I love criticizing Obama in front of liberals

[GPDP]

It's fun to see their reactions to criticism of their glorious leader from a far-left communist perspective. They're so used to defending him from far-right conservative wankery about Obama being a secret socialist Muslim that when someone comes out and attacks him for being a right-wing imperialist asshole, they get caught off guard. :lol:

[NecroCommie]

:laugh: Damn if there would only be Obama wankers here...

[GPDP]

It's especially funny when they jump the gun, and assume I'm some neocon blowhard and blast me as such. I even seem to recall being called a racist once! :D

[ZeroNowhere]

It's especially funny when they jump the gun, and assume I'm some neocon blowhard and blast me as such. I even seem to recall being called a racist once! :DI've been accused of the former, though not the latter. Though I'm fairly sure I will be some time soon. We have a lot of Obamaites here who call themselves 'socialists', and I derive quite a lot of entertainment from this.

[NecroCommie]

I've been accused of the former, though not the latter. Though I'm fairly sure I will be some time soon. We have a lot of Obamaites here who call themselves 'socialists', and I derive quite a lot of entertainment from this.
I would go, identify myself as a socialist, and ask them what is their interpitation of marxist class struggle. They would either prove themselves morons, piss their pants, or not be Obamites.

[RHIZOMES]

It's fun to see their reactions to criticism of their glorious leader from a far-left communist perspective. They're so used to defending him from far-right conservative wankery about Obama being a secret socialist Muslim that when someone comes out and attacks him for being a right-wing imperialist asshole, they get caught off guard. :lol:

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Arizona Bay

[MakeYourFuture]

Are you all ameriacans here? Beause it's funny when in France we hear that some americans consider Obama as a communist. He's more at right than Sarkozy for us! But a lot of French love Obama.

[ZeroNowhere]

Are you all ameriacans here? Beause it's funny when in France we hear that some americans consider Obama as a communist. He's more at right than Sarkozy for us! But a lot of French love Obama.Nah, I'm currently in Singapore.

[Il Medico]

It's especially funny when they jump the gun, and assume I'm some neocon blowhard and blast me as such. I even seem to recall being called a racist once! :D
I've been called both, you criticize Obama, and they go ape-shit on you if they're liberals, and if they are right wingers, then the nod their head in approval, until it becomes obvious your a leftist, then to look of shock is priceless! :laugh:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

As boring as Obama is, I can't describe how badass it was when he wrote a note for someone's kid.

[GPDP]

I've been called both, you criticize Obama, and they go ape-shit on you if they're liberals, and if they are right wingers, then the nod their head in approval, until it becomes obvious your a leftist, then to look of shock is priceless! :laugh:

Oh, that too.

"Obama sucks."
"Yeah, he does."
"I know, right? That socialist is gonna raise taxes and is going to destroy America!"
"I'm actually more concerned with his refusal to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, his contempt for universal health care, and his unequivocal support for Israel."
"Yeah, I bet he's a secret Mus- wait, what."

[Al Kaline]

Im a socialist and support Obama. I mean its a hell of a lot better than the Bush days and sure hes not a full left winger but thats only because if he goes full left then he would loose all support and USA would fall to the right again. He is playing a very smart game of riding on the center right now and trying to do as much as a man can possibly do without causing a right wing uprising. If I was in his spot, I would have an emotional break down with all the pressure and the responsibilities and work. I kind of feel sorry for the guy :/ And before you go and criticism him for what he hasnt done yet, first think of how much time it has been since he was elected, how much work he has to do and how much support from the senate he is getting and how much people expect of him. Not many months, a crap ton of stuff, not much support from both sides and a crap ton is expected from 1 man, I mean, people practically expect him to fix the world

[Il Medico]

Oh, that too.

"Obama sucks."
"Yeah, he does."
"I know, right? That socialist is gonna raise taxes and is going to destroy America!"
"I'm actually more concerned with his refusal to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, his contempt for universal health care, and his unequivocal support for Israel."
"Yeah, I bet he's a secret Mus- wait, what."
Ha Ha! Classic.
I had a similar conversation once.

