Fascist attack on U.S. Holocaust Museum

[Martin Blank]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled "My Left Group is Better than Your Left Group" argument to bring you this breaking story:...

Earlier today, James von Brunn, a leader in the fascist movement in the U.S., entered the National Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., armed with a rifle and began indiscriminately firing at visitors. Two people were injured before Park Police shot and wounded Von Brunn in the head.

The shooting at the Holocaust Museum comes one week after Scott Roeder, the fascist assassin of Dr. George Tiller in Wichita, Kans., called the Associated Press and warned of more attacks by rightwing terrorists.

All major news media in the U.S. are covering the event. Please check their websites for appropriate links.

We now return you to your insolent sniping....

[DecDoom]

That isn't anything like what I heard. The shooter is definitely a white-supremacist, but he's not a leader. He entered the Holocaust Museum, and immediately entered into verbal confrontation with a museum guard, who saw Von Brunn's barely concealed rifle. Von Brunn opened fire, hitting the guard, and was shot by two other guards. The shooter and the guard are currently in critical condition.

[gorillafuck]

The shooting at the Holocaust Museum comes one week after Scott Roeder, the fascist assassin of Dr. George Tiller in Wichita, Kans., called the Associated Press and warned of more attacks by rightwing terrorists.
I thought that Scott Roeder was only referring to attacks on abortion clinics.

[RedAnarchist]

Just did a Google search on this von Brunn guy, and he's a major right-wing lunatic. Quite old, too - he was born in 1920.

[Mansfield Red]

What a pointless endevour, white supremacists are always stupid in their actions.

My best wishes to the guards, I hope they recover soon.

[DecDoom]

I thought that Scott Roeder was only referring to attacks on abortion clinics.

That's correct. I'm not sure if/why Miles is trying to connect the two incidents.

The story that Miles gave, and the story that I gave could be completely wrong by the time this is done. This is a developing story, and it's important to keep that in mind.

[Dimentio]

Just did a Google search on this von Brunn guy, and he's a major right-wing lunatic. Quite old, too - he was born in 1920.

Apparently, he's editing wikipedia.

Here is an article written by him regarding the problems of our time.

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/blog/?p=463

Despite the grave news of his crime, I could'nt stop myself from laughing when reading this piece.

[DecDoom]

This just in...

the guard didn't make it...

no word on the condition of the fascist, but I hope he's dying a slow, painful death.

[Dimentio]

http://www.loveforlife.com.au/node/6054

This is a part of a book written about him. Apparent mental meltdown.

[More Fire for the People]

A class which has loose control over it's dominion will either react--Orleanism, Gaullism, etc., defect--petty-bourgeois socialists, guild socialists, market socialists, etc., or go mad--fascism, falangism, libertarianism, etc. And in their reaction, defection, and madness they drag other classes along.

[Madvillainy]

Fox News is talking about the role the economy might be playing in getting the nutcases to act up.

um, almost sounds like that Homeland Security Report, right? You know, the one that had everybody from Limbaugh to Scarborough flipping the fuck out?

http://fast1.onesite.com/community.allhiphop.com/user/swiffness/history/dcd0cd3c55ea6cfb04a0bad474dec22c.gif?v=41536
RIP

[Marx22]

Its only a matter of time before the right wing attempt to label this as a victim of the "economic crisis" and the Obama. They will do anything to portray the pig von Brunn in a good light and will try to twist it up, sugarcoat the real reason why he shot up that museum.

The guy was a fascist, plain and simple. Oliver, that Homeland Security Report is dead on target; right wing extremists are nothing but a threat to the country and events like these including Tiller's death, just gives us more and more evidence these people are nothing but domestic terrorists and murderers.

[Pogue]

Fox News is talking about the role the economy might be playing in getting the nutcases to act up.

um, almost sounds like that Homeland Security Report, right? You know, the one that had everybody from Limbaugh to Scarborough flipping the fuck out?

http://fast1.onesite.com/community.allhiphop.com/user/swiffness/history/dcd0cd3c55ea6cfb04a0bad474dec22c.gif?v=41536
RIP

Is this the security guard?

[Madvillainy]

Is this the security guard?

yup.

[Guerrilla22]

Fox News is talking about the role the economy might be playing in getting the nutcases to act up.



