Apprenticeship

[Lynx]

What are your thoughts and experiences regarding apprenticeship?
Were you encouraged to seek employment in the skilled trades?
Is apprenticeship-based education stigmatized where you live?

Your feedback will be appreciated, thank-you :)

p.s. I place this in OI to receive a response from all members and from employer and employee perspective.

[Dimentio]

In Sweden, we have a growing amount of apprenticeships. Mostly because employers get paid for hiring apprentices, and because the Alliance Government has issued a law that all who are on social benefits should apply for apprenticeship. If you are under 25, you could search for apprenticeship for your municipality each summer and they cannot deny you. The state is subsidising some apprenticeships, to for example disabled people.

[IcarusAngel]

My thoughts are that the government really should sponsor people who have an interest in becoming apprentices. Here in my state, the number of people over 25 who have a college degree is only like 29 - 32%. That means a lot of people get "better jobs" i.e. non-service worker jobs through apprenticeships. They are generally sponsored by unions or you have to pay for 'em etc., although I guess there are scholarships for them.

They tend to emphasize the practical and the application over the theoretical and the knowledge of certain fields. For example, a machinist could be very talented although he wouldn't know as much as some who had taken metal sciences or industrial technology, or of course engineering etc.

I would encourage people to take them if the job prospects look good. For example, "machinsts" are expected to decline by 3% for the 2006-2016 decade. But someone could still get a good job doing it. A lot of skilled trades and craftsmenship jobs are going overseas as America becomes more and more an investment economy if you will, so make sure it is an apprenticeship for something that will be around in ten years.

If you want to be an engineer or a biologist (working in a lab) or a programmer, you generally need a four years degree or now even a master's degree for the good jobs.

If worst comes to worst also try looking into the post office. I'm actually working on a program that mirrors the tests they give for their mail processing jobs and corporate jobs, and I could probably get you a copy.

[Robert]

oops, double post.

[Robert]

What are your thoughts and experiences regarding apprenticeship?I went to a state trade school and studied radio electronics. No tuition. As pointed out, pretty superficial exposure to theory, but more than enough, and then straight to hands on soldering, wiring, and troubleshooting.

Upon completion of the course, I was recruited and hired by an oil and gas field services firm that installed, maintained and repaired two-way radios used on oil rigs and the boats that service them.

Livable wage to start, in exchange for mostly fetching and carrying for the super techs, dangerous working conditions, learned a lot, gradually earned more. I don't know if it was "encouraged." The program was there, so I went.

Stigmatized? Well, yes, by some snobs. Among other techs, of course, it's not. And you really can work your way up into management and end up driving a Cadillac and wearing a tie if you want. Or stay blue collar and hang with the same guys after work. You won't get invited to fancy parties if that's what you mean. Same with the hotel industry. You can start as a busboy or bellman and end up a manager. But there's always someone who will look down on you, even if (especially if?) you go to university ("Let's ask college boy, maybe HE knows why this transistor keeps blowing, HAHAHAHAH!"), but that's true of anything, isn't it?

If you go to college at Penn State, won't someone eventually whisper "he tried to get into Penn, you know"?

[NecroCommie]

Here it is considered an equal way of schooling with senior high and the so called "profession school". Our government too sponsors all apprentices so the employer barely has to pay anything. I think I might make my education with this apprenticeship. I have not decided whether I should specialize as a librarian or become a sailor. :confused:

[Bud Struggle]

Also in the USA there are numerous apprenticeshop "colleges" like ITT Tech, University of Phoenix and various nursing schools. They do a pretty good job of training students--in CAD drawing to computer programing to motorcycle repair to culinary training to a lot of other trades.

Most of these "colleges" offer AS programs and some even BS degrees. On the other hand most are for profit and some are parts major America buinesses.

They are expensive, but for the most part are very good programs.

I personally teach a course in photograhy in my local Community College and the school also does a good deal of vacational training--a little more "theoretical" than the Tech schools but from what I see they do a good job.

[Lynx]

It looks like Sweden and other countries are more supportive of apprenticeship methods. I live in Canada. There is no law requiring employers to hire apprentices, however there are regulations that may prevent some employers from qualifying as places for apprenticeship. Older ("Baby Boomer") workers are retiring in increasing numbers and are not being replaced. A labour shortage is anticipated in the skilled trades. When I was in high school, everyone was encouraged to apply for college or university. Perhaps this has not changed.

