Did Marx dislike jews?

[GiantBear91]

I just read about "On The Jewish Question" and Some people have said that it is anti-semetic... what are your thoughts?
I don't want to be called a nazi or an anti-semitist just because I read Marx's works...

[Verix]

i think his thoughts of the jews at the time may have been more of a social trend, Mikhail Bakunin once said "…one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion…[Jews have] that mercantile passion which constitutes one of the principle traits of their national character" many other anarchists aswell as radical socialists thought the the same thing im not condoning it but its like can you really blame the average american in the 1920s for looking down on blacks? and dont worry about being called a nazi most people dont know about "On The Jewish Question"unless there marxists themselves
also there have been many many jewish communists
Karl Marx
Leon Trotsky
Rosa luxemburg
Emma Goldman (was kind of a communist)
thats only the major ones i could think off the top of my head

[ZeroNowhere]

'On the Jewish Question' was actually anti-anti-Semitism, though he does play around with the 'economic-Jew' stereotype in order to attack capitalism. McLellan put it as such, "Judentum, the German word for Judaism, had the derivative meaning of “commerce”, and it is this meaning which is uppermost in Marx’s mind throughout the article. “Judaism” has very little religious, and still less racial, content for Marx and it would be little exaggeration to say that this latter part of Marx’s review [Part II of On the Jewish Question] is an extended pun at Bauer’s expense." And yeah, Marx was a Jew.

[scarletghoul]

There is even a possibility that Liu Shaoqi was jewish.

>_>

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I don't care if Marx disliked Jews. From a historical perspective, it is unlikely. Basically, he was Jewish. Secondly, the Jewish influence over the economy stereotype, though somewhat grounded, is being used as a generalization.

Human language works based on generalizations. That isn't Marx's fault.

[Il Medico]

Marx was an ex-Jew. He was an atheist, and if he held anything against Jews, it is their religious beliefs, not their race. Also, I doubt you'll be called a Nazi. Hitler believed that communism was a vast Jewish conspiracy (because Marx was a Jew).

[Guerrilla22]

No Marx was not anti-semitic, people often misinterpret on the Jewish question. His point was to point out the uselessness of attempts at individaul liberation, or identity politics and to show that worker's liberation that encompassed all workers regardless of ethnicity, religion, national origin ect. was the best viable option.

[GiantBear91]

Ah ok then, Thank you all.

[Agrippa]

As said before, Marx was very Jewish. In fact, his skin was so dark, his nickname was "the Moor". Any anti-Jewish commentary in On the Jewish Question is written by a Jew about certain problems within his own culture and his own community and is thus mostly kosher.

and a Jewish atheist is not an "ex-Jew" because Jews are an ethnic group...

[Red_Storm]

In what we can see in the Jewish question, marxs belives that the jews are personification of capitalism, thus they cannot be a revolutionary element. I belive he was even ashamed of his jewish ancestry. ,,What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the self emancipation of our age,,. The greatest irony lies in the fact that Marx even influenced some nazi prominent ideologists in germany,and even the arab movements were touched by marxs perception on the jews.According to Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom application of the term antisemitism to Marx is an anachronism because when Marx wrote On the Jewish Question, virtually all major philosophers expressed antisemitic tendencies, but the word "antisemitism" had not yet been coined, let alone developed a racial component, and little awareness existed of the depths of European prejudice against Jews. It was a normal thing to be antisemitic in those days, Even Prudhon, the first self proclaimed anarchist belived that jews were the embodiment of capitalist machinery. Even today, it is a fact that on the top of the hierarchy in many corporations , there are jews. Even leonard cohen, one of the greatest artists in our time, belives that the jews have somekind of ,,different,, nature. Sorry lads, i went offtopic in some claims. Salud

[Dimentio]

I just read about "On The Jewish Question" and Some people have said that it is anti-semetic... what are your thoughts?
I don't want to be called a nazi or an anti-semitist just because I read Marx's works...

Racism and racial stereotypes then (and sadly enough today) were quite vibrant at the 19th century. Nearly every 18th and 19th century thinker could be accused for racism according to the standards of today.

I don't think Marx hated Jews, even though there is evidence that the young Marx disliked Russians and other Slavic peoples.

[Red_Storm]

Racism and racial stereotypes then (and sadly enough today) were quite vibrant at the 19th century. Nearly every 18th and 19th century thinker could be accused for racism according to the standards of today.

