EU Parliament elections

[Wanted Man]

I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread about this, as the results will probably come trickling in over the next few days. The Dutch result was the first (the EU are pretty pissed off that the Netherlands published the results earlier than allowed), and also potentially one of the worst: the far right won 4 out of 25 seats.


Fringe Gains Four EU Seats In Dutch Vote

By JOHN W. MILLER

Dutch voters gave a populist, anti-immigrant party its first four seats ever in the European Parliament, sending a warning to incumbent European governments, according to exit polls.

The triumph for the Party for Freedom and its leader Geert Wilders kicked off four days of European Union-wide elections involving more than 12,000 candidates competing for more than 730 seats.

Mr. Wilders's party was expected to win four of the 25 seats allocated to the Netherlands, according to exit polls by Dutch news agency ANP.

EU leaders fear nationalist parties are gaining ground by exploiting anxieties over job losses brought on by the financial crisis. Nationalist fringe parties are expected to pick up seats in the U.K., France, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Austria and Belgium. Other groups fear they could form a disruptive alliance. Still, such parties are unlikely to tip the balance of power in Brussels.

U.K. voters also went to the polls Thursday to elect European and local representatives, but full results weren't immediately available. The Czech Republic and Ireland vote Friday, and the rest of the 27-nation bloc goes to the polls this weekend.

The European Parliament has little power, and turnout is expected to be low. But mainstream politicians and analysts have cast these elections -- the first since the onset of the recession -- as a political bellwether.
[Geert Wilders] Party for Freedom leader, Geert Wilders. AP

No politician exemplifies establishment fears more than Mr. Wilders, a charismatic orator whose platinum-blond hair has been compared to Mozart's wig. He is a polarizing figure in European politics who has been banned from entering the U.K. under hate-speech laws. He travels with bodyguards and keeps where he sleeps a secret.

Mr. Wilders, 45 years old, has sat in the Dutch Parliament since 1998. In 2004, he left the conservative People's Party over a dispute about whether Turkey should be allowed to join the EU. (It isn't a member but has applied to join.) He founded the Party for Freedom and discovered a knack for tapping into Dutch xenophobia.

The Netherlands has 800,000 Muslims, mostly Turks and Moroccans, in a population of 17 million. Mr. Wilders has progressively ramped up his anti-Islamic rhetoric, calling the Koran a "fascist book" and making a movie depicting Islam as inherently violent. The British government cited the movie, "Fitna," as grounds to ban Mr. Wilders from visiting the U.K. earlier this year.

Mr. Wilders added a strong anti-EU plank to his platform during a 2005 Dutch referendum on a new EU constitution. He helped defeat the measure, effectively scuttling the project.

His party, known by its Dutch acronym, the PVV, won nine of 150 seats in parliament in the 2006 national elections. Polls now show that roughly one-fifth of Dutch voters support Mr. Wilders, making the PVV the most popular political group in the country and its leader a long-shot candidate for prime minister. The next general election, however, isn't until 2011.

Mr. Wilders favors a style straight from the populist playbook. "He's like Ross Perot or George W. Bush in his ability to connect to ordinary people," says Catherine de Vries, an assistant professor of political science at the University of Amsterdam.

The party's platform in this election promises to fight crime, deport illegal immigrants and dilute the power of EU institutions in Brussels.

"He's been successful in taping into real fears about the economy and foreigners taking away jobs," says Emine Bozkurt, a Dutch member of the European Parliament who is of Turkish origin.

Mr. Wilders is running but says he won't take a seat in the European Parliament, which sits in Brussels and Strasbourg. He prefers to focus on building a coalition in national politics, says an aide. A deputy, Barry Madlener, will lead the party's parliament delegation.

Write to John W. Miller at [email protected]
Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page A6

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[Wanted Man]

Another article from Radio Netherlands:



In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders' far right Freedom Party (PVV) appears to be the biggest winner of the European Union elections.

Late Thursday night, with almost 25% of the votes counted, the PVV was on course of gaining five seats in the European Parliament. It equalled Christian Democrats CDA, which lost two. The PvdA Labour party was set to lose four of its current seven seats.