[ZeroNowhere]

I mean its a hell of a lot better than the Bush daysBush did not like 'Twilight', or at least publicly admit to it. Bush also had the ability to give entertaining speeches. So no.

[GPDP]

Im a socialist and support Obama.

How can you be a socialist and support a right-wing capitalist and avowed imperialist?


I mean its a hell of a lot better than the Bush days and sure hes not a full left winger but thats only because if he goes full left then he would loose all support and USA would fall to the right again.

Congratulations. We ousted Bush, and got Bush lite. And I have to disagree about the reasons for Obama not going "full left". It's not due to concern that he might go too far and lose support. For that to happen, he would have to actually have real, actual leftist tendencies for him to suppress in the first place. And I've seen nothing to suggest that he does.


He is playing a very smart game of riding on the center right now and trying to do as much as a man can possibly do without causing a right wing uprising.

It's called following the 'violin model': you hold power with the left hand and play the music with the right. He appeals to people with leftist convictions with progressive-sounding rhetoric to gain their support, while turning around and completely reneging on his message of "hope" and "change." He dresses up the same old shit in a nice left-populist package that makes it easy for left-liberals to swallow his policies, and thus pacify them and keep them from pressuring him to actually follow through. It's like using lubricant to smooth out the passage of the broom stick that's about to be rammed up your ass.


If I was in his spot, I would have an emotional break down with all the pressure and the responsibilities and work. I kind of feel sorry for the guy :/

I doubt he's in any kind of emotional breakdown, not when he knows he has the backing of his nigh-brainwashed supporters as well as the majority of the capitalist class - you know, the people who actually matter to him. And even if he was, I don't tend to feel sorry for people who do not feel it worth their time to sympathize with the plight of people currently suffering under the yoke of American imperialism, such as those in Palestine or Iraq.


And before you go and criticism him for what he hasnt done yet, first think of how much time it has been since he was elected, how much work he has to do and how much support from the senate he is getting and how much people expect of him. Not many months, a crap ton of stuff, not much support from both sides and a crap ton is expected from 1 man, I mean, people practically expect him to fix the world

Not my fault he marketed himself as the messiah to a new generation of liberals.

And don't give me that shit about him not being in office long enough to do anything substantial. First of all, I have no reason to believe he even intends to do anything substantial. None of his policy proposals for the forseeable future indicate a truly significant departure from past administrations. And even if he did, he really could have done some things by now if he really wanted to. He could have vacated Iraq within 90 days of him taking office, for one. The majority of the American people would have supported such a move, I am sure.

And in any case, this debate is ultimately irrelevant. Even if Obama was half as progressive as F.D. Roosevelt was (and even he left much to be desired), and he's not, there is ultimately a limit to what a president can or cannot do. The president ultimately is the figurehead of the American empire, and thus he answers to the ruling class before anyone else. And they are very resistant to fundamental change; even very basic social-democratic measures, such as universal health care, are fiercely opposed in this country.

The only reason F.D. Roosevelt got as far as he did with his New Deal programs was due to growing working class militancy, which pushed him to create programs to appease them. And even then, he could only go so far before the masters of capital pushed the brakes on the New Deal's progress. We are unfortunately missing that militancy at present times, and without that militancy, we cannot hope to get even a modicum of progressive reforms out of Obama. He certainly will not do it out of the kindness of his heart, because it has not been his intention to do so from the beginning.

But even if we do get that militancy back, why stop there? Why settle for becoming mere Obama pressure groups? The fundamental problem with society - capitalism - will remain intact. If you are a socialist, you will look past such reformism, and embrace the inevitable reality that socialism will only come about through the will of the people, a will that is diametrically opposed to that of the ruling class and the state. And if they will not step aside peacefully, and they won't, then we need to make them step aside by force.

But go ahead and keep supporting the lesser evil. Never mind that the Democrats have been going further and further right with the passage of time, coincidentally as working class militancy has been going further and further down.