I don't think Marx hated Jews, even though there is evidence that the young Marx disliked Russians and other Slavic peoples.
I belive the dislake towards the slavs is not to be subscribed to Marx, but to Engels. Engels was a hardcore case of slavophobia, so as a close coworker of Karl Marx, he influenced his opinion on that question.

[Agrippa]

Y'know, I don't think Marx was an anti-Semite and he was only a Slavophobe in his younger years, but the "racist attitudes were common in the 19th century" or "a sophisticated understanding of anti-Semitism hadn't developed yet" argument is really week. Racist attitudes are common today. Does that exempt anyone from their personal responsibility? I'm sure the Jews had a sophisticated understanding of anti-Semitism even if the Goyim didn't.

EDIT: However, it is fair to say that while our current society is just as racist, it's also more "politically correct", (ie: we keep the racism bottled up and behind closed doors) a fact that applies both to racists and anti-racists of these two different timeperiods. Hence why Jewish Question may strike the contemporary reader as being anti-Semitic, because Marx, like eveyone else in the 19th century, was not inhibited by politically correct mores. He knew he wasn't being anti-Semitic by pointing out the majority of his people were aspiring to be petit-bourgeois sell-outs, any more-so than a modern-day black critic is being "racist" towards blacks by pointing out specific problems within black society.

[Red_Storm]

Y'know, I don't think Marx was an anti-Semite and he was only a Slavophobe in his younger years, but the "racist attitudes were common in the 19th century" or "a sophisticated understanding of anti-Semitism hadn't developed yet" argument is really week. Racist attitudes are common today. Does that exempt anyone from their personal responsibility? I'm sure the Jews had a sophisticated understanding of anti-Semitism even if the Goyim didn't.

EDIT: However, it is fair to say that while our current society is just as racist, it's also more "politically correct", (ie: we keep the racism bottled up and behind closed doors) a fact that applies both to racists and anti-racists of these two different timeperiods. Hence why Jewish Question may strike the contemporary reader as being anti-Semitic, because Marx, like eveyone else in the 19th century, was not inhibited by politically correct mores. He knew he wasn't being anti-Semitic by pointing out the majority of his people were aspiring to be petit-bourgeois sell-outs, any more-so than a modern-day black critic is being "racist" towards blacks by pointing out specific problems within black society.
I completely agree with you that pointing some problems that can be found in a given social strata or ethncity is not a racism or chauvinism. I can say for my people for example ( macedonians) that their class counciousness is on avery low level. My comparation on the subject is not compatible, but the aim is that i want to imply that our working class is not able to organize itself and even is rejecting leftist ideas. If i say this in public, i would be reffered as an ,, agent provocatur,, communist saboteur of the national emancipation, and a triggerer of dissent who is splitting its people. So for the workers in my country, whos interests i am suposed to represent, i am antipatriot, and a backstabber. So there is a discrimination toward the far leftists in my country, and we are looked upon as an ,,regressive political element stuck in the mentality of SFRJ,,. I lost the topic here, but my aim was to demonstrate that anticomunism is actually very close to antisemitism in its methodology ( mass media usage, propaganda, brainwahing of the workers, representing marxsist ideas as an outdated philosophy etc etc)

[mikelepore]

There's nothing wrong with criticizing the behaviors of the members of various religions or nationalities as long as its clear that one is criticizing learned behaviors. To oppose Jews is anti-Semitism only when it's a generalization about who they are as human beings, for example, the false idea that Jews are a "race." But I see no bigotry in criticizing cultural aspects that, if they did exist, would be learned. An example of such a learned tendency might be the habits of magical thinking among Catholics (the protective powers of saint picture cards and car dashboard ornaments and bottles of holy water). The comments in "On the Jewish Question" are also about behaviors which, if they were real behaviors, would be learned and not intrinsic to any human beings.

This isn't to imply that Marx was serious about saying that god of Jews is money. Readers who know whole context will realize that Marx was describing what he believed that Bruno Bauer thought, not what Marx himself thought. But Marx didn't indicate his intent carefully enough, as there are passages which lack the disclaimers of the sort "Furthermore, Bauer also believes that ...." A scholar will know that Marx was describing the thinking of someone else, but a speed-reader might not realize it. In the modern age of "gotcha journalism", in which a person might be discredited for life, and a career ruined, due to having used the word "niggardly" (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nig1.htm), it's unfortunate that Marx didn't express himself more clearly.