The conservative VVD and liberal pro-European D66 both took 3 seats, with the VVD losing one seat and D66 winning two. Green Left and the Christian Union-SGP coalition remained steady at two seats each. The PvdD (Animals Rights Party) appeared to win its first parliamentary seat in Brussels.

There were 25 Dutch seats to be contested in the EU elections. Five years ago, the figure was 27. Turnout for the elections was 40 percent, a fraction higher than for the last EU elections five years ago.


If the forecasted results stand, then Dutch voters have given the Freedom Party a solid bloc, which may allow Mr Wilders to push ahead with anti-immigration initiatives. Mr Wilders is known for his anti-Islam stance and his outspoken critical view on Europe. His party has vowed to prevent Turkey from ever joining the European Union.

The PVV's share of the vote is around 15 percent - if similar results were replicated in national elections then Geert Wilders' party would be one of the biggest in the Netherlands. Analysts put the success in the European elections for Wilders down to his clear anti-European stand. In Rotterdam the PVV became the biggest party with 22 percent.


Citizens in the UK also went to the polls today, but those results will not be released until Sunday when most of the other 27 EU member states vote.
More than 375 million people are eligible to vote in the EU Parliamentary election, but opinion polls indicate high voter apathy and the turnout is predicted to be low.


http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-eu-elections-boost-geert-wilders

[Kwisatz Haderach]

No politician exemplifies establishment fears more than Mr. Wilders.
When a nationalist prick who doesn't even slightly attack the ruling class is seen by the establishment as more of a threat than the revolutionary left, we've got to be doing something wrong...

[Dimentio]

In Sweden, the surprise will most likely be the Pirate Party. In the latest survey, the had 8,2% which gives them 2 seats. They will accomplish nil there, but their success will be that people will start to rant about the Big Brother-esque surveillance laws made by the Swedish government. So I am happy that they are riding on a wave. Rather pirates than fascists!

[NecroCommie]

I hope the biggest fuss will be about voter activity. Finland has traditionally had under 50% of activity in EU elections. The more fuss will arise from this, the more people will question the legibility of the EU parliament.

[The Deepest Red]

In Ireland Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party (CWI, Ireland) looks like he might win the 3rd Dublin constituency seat, beating the ruling party's (Fianna Fáil) candidate. That's pretty impressive. I'm happy to say too that there are no ultra-right/fascist candidates within an ass's roar of getting elected, in the South at least.

[Yazman]

The results will show how much of an abject fucking failure our movement in general is. In Europe at least.

[Coggeh]

In Ireland Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party (CWI, Ireland) looks like he might win the 3rd Dublin constituency seat, beating the ruling party's (Fianna Fáil) candidate. That's pretty impressive. I'm happy to say too that there are no ultra-right/fascist candidates within an ass's roar of getting elected, in the South at least.
Aye.

Joe has a good shout in with getting that seat , though if Dublin was still a 4-seater and not a 3 seater there would be no doubt about it really.Heres hoping he gets the transfers from centre left candidates who have lost out , won't know till about 9 or 10

[The Deepest Red]

Aye.

Joe has a good shout in with getting that seat , though if Dublin was still a 4-seater and not a 3 seater there would be no doubt about it really.Heres hoping he gets the transfers from centre left candidates who have lost out , won't know till about 9 or 10

It seems like it's between him and FF's Eoin Ryan now. Transfers should get him over the line. :D

[piet11111]

what i find deeply concerning is that the socialist party (they are not as revolutionary as they sound) voters managed to jump ship to the pvv the wilders party so easily.

but despite that they still kept their 2 seats so all in all nothing changed for them.

[Wanted Man]

what i find deeply concerning is that the socialist party (they are not as revolutionary as they sound) voters managed to jump ship to the pvv the wilders party so easily.

but despite that they still kept their 2 seats so all in all nothing changed for them.
Yeah, the SP hype is as good as over. Unfortunately, they have always been reformist and had some nationalist tendencies. This dates way back to their document "Gastarbeid en kapitaal" (guest labour and capital), in which they denounce immigration from a "left" perspective by suggesting that foreigners undermine the emancipation struggle of the Dutch workers.