If you're still not convinced of Obama's reactionary streak, check out this man's criticisms of him. I'm sure you'll find some of it enlightnening:

http://www.zmag.org/zspace/paulstreet

[ZeroNowhere]

Even if Obama was half as progressive as F.D. Roosevelt was (and even he left much to be desired)Ah yes, FDR. Proving that as used in common parlance, 'progressive' and 'conservative' are not mutually exclusive, and sometimes the former is the most effective form of the latter.

[GPDP]

Ah yes, FDR. Proving that as used in common parlance, 'progressive' and 'conservative' are not mutually exclusive, and sometimes the former is the most effective form of the latter.

Indeed. his "progressivism" was a front for his desire to preserve the system, which is why I said the New Deal was created in response to working class militancy in order to appease them. But even so, Obama's so much more to the right that he makes FDR look like fucking Hugo Chavez.

[Al Kaline]

Well I understand what you are talking about but it isnt realistic to say full leftist or bust. And hes not really a capitalist, hes more of a mercantilist. The republicans have really gone off the deep end and a lot of them are talking about another civil war and seceding. Texas's governor has publicly said that Texas should seceede and many many republicans agree with him. Im less worried about Obama will do and more worried about what the gun toting republicans will do. I live in Texas and I've been to the peoples houses here, they are practically forts, with all their guns. I even heard at one gun show in California, they were selling RPG's!

[GPDP]

Well I understand what you are talking about but it isnt realistic to say full leftist or bust.

In the case of Obama, he doesn't really have a leftist bone in him in any meaningful degree to speak of. He's not even pseudo-leftist. He is a right-of-center moderate conservative.


And hes not really a capitalist, hes more of a mercantilist.

What the hell? Obama is definitely a capitalist. Just because he favors some regulation of the market and supports public subsidies and bailouts of private companies does not alter that fact. He supports the system of private ownership of the means of production largely as it is, and he is doing what he can to preserve it. It doesn't matter if he's not a free market fanatic if that's what you're getting at. Free market fundamentalism =/= the end-all be-all of capitalist ideology.


The republicans have really gone off the deep end and a lot of them are talking about another civil war and seceding. Texas's governor has publicly said that Texas should seceede and many many republicans agree with him.

Wow, a bunch of ignorant hicks and sore losers are blowing hot air. Let them. Their threats are ultimately empty for the most part.


Im less worried about Obama will do and more worried about what the gun toting republicans will do. I live in Texas and I've been to the peoples houses here, they are practically forts, with all their guns. I even heard at one gun show in California, they were selling RPG's!

The "gun-toters" (as if it was a bad thing to own guns) are kittens compared to the arsenal of destruction at Obama's fingertips should he choose to use it. And he is willing to expand the War of Terror beyond its current level of misery and destruction.

Crazy right-wing loons are bad, yes, but going after them while giving the American state a pass just because the president is not as crazed truly shows your liberal convictions for what they are. Meanwhile, socialists of all stripes recognize the fundamental problem at stake: capitalism, and its primary enforcer in the American empire. Such is the difference between a liberal and a socialist.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well I understand what you are talking about but it isnt realistic to say full leftist or bust. And hes not really a capitalist, hes more of a mercantilist. The republicans have really gone off the deep end and a lot of them are talking about another civil war and seceding. Texas's governor has publicly said that Texas should seceede and many many republicans agree with him. Im less worried about Obama will do and more worried about what the gun toting republicans will do. I live in Texas and I've been to the peoples houses here, they are practically forts, with all their guns. I even heard at one gun show in California, they were selling RPG's!

Well, he is a capitalist by virtue of heading the biggest capitalist country in the world.

At the same time, I don't think it's particularly useful for the left for people to "shock" Obama supporters by calling him a right-wing imperialist.

If someone apologies or supports Obama's imperialism, then, yes, go all out and have that argument. Otherwise you can explain how Obama is a capitalist and imperialist until you are blue in the fact but you won't move that person one inch closer to radical consciousness. In fact, they will probably intrench themselves deeper in Obama-support.

