Discussion on INLA and stageism split from WSF

[robbo203]

There are currently over 20 Irish political prisoners in jails in the North and South of Ireland aligned to the Irish National Liberation Army.
Due to a crackdown by the british and Irish governments on the wider Irish Republican Socialist Movement political activists are faced with lengthy prison sentences on trumped up charges.
No evidence is needed to arrest detain charge and sentence political activists in Ireland under the Offences Against the State Act a draconian law which is used to stump the growth of the IRSM as a whole in Ireland.
Even though the INLA has been on a military ceasefire since 1998 there refusal to support or accept the sectarian Good Friday Agreement or the establishment as a whole has lead to situation where decent Republican Socialists are being incarcerated for political activism at the states pleasure.
I would urge members of the forum to take 10 minutes out of your day and pen a letter of solidarity and support the lads as it would be greatly appreciated and I know it would mean the world to them.

All letters or post cards can be sent directly to

E4 Landing
Portlaoise Prison
Dublin Road
Co Laois
Ireland.

Thanks and please take the time to get in contact and I am sure the lads will love to hear from you all.

While I oppose srongly the idea of incarcerating poliical prisoners, I sincerely hope the lads will come to reflect on the utter stupidity and pointlessness of irish, and any other form of, nationalism. A comrade of mine who was an active member of the IRA years ago and was imprisoned by the British state, came to the conclusion while in prison that the cause of Irish republicanism was not worth a dog´s piss and he subsequently left the movement. So there is hope yet for those internees

[IrishWorker]

While I oppose srongly the idea of incarcerating poliical prisoners, I sincerely hope the lads will come to reflect on the utter stupidity and pointlessness of irish, and any other form of, nationalism. A comrade of mine who was an active member of the IRA years ago and was imprisoned by the British state, came to the conclusion while in prison that the cause of Irish republicanism was not worth a dog´s piss and he subsequently left the movement. So there is hope yet for those internees


Although I disagree with some of your post comrade I do not wish this thread to get turned into a slagging match if people are genuinely interested in showing a bit of solidarity with the lads that’s great but labeling there cause pointless and stupid is counter productive in the context of this thread.

You are entitled to your opinion why not open another thread?

[robbo203]

Although I disagree with some of your post comrade I do not wish this thread to get turned into a slagging match if people are genuinely interested in showing a bit of solidarity with the lads that’s great but labeling there cause pointless and stupid is counter productive in the context of this thread.

You are entitled to your opinion why not open another thread?



Well then you should have clarified what you meant by "solidarity". Are you suggesting we should express solidarity for their beliefs or for them as just fellow human beings. As a socialist I have no sympathy whasoever for their nationalist beliefs, as individuals however I can relate to them differently

[Andropov]

Well then you should have clarified what you meant by "solidarity". Are you suggesting we should express solidarity for their beliefs or for them as just fellow human beings. As a socialist I have no sympathy whasoever for their nationalist beliefs, as individuals however I can relate to them differently
So you do not recognise a peoples right to self determination?
This is simple, either the imperial occupation of Ireland is either progressive or not?
If you recgonise that the Imperial Occupation is not progressive then the struggle for National Liberation is progressive and is to be recognised as such.
As Marx, Engels, Connolly, Lenin and Costello all recognised that until National Liberation is achieved then the Imperial Forces within Ireland will for ever be a reactionary force that stifles Working Class mobilisation and stirs up Sectarian tensions when ever it is to their benefit.
To demote the struggle of National Liberation to simple Nationalism is disengenious and shows a complete lack of understanding of the political landscape in Ireland and quite frankly just comes across as bourgeious sensationalism.

Perhaps a moderator could split these posts into a new thread as the original issue will be derailed.

[PeaderO'Donnell]

Well then you should have clarified what you meant by "solidarity". Are you suggesting we should express solidarity for their beliefs or for them as just fellow human beings. As a socialist I have no sympathy whasoever for their nationalist beliefs, as individuals however I can relate to them differently

I have problemns with the IRSM due to their support for the Cuban state.