The document later included an addendum by the famous ex-communist writer Theun de Vries, who refers to Islam as "a religion of nomads and desert robbers" and to its followers as "a Fremdkörper in our society". "Fremdkörper" is the term that Joseph Goebbels originally used for the Jews in Germany... And this was being regurgitated by a former communist who had been imprisoned in a nazi camp!

In 1994, the SP reiterated their commitment to this policy by calling for a stop to the "train loads of profiteers" being allowed into the country, because "you have to prevent that the extreme right will make use of their presence". In 2003, SP leader Marijnissen supported the idea of deporting illegal aliens, as long as it happened in a "humane" manner. In 2006, the SP started a hot line where people could snitch on illegal Polish workers, and their leaders wrote a few articles which conjured up an image of thousands of Poles coming in to "take our jobs".

The SP started as a heavily intel-infiltrated maoist splinter, but since the 1980s, they've always had a knack for the basest populist and nationalist rhetoric, cynically tailing an imaginary Archie Bunker-type "white working class". Even their arguments against the EU have been vague and populist: "61% of the people want less Brussels"...

The SP will only go down further, now that their charismatic leader Marijnissen has retired from leadership. His successors are a pathetic bunch, while their local branches are falling apart, and the national leadership tries to stifle any internal dissent.

Sorry about the rant, but this had to be said. To me, it's absolutely no surprise that SP voters have found it easy enough to switch to the extreme right, now that it has a bigger hype.

[Dimentio]

The elections seem to have been a disaster for the social democratic parties, and a success for right-wingers. I wonder what it is that makes Europe today so very right-wing.

[Q]

The elections seem to have been a disaster for the social democratic parties, and a success for right-wingers. I wonder what it is that makes Europe today so very right-wing.
It is more the total failure and betrayal of the social-democracy in this crisis towards working people, that gave the right the upper hand. Mind also that in the Netherlands at least only 36% voted at all, the vast majority didn't bother.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

The Left group in the European Parliament seems to have neither gained nor lost much. The Greens gained a lot, the right-wing gained a lot, and the liberals and social democrats lost a lot.

Overall, a resounding victory for the status quo. In the middle of the greatest economic depression since 1929. What. The. Fuck.


The elections seem to have been a disaster for the social democratic parties, and a success for right-wingers. I wonder what it is that makes Europe today so very right-wing.
The turnout was pitifully low, however. The lowest ever, in fact. So it would be more accurate to ask: Why is it that right-wing people are driven to vote in far greater numbers than left-wing people?

[Dimentio]

The Left group in the European Parliament seems to have neither gained nor lost much. The Greens gained a lot, the right-wing gained a lot, and the liberals and social democrats lost a lot.

Overall, a resounding victory for the status quo. In the middle of the greatest economic depression since 1929. What. The. Fuck.


The turnout was pitifully low, however. The lowest ever, in fact. So it would be more accurate to ask: Why is it that right-wing people are driven to vote in far greater numbers than left-wing people?

I think the main reason is that left-wing people do not like the European Union so very much. At least in Sweden, that pattern is visible. They protest by staying home instead.

[Q]

The turnout was pitifully low, however. The lowest ever, in fact. So it would be more accurate to ask: Why is it that right-wing people are driven to vote in far greater numbers than left-wing people?
In the Netherlands we had both the SP and the PVV contest on nationalist slogans. Where the SP campaigned on a "soft" nationalist campaign and remained vague on many issue regarding Europe, the PVV was much sharper in its nationalism. Clearity often wins from vagueness.

What lacked in these elections was a credible socialist perspective, a clear class analysis that the bosses are our main enemy in this crisis, not the migrant workers.

[Wanted Man]

Overall, a resounding victory for the status quo. In the middle of the greatest economic depression since 1929. What. The. Fuck.
Well, it's something I've also wondered about recently. It seems to me that the far left has been too naive. We correctly analysed that crises are inherent to capitalism, but other than that... Far too often have we heard sentiments like: "And when that crisis comes, the working class will become class conscious and come flocking to us".