:rolleyes: Yes leave it up to Fox News to try to find a way to apologize for this guy's actions, just like they found a way to apologize for the guy that shot Tiller. Surely a white supremacist shooting someone at the National Holocaust Musuem doesn't mean anti-semitism was the motivation.

[Pawn Power]

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/06/domestic-terrorism-holocaust-museum

There does seem to be a surge in right-wing extremist acts. These people think there is going to be a civil war over these 'culture' issues. Maybe they are right.

[Pogue]

yup.

poor guy, died doing his job and well

condolenses to his family

[Guerrilla22]

There were a bunch of people inside the musuem at the time, including a bunch of school kids. The guard saved a bunch of lives. He's a hero for sure.

[Rjevan]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled "My Left Group is Better than Your Left Group" argument to bring you this breaking story:...
We now return you to your insolent sniping....
This is just briliant. :laugh:


James von Brunn... Scott Roeder, the fascist assassin of Dr. George Tiller
Oh my. Assuming that it would be Röder, these guys seem to have taken their german origin too serious. :rolleyes:
I bet the scum is celebrating now, because the guard was black... R.I.P.
I second DeclinedDoomed's wishes for the fascist.


HITLER’S WORST MISTAKE:
HE DIDN’T GAS THE JEWS.
JAMES VON BRUNN

Americas worst mistake:
They allowed nazi-scum to emigrate to and work for the USA instead of hanging them.
Rjevan

[Dimentio]

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/06/3_men_shot_at_holocaust_memori.php

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/blog/index.php?s=Von+Brunn

Apparently, he is already known. He tried to "kidnap" the Federal Treasure Board in 1981. He is revered on Stormfront.

Really quite insane.

[Marx22]

Ah but don't tell the right wingers that. It is a shame already the conservatives are rushing to defend that terrorist. On MSNBC out of all a US House of Rep member (Republican) said he was just "upset that he was not being heard by the establishment" and "that he was just a bit overwhemled with everything going on in society right now". I ask, when did nazism become legit or worthy to be defended? I mean come on, god forbid if some left-winger shot up the Ronald Reagan Memorial Museum, the GOP would call for marshall law.

And that guard indeed put his life up to save the rest of the people in the building however the media is not even focusing on his brave efforts.

[Dimentio]

Ah but don't tell the right wingers that. It is a shame already the conservatives are rushing to defend that terrorist. On MSNBC out of all a US House of Rep member (Republican) said he was just "upset that he was not being heard by the establishment" and "that he was just a bit overwhemled with everything going on in society right now". I ask, when did nazism become legit or worthy to be defended? I mean come on, god forbid if some left-winger shot up the Ronald Reagan Memorial Museum, the GOP would call for marshall law.

And that guard indeed put his life up to save the rest of the people in the building however the media is not even focusing on his brave efforts.

If GOP is so insane that it defends nutzis, it is doomed to stay a fringe party.

[Marx22]

Rep. Mike Rogers is his name and a clip on what he said about how "the economy may have played a role"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#31212157

[More Fire for the People]

He was a security guard at a museum.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Back to the fascists, why is there a fascist upsurge in the US? Even the government let a memo leak that they were expecting fascist terror (as in not the normal cop fascist terror sanctioned by the government) to go up in the US.

Obviously the lack of a left combined with a faltering economy is the best recipe for small business people, contractors, and the like to turn to fascism for relief from "socialism" and the capitalist system. This has led to higher membership of proto-fascist anti-immigrant groups as well as neo-nazi groups.

But why all the recent shootings and so on? Is it just that they felt a black president was the sign to "awaken the white masses" and cause a race war or something - it hasn't happened so they are trying to ignite one?

When the cold war ended without WWIII, the fascists went into the militias and tried to provoke a racist uprising... is it something similar now, or more just the result of people being squeezed by capitalism and turning to fascism?

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

Pour out some liquor for a brother. =(

Something in me feels a deep sense of dread as we see more of these things happening more and more every day...

[swampfox]

I was at work when this fascist pig tainted the sacred ground of the Holocaust Museum. I have visited that site many times and find it my favorite place in all of Washington. The brutal and upfront nature of the displays there force visitors to realize just how dangerous fascist propaganda can be.

When my girlfriend told me on my break about what happened, my first thought was what I would like to do to that prick for the harm he caused to the guard and the visitors at the museum.