That said before you start mouthing off you should first examine what exactly it is these soldiers and political prisoners stand for.

The main enemny of the working class in Ireland (and yes we do have other enemnies) is British Capital and its state which is backed up by the neo-colonial regieme in the south. The IRSM correctly state that the fight for national liberation is part (but again only part) of the class struggle and so stand in solidarity with (the vastly working class) broader republican movement in its opposition to British colonialism (in the same way that you would stand in solidarity with striking social democratic workers).

Remember that their founder stated very clearly "my allegiance is too the working clas".

Almost not a day goes past here with some assertation in the capitalist media (always without any evidence) that the forces still opposing colonialism here are involved in criminality, running strip clubs, etc. We are seeing the re-introduction of internment by remand on both sides of the border.

As a socialist you should be thankful that the INLA still exists in that it gives protection to the working class in the occupied six counties against fascist death squads and you should stand in solidarity with fellow working class militants imprisoned for asserting their class independence.

[Pogue]

As a socialist you should be thankful that the INLA still exists in that it gives protection to the working class in the occupied six counties against fascist death squads and you should stand in solidarity with fellow working class militants imprisoned for asserting their class independence.


Wait, so you think the INLA is all that is preventing working class people from getting murdered by fascists? Is the situation actually that bad in the north?



So you do not recognise a peoples right to self determination?
This is simple, either the imperial occupation of Ireland is either progressive or not?
If you recgonise that the Imperial Occupation is not progressive then the struggle for National Liberation is progressive and is to be recognised as such.
As Marx, Engels, Connolly, Lenin and Costello all recognised that until National Liberation is achieved then the Imperial Forces within Ireland will for ever be a reactionary force that stifles Working Class mobilisation and stirs up Sectarian tensions when ever it is to their benefit.
To demote the struggle of National Liberation to simple Nationalism is disengenious and shows a complete lack of understanding of the political landscape in Ireland and quite frankly just comes across as bourgeious sensationalism.



Well essentially the question your asking him is if he is a Leninist or an libertarian socialist. If he is the latter, then the answer to your initial question will be no, because he will recognise that national boundaries are meaningless to the working class, and thus national 'liberation' does not represent liberation for the working class at all.

I don't think an movement stressing national liberation will ever unite the working class in Ireland. Seeing as the sectarian conflict arose from those who didn't believe in a united, sovereign Ireland and those who did, and we've seen years of fighting over it, I don't see what makes you think you can ever hope to acheive it peacefully now. I think the view of the comrade you are questioning and mine would be similar, i.e. that as with every single case of conflict between two 'different' ethnicities, nationalities, etc, in Ireland the class struggle has to be used to unite the working class of the north. I don't see why we should have a whole movement arguing that somehow national liberation is needed ot unite the working class in Ireland, clearly class struggle and conciousness is.

[IrishWorker]

Wait, so you think the INLA is all that is preventing working class people from getting murdered by fascists? Is the situation actually that bad in the north?



Well essentially the question your asking him is if he is a Leninist or an libertarian socialist. If he is the latter, then the answer to your initial question will be no, because he will recognise that national boundaries are meaningless to the working class, and thus national 'liberation' does not represent liberation for the working class at all.

I don't think an movement stressing national liberation will ever unite the working class in Ireland. Seeing as the sectarian conflict arose from those who didn't believe in a united, sovereign Ireland and those who did, and we've seen years of fighting over it, I don't see what makes you think you can ever hope to acheive it peacefully now. I think the view of the comrade you are questioning and mine would be similar, i.e. that as with every single case of conflict between two 'different' ethnicities, nationalities, etc, in Ireland the class struggle has to be used to unite the working class of the north. I don't see why we should have a whole movement arguing that somehow national liberation is needed ot unite the working class in Ireland, clearly class struggle and conciousness is.