[Bud Struggle]

When I was in high school, everyone was encouraged to apply for college or university. Perhaps this has not changed.

It's similar in the USA. The interesting thing is that Liberal Arts Colleges are well supported by the governement, but the apprenticeship programs are to a good extent payed for by the individual student. Nothing wrong with BA programs, but the government could do a better job with the trades.

[Lynx]

It's similar in the USA. The interesting thing is that Liberal Arts Colleges are well supported by the governement, but the apprenticeship programs are to a good extent payed for by the individual student. Nothing wrong with BA programs, but the government could do a better job with the trades.
From what I read, the apprenticeship route leaves you with less debt or even no debt, depending on how much you worked and were paid during your apprenticeship. There's a saying: "earn while you learn"

[Bud Struggle]

From what I read, the apprenticeship route leaves you with less debt or even no debt, depending on how much you worked and were paid during your apprenticeship. There's a saying: "earn while you learn"

Yea, a lot of these programs are school/work with learning and then hands on experience. The thing is it seems to me the money that you earn working goes to schooling so in the end the school is the one making out. The businesses also get reduced cost labor--that may be of pretty good quality because it's so well supervised.

I'd just like to see the state being more responsible for such programs--and the apprentices getting more money.

[Lynx]

Yea, a lot of these programs are school/work with learning and then hands on experience. The thing is it seems to me the money that you earn working goes to schooling so in the end the school is the one making out. The businesses also get reduced cost labor--that may be of pretty good quality because it's so well supervised.

I'd just like to see the state being more responsible for such programs--and the apprentices getting more money.
I agree with you. Unfortunately you live in a country that believes in borrowing and living in debt - why would getting an education be any different?
College and university are expensive in Canada too :(

[IcarusAngel]

With the debt comes knowledge. Knowledge is important, so much so that many people do not mind being in debt for years or even the rest of their lives just to get a college degree (it's a snowball effect, because they can't pay off one loan they take out other loans and so on).

Knowledge helps you think about the world, which is ultimately more important than your material possessions. That is why some people put such a high value on education. Of course, others do it because they believe they can get a good job in management etc. and they too are sometimes right.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think the way apprenticeships are run are symptomatic of the class system.

You never see car mantainance garages or hairdressers going to public schools to seek apprentices amongst the affluent classes. To me its a wink and a nod by the education system to get working class kids to 'set their sights lower'.

I find that aspect hideously reactionary.

[Lynx]

You are what you do. Terms like 'trade' and 'profession', blue collar, white collar, are class-based designations. There's a new term, green collar, which refers to green jobs. It's too early to say what place it will occupy in the occupational pecking order.

[RGacky3]

There's a new term, green collar, which refers to green jobs. It's too early to say what place it will occupy in the occupational pecking order.

A meaningless catch phrase, and an attempt to make capitalism seem like its getting "kinder".

[Lynx]

A meaningless catch phrase, and an attempt to make capitalism seem like its getting "kinder".
Perhaps, although I have the feeling this might end up as a job type.

[RGacky3]

All of these so called "green jobs" end up being using mainly your muscle (blue collar) or your brain (white collar).

(I understand that many many so called blue collar jobs require more mental effort than many many so called white collar jobs, this is just a basic broad distinction with very little applicability).

[Dr Mindbender]

You are what you do. Terms like 'trade' and 'profession', blue collar, white collar, are class-based designations. There's a new term, green collar, which refers to green jobs. It's too early to say what place it will occupy in the occupational pecking order.

I think the terms blue and white collar are poorly representative of class anyway. It seems to mainly be the bourgeioise definition, and for good reason it seems.

Call centre workers for example would fall into the white collar category by the above logic of blue=muscle and white=mind, but they're nowhere near on a par with big CEO's or equivalent. Maybe i'm playing too much metal gear solid, but my understanding was that 'green collar' referred specifically to the armed forces.

For the most part, thats also a class defining role. It isnt rich kids bleeding and dying on the battlefield.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You are what you do. Terms like 'trade' and 'profession', blue collar, white collar, are class-based designations. There's a new term, green collar, which refers to green jobs. It's too early to say what place it will occupy in the occupational pecking order.

