This place is overwhelming me

[Urban Rubble]

First off, this is not a complaint, I'm just having a hard time.

Issue #1: Who are you people? I think if you change a long time username it should be REQUIRED to add your old one in your sig. I'm looking around seeing people with 6000 posts that I've never heard of. I demand help!

Issue #2: The site is super fancy, but there are so many options and features that I feel like I'm trying to carjack the Starship Enterprise. I'll keep working at this one.

Issue #3: Is there a Commie Club still? I hope not, as I disagreed with it back then (but not enough to give up my membership, let me back in, I've got a ban list a mile long).

Issue #4: I just got back from Chiapas and had an interesting encounter with the Zapatistas in a village called Oventic. I thought some people might want to see photos and hear a report but I wasn't sure the rule on photos and where to post these types of things.

Issue #5: Shouldn't we have a travel forum by now? Part of my disappearance is due to having sweet jungle adventures in Central America, it might be fun to make a travel section to talk about these kinds of things. Maybe even a "Revolutionary Tourism" section for tips on how to find FMLN battlegrounds in El Salvador and Zapatista territories in Mexico, haha.

Every time I stop by I'm impressed with the way this place is going. But please, identify yourselves, because all the strangers are giving me anxiety.

[Dimentio]

First off, this is not a complaint, I'm just having a hard time.

Issue #1: Who are you people? I think if you change a long time username it should be REQUIRED to add your old one in your sig. I'm looking around seeing people with 6000 posts that I've never heard of. I demand help!

Issue #2: The site is super fancy, but there are so many options and features that I feel like I'm trying to carjack the Starship Enterprise. I'll keep working at this one.

Issue #3: Is there a Commie Club still? I hope not, as I disagreed with it back then (but not enough to give up my membership, let me back in, I've got a ban list a mile long).

Issue #4: I just got back from Chiapas and had an interesting encounter with the Zapatistas in a village called Oventic. I thought some people might want to see photos and hear a report but I wasn't sure the rule on photos and where to post these types of things.

Issue #5: Shouldn't we have a travel forum by now? Part of my disappearance is due to having sweet jungle adventures in Central America, it might be fun to make a travel section to talk about these kinds of things. Maybe even a "Revolutionary Tourism" section for tips on how to find FMLN battlegrounds in El Salvador and Zapatista territories in Mexico, haha.

Every time I stop by I'm impressed with the way this place is going. But please, identify yourselves, because all the strangers are giving me anxiety.

Welcome back :)

[RedAnarchist]

Welcome back:)

As you can see, I keep all my old usernames in my signature:thumbup1:

[Urban Rubble]

See! And I remember you perfectly!

[Forward Union]

First off, this is not a complaint, I'm just having a hard time.

Issue #1: Who are you people? I think if you change a long time username it should be REQUIRED to add your old one in your sig. I'm looking around seeing people with 6000 posts that I've never heard of. I demand help!

Issue #2: The site is super fancy, but there are so many options and features that I feel like I'm trying to carjack the Starship Enterprise. I'll keep working at this one.

Issue #3: Is there a Commie Club still? I hope not, as I disagreed with it back then (but not enough to give up my membership, let me back in, I've got a ban list a mile long).

Issue #4: I just got back from Chiapas and had an interesting encounter with the Zapatistas in a village called Oventic. I thought some people might want to see photos and hear a report but I wasn't sure the rule on photos and where to post these types of things.

Issue #5: Shouldn't we have a travel forum by now? Part of my disappearance is due to having sweet jungle adventures in Central America, it might be fun to make a travel section to talk about these kinds of things. Maybe even a "Revolutionary Tourism" section for tips on how to find FMLN battlegrounds in El Salvador and Zapatista territories in Mexico, haha.

Every time I stop by I'm impressed with the way this place is going. But please, identify yourselves, because all the strangers are giving me anxiety.

Nice to hear from you, I remember you no probs. I've had too many user names so you'll just have to take me at face value!