Answering your first question comrade sectarian killings are not uncommon we had our last one two weeks ago where a right wing skin head loyalist mob beat to death a man from a "mixed" marriage in Colraine Co Derry.
The INLA are seen as a Armed deterrent to main stream loyalist paramilitary’s.


Secondly it is imposable to be a Marxist in Ireland and ignore the foreign Imperialist occupation of its Northern six county’s this country was invaded the indigenous people of Ireland were oppressed by Brittan for no less than 800 years to ignore this social injustice would be ignorant and historically unjust.
Uniting the class in the Occupied county’s is light years away but the IRSP are doing more educate the Unionist community than any other weekly cross community gatherings are taking place where children from the Falls RD and children from the Shankill RD are brought together and taught that they have more in common than they think. At interface areas IRSP members can be seen mediating between the two community’s trying to defuse potential sectarian confrontations.
I am sure no one in the IRSM are under any illusion that they are going to awake some morning and all divisions within the Irish Working Class will have healed hard work and more hard work building bridges dispelling old myths and social education will unite us and that is what the IRSP understands and is implementing everyday behind the scenes.

[The Deepest Red]

So you do not recognise a peoples right to self determination?
This is simple, either the imperial occupation of Ireland is either progressive or not?
If you recgonise that the Imperial Occupation is not progressive then the struggle for National Liberation is progressive and is to be recognised as such.
As Marx, Engels, Connolly, Lenin and Costello all recognised that until National Liberation is achieved then the Imperial Forces within Ireland will for ever be a reactionary force that stifles Working Class mobilisation and stirs up Sectarian tensions when ever it is to their benefit.
To demote the struggle of National Liberation to simple Nationalism is disengenious and shows a complete lack of understanding of the political landscape in Ireland and quite frankly just comes across as bourgeious sensationalism.

Perhaps a moderator could split these posts into a new thread as the original issue will be derailed.

You seem to suggest that national liberation is a prerequisite of socialism? I take it you therefore agree with the "stages" theory of Stalinism/Maoism? I think it is clear enough from the history of the anti-colonial movement in the 20th century that this is a disastrous policy to adopt.

In relation to the original OP: why were these men imprisoned? Let's be frank about this; the IRSP/INLA does not pose a major or even a minor threat to either of the partionist states in Ireland. Also; the INLA is supposed to be on a ceasefire so why are these men active in that capacity?

[The Deepest Red]

because he will recognise that national boundaries are meaningless to the working class

That is simply untrue. What you meant to say is "I WISH national boundaries were meaningless to the working class, but they are in fact still VERY relevant to the majority of working and poor people THROUGHOUT the world". National grievances are important. The crucial difference between the Stalinist and Marxist positions on this, however, is the role of the working class.

[IrishWorker]

Wait, so you think the INLA is all that is preventing working class people from getting murdered by fascists? Is the situation actually that bad in the north?



Well essentially the question your asking him is if he is a Leninist or an libertarian socialist. If he is the latter, then the answer to your initial question will be no, because he will recognise that national boundaries are meaningless to the working class, and thus national 'liberation' does not represent liberation for the working class at all.

I don't think an movement stressing national liberation will ever unite the working class in Ireland. Seeing as the sectarian conflict arose from those who didn't believe in a united, sovereign Ireland and those who did, and we've seen years of fighting over it, I don't see what makes you think you can ever hope to acheive it peacefully now. I think the view of the comrade you are questioning and mine would be similar, i.e. that as with every single case of conflict between two 'different' ethnicities, nationalities, etc, in Ireland the class struggle has to be used to unite the working class of the north. I don't see why we should have a whole movement arguing that somehow national liberation is needed ot unite the working class in Ireland, clearly class struggle and conciousness is.


You seem to suggest that national liberation is a prerequisite of socialism? I take it you therefore agree with the "stages" theory of Stalinism/Maoism? I think it is clear enough from the history of the anti-colonial movement in the 20th century that this is a disastrous policy to adopt.

