Holodomer, Ukraine "Genocide"

[Idealism]

I am sure this has been brought up before, though, i could not find it when searching, but if someone does know where it is, please link to it.

I have seen this brought up in other threads, though not fully explained on either side. Mostly I've seen "it was a great atrocity committed by Stalin" or "it was just another bourgeois lie", and i cant say I know enough to know if either of these are true. So I'd like both sides to fully explain their arguments and refutations.

Another point, if this thread is not just a repeat of an older thread, please keep this on just this issue with Ukraine "Genocide", not any other of the problems in the USSR, just so this does not errupt in to another Stalin flaming debate.

For the anti-revisionist side, was there mass (non-man-made) starvation? If so, how is this explained? If not, where does the claim come from? what is your refutation of people like Gareth Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist))?

For the side that claims this was genocide, an intentional act by the USSR government, why would they do such a thing? on your side of the debate, stalin sure didn't mind sending people off to the gulags (dont debate about the gulags, just an example), so why didnt the state just do something like this? Ive heard this book (http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm) has been debunked, where so?

[Prairie Fire]

Comrade,

Here are a few literary sources that might be able to help you out, and some of the only free ones.

For the record, I do not subscribe to the myth of Ukranian "holodomer".

John Puntis, The Ukranian Famine Genocide Myth
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html)

Progressive Labour Party, Hoax of the man made famine in the Ukraine
http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html (http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html)

Selections regarding "Holodomor" from Another View of Stalin, by Ludo Martens

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node68.html#SECTION00800000000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node69.html#SECTION00800100000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node70.html#SECTION00800200000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node71.html#SECTION00800300000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node72.html#SECTION00800400000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node73.html#SECTION00800500000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node74.html#SECTION00800600000000000000

In regards to Conquests work,
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node75.html#SECTION00800700000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node76.html#SECTION00800800000000000000

More from Another View of Stalin
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node77.html#SECTION00800900000000000000
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node78.html#SECTION008001000000000000000

[LeninBalls]

There was mass starvation, and apparently in other places too (like the Caucasus or Volga iirc). But it wasn't an orchestrated famine. The extraction methods, the kulaks and bad agricultural conditions all contributed to this tragedy.

I don't see how it's a "myth", it's pretty obvious that people died because of a lack of food, even from the anti-revisionist side.

[Glenn Beck]

There was mass starvation, and apparently in other places too (like the Caucasus or Volga iirc). But it wasn't an orchestrated famine. The extraction methods, the kulaks and bad agricultural conditions all contributed to this tragedy.

I don't see how it's a "myth", it's pretty obvious that people died because of a lack of food, even from the anti-revisionist side.

What is considered a myth is the story of famine as genocide and the story of famine willfully orchestrated by the Soviet government. This is the Holodomor, the alleged Ukrainian genocide sometimes compared to the very Holocaust.

As far as I know, nobody disputes that there was a famine throughout that part of Europe at the time.

[turquino]

If I remember correctly Gareth Jones wasn`t even in the USSR when he claimed to be. His so-called first hand account of the famine had to have been someone else`s which he then added a journalistic flourish to.

Many of these accounts from travellers about a Holodomore were discredited by the 1970s because they couldn`t be verified or were known to have come from staged nazi propaganda. Unfortunately, many of these discredited claims were dug up in the 1980s with the renewed anti-communist fervor that swept the West, and the truth didn`t matter.

[ComradeOm]

I've made a few posts on this topic ('man-made famine' rather than specific claims of such) in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/stalin-thread-all-t100814/index.html). In particular see this post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1356546&postcount=58)

[Invader Zim]

PF, why not actually quote some proper historians, instead of Martens who pretty much based his entire book on Doug Tottle's work (which is really poor, btw), or would they refute your position?

[The Author]

Interestingly enough, the Dust Bowl of the United States happened to occur around the same time as the so-called "Holodomor," which shows that the famine was part of a global climate pattern. Here's a snippet from a Wikipedia page (can't believe I used Wikipedia, but there you go) describing environmental events throughout Earth's history in recorded time,


1932 to 1937 — Exceptional precipitation absence in northern hemisphere exacerbated by human activities causes the Dust Bowl drought of the US plains and the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 (harsh economic damage in US and widespread death in USSR)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_environmental_events#1930s

I also liked Tottle's work because it was eye-opening and broke the ground on the nature of Hearst propaganda and Ukrainian nationalism, as well as actually taking more of an objective approach to studying this event, rather than throwing in partisan politics- which is what a lot of the "proper historians" commit throughout their work. Of course, other research has been done and if you read and search through comrade Intelligitimate's posts throughout the forums, you get some good information and sources on this event in question.

[Invader Zim]

Interestingly enough, the Dust Bowl of the United States happened to occur around the same time as the so-called "Holodomor," which shows that the famine was part of a global climate pattern. Here's a snippet from a Wikipedia page (can't believe I used Wikipedia, but there you go) describing environmental events throughout Earth's history in recorded time,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_environmental_events#1930s

I also liked Tottle's work because it was eye-opening and broke the ground on the nature of Hearst propaganda and Ukrainian nationalism, as well as actually taking more of an objective approach to studying this event, rather than throwing in partisan politics- which is what a lot of the "proper historians" commit throughout their work. Of course, other research has been done and if you read and search through comrade Intelligitimate's posts throughout the forums, you get some good information and sources on this event in question.

The dust bowl was caused by years of poor farming techniques, primarily failing to employ crop rotation, the catalyst being a drought. The natural causes of famine in the Ukraine depended upon the region, some regions suffered crop failure because of desease, others infestations as a result of unusually wet weather. It is also worth noting that 1936 saw a much more severe drought, yet no famine ensued.