When radicals say that Obama is the same as Bush, people who don't have radical conciousness reead that as: you are stupid to hope that things can be different. Instead, we should say hey, people want change, we don't think Obama can deliver because of the nature of the system - so let's get together and figure out how to really get change.

I live in Oakland California where young black and latinos literally danced in the streets when Obama won. I work in political coalitions with Obama supporters and the tact I take is to say: I'm a radical I don't think change comes from an elected official - I think it's up to us right here to make real change. I tell them it's great that there's a black president in a country founded on black slavery and it shows that people want to get rid of racism, so how do we actually achieve that? (Oakland had a large black population and people wear Obama t-shirts, yet not one would say that the US is "post-racial" like Obama says).

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Obama? Who is he?

[swampfox]

While I'm not happy with how Obama plays the political fence and keeps himself in a center most of the time, I do feel he is a lesser evil to someone like George Bush, John McCain or even *shivers* Sarah Palin. I can see he's honestly trying to fix things in America, even if I don't agree with his methods.

Still, I don't like him politically. He's too right for me.

[ZeroNowhere]

While I'm not happy with how Obama plays the political fence and keeps himself in a center most of the time, I do feel he is a lesser evil to someone like George Bush, John McCain or even *shivers* Sarah Palin. I can see he's honestly trying to fix things in America, even if I don't agree with his methods.

Still, I don't like him politically. He's too right for me.To be honest, I would support Palin over Obama if she stood for President, on account of the pissed-off liberals that her victory would cause.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There were a lot of pissed off liberals when Bush won (or stole the election if you believe that). It did not lead to radicalization, it drove liberals into the arms of the most conservative Democrats. Having Republicans call Obama a socialist is good for radicals... we should say, no he's not, but we are and this is what we'd do about the economic crisis, not let's put pressure on him so he does it.

[ZeroNowhere]

There were a lot of pissed off liberals when Bush won (or stole the election if you believe that). It did not lead to radicalization, it drove liberals into the arms of the most conservative Democrats.
Who said anything about radicalization?
Also, they were already supporting Clinton, I don't see how Obama and Kerry are any more conservative than Clinton was.

[GPDP]

Who said anything about radicalization?
Also, they were already supporting Clinton, I don't see how Obama and Kerry are any more conservative than Clinton was.

Indeed. Like my professor said, Clinton was "the best Republican since Abraham Lincoln, though he made a lousy Democrat."

[Jimmie Higgins]

Who said anything about radicalization?
Also, they were already supporting Clinton, I don't see how Obama and Kerry are any more conservative than Clinton was.

I thought you were implying that if Palin were president it would piss off liberals (and therefore cause them to become more radical). If that's what you are saying, I disagree because 8 years of Bush caused liberals to generally become more conservative (and support the most conservative Democrats) rather than radicalizing them.

There are two kinds of liberals: ideological Liberals like politicians and pundits and so on and then there are regular people who support liberalism because they think it's the only way to make the US "more fair". The second group dosn't support liberalism because they see it as a way to preserve capitalism, they just want to end the war get rid of racism and poverty. So I think the best strategy with these people is to say: Ok, we disagree that Obama will be able to deliver these things, but let's work on ending the war and getting rid of racism. If these people work with us on that, then they will have to confront offical liberalism at some point and that will radicalize some of them if they have been exposed to a radical alternative to liberalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Indeed. Like my professor said, Clinton was "the best Republican since Abraham Lincoln, though he made a lousy Democrat."

When Clinton won re-election as a neoliberal "New Democrat" promising to "end welfare as we know it" a Republican Senator said something similar: "The good new is that a Republican has won the Presidency, the bad news is that he's a Democrat".

[The Douche]

I live in Texas and I've been to the peoples houses here, they are practically forts, with all their guns. I even heard at one gun show in California, they were selling RPG's!

Are you opposed to the idea of an armed working class? Better stay out of my house, I have 8 guns, including an "assault rifle"! And no, there were not RPGs for sale at any gun show, especially one in california.