In relation to the original OP: why were these men imprisoned? Let's be frank about this; the IRSP/INLA does not pose a major or even a minor threat to either of the partionist states in Ireland. Also; the INLA is supposed to be on a ceasefire so why are these men active in that capacity?

The range of charges is very limited they are either membership or possession charges.
I disagree with your analysis of the situation the IRSM are in steady continuous growth over the last few years has put the IRSM in a good position new cummans and a vibrant Youth movement in the RSYM are all great moves in the right direction.
Frankly that’s the kind of derogatory statement that I would expect from a PSF supporter you clearly don’t have much of a grasp of the growth of the movement and have carried the old PSF myths with you into Eirigi sad really I expected more from Eirigi sympathizers.

[Pogue]

Answering your first question comrade sectarian killings are not uncommon we had our last one two weeks ago where a right wing skin head loyalist mob beat to death a man from a "mixed" marriage in Colraine Co Derry.
The INLA are seen as a Armed deterrent to main stream loyalist paramilitary’s.


But the INLA didn't prevent that attack and likely havn't stopped the majority of attacks, so clearly they are not functioning very well in being an 'Armed deterrent'.

[Pogue]

That is simply untrue. What you meant to say is "I WISH national boundaries were meaningless to the working class, but they are in fact still VERY relevant to the majority of working and poor people THROUGHOUT the world". National grievances are important. The crucial difference between the Stalinist and Marxist positions on this, however, is the role of the working class.

No, people hold them to be important. That doesn't make them important. As revolutionaries we attempt to break down such ideas through class solidarity and the spreading of ideas contrary to nationalism, not by changing our ideology to whatever examples of false conciousness workers are displaying at that present time.

[IrishWorker]

But the INLA didn't prevent that attack and likely havn't stopped the majority of attacks, so clearly they are not functioning very well in being an 'Armed deterrent'.


I personally cannot speak for the INLA in any capacity and I am just a supporter of the IRSP but there is no presence in the estate in Colerain of IRSM members and maybe that maybe one of the reasons the fascist skin head loyalist mob attacked it.
It is clear that individual members of the UDA carried out the attack without authorization from their inner council a ruling body that over sees the day to day running of the UDA.

[Andropov]

Wait, so you think the INLA is all that is preventing working class people from getting murdered by fascists? Is the situation actually that bad in the north?
Sectarian tensions havent been this high for over a decade.

Well essentially the question your asking him is if he is a Leninist or an libertarian socialist.
Not at all, my question was either the imperial occupation of Ireland is either progressive or not?

If he is the latter, then the answer to your initial question will be no, because he will recognise that national boundaries are meaningless to the working class, and thus national 'liberation' does not represent liberation for the working class at all.
Im afraid they are very relevant to Ireland as it is the imposition of foreign soldiers which implement and sustain the status quo.
It is a classic British Imperial method to use foreign troops in their colonies to supress working class mobilisation.
This has been seen throughout their Empire in the likes of India.
Look at even in Red Clydeside, the use of foreign troops to supress a working class mobilisation.
To deny the very fact of the use of National Boundaries to supress and eradicate our cause shows a complete lack of understanding.

I don't think an movement stressing national liberation will ever unite the working class in Ireland. Seeing as the sectarian conflict arose from those who didn't believe in a united, sovereign Ireland and those who did, and we've seen years of fighting over it, I don't see what makes you think you can ever hope to acheive it peacefully now.
This is just regurgetated British propaganda.
The sectarian elements in the conflict arose out of the British Imperial agents training, funding and conspiring with reactionary elements to stir up Sectarian tensions.
It is why any Marxist with an understanding of Irish history will tell you that Sectarianism is a British Construct.