Oventic is the one-stop shop for people who don't really want to get their hands dirty and want to dip their toes in the shallow end of zapatista tourism for a few hours. haha sorry that sounded like a criticism, I'd like to hear some feedback, did you do any volunteer work for them in Hutepec or something? How is the Oventic hospital doing after the fire last year?

Did you go with CAPICE, Freyba, or as an independent?

[NecroCommie]

Who art thou? I knoweth thee not, so begone with thee poser! I betteth that he art of the most blasphemous troll-kin.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Welcome back!


First off, this is not a complaint, I'm just having a hard time.

Issue #1: Who are you people? I think if you change a long time username it should be REQUIRED to add your old one in your sig. I'm looking around seeing people with 6000 posts that I've never heard of. I demand help!

Issue #2: The site is super fancy, but there are so many options and features that I feel like I'm trying to carjack the Starship Enterprise. I'll keep working at this one.

Issue #3: Is there a Commie Club still? I hope not, as I disagreed with it back then (but not enough to give up my membership, let me back in, I've got a ban list a mile long).

The CC is still around. The drama llama seems well-fed.


Issue #4: I just got back from Chiapas and had an interesting encounter with the Zapatistas in a village called Oventic. I thought some people might want to see photos and hear a report but I wasn't sure the rule on photos and where to post these types of things.We're not allowed to post pictures of ourselves, not even in the CC, not any more. For any pictures that don't have your mug in them, there's the photo album facility.

[Urban Rubble]

Nice to hear from you, I remember you no probs. I've had too many user names so you'll just have to take me at face value!

Oventic is the one-stop shop for people who don't really want to get their hands dirty and want to dip their toes in the shallow end of zapatista tourism for a few hours. haha sorry that sounded like a criticism, I'd like to hear some feedback, did you do any volunteer work for them in Hutepec or something? How is the Oventic hospital doing after the fire last year?

Did you go with CAPICE, Freyba, or as an independent?

No man, I perfectly understand, and you're exactly right about Oventic.

My situation didn't really allow for much else. I'm still at University, so I only had about 2 weeks, and we had to fly out of the Yucatan so time was limited in Chiapas.

Honestly, the whole idea of "Zapatourism", and that kind of "Revolution Tourism" in general is something I've struggled with a lot. In the end, after talking with both travelers and those who live in these areas, I've come to the understanding that even if it's only a shallow gesture, it's beneficial for both sides. It spreads awareness, gives the "tourist" a better perspective, etc (my girlfriend, who is far from politically conscious, was affected in a positive way, I think). Furthermore, I do believe there is a general appreciation that people are interested and care enough to slog into the mountains just to express some support, they seemed pretty cool with us just coming to talk and check it out (I made it clear that if we were taking up time or being a nuisance we would be perfectly willing to leave).

It's a tough issue and I think about it a lot. With that said, when I'm done with school I definitely plan to return to the area and hopefully find Human Rights or Solidarity work, either in Guatemala, Chiapas or El Salvador. So I will be able to reconcile some of my uselessness, haha.

I didn't volunteer, as I said, limited time. We were kind of on vacation, but I was also trying to do some limited research for a future project at school and also make contacts with some organizations and contacts that I had been given by a professor. We went up to Oventic from San Cristobal in the morning, spent some time interviewing and chatting with the Junta, hung out and took photos plus shot some hoops. Since it was getting late they offered us some floor space, so we stayed the night, had some food and returned the next day.

After that we went toward Palenque to continue with our gringo activities, however, there was some additional excitement on the road. Some Zapatista supporters had occupied and blocked the entrance to the Misol Ha Waterfall, so I got to spend a few hours chatting with the "leadership" of their little group and exchanged contacts for a possible story on the action in the future.

As for the hospital fire, I wasn't aware of it. It's possible that it was mentioned and I didn't pick it up (my Spanish is pretty mediocre), but from what I saw of the clinic it looked intact, haha. The place was pretty dead actually, it was Semana Santa and a lot of people were with their relatives.