[x359594]

Nearly a decade ago, during the Clinton Administration, a neo-Nazi walked into a Jewish community center in a suburb of Los Angeles and shot several children, a teenage teacher's aid and an elderly receptionist (none fatally, but leaving the children traumatized for life.) On his way out he shot and killed an Asian-American mailman because, as he said later, "He worked for the government."

A few weeks later another neo-Nazi went on a weekend killing spree starting in Chicago outside a synagogue where he gunned down several people, shot a black motorist fatally and then worked his way down to the Champaign-Urbana campus of the University of Illinois where he shot and killed a Korean exchange student. Cornered by the police, he committed suicide.

I remember these incidents because a friend of mine was a music teacher at the community center, and the mid-western neo-Nazi belonged to a group that had a distinctive swastika type logo, one that was spray painted near my companera's car (she's Asian-American.) No doubt it was a nasty prank by a closeted racist neighbor, but it was frightening enough in view of what recently went down.

The corporate media briefly turned its attention to white supremacist and neo-Nazi organizations with characteristically superficial analysis. In the aftermath of these 1999 incidents there was a rise in hate crimes though none produced fatalities. I expect we'll see a similar pattern follwoing these two incdients.

As for showing sympathy for "a member of the capitalists' security apparatus", a security guard is not a cop or an FBI agent. He or she is a fellow worker, often of color, forced to take on an unpleasant job that doesn't pay well in order to make ends meet like the rest of us. Here in LA a cop takes in $50 k a year, a security guard about $26 k a year. If the security guard is in the pay of the capitalists, so are the rest of us.

[Martin Blank]

That isn't anything like what I heard. The shooter is definitely a white-supremacist, but he's not a leader. He entered the Holocaust Museum, and immediately entered into verbal confrontation with a museum guard, who saw Von Brunn's barely concealed rifle. Von Brunn opened fire, hitting the guard, and was shot by two other guards. The shooter and the guard are currently in critical condition.

Von Brunn is the author of a book that is considered required reading among fascist circles. As someone else has pointed out, he is revered by the folks connected to Stormfront. He also has ties with David Irving and the Zundel historical revisionists. He is one of the fascist movement's intellectual leaders, without a doubt.

The question I have is why one of their intellectuals chose to actually carry out a "lone wolf" action? Usually, they would get one of their bonehead bums to do it.


I thought that Scott Roeder was only referring to attacks on abortion clinics.

Roeder made three calls to the AP. Only in the last one, made only an hour or so after his second call, when he initially made his statement about future attacks, was he specific about the targets being abortion providers and clinics. Honestly, I smell a diversion.

And then there is the chatter coming out of the fascist movement itself, which we're still sifting through.


That's correct. I'm not sure if/why Miles is trying to connect the two incidents.

Because the people who carried them out are connected organizationally. Both Roeder and Von Brunn have ties to the Christian Identity movement and Aryan Nations. Von Brunn was also a supporter of the Montana Freemen Militia at the same time Roeder was a member.

No, comrades. This shit is no coincidence.

[Girl A]

Oh my God. This is disgusting.
R.I.P.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The question I have is why one of their intellectuals chose to actually carry out a "lone wolf" action? Usually, they would get one of their bonehead bums to do it.



Well, if it was a mental breakdown, then he just did it. but, it could very well be a form of inspiration to said boneheads. "an intellectual and a fighter? LETS DO IT TOO!!!!" is probably the message.

i wouldnt be surprised to see more of the same shit go down because of his "heroic" actions. (i say heroic from their point of view to show how it could be seen as a way to bolster support from their followers and produce action)

Comrades, this is going to be one hell of a year. and a bad one at that.

[BIG BROTHER]

Fascist are fucken stupid.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Oh jeez.
I don't see anybody in my town parading around in Nazi uniform saying "Go Muslims kill the Zionists!" They actually hold "Salute to Israel" parades to commend Israel for their valiant efforts in eradicating those pesky Hezbollah rebels aka innocent civilians.