Of course, the contrary has proved to be the case... Even in countries where masses of workers are still a political force that can mobilise at the slightest sign, the conservative establishment has still remained in the saddle. Nevermind the majority of other countries...

[Wanted Man]

What lacked in these elections was a credible socialist perspective, a clear class analysis that the bosses are our main enemy in this crisis, not the migrant workers.
The clear class analysis has been made by the lot of us for ages, but the credible perspective? Not so much.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I think the main reason is that left-wing people do not like the European Union so very much. At least in Sweden, that pattern is visible. They protest by staying home instead.
And the result is that the EU is growing increasingly right-wing...

And we don't even yet know the outcomes for the UK and Italy, two of the three big countries where mainstream right-wing parties are strongest at the moment (the third being Poland). This is going to be a rout for the social democrats.

[Q]

The clear class analysis has been made by the lot of us for ages, but the credible perspective? Not so much.
Who's "us"? I haven't heard such analysis before the crisis actually happened from the party leadership of the SP... And still the party only reluctinly acknowledges the existance of the working class, due to increasing pressure from its membership. Yet this is the party the activists are looking to.

[Dimentio]

And the result is that the EU is growing increasingly right-wing...

And we don't even yet know the outcomes for the UK and Italy, two of the three big countries where mainstream right-wing parties are strongest at the moment (the third being Poland). This is going to be a rout for the social democrats.

Yes, but most people do not know so much about the EU. A quarter of the Swedes did not even know when the election was supposed to be happening.

I think the best method to increase turnout is to put the national elections in the same time.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The PEL lost 9 seats. :(

Since it was pretty obvious that the much larger "Socialist" party wasn't going to form government, why did the NPA run separately from the Left group in France? Once again, Lothar Bisky and Oskar Lafontaine carry the brunt of the European left's work. :(

[Yazman]

The Left group in the European Parliament seems to have neither gained nor lost much. The Greens gained a lot, the right-wing gained a lot, and the liberals and social democrats lost a lot.

Overall, a resounding victory for the status quo. In the middle of the greatest economic depression since 1929. What. The. Fuck.


The turnout was pitifully low, however. The lowest ever, in fact. So it would be more accurate to ask: Why is it that right-wing people are driven to vote in far greater numbers than left-wing people?

Because a lot of us realise the system is a motherfucking failure and participating in fake elections doesn't help us.

[Random Precision]

Since it was pretty obvious that the much larger "Socialist" party wasn't going to form government, why did the NPA run separately from the Left group in France?

The other Left group favors cooperation with the "left wing" of the PS. But sure, I guess the NPA could have abandoned all their principles to form a coalition for an election that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

[Q]

The Irish Socialist Party definately got the seat! (http://www.rte.ie/news/elections/european/dublin.html) :cool:

[Dimentio]

Because a lot of us realise the system is a motherfucking failure and participating in fake elections doesn't help us.

Parliamentarism sucks, I am in agreement there. But it is not so that decisions made in the parliament - even a powerless one like the European parliament - have no meaning for us. The parliament could veto the commission and the council.

[The Deepest Red]

The Irish Socialist Party definately got the seat! (http://www.rte.ie/news/elections/european/dublin.html) :cool:

Incredible result. Fairplay to Joe! :D

How did CWI candidates in other countries get on?

[LeninBalls]

Even though I'm a Marxist-Leninist, and I was once offered to join the Socialist Party and declined, I'm somewhat happy they won a seat.

[PeaderO'Donnell]

Even though I'm a Marxist-Leninist, and I was once offered to join the Socialist Party and declined, I'm somewhat happy they won a seat.

Im not a fan of Trotskyism either but like Tony Gregory Joe Higgins did honestly represent working class interests within the system. All the other parties even Sinn Fein put business interests first.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

The PEL lost 9 seats. :(
To be more exact, the PEL actually gained seats or retained its previous seat number in every country, with the exception of the Czech Republic and Sweden, where it lost 1 seat, and Italy, where it lost everything. The PEL would have done well, and clearly better than last time, if not for the total disaster in Italy.