[Hit The North]

Human language works based on generalizations.

Human language can also be used to not make generalisations. I don't understand your point.

Re. the OP:

Other contributors to this thread have pointed to the historical standards of language use in Marx's time, infused with racial stereotypes. It is true that Marx and Engels carried these attitudes in their language use. It is not unknown to find the words 'yid' and 'nigger' in some of their correspondence - particularly when they wanted to denigrate an enemy. They were products of their time. If they were otherwise it would disprove their own fundamental understanding of history!

Still other contributors to this thread have pointed to the often satirical use of language in Marx's writing and this must also be taken on board when interpreting the meanings behind his words.

The clincher, though, which disproves Marx's alleged anti-Semitism, is that On the Jewish Question is a defence of Jews. It is a reply to an article written by Bruno Bauer which argued that Jews should only be given full civic rights if they convert to Christianity. Actually, what Marx does in On the Jewish Question is to show how the stereotype of the secular Jew draws its energy from "the presence of a universal and contemporary anti-social element" (i.e. capitalism) and how, if Jews were identified with money-lending, it is the result of their exclusion from the social and political life of society - rather than some racial or religious essence, as Bauer seemed to believe.

On the Jewish Question is actually a very important document where Marx begins to elaborate on his materialistic ideas about the relation between religion, material conditions and the liberation of mankind.

[Agrippa]

It is not unknown to find the words 'yid' and 'nigger' in some of their correspondence - particularly when they wanted to denigrate an enemy.

I think you're referring to a letter Marx wrote to Engels on July 30th, 1862. He was not referring to an enemy, but to a friend of theirs, Ferdinand Lassalle, who was staying with Marx. In the English translation of the text, the phrase "Jewish nigger" is used, although, since my German is terrible I was unable to locate a copy of the original German letter on Google. It's likely the term Marx used had less harsh connotations than "nigger", which has a lot of baggage specific to British/Yankee colonialism in Africa, the Americas, Australia, etc.

Of Lassalle's characteristics that are "niggerish" in Marx's mind, is "importunity" - hardly an insult. It's obvious from the general tone of the letter that it's all spoken more with endearment than racist malice.

On the rest of your points I agree 100%

[Pogue]

I just read about "On The Jewish Question" and Some people have said that it is anti-semetic... what are your thoughts?
I don't want to be called a nazi or an anti-semitist just because I read Marx's works...

Seriously, what? You don't want to be called anti-semetic or Nazi for reading a book?

Firstly, who thinks of anyone being a Nazi or anti-semite for reading Marx?

Secondly, why would it matter anyway? You can read something without agreeing with all, or any of it.

[GiantBear91]

Seriously, what? You don't want to be called anti-semetic or Nazi for reading a book?

Firstly, who thinks of anyone being a Nazi or anti-semite for reading Marx?

Secondly, why would it matter anyway? You can read something without agreeing with all, or any of it.


I understand that it doesn't matter... In fact Im trying to study into the theroy more. Im just very anti-nazi and I don't want to be grouped in with those facists... It's not going to stop me from reading Marx' work though.

[Pogue]

I understand that it doesn't matter... In fact Im trying to study into the theroy more. Im just very anti-nazi and I don't want to be grouped in with those facists... It's not going to stop me from reading Marx' work though.

Once more, there is no way in which reading MARX would make you a Nazi.

[StalinFanboy]

I like you more and more HLVS.

[Pogue]

I like you more and more HLVS.

Lets just formalise this and shag.

The feeling is mutual chum.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

We have debated this many times; the best response to this claim can be found here:

http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article.htm

[cb9's_unity]

In all honesty I haven't read the document in question but I think I have a basic understanding of the issue being debated.

The problem with anti-semitism is the fact that it attacks people for something they can not change: their race. Marx was criticizing those who followed the religion Judaism (something that can be changed and is a conscious decision) not the Jewish race.

If it had been "On The Christian Question" or " On The Buddhist Question" no one would have a problem. If it were "On The Negro Question" then there would have been a problem, but it is clear simply from Marx's own race that he was attacking the Religious Jew and not the Jewish race.

[AntinoiteBolshevik]

I don't want to be called a nazi or an anti-semitist just because I read Marx's works...

Lol! That's funny. We're Communists or Left Wing Radicals here, Comrade, so no need to worry we'll call you a Nazi for reading Karl Marx! lol ;).