Actually I live in a small-ish city in Minnesota and some Neo-Nazis have been trying to organize around here. They held an anti-immigrant hate rally last week and I along with some friends got a ton of people to come out and counter-protest, but it was really sick in the media, the papers and the TV, a lot of them didn't even mention that it was a NAZI rally. It's really sick stuff, I don't get why the media takes this favorable side with the Nazis. And then the cops too, we were just standing there debating with the Nazi guy after his speech and the cops tell us, the antifascists, to go away and the skinhead cop just stands there chilling out and chatting with the boneheads. I think we need to keep an eye out for these fascist movements and terrorists. It might be saying something too that the establishment is friendly with them.

[Sasha]

can stark & true leninist and al the other idiots trying to divert the thread to "iSSrael" and "false flag" conspiracy bullshit please take their bordeline anti-semite shit over to stormfront?

a leading nazi commited an terrorist atack on a museum about the hollocaust; yes that IS sommething worth discussing more (both here and in the media) than some gangkilling or an drunk butchering his wife.
and while the goverments of israel and the US probily will spin this to their advantage and capitalise on it they are neither behind nor responisble (other than failing to lock up the guy earlier) for it.
the guy who did it did it.

[Dimentio]

I was at work when this fascist pig tainted the sacred ground of the Holocaust Museum. I have visited that site many times and find it my favorite place in all of Washington. The brutal and upfront nature of the displays there force visitors to realize just how dangerous fascist propaganda can be.

When my girlfriend told me on my break about what happened, my first thought was what I would like to do to that prick for the harm he caused to the guard and the visitors at the museum.

I think that life is so unpleasant for Von Brunn. According to his ex-wife, he only ranted about Jews, days and nights. If she wanted to change subject, he'd beat her.

Such a person could probably not feel any genuine happiness. I think he hoped to die to get relieved of the pain of living in this world.

I hope he live a long and miserable life behind bars.

[Agrippa]

I agree that the fact that some are trying to spin this thread into something about Israel is pretty tasteless and anti-Semitic. What do the genocidal crimes of Israel have to do with a notorious fascist celebrity shooting a black worker because he worked at a museum that commemorated the victims of the genocidal crimes of fascist Germany?

Yes, Zionist attitudes are very popular among the US, but fascist anti-Zionism has always been a strong current in this country, and it continues to grow rapidly. The Jews are a staple scape-goat and ridiculous conspiracy theories about the "Zionist lobby" and how the neo-cons had "dual loyalties" to Israel because some of them are Jewish. Among conservative populists (probably the most popular ideology among the white American working-class) in the US, "Zionist" is basically a code-word for "Jew". None of this, mind you, helps the plight of the Palestinian people in any way. It's vile, white man's politics.

Yes. This is a very significant story. How could any act of fascist violence not be a significant story? Yes, the Holocaust museum is total BS that exists only to glorify the Allied victory and Allied war cause, and gives disproportionate attention to the Romany, Slavic, homosexual, "anti-social" female, crippled, etc. victims of Nazi policy, much less the communist resistance. Why should we expect otherwise from a capitalist-run museum in the US? However, security guards are not the same as cops, especially security guards who work for lefty, 501(c)(3)history museums as opposed to banks or other vital parts of the capitalist infrastructure. That the Holocaust Museum is a bunch of crap does not in any way detract from this man's heroism in saving others' lives from a fascist attack. For all we know, he could have had the same gripes with his employers that we do.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So about a month ago, the FBI arrested a group of young immigrants (one who was taking anti-schizophrenic drugs) for plotting a terrorist attack. Only the FBI informant was the one selling these guys fake rocket launchers and bombs.

So this is who the FBI arrests for terrorism.

Meanwhile anti-Semitic white-supremacists have websites and blogs where they call for killing all Jews or Muslims or gays or abortion doctors and nothing happens to them until they blow up a building.

I think this whole incident is really illustrative of the hypocrisy of BS of "homeland security" and the entire anti-Arab racist hysteria the right-wing promotes.

[F9]

Soo cleaned the thread up from some stupid posts, and trashed them along with the replies of others, so lets try stay on topic.

Anw, what happened is sad, especially for the guard there, and for his family, in such tough situations only power inside can help you and another thing.A bullet right in the head on those idiots fucking nazis wannabies.