Because a lot of us realise the system is a motherfucking failure and participating in fake elections doesn't help us.
Sure it does. It helps us psychologically. Notice how disappointed and depressed everyone is because the left lost these elections. Had we won, our morale would be much higher. Do not underestimate the importance of morale.

Of course elections results don't actually matter. But it feels good when you win, anyway.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ The class-collaborationist Rifondazione project is still in the doldrums. :lol:



Since it was pretty obvious that the much larger "Socialist" party wasn't going to form government, why did the NPA run separately from the Left group in France?The other Left group favors cooperation with the "left wing" of the PS. But sure, I guess the NPA could have abandoned all their principles to form a coalition for an election that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

I was referring to the EU elections, not some hypothetical French election where your point would be absolutely valid. The "Socialists" I was referring to was the official EU equivalent (you know, the biggest losers in yesterday's elections), not the PS. After all, Lenin wanted a coalition with the liberals of his day, a no-no for Kautsky and practically everybody else in the Second International.

In the context of the EU elections, the NPA partisans were, just like the USPD breakaways who formed the KPD, the sectarians.

[Q]

I wrote this analysis on the European elections from a Dutch perspective. I thought I'd share it with you.


SP suffers huge defeat, what is the way forward?


For Graham Watson, leader of the liberal bloc in the European parliament the message of the voters in European elections was clear: “People do not want to return to socialism, that is the reason why the majority will be center-right”. But is that true? We look back at the European elections. What went wrong for the left, why did the SP in the Netherlands lose so hard?

The major newspapers are celebrating. The Trouw headlines “Europe looks at the right for refuge” and says “Europe choses for the right in times of economic crisis. Whether they are part of the government or in opposition, the Social Democratic parties suffer a thundering defeat in the elections for the Europarlement”. The NRC Handelsblad adds: “What crisis of capitalism? After the Netherlands, which voted on Thursday, today most other countries of the European Union held European Parliament elections. What was found? Voters voted mostly for (center-) right-wing parties. The parties who in recent years in Europe have opted for more market”. The NRC Next succinctly summarized the front page with the headline “Europe remains right”.

For the ruling clique, this is good news as Europe will remain business as usual for the next 5 years, without even having to care about any kind of opposition. Even the Social Democrats, who in the past conceded some symbolic concessions, can now safely be ignored since the Christian Democrats and Liberals together with 348 seats nearly have an absolute majority. For the last 21 seats surely they can count on PvdA, SPD or Labour people to guarantee neoliberal policies are carried out.

Social Democracy

The decay of the Social Democrats was almost universal. In the Netherlands, the PvdA halved from 23.6% to 12.1% of the votes. Labour in the United Kingdom from 21.9% to 15.3%, Spanish PSOE went from 43.5% to 38.5%, the PS in France from 29% to 17% and the German SPD from the already low 21.5% to 20.8%.

This downward spiral reflects the bankruptcy of the Social Democrats as mass workers' parties. Since the 1980's these parties, including the PvdA, made a move to the right and embraced neoliberal logic. As a result, they were completely abandoned by workers. In 1980, the PvdA had 112,929 members, now there are only 56,507 and this is dropping at a rate of 3000 a year. The rescue of the capitalists in this crisis with hundreds of billions of euros of taxpayers' money, so the crisis will be paid by the working class, bites them in their tail this time.

With the absence of a credible left alternative in many countries, the extreme right did shockingly good. In Austria, three right-wing parties together account for over 35 percent of the votes: the BZÖ of the late Jörg Haider, its former FPÖ party and a list of ex-journalist Hans-Peter Martin. In Denmark, the far right Danish People's Party, according to a forecast got over sixteen percent of the votes. In the new (2005) memberstate of Hungary the extreme-right party Jubbik won three seats. Finland saw something similar. The anti-immigration party 'True Finns' got 10 percent of the votes. In Flanders there is a new party that also wants less Europe, the List Dedecker, founded by former judo coach Jean-Marie Dedecker and has 1 seat.