Somewhere between yellow collar and blue collar, I expect. ;)

[Dr Mindbender]

Fuck collars, there is bourgeioise and proletariat.

There are no collars.

[Bud Struggle]

There are no collars.

I've always said that. We are all workers! Those that work by sweat and those that work by investment.

All hail the workers!:thumbup1:

(Bit of tongue in cheek in the above post. :D)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Fuck collars, there is bourgeioise and proletariat.

There are no collars.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Rainbow-diagram-ROYGBIV.PNG/800px-Rainbow-diagram-ROYGBIV.PNG

Obviously you didn't get the joke.

[Bud Struggle]

Something gay? ;)

(Joke, OK? :D )

[Dr Mindbender]

Obviously you didn't get the joke.

Yeah well, it was a general response to the whole blue vs white collar discussion.

My point is they are meaningless bourgeioise distractions.

[Dr Mindbender]

I've always said that. We are all workers! Those that work by sweat and those that work by investment.

All hail the workers!:thumbup1:

(Bit of tongue in cheek in the above post. :D)


Not a worker.

http://www.businessangelblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bill_gates_718639.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

Not a worker.

http://www.businessangelblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bill_gates_718639.jpg

Nope. He invented what we are talking on. The man did his job. He deserves his reward. He was a good worker.

[Dr Mindbender]

Nope. He invented what we are talking on.
If by ''what we're talking on'' you mean computer, then you're bang wrong even from a cappie perspective.

click click. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage)



The man did his job. He deserves his reward. He was a good worker.
Great man nonsense. He wouldnt have been able to do what he did without hundreds of workers under him.

[trivas7]

He invented what we are talking on.
He didn't invent shit. He ported BASIC to the Quick-and-Dirty Operation System.

[Bud Struggle]

Great man nonsense. He wouldnt have been able to do what he did without hundreds of workers under him.

Yea, yea, yea, His idea. His plan. Give me a break--it's Bill. :rolleyes: He made it work.


He didn't invent shit. He ported BASIC to the Quick-and-Dirty Operation System. And Bill made it magic. He wins.

I'n no general fan of Bill Gates--but he made the computer work for the world. If you guys are so smart where's your OS?

[trivas7]

If you guys are so smart where's your OS?
Here (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=linux_and_unix&articleId=9133570&taxonomyId=122&intsrc=kc_feat).

[RGacky3]

Call centre workers for example would fall into the white collar category by the above logic of blue=muscle and white=mind, but they're nowhere near on a par with big CEO's or equivalent.

I always thought the collar categories only really applied to wage workers.


Those that work by sweat and those that work by investment.

Working by investment is'nt working. Its having others work for you.


And Bill made it magic. He wins.

The same way the Kings old old won the wars right?

[Lynx]

Blue collar tends to be associated with the trades or manual labour, and white collar with professional, managerial or clerical work.
Professionals tend to view themselves as 'above' ordinary workers and even skilled workers. This may be due to perceived differences in education, income and status.
Workers of the world, one class, yet divided :(

[mel]

Yea, yea, yea, His idea. His plan. Give me a break--it's Bill. :rolleyes: He made it work.

And Bill made it magic. He wins.

I'n no general fan of Bill Gates--but he made the computer work for the world. If you guys are so smart where's your OS?

Bill didn't make an OS. MS-DOS was bought, and Windows wasn't even Bill's idea. Microsoft borrowed more than a few ideas from the people at Xerox PARC, and at Apple who was about to release the Lisa. Microsoft and IBM were working together on OS/2 when MS shafted IBM, left them with it, and used a ton of IBM's code to put out Windows, which for decades has been a technologically inferior solution to most of the other systems out there, peddled to the consumer with anti-competitive monopolistic business practices, like giving the OS away along with a promise that nobody will put any other operating system on their machines, locking them into contracts, then abusing its monopoly position to horn its way into other markets. Recently, Windows has gotten a little better. XP is a solid operating system, but Bill hasn't had any significant influence on technical design or implementation of Windows for ages, if he ever really did at all.

I might not have coded my own OS yet, but neither has Bill Gates