Fuserg9:star:

[pastradamus]

Actually I live in a small-ish city in Minnesota and some Neo-Nazis have been trying to organize around here. They held an anti-immigrant hate rally last week and I along with some friends got a ton of people to come out and counter-protest, but it was really sick in the media, the papers and the TV, a lot of them didn't even mention that it was a NAZI rally. It's really sick stuff, I don't get why the media takes this favorable side with the Nazis. And then the cops too, we were just standing there debating with the Nazi guy after his speech and the cops tell us, the antifascists, to go away and the skinhead cop just stands there chilling out and chatting with the boneheads. I think we need to keep an eye out for these fascist movements and terrorists. It might be saying something too that the establishment is friendly with them.


Good post. Its terrible that these fuckers were highlighted I agree. Though I would like to make my own explanation as to why the media made a big song and dance of the Nazi's.

There are numerous reasons as to why the media fixated people on this group and on this groups protest. In the end it all drains down to neo-conservatism and the role it plays in the media. The use of scare-mongering tactics in order to maintain the status quo's role in the "civil protection" business. Basically the mass media and sometimes even the local media is owned by large-scale business men such as Murdock and others who indulge in this pre-programming of media and what angle is to be taken on various issues. Also Immigration debates are constantly used in the media as a means of splitting the working class which operates as a means of controling them. In other-words the Shock story is always one which is easy to talk about and easy to bullshit about.

The media loves an easy story like this. Why? because it saves them time and instead of carrying out investigative journalism and working as real reporters instead opting for this cheap news.

The Media will never highlight counter-protests like your's because its porogressive and progressive people,such as yourself have a good understanding of how their bullshit helps ruin America.

[rednordman]

Surely, FOX news are not actually trying to defend this weirdo, are they???

+If its true that the murdered security gard is getting no mention in the media, than it truly is an nasty sign of the times.:(

[Reinhardt]

Of course FOX news would try to defend this guy. They are the ultimate example of Capitalism and Fascism. They paid and aranged for the Olympics to be held at perfect viewing times in America to gain more money.


Oh my. Assuming that it would be Röder, these guys seem to have taken their german origin too serious

I'd just like to add, is this supposed to mean all Germans are Nazi ?

[x359594]

...The media loves an easy story like this. Why? because it saves them time and instead of carrying out investigative journalism and working as real reporters instead opting for this cheap news...The Media will never highlight counter-protests like your's because its porogressive...

True on both counts. But in one important respect media coverage is a secondary issue because a counterprotest is for the benefit of the immediate community. The idea is to show people in the community that there is on the ground grass roots opposition to all these neo-Nazi and neo-fascist formations.

[rednordman]

Of course FOX news would try to defend this guy. They are the ultimate example of Capitalism and Fascism. Sure but even then, they still cannot defend this guys actions, its beyond belief.

[TrueLeninist]

What else more do you want when both US government and Israel government are terrorist-organizations. And note that Israel will benefit from this event. They will use this as a tool and pretext to invade Iran

TrueLeninist



So about a month ago, the FBI arrested a group of young immigrants (one who was taking anti-schizophrenic drugs) for plotting a terrorist attack. Only the FBI informant was the one selling these guys fake rocket launchers and bombs.

So this is who the FBI arrests for terrorism.

Meanwhile anti-Semitic white-supremacists have websites and blogs where they call for killing all Jews or Muslims or gays or abortion doctors and nothing happens to them until they blow up a building.

I think this whole incident is really illustrative of the hypocrisy of BS of "homeland security" and the entire anti-Arab racist hysteria the right-wing promotes.

[TrueLeninist]

You are not a communist nor a socialist. You behave like a right-winger of Free Republic. You are against freedom of speech. You called me an idiot and insulted just because i said that the killer state of Israel, which is a killer state, will use this as a pretext to invade Iran. I never said this was a false-flag. I think you don't know how to read.

However if you support the Israel killer state, that's not my problem

TrueLeninist



can stark & true leninist and al the other idiots trying to divert the thread to "iSSrael" and "false flag" conspiracy bullshit please take their bordeline anti-semite shit over to stormfront?

a leading nazi commited an terrorist atack on a museum about the hollocaust; yes that IS sommething worth discussing more (both here and in the media) than some gangkilling or an drunk butchering his wife.
and while the goverments of israel and the US probily will spin this to their advantage and capitalise on it they are neither behind nor responisble (other than failing to lock up the guy earlier) for it.
the guy who did it did it.

