmyJazz]

I agree that For Whom the Bell Tolls is better, though it's shit politically.

Really? It's been a few years, I can't remember...

[which doctor]

Not that I think there can only be one great american novel, but I'm going to nominate You Can't Go Home Again by Thomas Wolfe.

[Trystan]

Other: Ham on Rye by Charles Bukowski. One of the greatest books of "realism" . . . ever.

[Trystan]

I agree that For Whom the Bell Tolls is better, though it's shit politically.

Definitely. Did anyone notice his contempt for the anarchists ("those of the red and black scarves"), by the way? They all come across as being ignorant and dumb.

And I think most of the characters were a bit wooden (apart from Pablo and the older woman). The American and that girlfriend of his were especially poor.

[berlitz23]

Faulkner was the premier American Writer, his ouevre far superior to any of those authors listed up there and I have read all those books.

[Random Precision]

Really? It's been a few years, I can't remember...

Yeah. Basically it's nothing more than shallow anti-fascism. As Trystan said, the anarchists are portrayed as ignorant church-burners, while he edges around the crimes of the USSR. There's a scene where two of Jordan's compatriots encounter André Marty, a purge-happy leader of the International Brigades (can't remember what Hemingway named him) and he is about to have them shot. However Hemingway passes it off as Marty's personal insanity rather than a very real problem with the Soviet presence in the Civil War.

[Pawn Power]

Not that I think there can only be one great american novel, but I'm going to nominate You Can't Go Home Again by Thomas Wolfe.

Thomas Wolfe is a real prick.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I never really enjoyed "Gatsby" - but it's winning what's the appeal or why do people think it's the more representative of America? Because capitalism is presented as a gangster?

I honestly get so bored by books about elites in their elite social circles (from "Jane Eyre" to "Gatsby" to "Less than Zero") even when they are critical of the upper class.

The only time I want to read about a dinner party of society-types is if there will be a murder which an eccentric detective of some type will have to solve ... or if zombies eat everyone like in "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies".

[which doctor]

Thomas Wolfe is a real prick.
So what? I'm a prick too.

[x359594]

In terms of ambition I'd name From Here to Eternity by James Jones as a contender for the "Great American novel." For those who've only seen the regressive movie version, put your memories of that aside.

At 800 pages it addresses race, class, anti-semitism, heterosexual relations, homosexuality, religion and working class rebellion. One of the main characters is a Wobbly who appears in the section about life in the stockade and gets a lot of good anti-capitalist and anti-establishment dialog.

The book is awkwardly written in places but it's worth reading. Although it takes place in the months before the attack on Pearl Harbor in the American colony of Hawai'i, it's clear that Jones was talking about the prosperous and privileged contemporary US of the 1950s, and linking the origins of that prosperity to the post-war US hegemony that was established in the 1940s.

[black magick hustla]

Mccarthy's blood meridian novel is THE American novel.

[Revy]

What about The Wonderful Wizard of Oz?

Maybe that would be a serious contender for a sub-category, the Great American Children's Novel. Its influence is above and beyond.

I've thought about it, and it might have elements which suggest a criticism of the idea of the "American Dream".

Here's an article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful_Wizard_ of_Oz) which goes into detail about possible political interpretations.

It's interesting, I think the scarecrow is the farmer, or farmworker, the "Tin Woodman" (called Tin Man in the movie) is the industrial/factory worker. The Witches of the four corners might be the railroads, and the Wizard of Oz is probably the President. Maybe that's reading too much into it, though.

[Vahanian]

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey is my pick

[MarxSchmarx]

It's interesting, I think the scarecrow is the farmer, or farmworker, the "Tin Woodman" (called Tin Man in the movie) is the industrial/factory worker. The Witches of the four corners might be the railroads, and the Wizard of Oz is probably the President. Maybe that's reading too much into it, though.

I was always taught it was a piece of satire that had something rather arcane to do with the silverback movement, that's what was the contradiction in the yellow brick road and "over the rainbow" (all dealing with a gold backed currency) and the idea of the magician being a paper tiger, and how it was meant as a piece of satire that the movie made into a totally different cultural phenomena

[Angry Young Man]

According to Wiki, the concept of the great American novel is at the same time "the Holy Grail" for American writers, i.e., the best American novel ever written, the American response to the "national epics" of other nations, and the novel that best represents the "spirit of life" in the United States.