Anyway, I appreciate the frankness, honestly, it makes me uncomfortable when people see the pictures and respond with "Woah dude, you're craaaaaazy, that's amaaaaaaazing". In reality, anyone can go do what I did without any real measure of discomfort (unless you count hitch hiking through awesome mountains in the back of a truck uncomfortable). Sometimes I feel like it's this weird kind of exploitation, though obviously I don't intend that.

I'd love to hear more of those kinds of thoughts!

[black magick hustla]

revolutionary tourism is so silly. its a white leftist thing.

I dont think travelling around to meet militants is silly, but the whole western romance surrounding the zapatistas is borderline chauvinistic

[YSR]

UR, I think you were mostly here and gone before my time, but anyway hey.

I just got back from a couple of months in the DF and I had a lot of the same inner debates and discomfort about visiting EZLN territory that you did. In the end I decided not to go down there, because of my concern about revolutionary tourism (also I left the country earlier than I expected because of the eeeevilll swine flu scare). But now I'm sort of regretting it.

[Pogue]

revolutionary tourism is so silly. its a white leftist thing.

I dont think travelling around to meet militants is silly, but the whole western romance surrounding the zapatistas is borderline chauvinistic

Whats chauvinistic about it? I agree there is a strong degree of romance, but if they've employed libertarian socialism in such a unique setting we're obviously going to be interested and want to go meet with them. I see it as no different to how I might go to Greece and spend time with anarchists there, to see how they do things and generally experience what its like. As has been said, its a beneficial experience.

I don't think its chauvinistic to want to experience and meet with comrades in a culture different to ours and see how they have gone about seeting up libertarian socialism.

[Pogue]

UR, I think you were mostly here and gone before my time, but anyway hey.

I just got back from a couple of months in the DF and I had a lot of the same inner debates and discomfort about visiting EZLN territory that you did. In the end I decided not to go down there, because of my concern about revolutionary tourism (also I left the country earlier than I expected because of the eeeevilll swine flu scare). But now I'm sort of regretting it.

I would have gone, and its something I intend to do. Its all about how you approach it. If you went intending to be just that, a tourist, take some pictures, ooo and awww, then your being a revolutionary tourist, but if you go to learn, share ideas, generally expand upon your experience, wicked. No different from going anywhere else. They are normal people not some rare artefact you're exploiting by wishing to share with them.

[Led Zeppelin]

Ha, long time no see Urban Rubble.

Not sure if you remember me, I used to go by Marxism-Leninism, Massoud and Sartre. :)

[black magick hustla]

Whats chauvinistic about it? I agree there is a strong degree of romance, but if they've employed libertarian socialism in such a unique setting we're obviously going to be interested and want to go meet with them. I see it as no different to how I might go to Greece and spend time with anarchists there, to see how they do things and generally experience what its like. As has been said, its a beneficial experience.

I don't think its chauvinistic to want to experience and meet with comrades in a culture different to ours and see how they have gone about seeting up libertarian socialism.

Well, that is the problem. You think that is socialism. It is just peasants organizing themselves in the way older mexican indigenous cultures did. There is nothing revolutionary about it.

[Urban Rubble]

Haha, of course I remember you man! Victor, right?


revolutionary tourism is so silly. its a white leftist thing.

I'm not sure I agree with that at all. Perhaps it's a phenomenon of leftists from affluent countries, but to label it a "white leftist thing" seems kind of ridiculous. I think anyone who can afford it would naturally enjoy seeing a social movement that they support firsthand.

For my part, I'm a student and I also work as a Union organizer. I don't make a lot of money, but I'm pretty good at saving and I chose, in this case, to spend some money to see something I find enjoyable and worthwhile. I understand the potential issues surrounding this kind of thing, but I am conscious of my actions and don't see how they can be construed negatively. Perhaps it isn't overly significant, but I don't see it as harmful.

As far as the "romance" of the Zapatistas, well, we could talk for hours of romanticism of revolutionary movements. My opinion of the Zapatistas is that they represent a valuable lesson for the future of social movements. I don't consider them, nor do they consider themselves, the catalyst for some kind of revolutionary movement in Mexico. Regardless, I find what they are doing interesting, worthwhile and I support them wholeheartedly. Just as I support countless other movements throughout the world.