[TrueLeninist]

Agrippa: WTF? I know that USA and the world is full of nazis who hate real jews, because of their race and skin (but that's a complete different matter). But that doesn't mean that hating the Israel state makes you a racist. Read this: Hating the Israel government is NOT RACISM !! for god sake !!

You are generalizing, you are stereotyping anti-zionist activists with Nazis. Anti-zionism means hating Israel-government which is a zionist government with a fascist ideology is not racism. So hating both neo-nazis and zionists is not racism. In fact it is the opppsite. Zionists are hardcore anti-palestines and support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine people in the area.

Why the hell do you equate "Anti-semite" people with anti-zionists? So according to you the people who hate US government are anti-Americans? and the people who hate the Mexican-fascist government are anti-Mexican? In what planet do you live? Read James Petras "The Power of Israel in the United States" to read the great influence of the Jewish Lobby (AIPAC) inside the US government. Wake up !!!

Again i repeat to you: Hating the Israel government is not racism.

TrueLeninist





I agree that the fact that some are trying to spin this thread into something about Israel is pretty tasteless and anti-Semitic. What do the genocidal crimes of Israel have to do with a notorious fascist celebrity shooting a black worker because he worked at a museum that commemorated the victims of the genocidal crimes of fascist Germany?

Yes, Zionist attitudes are very popular among the US, but fascist anti-Zionism has always been a strong current in this country, and it continues to grow rapidly. The Jews are a staple scape-goat and ridiculous conspiracy theories about the "Zionist lobby" and how the neo-cons had "dual loyalties" to Israel because some of them are Jewish. Among conservative populists (probably the most popular ideology among the white American working-class) in the US, "Zionist" is basically a code-word for "Jew". None of this, mind you, helps the plight of the Palestinian people in any way. It's vile, white man's politics.

Yes. This is a very significant story. How could any act of fascist violence not be a significant story? Yes, the Holocaust museum is total BS that exists only to glorify the Allied victory and Allied war cause, and gives disproportionate attention to the Romany, Slavic, homosexual, "anti-social" female, crippled, etc. victims of Nazi policy, much less the communist resistance. Why should we expect otherwise from a capitalist-run museum in the US? However, security guards are not the same as cops, especially security guards who work for lefty, 501(c)(3)history museums as opposed to banks or other vital parts of the capitalist infrastructure. That the Holocaust Museum is a bunch of crap does not in any way detract from this man's heroism in saving others' lives from a fascist attack. For all we know, he could have had the same gripes with his employers that we do.

[Stark]

Like I said, Von Brunn is a misanthropic degenerate who deserves to punished just for his crazy rants on the internet. But at the same time, reactionary bourgeois circles are exaggerating the importance of this crime and exploiting it in order to hurl vicious slander against progressives and "jihadists" and justify an instensification of repression against progressive forces. There must be an uncompromising struggle not only against Fascists, but also with liberals, right-wingers and reformists of the "Left".

[Dimentio]

You are not a communist nor a socialist. You behave like a right-winger of Free Republic. You are against freedom of speech. You called me an idiot and insulted just because i said that the killer state of Israel, which is a killer state, will use this as a pretext to invade Iran. I never said this was a false-flag. I think you don't know how to read.

However if you support the Israel killer state, that's not my problem

TrueLeninist

Seriously, that a senile, insane antisemitic Hitler-lover kills a man at a Holocaust Museum is not an argument for Israel to invade Iran. If you believe it, you are as demented as my username.

[Josef Balin]

A class which has loose control over it's dominion will either react--Orleanism, Gaullism, etc., defect--petty-bourgeois socialists, guild socialists, market socialists, etc., or go mad--fascism, falangism, libertarianism, etc. And in their reaction, defection, and madness they drag other classes along.
You're a pretty shitty Marxist.

[More Fire for the People]

You're a pretty shitty Marxist.
That's a pretty unqualified statement.

[Martin Blank]

That's a pretty unqualified statement.

No kidding. Besides the fact that it was wholly personalistic, it shows a complete lack of theoretical knowledge. On the whole, I thought it was a pretty good statement about the petty bourgeoisie. My only bones to pick with it were formulaic. To wit:


A class which has loose control over it's dominion, LIKE THE PETTY BOURGEOISIE, will either react--Orleanism, Gaullism, etc., defect--petty-bourgeois socialists, guild socialists, market socialists, etc., or go mad--fascism, falangism, libertarianism, etc. And in their reaction, defection, and madness they drag other SECTIONS OF classes along.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

He has is own website, that guy. I believe it was holowesternempire.com or something like that :blink::blink:.
Men like him should be hunted down, every last one of them.