[GiantBear91]

Lol! That's funny. We're Communists or Left Wing Radicals here, Comrade, so no need to worry we'll call you a Nazi for reading Karl Marx! lol ;).

Haha That kind of made me feel like I was at home with family or something of that sort XD
But Thank you all for your help and thoughts on this subject :)

[Il Medico]

When I said ex-Jew, I meant it in the same way as ex-catholic. I was referring to his religion, not his race. Also, you do not have to be ethically Jewish to be a Jew (believer in Judaism).

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Once more, there is no way in which reading MARX would make you a Nazi.

Not only that, but also reading something doesn't mean you agree with it - so if one were to read Mein Kampf, for example, that doesn't automatically make one a Nazi.

There's a world of difference between entertaining an idea, and embracing it. People seem to forget this all too often.

[Dimentio]

I belive the dislake towards the slavs is not to be subscribed to Marx, but to Engels. Engels was a hardcore case of slavophobia, so as a close coworker of Karl Marx, he influenced his opinion on that question.

Yes, he was quite much a hardcore German unification supporter as well. But at his later age, Marx turned more sympathetic towards the Slavs.

[Sir Comradical]

The basic idea behind it was that ethnic/religious/cultural identity politics are counter-productive to the interests of the working class. He can get away with using the Jews as an example of this because he himself was a Jew.

[Dimentio]

The basic idea behind it was that ethnic/religious/cultural identity politics are counter-productive to the interests of the working class. He can get away with using the Jews as an example of this because he himself was a Jew.

Rather, he could get away it because he called Jews greedy. It was politically correct to think so in that era.

[Hit The North]

Rather, he could get away it because he called Jews greedy. It was politically correct to think so in that era.
"Getting away with it" in what sense?

What are you even talking about?

Have you even read the article?

[Dimentio]

"Getting away with it" in what sense?

What are you even talking about?

Have you even read the article?

Yes, I have read the "On the Jewish question" by Marx. It would be considered antisemitic hate speech today. At that period, it was simply every-day meat in its opinions of Jews as greedy misers. :(

[Hit The North]

So you read it but did not understand it.

[Dimentio]

So you read it but did not understand it.

I have understood that it was more an anti-capitalist pamphlet. I did not say that its purpose was antisemitic, but its language partially is.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dimentio:


I have understood that it was more an anti-capitalist pamphlet. I did not say that its purpose was antisemitic, but its language partially is.

Which langauge, specifically?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Which langauge, specifically?

I'm pretty sure he meant "language" in the sense of number 6 below:

Noun

Singular
language

Plural
countable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#countable) and uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#uncountable); plural languages (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/languages)

language (countable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#countable) and uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#uncountable); plural languages (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/languages))


(countable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#C)) A form of communication (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/communication) using words (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word) either spoken or gestured with the hands and structured with grammar (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grammar), often with a writing system (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/system). the English language sign language

1900, William Beckford, The History of the Caliph Vathek[1] (http://books.google.com/books?id=KnArAAAAMAAJ), page 50: "No language could express his rage and despair."


(uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#U)) The ability to communicate using words. the gift of language
(countable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#C) or uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#U)) Nonverbal communication. body language
(computing, countable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#C)) A computer language (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/computer_language).
(uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#U)) The vocabulary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vocabulary) and usage (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usage) used in a particular specialist (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/specialist) field. legal language
(uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#U)) The particular words used in speech or a passage of text. The language he used to talk to me was obscene.The language used in the law does not permit any other interpretation.
(uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#U)) Profanity (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/profanity).

1978, James Carroll, Mortal Friends[2] (http://books.google.com/books?id=Nbl6vw3uieoC), ISBN 0440157897 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0440157897), page 500: "Where the hell is Horace?" ¶"There he is. He's coming. You shouldn't use language."



I think we need to buy you a dictionary.

[ZeroNowhere]

I did not notice Rosa saying, "What is language?", and do not see how your response was relevant. It seems more along the lines of 'What language used in the work is anti-Semitic?" That is, what phrases and such reveal dislike for the 'Jewish race'?

[Dimentio]

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the self emancipation of our age"

I would claim that would be construed as antisemitism nowadays. But Marx was not an antisemite. He just lived during a period when racial stereotypes equaled what was politically correct. Anti-racism and the fight against racism is really a product of the 20th century. :)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I did not notice Rosa saying, "What is language?", and do not see how your response was relevant. It seems more along the lines of 'What language used in the work is anti-Semitic?" That is, what phrases and such reveal dislike for the 'Jewish race'?