The Zapatista movement is close to my home, it is taking place in an area that I love independently of the political situation (I am hugely interested in Mayan history and Latin America history in general) and, naturally, the spectacle of it all has a special place in my heart. I see nothing chauvinistic about giving moral support to their movement. They themselves have expressed appreciation at the international attention and maintain that it is essential to their survival.

Would you care to elaborate on this?

[Led Zeppelin]

Nah, my name ain't Victor. :p

That was RedZeppelin I think, the guy from Brazil.

[Urban Rubble]

Well, that is the problem. You think that is socialism. It is just peasants organizing themselves in the way older mexican indigenous cultures did. There is nothing revolutionary about it.

Wow.

What you don't understand is that for Mayan peasants to be able to utilize their traditional forms of social and political organization IS revolutionary. Any amount of decision making power that is taken from the local caciques and handed to the Zapatista base is a step in a revolutionary direction for the peasants of Southern Mexico.

Are you seriously trying to claim that the Zapatista's focus on autonomous, democratic, collective and decentralized organization has nothing in common with Socialism? Granted, they have refused the banner of Marxism and are not seeking state power (or the dictatorship of the proletariat), but this has little to do with their struggle.

I would argue that your insistence of a pre-ordained, sanctified form of Socialism is the real source of chauvinism vis a vis the Zapatistas.

LedZep-

Ah, my mistake. Now I remember, there were two Zeppelin-esque usernames, haha.

[black magick hustla]

I had a spar with YSR about it a while ago. I obviously cannot prove what I am saying but I get the feeling that a lot of western anarchists feel an affinity with the zapatistas because it is exotic and "downtrodden" - and thus they don't really give a thought about it. The zapatistas are a nationalist movement with their own cultural platform and with some very reformist demands. They do not have an agenda of workers' revolution. They do not have a class analysis. The only thing that someone can argue that is "radical" might be their way of organizing but tbh I dont think organizational questions are as important as other rthings. I am not saying they are not good people, but the politics they have are not remarkable at all.

What I am saying is that the issue why white leftists visit a lot the zapatistas is because it is adventurous. Beyond the trill you get from being there there is nothing politically important thnat you are achieving. It has about the same worth as kids going to cancun to get drunk and fuck. The whole zapatista tourism should be recognized as what it is - tourism. It might be wonderful, you make a lot of friends in the jungle and you get to take a picture with mr. subcomandante marcus and his whole gimmicky outfit with his gimicky headless chicken, and you might patrol with weapons and feel yourself like a revolutionary like mr. additives free did, but it is self-delusion that you are doing some sort of wortwhile militant work.

[black magick hustla]

Wow.

What you don't understand is that for Mayan peasants to be able to utilize their traditional forms of social and political organization IS revolutionary. Any amount of decision making power that is taken from the local caciques and handed to the Zapatista base is a step in a revolutionary direction for the peasants of Southern Mexico.

Are you seriously trying to claim that the Zapatista's focus on autonomous, democratic, collective and decentralized organization has nothing in common with Socialism? Granted, they have refused the banner of Marxism and are not seeking state power (or the dictatorship of the proletariat), but this has little to do with their struggle.

Ah, my mistake. Now I remember, there were two Zeppelin-esque usernames, haha.


1) I don't think peasant communes are revolutionary.

2) Radical liberals have also demands about autonomy, democracy, collectivity etc. These are not the main socialist questions. The main socialist question is the one of workers' revolution.

[Pogue]

I had a spar with YSR about it a while ago. I obviously cannot prove what I am saying but I get the feeling that a lot of western anarchists feel an affinity with the zapatistas because it is exotic and "downtrodden" - and thus they don't really give a thought about it. The zapatistas are a nationalist movement with their own cultural platform and with some very reformist demands. They do not have an agenda of workers' revolution. They do not have a class analysis. The only thing that someone can argue that is "radical" might be their way of organizing but tbh I dont think organizational questions are as important as other rthings. I am not saying they are not good people, but the politics they have are not remarkable at all.