[New Tet]

Its only a matter of time before the right wing attempt to label this as a victim of the "economic crisis" and the Obama. They will do anything to portray the pig von Brunn in a good light and will try to twist it up, sugarcoat the real reason why he shot up that museum.

The guy was a fascist, plain and simple.

Yes, but only if you stop there! True, he was your run-of-the-mill, white Anglo-Saxon bigot, disturbed to distraction by his subjective experience;
a narcissist. Fascism promotes the cult of the ego.
People like that are easily manipulated by clever flattery.

[/QUOTE]Oliver, that Homeland Security Report is dead on target; right wing extremists are nothing but a threat to the country and events like these including Tiller's death, just gives us more and more evidence these people are nothing but domestic terrorists and murderers.[/QUOTE]

American extremism is more dangerous than that. If I tremble at the thought of Taliban possessing a few nuclear weapons, imagine how I must shake at the thought of American Fascist in control of the U.S.'s arsenal!

[x359594]

...If I tremble at the thought of Taliban possessing a few nuclear weapons, imagine how I must shake at the thought of American Fascist in control of the U.S.'s arsenal!

Better not read To Win A Nuclear War. It's a study of US nuke plans and the circumstances under which it would use them drawn from Pentagon findings and decalssified documents.

[вор в законе]

I don't give flying fuck about cops, and security guards.

[Sasha]

i'm an bouncer, thats not that diffrent from what this guy was doing (protecting the atmosphere, keeping the guest safe and assholes out, enforcing house rules), want me to get shot too?

[#FF0000]

I don't give flying fuck about cops, and security guards.

There's a pretty big difference between a cop and a security guard at a museum.

[NecroCommie]

Based on my personal experience with security guards I'd say that they are just cops who did not fare well in the cop school, and are now forced to take security jobs. And my experience is two close relatives as security men. I cannot ofcourse speak for other societys as they recruit their cops and security guards differently, and there are definately exceptions. Nevertheless my experience with security guards gives them little to no value above cops.

But dudes! Let's look at the bright side! Now the holocaust museum has gained, not only pictures of fascist victims, but an actual fascist as well! :thumbup:

[x359594]

...I cannot of course speak for other societys as they recruit their cops and security guards differently, and there are definately exceptions...

Yes, there are exceptions.

In the US most security guards have about the same status as parking lot attendants (in fact some do double duty as parking lot attendants,) are often people of color (men and women,) and are paid half as much or less than real cops. It's also true that some are indeed wannabe cops, like you said. Some but not all.

The shooting occured in DC a segregated city with a large African-American population, the guard was black. To me he was a fellow worker killed on the job. His family has my sympathy.

[NecroCommie]

Yes, there are exceptions.

In the US most security guards have about the same status as parking lot attendants (in fact some do double duty as parking lot attendants,) are often people of color (men and women,) and are paid half as much or less than real cops. It's also true that some are indeed wannabe cops, like you said. Some but not all.

The shooting occured in DC a segregated city with a large African-American population, the guard was black. To me he was a fellow worker killed on the job. His family has my sympathy.
Apparently U.S. companies hire their security personnel differently, or then you dont have such a large supply of wanna-be cops. Over here it is more of a rule than an exception.

[Martin Blank]

The guard was employed through Wackenhut Security, which, along with Securitas (formerly Pinkerton), is one of the largest private security companies in the U.S. Wackenhut was formed by former FBI agents and has been a "private contractor" for government dirty work since the 1960s. They provide security for several government sites, including nuclear test sites, Kennedy Space Center and, until 2002, large airports. They were also one of the largest owners of private prisons in the U.S. until around 2000, when they sold that division to another company.

The history of Wackenhut and the role they play in the class structure of society tells me these are not "workers in uniform", but an integral (albeit privatized) part of the capitalist state.

[Rusty Shackleford]

the guards themselves are not the ones making the decisions, i believe they are just workers in uniform. some of them may be bigots but not all of them. The companies themselves should have never existed but the workers themselves should not all be given the label that their employers may invoke.