And then of course we have the PVV in the Netherlands. With no less than 17% of the votes the party of Wilders did well in collecting votes against the anti-social policies of the ruling coalition. But wait a minute. Didn't we a left alternative to the Labour Party in the Netherlands? What happened to the SP?

SP


The Socialist Party, a formerly Maoist party, has developed itself into populist left party with an activist basis over the past few decades. It has around 50 000 member and is the third party in the Netherlands both in MP's and in members behind the Christian Democrats (CDA) and the Social Democrats (PvdA). Ever since they got into national parliament in 1994 it always had an election victory. And the party claims that it is “back on the list of winners” again, in the words of campaignleader Dennis de Jong: “You have winners and losers and we are yet again on the winners list. Unfortunately, only 4 out of 10 people voted.” But is this correct? The SP has 7.1% of the votes, this is only a 0.1% increase over 2004. In addition, in the 2006 Lower House elections the party had won 16.6% of votes. Translated to the Lower House today the score would only mean 11 seats, 14 less than what the party has now! This corresponds to the polls that put the party consistently at least 10 seats lower then it is now. It is, therefore, inappropriate to speak about "being a winner".

After the referendum in 2005, where the No-campaign led by the SP became the big winner, the party leadership concluded that we all want “less Brussels”. “The established parties CDA, PvdA and VVD are punished for their pro-European course of recent years” said MP chairman Agnes Kant and “Since the Constitution campaign in 2005, the parties quickly turned euro-critical. So far only in words. We will keep them to their promises”. So, the SP waged a nationalist campaign. There was no alternative put forward to that “big, bad Brussels” beyond the idea that we in the Netherlands can do things so much better and more social on ourselves.

Nationalism

Is that so? Of course not, but nationalism is deeply rooted in the thinking of the party leadership. In the campaign to prevent an energy company to be sold, one of the arguments raised was that we should not sell it to the Germans. Are the Dutch managers so much better then? Certainly not. Actually, earlier, the SP (quite rightly) campaigned against the exorbitant wage of 800 000 euros for the director of the company. But during the “They're NUTS!” campaign they just claimed that the energy company is a public company and it should remain that way. In short, no-class alternative to the benefit of workers, young and poor was stated, but instead a defense of the current state of things, ie of the energy company as a company with shareholders with a profit incentive and where we are paying the energy bill for.

There are other themes where the SP choose for native Dutch people, instead of workers irrespective of their origin. In 2005 the party started a website where “competition from Polish workers” could be reported by people who had lost their jobs as migrant workers worked on lower wages than the Dutch. Not the parasitic capitalist was the problem, but the migrant worker. The party therefore defended to remain the borders closed until 2007, the latest possible date. Only later did the party leadership adopt the slogan of the trade unions: Equal pay for equal work!

The “less Brussels” campaign fits into this picture and is a logical continuation of the No-campaign in 2005. Then aswell there was no alternative put forward to the EU, but they were simply against. The campaignposter at the time was also pretty clear in its message: one in which the Netherlands did no longer exist.

This strategy has worked successfully for years, but now it failed and didn't have the desired result (a further electoral growth). This is entirely due to the fact that besides the “soft” nationalism of the SP is next to that of a clear right nationalist party, the PVV. These are only just not calling for “Dutch people first”, but it is very clear in its intentions.

The rise of the right in Europe and also in the Netherlands, creates many problems. Not only gives it right nationalist and racist ideas solid ground, but also gives the far-right scene much more confidence and courage. The neo-Nazi NVU increasingly marches in Dutch cities and it seems only a matter of time before they will win a serious amount of members. It is important to continue the fight against the far-right and to organize a massive mobilization against it.

Socialists are internationalists. We believe that workers, young, poor and minority groups in society have absolutely no interest in nationalism. The American fighter for the black civil rights movement, Malcolm X, over 40 years ago stated it correctly: “there can be no capitalism without racism”. Racism and nationalism are widely used tools of the ruling elite in divide-and-rule politics. Marx already stated in the Communist Manifesto that workers have no fatherland. Worldcapitalism unites the working class in common interests: we are all fighting against the same oppression and exploitation by a parasitic system!