I suggest you look at what they are saying and doing then. What they had was essentially a localised revolution and you'll find their demands and beliefs are anything but reformist. The politics are not remarkable, thats the point. Its libertarian socialism in action, working. I think you'll find their position on workers revolution interesting.


What I am saying is that the issue why white leftists visit a lot the zapatistas is because it is adventurous. Beyond the trill you get from being there there is nothing politically important thnat you are achieving. It has about the same worth as kids going to cancun to get drunk and fuck. The whole zapatista tourism should be recognized as what it is - tourism. It might be wonderful, you make a lot of friends in the jungle and you get to take a picture with mr. subcomandante marcus and his whole gimmicky outfit with his gimicky headless chicken, and you might patrol with weapons and feel yourself like a revolutionary like mr. additives free did, but it is self-delusion that you are doing some sort of wortwhile militant work.

Who said it was revolutionary though? We just said we think it's interesting and a wortwhile experience, more useful than some average package holiday somewhere. If you have the time to do it, I see nothing wrong with it. See it as visiting some comrades in struggle.

[Pogue]

1) I don't think peasant communes are revolutionary.

2) Radical liberals have also demands about autonomy, democracy, collectivity etc. These are not the main socialist questions. The main socialist question is the one of workers' revolution.

And the EZLN make it clear they support workers revolution. They are internationalist and revolutionary in perspective.

[black magick hustla]

I suggest you look at what they are saying and doing then. What they had was essentially a localised revolution and you'll find their demands and beliefs are anything but reformist. The politics are not remarkable, thats the point. Its libertarian socialism in action, working. I think you'll find their position on workers revolution interesting.

I know probably more about the zapatistas than the average guy here. The issue here is that there is no such thing as localized revolution or localized libertarian socialism. Its akin to making a buisness co-op. I mean it might be nice but I don't think it is as important or remarkable as you people say.




Who said it was revolutionary though? We just said we think it's interesting and a wortwhile experience, more useful than some average package holiday somewhere. If you have the time to do it, I see nothing wrong with it. See it as visiting some comrades in struggle.

I might have been harsh but still I disagree with the gist of your statement. For example, going to see the pyramids in Egypt is more worthwile than going to Cancun and getting herpes but it is about the same as going to Chiapas. The pyramids are a beautiful testament of humanity. I might visit chiapas someday but I wouldn't look at it as some sort of political work.

[black magick hustla]

And the EZLN make it clear they support workers revolution. They are internationalist and revolutionary in perspective.

No they are not. They quote the goddamn constitution and call for a Mexico for mexicans. IF you know spanish, read this. http://es.internationalism.org/rm/2006/91_sexta

To hell with the mexican state and the constitution.

[Urban Rubble]

This is fun! I'm so happy to be back.

I'm going to go have fun in one of Seattle's rare sunny days, I literally cannot wait to come back and talk about this though.

One thing I want to ask you before I go. If I understand correctly, you're saying that the Zapatistas do not qualify as a revolutionary organization because they have not placed the workers revolution as the centerpiece of their struggle. Is that about right?

Tell me then, what does it take for people who populate an area without a significant Proletarian class to fit your definition of "revolutionary"? It seems that your position leaves them two options; place the workers struggle at the forefront of their movement (thereby divorcing it from anything relatable to the peasant's daily struggle),or be left behind by your theoretical Revolutionary movement.

The peasants of Chiapas are, in large part, not involved in Industrial production. Does that mean they have no relevance to the Socialist cause? Do you advocate that we withdraw our support and affinity due to the absence of industrial development and a proletarian class in Chiapas?

[Urban Rubble]

No they are not. They quote the goddamn constitution and call for a Mexico for mexicans. IF you know spanish, read this. http://es.internationalism.org/rm/2006/91_sexta

To hell with the mexican state and the constitution.

They have also produced a heaping mound of literature which explicitly states that the Zapatista areas are not a part of Mexico, have no relationship with the Mexican state and do not seek any accommodation with the State.

