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View Full Version : Trotskyist vs. Stalinist foreign policy



JimmyJazz
10th June 2009, 19:44
One of the main disagreements between Stalinism and Trotskyism is over what should be the overarching goal of the foreign policy of a socialist state: To push for revolution anywhere and at any time that it seems at all possible (Trotsky), or to try and increase the security of the existing socialist state(s) (Stalin).

On the basis of this difference, the more partisan Stalinists have been able to portray the Trotskyists as "abandoning the Soviet Union", and the more partisan Trotskyists have been able to portray the Stalinists as "abandoning the world proletariat".

Another way to characterize the difference is to say that Trotskyism applies to foreign policy the Bolshevik position of October 1917, which says that the proletariat in relatively backward countries can take a leading role in carrying out the tasks of a "bourgeois"-democratic revolution, whereas Stalinist foreign policy applies a rigid Menshevik-style stageism. But this is a Trotskyist characterization of the difference, and I don't really know what the Stalinist reply to it would be. I also happen to think that this way of characterizing it is less useful, since it seems likely to me that rigid stageism was not a genuine theoretical position held by the Stalinist government of the USSR, but an ideological cover for their actual goal, which was to increase their own security.

I don't like all aspects of the Trotskyist movement, but I would have to say that I generally agree with Troskyism on the foreign policy issue.

First of all, I agree with the general priniciple that the only thing which can guarantee the security of existing socialist states is for more states to go socialist, i.e., for there to be a world revolution as quickly as possible. Anything else is short-sighted. This seems like common sense as well as an obvious tenet of classical Marxism.

Second of all, in the specific historical instances I have read about--China 1925-27, Spain 1936-39, Greece 1947-early 1950s--the Soviet Union basically turned on revolutionary movements which otherwise had a good chance of succeeding.

So my questions are:

1. Do anti-revisionists today defend the foreign policy of the Soviet Union under Stalin in general? In the specific instances I listed? In other instances where Trotskyists claim that Stalin betrayed the world proletariat? If so, on what basis?

2. Did Maoist foreign policy follow in the Stalinist tradition of considering the security of the Chinese state paramount? (I don't know any real details of Chinese foreign policy, I just know general facts such as that they gave military aid to Korea and Vietnam; I also know that a lot of what they did was motivated by the Sino-Soviet split).

3. Would you consider this a moral/ideological difference between Stalinists and Trotkysists or merely a strategic difference? To me it seems like the latter.

LeninBalls
10th June 2009, 20:43
It just annoys me how you think "Stalinists" have an undesiring goal to "abandon the world proletariat".

Blah blah we believe Stalin built socialism in one country because worldwide revolution died but if there was left wing radical movements worldwide he would've and did support them blah blah blah blah.

JimmyJazz
10th June 2009, 20:53
Although it's obvious you didn't read the OP and have no substantive reply, I will go ahead and explain why I used the word "Stalinist". It's because I was referring to Stalin and his contemporary supporters in the Soviet Union, not to today's Marxist-Leninists/Anti-revisionists. I was using the term quite literally, so its use here can't be construed as a smear.

When I referred to modern upholders of Stalin in question 1, I called them Anti-Revisionists as they prefer to be called.

Black Sheep
10th June 2009, 21:23
whereas Stalinist foreign policy applies a rigid Menshevik-style stageism
Many anti-revisionist CPs do have/had such a tendency,like in Spain and Greece.
Hell,the national liberation front in greece,founded by the CP of Greece,was a nationalist front.While the popularity of the armed struggle and the forces of the partisans were very high, the party kept reatreating, limiting the potential of the struggle and eventually tore it apart by laying down arms, as a term for god damn elections.

OP's questions are very intersting, i anticipate for an answer by both antirevisionists and trotskyists.

Wakizashi the Bolshevik
13th June 2009, 09:30
Are there actually people here who believe Stalinists want nothing more than "to secure the existing Socialist countries"?
Bullshit. Stalinists want to spread the Revolution from a strong and stabile Socialist nation. Only with Socialism safely based in one area, we can spread Socialism to others. If we start spreading to rashly, we risk losing Socialism in the first country.

x359594
16th June 2009, 21:56
...(I don't know any real details of Chinese foreign policy, I just know general facts such as that they gave military aid to Korea and Vietnam; I also know that a lot of what they did was motivated by the Sino-Soviet split)...

The PRC gave very little military or any other kind of aid to North Vietnam (they gave no aid at all the NLF in the south.) In fact, the PRC fought a border war the unified Vietnam in 1979.

On the other hand, the PRC intervened militarily on behalf of the DPRK in the 1950-53 war (Mao's son died in combat there,) and since then the PRC has been North Korea's closest ally.

Maoist foreign policy centered around border disputes with the USSR and India and attempts to roll back socialism on its peripheries. The CCP maintained friendly relations with parties in the Eastern Bloc and Maoist parties in the West as well as Asia.

Certainly Mao believed in the inevitability of communist revolution in the third world and in the whole of Asia ("the East is Red").

Nothing Human Is Alien
17th June 2009, 00:13
If we start spreading to rashly, we risk losing Socialism in the first country.

That's a risk you have to take. If the revolution doesn't spread, then it's not a risk but a guarantee that you will "loose Socialism" [sic].

"After expropriating the capitalists and organising their own socialist production, the victorious proletariat of that country will arise against the rest of the world—the capitalist world—attracting to its cause the oppressed classes of other countries, stirring uprisings in those countries against the capitalists, and in case of need using even armed force against the exploiting classes and their states."- Lenin

Nothing Human Is Alien
17th June 2009, 00:16
2. Did Maoist foreign policy follow in the Stalinist tradition of considering the security of the Chinese state paramount?

The PRC's leadership openly admitted this as motivation for their actions. According to them the USSR was the "main enemy" in the world, i.e. the biggest threat to the Chinese regime.

Black Sheep
17th June 2009, 01:18
Are there actually people here who believe Stalinists want nothing more than "to secure the existing Socialist countries"?
Bullshit. Stalinists want to spread the Revolution from a strong and stabile Socialist nation.
That's bullshit man, Stalinists want freedom, you know? Socialism man, you know?

What a nice bit of useful information,backed by an avalanche of sources and arguments.


Only with Socialism safely based in one area, we can spread Socialism to others. If we start spreading to rashly, we risk losing Socialism in the first country.
Well, trotskyists will say that any worker's state attempting to fortify itself and isolate it from the rest of the world will degenerate into a bureaucratic dictatorship.
(However straightforward evidence or logical steps for that to happen for that i haven't seen yet, apart from historical examples, which are debatable)
What is it? Exterior political & propaganda pressure? Because economicaly, a worker's state with a socialist economy can manage just fine.