That said, the European Union is a neo-liberal project. A collaboration of the ruling elites of different countries to exploit workers more efficiently. There are many examples of this. Migrant workers to work at a lower wage is one of them. Racism and nationalism is another example. Moreover, the bosses want us to pay for the crisis, and their lackeys in the European Parliament will be willing strawmen for that ...

As workers we need a clear alternative to the EU of the bosses. This we can build on the basis of internationalism, solidarity and a clear socialist alternative. Discussion on this matter is of vital importance. Lessons need to be learned. Let the starting point of this discussion be a European federation of socialist states!

[POUM]

I am an opponent of representative democracy but seeing how the extreme right is promoting itself through elections gave me an idea that even the extreme left, anarchists included should participate!

Why not use liberal democracy to end liberal democracy?

The left-wing voters ARE DISORIENTED

The extreme left exists only in the streets. We need a political agenda. Until thene the left wing base will either vote for spineless procapitalist social-democrats or stay passive,since they cant identify themselves with a movement that exists only in protests and demonstrations (not all leftwingers are 20+ and ready to throw a molotov,eh?)

[Q]

I am an opponent of representative democracy but seeing how the extreme right is promoting itself through elections gave me an idea that even the extreme left, anarchists included should participate!

Why not use liberal democracy to end liberal democracy?

The left-wing voters ARE DISORIENTED

The extreme left exists only in the streets. We need a political agenda. Until thene the left wing base will either vote for spineless procapitalist social-democrats or stay passive,since they cant identify themselves with a movement that exists only in protests and demonstrations (not all leftwingers are 20+ and ready to throw a molotov,eh?)
Scroll a bit up, Joe Higgens got elected which is on the radical left at least (although not of the molotov throwing and McDonalds smashing kind).

I'm glad you're recognising the potential elections give us, they are a great stage for us to tell our message.

[ls]

I am an opponent of representative democracy but seeing how the extreme right is promoting itself through elections gave me an idea that even the extreme left, anarchists included should participate!

Ouch here we go.


Why not use liberal democracy to end liberal democracy?

Because it's a dead end.


The left-wing voters ARE DISORIENTED

Reading that disorientated me just a bit.


The extreme left exists only in the streets.

Not enough, if we did exist in the streets more-so, our message would be out there a lot more and people would be taking more interest and getting in.


We need a political agenda. Until thene the left wing base will either vote for spineless procapitalist social-democrats or stay passive,since they cant identify themselves with a movement that exists only in protests and demonstrations (not all leftwingers are 20+ and ready to throw a molotov,eh?)

No2eu was IMO a positive step, although if it made its base harder existing in the streets giving people a good impression and educating them to an extent, then that would be brilliant, preferably they will build up a much bigger base and eventually move away from electoralism altogether (I doubt it's going to be come some stalinist 'mini-dictatorship').

[pastradamus]

Yeah, the SP hype is as good as over. Unfortunately, they have always been reformist and had some nationalist tendencies. This dates way back to their document "Gastarbeid en kapitaal" (guest labour and capital), in which they denounce immigration from a "left" perspective by suggesting that foreigners undermine the emancipation struggle of the Dutch workers.


Thats easy to say in relation to the SP in Holland. But over here in Ireland I can honestly say they show firm commitment to the working class. Defending Workers through Unions (we have quite a few of the SP members in the IWU) and some of their members here were thrown in jail for protesting against water and refuse charges issued by the government on workers. Its very short-sighted to simply look at the CWI without looking at each and every individual member.


[/QUOTE]

[POUM]

Scroll a bit up, Joe Higgens got elected which is on the radical left at least (although not of the molotov throwing and McDonalds smashing kind).

I'm glad you're recognising the potential elections give us, they are a great stage for us to tell our message.