If that's the case, then consider my previous statement retracted, as I misconstrued her statement.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dimentio (quoting Marx):


"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the self emancipation of our age"

As Draper points out, Marx is here attacking the economic stereotype of Jews, not Jews themselves.

http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article.htm


He just lived during a period when racial stereotypes equaled what was politically correct. Anti-racism and the fight against racism is really a product of the 20th century.

This is precisely what he was attacking.

[Dimentio]

Dimentio (quoting Marx):



As Draper points out, Marx is here attacking the economic stereotype of Jews, not Jews themselves.

http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article.htm



This is precisely what he was attacking.

I don't know if it was ironic or not since smileys did not exist in that time. I know Marx was'nt racist, but certainly, that text is ambiguous. But I take your word for it.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Noxion:


I'm pretty sure he meant "language" in the sense of number 6 below:

Thanks for that, but ZeroNowhere got the point.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dimentio:


I don't know if it was ironic or not since smileys did not exist in that time. I know Marx was'nt racist, but certainly, that text is ambiguous.

I did not use the word 'ironic', nor did I imply it. And I know you are not accusing Marx of racism.

But others do use this passage to do precisely that.

[Dimentio]

Dimentio:



I did not use the word 'ironic', nor did I imply it. And I know you are not accusing Marx of racism.

But others do use this passage to do precisely that.

I know that. But in the same time, its a sign of weakness to need to defend Marx in everything.

Even if Marx would have been an antisemite, marxism is not an antisemitic teaching. By example, marxists have shown to not be antisemitic. It is less important than you think to protect the purity of the idols. Actually, its a sign of being secure in oneself to admit that the idols simply were humans as well, and instead focus on the current issues and your ideology. That is what matters. :)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dimentio:


its a sign of weakness to need to defend Marx in everything

I think I am the last one to be accused of that; I give him a pretty hard time for even thinking he could learn something from Hegel.

[Dimentio]

Dimentio:



I think I am the last one to be accused of that; I give him a pretty hard time for even thinking he could learn something from Hegel.

Haha... I am in agreement that you are the last Marx-worshipper here. But I find it illucid that it is impossible to question even a fragment of Marx's thought and not be called "unmarxist" by someone. That is a sign of fear and opportunism, to my opinion.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Sure, and that is a point I myself have made.

But, here, I would defend him against the charge of using anti-semitic language.

[Dimentio]

Sure, and that is a point I myself have made.

But, here, I would defend him against the charge of using anti-semitic language.

Yes. But you should admit that could be interpreted as antisemitic by some people, and not only jerk-offs? :P

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Noxion:



Thanks for that, but ZeroNowhere got the point.

In that case, I apologise for getting on your case.

[ZeroNowhere]

I know that. But in the same time, its a sign of weakness to need to defend Marx in everything.Wait, what? I do not see how this is in any way relevant to the discussion, unless you're trying to imply that saying that Marx wasn't an anti-Semite is Marx-worship.


It is less important than you think to protect the purity of the idols.
Wanting historical accuracy is not equivalent to 'protecting the purity of idols'.

[Revy]

Against Judaism, yes.
Against Jews, no.

Marx was against religion.

[benhur]

"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, selfishness. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his secular god? Money. Well then, an emancipation from haggling and money, from practical, real Judaism would be the self emancipation of our age"

I would claim that would be construed as antisemitism nowadays.

Definitely! I don't see why people are bending over backwards to defend Marx. True he was one of the greatest men that ever lived, but that doesn't mean he was infallible. Nor does it mean he was devoid of hatred or anger. He was human, after all.

Marx certainly was anti-semitic, but he somehow felt it was justifiable. People who ask for proof, well, if the above quotes don't convince you, nothing will. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. If this isn't anti-semitic, I don't know what is. Replace the word Jew with Muslim or Black and let's see if you still feel there's no trace of racism in his statements.

[Dimentio]

Definitely! I don't see why people are bending over backwards to defend Marx. True he was one of the greatest men that ever lived, but that doesn't mean he was infallible. Nor does it mean he was devoid of hatred or anger. He was human, after all.