I think the view of the comrade you are questioning and mine would be similar, i.e. that as with every single case of conflict between two 'different' ethnicities, nationalities, etc,
Well this is just wrong.
Since when did the struggle ever become a fight between two different "nationalities" or "ethnicities"?
Its an absurd suggestion, they are all Irish and have no clearly defineable "ethnicity".
The whole Anglo/Saxon and Celt idea is pure bunckam.

in Ireland the class struggle has to be used to unite the working class of the north.
Something the IRSP has believed in for over 30 years.

I don't see why we should have a whole movement arguing that somehow national liberation is needed ot unite the working class in Ireland, clearly class struggle and conciousness is.
As pointed out above.

[Andropov]

You seem to suggest that national liberation is a prerequisite of socialism? I take it you therefore agree with the "stages" theory of Stalinism/Maoism? I think it is clear enough from the history of the anti-colonial movement in the 20th century that this is a disastrous policy to adopt.
I never suggested the stageist approach.

In relation to the original OP: why were these men imprisoned?
As IW said, for the likes of Membership charges, possesion of weapons etc.
This information is freely available.

Let's be frank about this; the IRSP/INLA does not pose a major or even a minor threat to either of the partionist states in Ireland.
Thats a bit odd.
It wasnt so long ago I heard you saying that the Real IRA would be a major guerilla army within the next year? :confused:

Also; the INLA is supposed to be on a ceasefire so why are these men active in that capacity?
Since when did the INLA ever decomission?

[Andropov]

But the INLA didn't prevent that attack and likely havn't stopped the majority of attacks, so clearly they are not functioning very well in being an 'Armed deterrent'.
You shouldnt preach about things you dont understand.
The week before the Sectarian killing of Mc Daid the UDA were stirring up sectarian tensions in the Fountain in Derry.
Thanks to the INLA they were capable of keeping the peace in the Bog and the UVF helped return peace to the Fountain.
The UDA were ran out of Derry and retreated to one of their heartlands in Coleraine.

[robbo203]

So you do not recognise a peoples right to self determination?
This is simple, either the imperial occupation of Ireland is either progressive or not?
If you recgonise that the Imperial Occupation is not progressive then the struggle for National Liberation is progressive and is to be recognised as such.
As Marx, Engels, Connolly, Lenin and Costello all recognised that until National Liberation is achieved then the Imperial Forces within Ireland will for ever be a reactionary force that stifles Working Class mobilisation and stirs up Sectarian tensions when ever it is to their benefit.
To demote the struggle of National Liberation to simple Nationalism is disengenious and shows a complete lack of understanding of the political landscape in Ireland and quite frankly just comes across as bourgeious sensationalism.

Perhaps a moderator could split these posts into a new thread as the original issue will be derailed.

I frankly couldnt care a tinkers cuss about "the peoples right to self determination". Who are the "people" anyway? It is irrelevant to me as a socialist. Completely irrelevant. Marx and Engels were writing way back in the 19h century but already by the 1870s they were chainging thier mind on supporting nationalist struggles. In any event, you might treat what they had to say as holy scripture. I dont

I think it is disengenious to regard national liberation struggle as anything but a nationalist struggle and frankly at the end of the day, a bourgeois project. How could it not be? It elevates some mythical nation above class and therefore presumes a common identity and shared interest between workers and capitalists. It is one of the ideological props of capitalism.

[PeaderO'Donnell]

But the INLA didn't prevent that attack and likely havn't stopped the majority of attacks, so clearly they are not functioning very well in being an 'Armed deterrent'.

True they didnt prevent that attack but someone posted here awhile ago pictures of INLA volunteers patrolling a neighbourhood in the six counties in order to protect it from attacks. If that armed deterrent wasnt there they may well have been fascist violence against the locals. You live in London and I live in Dublin so there is a lot we dont know about the north (your Irish relations live in Galway?).

Also there is always the possibility of another situation like 1969 arising. Given the history of the six counties armed groups like the INLA are necessary though Im very unsure of the stratergy of the Real and Continuity IRAs.