That's nice, but not enough,as i'm sure you realise..the left has a chance at social change only when it can surprass the extreme right. Because fascism is always a good distraction from capitalism :(

ls, i consider myself more or less an anarhcist,and i am all for direct democracy, but who is to say that using the system to change it wouldnt work? and im not talking about controling the state to dismantle it if that's what you're implying,im only talking about gaining publicity,gaining momentum through electoral process and then
continuing the fight on a more basic level.

The far right doesnt treasure liberal democracy either, yet they use it, to gain power, and then to abolish it, (but unlike us to create dictatorship)

Im not saying we should call it The Anarchist Party. But it should be some sort of an universal party of the extreme left, for people of pro-anarchist and pro-communists(the non-authoritarian ones that is). It doesnt even have to have hierarchy(actually,it shouldnt,that's what would make it unique and appealing to the people), it should just be registered and do propaganda and participate.

[Wanted Man]

Thats easy to say in relation to the SP in Holland. But over here in Ireland I can honestly say they show firm commitment to the working class. Defending Workers through Unions (we have quite a few of the SP members in the IWU) and some of their members here were thrown in jail for protesting against water and refuse charges issued by the government on workers. Its very short-sighted to simply look at the CWI without looking at each and every individual member.
Umm, the SP in the Netherlands have nothing to do with the SP in Ireland. Read my post again, and it should be abundantly clear. Like I said, they started out as a maoist splinter which was heavily linked to the intelligence services, and later became devoted to reformism and nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialistische_partij

[pastradamus]

Umm, the SP in the Netherlands have nothing to do with the SP in Ireland. Read my post again, and it should be abundantly clear. Like I said, they started out as a maoist splinter which was heavily linked to the intelligence services, and later became devoted to reformism and nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialistische_partij

Yes, but we were on the issue of Joe higgins in Ireland's SP getting a euro seat when this issue was raised.

[Wanted Man]

Yes, but we were on the issue of Joe higgins in Ireland's SP getting a euro seat when this issue was raised.
Then why did you quote my post? When "this issue was raised", we weren't talking about Higgins. I was responding to piet111, who was also clearly talking about the Dutch SP.

And you referred to the SP in Holland as "they" and then went on about how "they" have good policies in Ireland, and that it would be "short-sighted" to judge the whole CWI according to what the Dutch SP does.

Of course, the point is moot, because the Dutch SP is not a member of the CWI, and never has been linked to them in any way whatsoever. The CWI section here is called "Offensief", and they just got booted out of the SP for trying to "infiltrate" them and forming a "party within a party".

I think you just honestly confused the parties with each other, or quoted the wrong post or something like that. No worries about it. :) I just want to clear up any confusion, so that people don't wrongly attribute certain political positions to the wrong parties. I agree that the Irish SP's victory is encouraging. :)

[Pogue]

How did your party do in the Netherlands This Charming Man? In fact, did any serious leftists do well?

[Wanted Man]

Didn't participate. The SP was the left-most choice.

[L.J.Solidarity]

Incredible result. Fairplay to Joe! :D

How did CWI candidates in other countries get on?

In Germany SAV took part in a council election in Rostock, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Our comrades defended their single seat, but we had hoped to gain another and our vote share dropped from 2.x to 1.6%, while the fascist NPD entered the council with 3.3% and 2 seats.

However quite notably German extreme-right scum fared extremely badly in the EU elections and accomplished nothing spectacular in the municipalities. The DVU, which seemed to be in its death throes not long ago but is attempting to re-define itself as "The new right" in order to attract younger neo-nazis, only got 0.4%, which isn't even enough to qualify for state support payments, despite still being supported by the much more active NPD (on paper at least). The openly racist and far-right Republicans (REP) also dropped from 1.9 to 1.3%. Given the average age of their members and voters, the trend might have to do with the three new pensioner's parties that were founded recently and took part in the election.;)

[Stark]

Most people clearly do not care about the European election as shown by the record-low turnout.

Nor do I understand these claims of a strong support for the right-wing. The right-wing made gains largely because of the abstention among supporters of the "center-left" bourgeois parties. Note that progressive forces such as Germany's Left Party, Holland's Socialists, Czechia's Communists have largely held on to their seats. Even in France, the National Front lost most of its seats in the election.