So it's a nationalistic literary canon which excludes poetry (you big shitters) and drama (you immense shitters)?

[fiddlesticks]

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey is my pick

Ditto.

[which doctor]

So it's a nationalistic literary canon which excludes poetry (you big shitters) and drama (you immense shitters)?
there's nothing inherently nationalistic about the great american novel, but it is a great american novel for a reason as it portrays life in america

[MarxSchmarx]

So it's a nationalistic literary canon which excludes poetry (you big shitters) and drama (you immense shitters)?

I see no reason why poetry and drama should automatically be excluded because something is a "national epic". The Tale of Sundiata (Mali), for instance, is probably best categorized as poetry, as are the the homeric epics of Greece. The wayang-wong of Bali is, and has always been, a theater production.

It remains to be seen whether a talented poet or playwrite can produce a masterpiece that sums up the accomplishments of a people. In fact, some will argue that Coppola has already done this.

[Angry Young Man]

Yes, but the great American novel. Anyhoo, the spirit of American life, as with any culture, evolves. England, for example, is nothing like what you read about in Beowulf.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

What about Catch-22 and Johnny Got His Gun?

Catch-22 is definitely waaay up there.

One why only one Hemingway, and not even his best, in my opinion.

Also, you may not know this, but there is a book called The Great American Novel by Philip Roth, that's what I thought the tread was going to be on.

Yeah, I've not read that one, but I think Roth's about as close to a Great American Novelist as they come. He'd definitely get my vote for the Great Jewish-American Novelist, anyway.
Umm, Sylvia Plath - the Bell Jar? Does that get a place anywhere?

[x359594]

...Sylvia Plath - the Bell Jar? Does that get a place anywhere?

The "Great American Novel" seems to be a male dominated endeavor, but Gertrude Stein's The Making of Americans is a pretty good contender.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Catcher in the Rye is my favourite novel of all time so it gets my vote. Closely followed by One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest which has been mentioned a couple of times.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I never really enjoyed "Gatsby" - but it's winning what's the appeal or why do people think it's the more representative of America? Because capitalism is presented as a gangster?

I honestly get so bored by books about elites in their elite social circles (from "Jane Eyre" to "Gatsby" to "Less than Zero") even when they are critical of the upper class.


I have to say I totally agree. I started reading it earlier on this week and I just cannot bother to keep on reading. Even though Fitzgerald is critical of this bourgeois lifestyle every thing they say and do sickens me. I need to have some affinity with the protagonist in a novel else the book is wasted on me.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes, but the great American novel. Anyhoo, the spirit of American life, as with any culture, evolves. England, for example, is nothing like what you read about in Beowulf.

Damn it - I have to cancel my travel plans again. At least it saves me the trouble of having to check my word-horde at the gate. Damn, and I was looking forward to that famous Meade I've heard so much about too.

Generally national epics have been overtly nationalistic but it also depends on the era when they were written. Classical and imitation classical epics tend to be about the founding of the nation and what defines the "national" charter.

At other times, National epics have also been very anti-nation and pro-populace: Inferno and Canterbury Tales were written in the "national" language and are generally critical of their local rulers as well as of the church and feudal structures.

[Random Precision]

The "Great American Novel" seems to be a male dominated endeavor, but Gertrude Stein's The Making of Americans is a pretty good contender.

Also Wise Blood by Flannery O'Connor.

[Angry Young Man]

I have to say I totally agree. I started reading it earlier on this week and I just cannot bother to keep on reading. Even though Fitzgerald is critical of this bourgeois lifestyle every thing they say and do sickens me. I need to have some affinity with the protagonist in a novel else the book is wasted on me.

I'm also of this faction. Given that the novel is all about plot, what interest is there in the life of somebody who has nothing but luxury and oftentimes totally miserable while suffering nothing.

Mind you, I have this book of Pinter essays and somewhere's referenced a play about self-indulgent rich people, but that sounds interesting because gradually the 'outside' develops.

And no love for An Inspector Calls? I love it because it shows how the bourgeoisie suffer over nothing. :wub:Priestley. I might even pointlessly draw attention to him being a Yorkshire lad