Marx certainly was anti-semitic, but he somehow felt it was justifiable. People who ask for proof, well, if the above quotes don't convince you, nothing will. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. If this isn't anti-semitic, I don't know what is. Replace the word Jew with Muslim or Black and let's see if you still feel there's no trace of racism in his statements.

No, he was'nt antisemitic. Partially because antisemitism did not start to blow up before the 1860's/1870's. But his wording would be construed as antisemitic.

Wording =/= The man.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Dimentio:


But you should admit that could be interpreted as antisemitic by some people, and not only jerk-offs?

I admit no such thing, unless you mean this:


But you should admit that could be unfairly interpreted as antisemitic by some people, and not only jerk-offs?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Ben Hur:


Marx certainly was anti-semitic, but he somehow felt it was justifiable. People who ask for proof, well, if the above quotes don't convince you, nothing will. What is the secular cult of the Jew? Haggling. If this isn't anti-semitic, I don't know what is. Replace the word Jew with Muslim or Black and let's see if you still feel there's no trace of racism in his statements.

Have you not read Hal Draper's article?!

http://marxmyths.org/hal-draper/article.htm

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

ZeroNowhere:


Wait, what? I do not see how this is in any way relevant to the discussion, unless you're trying to imply that saying that Marx wasn't an anti-Semite is Marx-worship.

Dimentio's point is that to defend every last thing Marx wrote, did or thought is just hero worship. Plainly, Marx was a human being, and made mistakes. Indeed, he changed his mind several times -- so even he recognised he had made mistakes.

It just so happens that this was not one of them.

[ZeroNowhere]

ZeroNowhere:



Dimentio's point is that to defend every last thing Marx wrote, did or thought is just hero worship. Plainly, Marx was a human being, and made mistakes. Indeed, he changed his mind several times -- so even he recognised he had made mistakes.

It just so happens that this was not one of them.
Well, yes, but there wasn't really any relevance or reason to bring this up within this thread.

Edit: Also, since somebody was referring to Marx's views on Judaism: "I have just been visited by the chief of the Jewish community here, who has asked me for a petition for the Jews to the Provincial Assembly, and I am willing to do it. However much I dislike the Jewish faith, Bauer's view seems to me too abstract." Also, when we're on the subject of Bauer, it seems rather strange that I currently know of two crappy 'Anti-Critiques', one by Bruno Bauer, and another against Otto Bauer.

[Agrippa]

When I said ex-Jew, I meant it in the same way as ex-catholic. I was referring to his religion, not his race. Also, you do not have to be ethically Jewish to be a Jew (believer in Judaism).

But anyone who studies Jewish religion or goes out of their way to sincerely worship יהוה is for all intents and purposes a member of the Jewish cultural tradition regardless of their "biological ethnicity", if any such thing can even be said to exist.

[Agrippa]

Anti-racism and the fight against racism is really a product of the 20th century. :)

I respectfully disagree. The Jews, for example, have resisted anti-Semitism long before capitalism, European imperialism, and so on were even visions in statesmens' minds. The Jews were fighting anti-Semitism when it was being waged by the Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greco-Roman empires. Anti-colonial resistance is as old as colonialism. Plenty of Marx's contemporaries were more receptive to the notion of Jewish nationalism, so if Marx's position is interpreted as anti-Semitic, (or makes him a "self-hating Jew") the "product of his times" argument doesn't work

[Il Medico]

Yes, mainly because their 'cultural tradition' is their religion, otherwise they would just be considered middle eastern.

[Agrippa]

While that's true, many Ashkenazim are genetically identical to their Goyish European neighbors. Judaism is more of a cultural rather than biological lineage.

[TrueLeninist]

The jews of that time were like the muslims today. The jews of that time at least the poor jews were harassed and oppressed by the Nazis. like the muslims are today harassed and repressed by US imperialism and the Zionist Israel state. How crazy this is, jews were opressed many years ago, and now 70% of Israelis support the illegal invasion of Gaza territories







I just read about "On The Jewish Question" and Some people have said that it is anti-semetic... what are your thoughts?
I don't want to be called a nazi or an anti-semitist just because I read Marx's works...

[9]

Yes. But you should admit that could be interpreted as antisemitic by some people, and not only jerk-offs? :P

I am Jewish. I am also anti-Zionist. As a result, I have been called an "anti-Semite" on three different occasions by three different unrelated individuals since Monday. In other words, anything can be interpreted as antisemitic by "some people".