The fact that the Zapatistas, as a Mexican peasant organization, quote the Mexican constitution is not enough to paint them as reformers.

Furthermore, their call for a "Mexico for Mexicans", despite you wrenching it from it's context, is simply a statement calling for the political inclusion of Mexico's long neglected indigenous population. I think you understand that and your use of that statement seems a bit disingenuous.

[Bilan]

I don't think you were here when I arrived.
I initially went by "Bite the Hand", ''Proper tea is theft" etc. etc.

[PeaderO'Donnell]

And the EZLN make it clear they support workers revolution. They are internationalist and revolutionary in perspective.

They also have the words National Liberation in their title....Wouldnt that make them bold and bad nationalists in your view?

[Bilan]

Shut up.

[BOZG]

Tyler!

I had a strange urge to send you an abusive text message just a few days ago.

[An archist]

First off, this is not a complaint, I'm just having a hard time.

Issue #1: Who are you people? I think if you change a long time username it should be REQUIRED to add your old one in your sig. I'm looking around seeing people with 6000 posts that I've never heard of. I demand help!

I completely agree with this one, I think it's already annoyinh when people change their picture too often, with the name-chanigng on top, you just don't know who's saying what anymore.

[Raúl Duke]

Welcome back I remember you.
I still have the same user name.

[Urban Rubble]

I might have been harsh but still I disagree with the gist of your statement. For example, going to see the pyramids in Egypt is more worthwile than going to Cancun and getting herpes but it is about the same as going to Chiapas. The pyramids are a beautiful testament of humanity. I might visit chiapas someday but I wouldn't look at it as some sort of political work.


I can just hear him talking to Che Guevara in the 50's "So you bought a motorcycle and plan to drive it up to Central America, psssssh, big deal, as if that will have any political result".

I love your mathematical formula for determining the value of a person's travels, quite a system you've worked out there.

[Forward Union]

I had a spar with YSR about it a while ago. I obviously cannot prove what I am saying but I get the feeling that a lot of western anarchists feel an affinity with the zapatistas because it is exotic and "downtrodden"

No that's not why.


The zapatistas are a nationalist movement In what way? They recognise the need for the international destruction of capitalism (yes, they use the term neo-liberalism, but have openly admitted that this is inseperable from capitalism as an economic phenomina) and have spent a long time trying to build links internationally.

Oh no they use the Mexican flag, cry me a river. After robust attempts by the government to portray them as "Foreign agitators from Guetemala" and later as "separatists lead by foreigners" it was important for them to create an image of national affinity. Frankly I live in the real world. And don't care very much what colour the cloth they wave around is or what songs they sing. I care about their political platform, which is not sympathetic to the mexican borgeiosie, and is so to the working class.

I dunno, maybe you're right and they should have ignored the government slander and just told the Mexican people that they were against all borders and that "the working class has no nation". That would have worked really well for them. Maybe they (or some other group) should hire you as a PR tactician. You'd do a great job.


with their own cultural platform As opposed to someone elses?


and with some very reformist demands.

Yea, like those fucking union twats demanding the 8 hour working day. Fucking reformists.


the politics they have are not remarkable at all. What you mean is they haven't adopted the most extream left communist position imaginable, so ultra leftist it defies reality and goes off the map. I mean, why havent the EZLN become an international army, and attempted to invade Italy or the UK? Don't they know that capitalism is international????

Firstly, the leadership of the EZLN is Maoist, or very influenced by. But the actions of the EZLN and the CCRI are determined by the confused and far from monlithic block of people that make up their communitites. Many of their statements are somewhat vague, and on occasion contradictory.

Marcos himself has certainly identified the need for international workers revolution. I heard him say it in person. The point is that their general declarations have gone little further than opposing the obvious impacts of Neo-liberalism on the peasants of chiapas because it's the illiterate peasants of chiapas who wrote them. They don't even know that England is in Europe or that there was a second world war let alone detailed plans for international proletarian revolution.

Jesus fuckignchrist. The desire to overthrow their own government in cooperation with all the workers and peasants of mexico and to coordinate attacks on globalisation with like minded unionsand groups around the world just isn't enough for some people is it.