[Martin Blank]

the guards themselves are not the ones making the decisions, i believe they are just workers in uniform. some of them may be bigots but not all of them. The companies themselves should have never existed but the workers themselves should not all be given the label that their employers may invoke.

It's not about whether the individuals are "bigots". That is wholly irrelevant to the matter at hand. What is relevant is their social role, and their social role is that of an armed enforcer of capitalism's "law and order". Without capitalist rule, they would have no reason for being; thus, their very survival is tied to maintaining capitalism and capitalist rule. They are not a part of the working class any more than capitalism's politicians, military officer corps or officialdom.

[Rusty Shackleford]

It's not about whether the individuals are "bigots". That is wholly irrelevant to the matter at hand. What is relevant is their social role, and their social role is that of an armed enforcer of capitalism's "law and order". Without capitalist rule, they would have no reason for being; thus, their very survival is tied to maintaining capitalism and capitalist rule. They are not a part of the working class any more than capitalism's politicians, military officer corps or officialdom.

ok ill retract the use of the term bigot, i was just trying to some how show that not all security officers are of negative persuasions like their employers.

So, by your definition, would you consider a Security guard to be somewhat similar to a Kapo(please note that im useing this term generally) Since, they oppress the people of their origins yet work for those above them to maintain their survival.

most security guards come from the lower class, and they are not like a petit-bourgeois because they do not employ people under them. they are definitely not part of the bourgeoisie. they are there to afford a living. where do they fall under then?

i know they are not laboring in a material sense, and their labor is an oppressive kind, but its still a form of labor i guess you could say. they rent out their labor-power to then receive a wage, but their product is not an object but a status of safety(like in the museum, or at an airport, or a mall) within a community. is that not working class? the capitalist just uses them to protect economic interests and places them against the working class, kind of like a soldier, but for domestic purposes.

please correct me if im wrong, but i feel they are members of the working class, its just the politics of their job that makes them seem like they're not.

[RedHal]

the guy was working security at a holocaust museum, now if he was working security at a bank, or Lockhead Martin etc.. that's a whole different matter. A holocaust museum is not an oppressive power like a bank or Lockhead Martin.

If you were to call anyone who sells their labor no matter how oppressive their job is, I guess you will call Blackwater mercenaries workers aswell :cursing:

[Rusty Shackleford]

ok, i guess im wrong then. but i would never see a mercenary as a worker.

[Martin Blank]

most security guards come from the lower class, and they are not like a petit-bourgeois because they do not employ people under them. they are definitely not part of the bourgeoisie. they are there to afford a living. where do they fall under then?

The petty bourgeoisie is not simply a class of small business owners. Classes are defined by relationship to the means of production and by relations to other classes. They are a broad and heterogeneous class of various elements positioned between the bourgeoisie and proletariat.

Armed security, like the police, stand as the guardians of capital (private property) and capitalist rule. That is their relationship to all classes within society and their relationship to the means of production. That they earn a wage for doing so is, at most, secondary (i.e., reflecting a potential Achilles heel in their loyalty).

They are not like Kapos -- a relatively more privileged section temporarily bought off to extend the power of the armed agents of capitalism and provide a layer of "cannon fodder" in class conflict. They are themselves the armed agents of capitalism.


the guy was working security at a holocaust museum, now if he was working security at a bank, or Lockheed Martin etc.. that's a whole different matter. A holocaust museum is not an oppressive power like a bank or Lockheed Martin.

Actually, in one sense it is. The Museum is a federal monument, and thus is an institution of the U.S. government. But then, by the same token, the Smithsonian could be seen as an "oppressive power". Ah, the pitfalls of a visceral approach to class politics!

[Josef Balin]

That's a pretty unqualified statement.
Your statement was complete bullshit, you made a Marxist adlib from a story about an insane man that only showed you look at Marxism from a completely idealistic, universal, and dogmatic viewpoint that is both wrong and poisonous to the movement.


No kidding. Besides the fact that it was wholly personalistic, it shows a complete lack of theoretical knowledge. On the whole, I thought it was a pretty good statement about the petty bourgeoisie. My only bones to pick with it were formulaic. To wit:
You probably thought it was a pretty good statement about the petty bourgeois because you have no understanding of really applying Marxist theory to something.