It has about the same worth as kids going to cancun to get drunk and fuck. The whole zapatista tourism should be recognized as what it is - tourism.But that's just not true. OPDIC attacks on zapatista villiages are not possible when white people are stationed there. The presance of internationals (of any race of country) is supportive and reenforcing. I know that when I have done campaigns in the UK, i've been incredibly inspired by the verbal (occasionally physical) support of international groups/people. I certainly take more use from that than if someone went and got drunk and fucked in brighton.

I think you're exagerating to the point of making a parody of yourself. What you'd be better off sayin is "The utility of working in zapatista communitites is not the primary reason people go"

In which case I think you are right. But there is a important n line between people who go just for the kicks, and people who go to get kicks whilst trying to help with something. I've met people who went there, got up at 5am, worked hard all day ate little and slept, I've also met people who brought bags of chocolate and took loads of photos and did "interviews". This is an important distinction that you are trying to blur with overly generic terms like "zapatourism". Last time I went somewhere on holiday I certainly didn't enlist to do any work for the country I was in.

Furthermore, do you think the Zapatistas themselves set up these work programs simply to give American tourists fun kicks? Do they share your cynical view of the volunteer workforce they're glad to have Or do they perhaps see a useful function in continuing the projects. I mean, if we asked the Juntas, in person, if they would be happy to cancel in support projects and tell all volonteers to fuck off to Cancun and get drunk, they'd agree that it'd be a good idea? would they agree that if all the volonteer workforce went to cancun and had fun it'd be just as useful to them as if they stayed and worked? Clearly the Zaps want zapatista-tourists to 1) coe and 2) do some work.

I also t hink theres a line between people who go there on specific political bussiness, such as being a delegate at one of the Zaps encuentros, and people who go to see what work they can do.


you get to take a picture with mr. subcomandante marcus and his whole gimmicky outfit with his gimicky headless chicken, and you might patrol with weapons and feel yourself like a revolutionary like mr. additives free did, but it is self-delusion that you are doing some sort of wortwhile militant work.Hows you're university education in America going?

[Forward Union]

They also have the words National Liberation in their title....Wouldnt that make them bold and bad nationalists in your view?

It has the words national liberation in it's name because that's what it is. An army that wants to liberate the nation it's in. This does n't address what HLVS added.

I recommend you right to the EZLN and tell them they should declare war on every country in the world and change their name to the EZLI

The EZLN is not the zapatista movement anyway. It's just a regional volunteer army that receives taxes and responds to those taxpayers (zapatistas) demands.

[Forward Union]

The fact that the Zapatistas, as a Mexican peasant organization, quote the Mexican constitution is not enough to paint them as reformers.

Yes. They quote one or two parts of the constitution which were written during the Mexican Revolution


Furthermore, their call for a "Mexico for Mexicans", despite you wrenching it from it's context, is simply a statement calling for the political inclusion of Mexico's long neglected indigenous population. I think you understand that and your use of that statement seems a bit disingenuous.

Yes and ought to be contrasted with "Para todos todo"

[Urban Rubble]

An epic response, much more coherent than I think I'd have managed.

And I was just planning on letting the thread die, haha.

[Bright Banana Beard]

They shot a worker, they want to destroy that government and not the world. Fuck them - typical left communist respond

[Bilan]

I don't think Left Communists want to destroy the world.
Also, there is a reason why we place the working class at the center of our politics (to but it clumsily), it's not just a random choice.

[Forward Union]

I don't think Left Communists want to destroy the world.
Also, there is a reason why we place the working class at the center of our politics (to but it clumsily), it's not just a random choice.

No ones objecting the the historical importance of the working class.

What we object to is the left-communist onesizefitsall response to all issues "workers of the world must unite to overthrow international capitalism" Anything short of absolute ultra-leftism is unacceptable to them. They prefer complete inactivity.

This ultra-leftism has also infected Anarchism and has lead to a complete poverty analysis in regard to issues like Imperialism and Trade Unionism. But this is off topic.