No2EU

[Pogue]

So whats the conclusive deal? I've heard stuff about them saying and doing some slightly worrying nationalistic stuff, can anyone explain fully and provide evidence?

[Tower of Bebel]

There's already a thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/european-elections-no2eu-t108633/index.html) on the subject. Basically, it's a discussion concerning the project's programmatic demands. The lack of strong attacks against Brittish capitalism are the main issue (while on the other hand the attacks against European imperialism could invoke the idea that Brittain is an alternative).

[Pogue]

So have they actually put forward a racist/nationalist policy?

[Sam_b]

Racism does not equal nationalism so stop trying to equate them by '/'. If you want to know their policies I don't see why you can't read their website.

[Q]

So have they actually put forward a racist/nationalist policy?
No. The argument as I understand it is more that No2EU is "nationalist by implication".

[Holden Caulfield]

It isn't fully socialist, this I will admit, but it is by no means 'nationalist' or racist.

[Tower of Bebel]

So have they actually put forward a racist/nationalist policy?

Nation states with the right to self-determination and their governments are the only institutions that can control the movement of big capital and clip the wings of the trans-national corporations and banks. This means democratic control of the major banks, including the Bank of England, and full public ownership and democratic accountability of railways, postal services, NHS, and the energy industry.

To revitalise the economy, Britain must return to creating wealth based especially in manufacturing, hi-tech and trade across the world.

An end must be made to the dependence on service industries especially the financial sector. To return to an economy based on manufacturing requires massive investment and where appropriate protection of home industries. It is the only way to ensure jobs and a decent safe future for the peoples of Britain.No2EU (http://no2eu.com/index.html) (explained) Yes2Democracy (remains unexplained).

So... what is meant by "democratic" I don't know.

[Q]

No2EU (http://no2eu.com/index.html) (explained) Yes2Democracy (remains unexplained).

So... what is meant by "democratic" I don't know.
Incidentally, the Dutch SP has the exact same logic with their "Dutch people want less Brussels". I agree these are issues we should combat.

[Killfacer]

It's certianly not racist, that's just stupid and i don't know where that came from. I think they have some issues regarding their campaign which do come across as nationalist. I'm not going to be voting for them. I think i will just spoil my ballot.

[Q]

Come on Sam, we all know you don't have anything useful to say, news to you, your not really upsetting me with your arogant little swipes, it just reconfirms my believes of you being a horrible arogant little middle class kid, which i think most other people are picking up on also, so hush for me mate yeh?
You're accusing sam_b while doing the same thing...

Keep it on topic kids, don't get at eachothers throat all the time. It gets boring.

[Pogue]

Yeh I didn't think they were racist but I'd heard things to that effect about some nationalistic stuff bordering on racist, or for people like Samb, lets be more accurate, xenophobic.

[Tower of Bebel]

It's certianly not racist, that's just stupid and i don't know where that came from. I think they have some issues regarding their campaign which do come across as nationalist. I'm not going to be voting for them. I think i will just spoil my ballot.
Well... while it argues against European policy concerning the free movement of labour it doens't stage an assault against fortress Europe/Brittain :(. Though it can be argued that in this case nationalism is very implicit.

[Tower of Bebel]

Incidentally, the Dutch SP has the exact same logic with their "Dutch people want less Brussels". I agree these are issues we should combat.
After all the Socialist Party should only receive critical support.

[redarmyfaction38]

After all the Socialist Party should only receive critical support.
critical SUPPORT is always welcome, dissing the socialist party and no2euro by calling them nationalist or racist is not.
look, the way i see it, is no2euro is a broad "leftist" coalition, it understands fully the consequences of agreeing to the neo liberal capitalist, lisbon treaty and this has forced "socialist" groupings to accede to liberal politics in order to build an alternative to all the bullshit from the nationalist/racist bnp and its pro lisbon treaty main contributors to bnp popularity, the "big three parties".
it is not, by any means, a revolutionary alternative to the european community or capitalism, nor does it pretend to be.
it is a step, a small one, in building a new workers party, it is an echo of how the british labour party was first born.
as we're all so fond of history on here, this tactic, shouldn't, honestly, be that hard to understand.

[Tower of Bebel]

TBH I don't know whether No2eu is a "broad" leftist coalition. Why wasn't the SWP/Respect involved from the beginning? Or the SPGB and CPGB for that mather? And why is the liberal party involved?

[ls]

Be honest - isn't it inevitable that some people are going to twist it to be the way they want it to be? I guess you could say that revleft is nationalistic/racist because the national bolsheviks linked to it..

People will always think things to be the way they wish them to be, I don't think that most of the people that support no2eu are nationalistic tbh, the evidence produced about one member going around posting it on loads of sites is just one person.

I don't think it's by any means perfect, it's a shame it is reformist, but it does not inherently have bad intentions that I can see (as some people are painting it out to have).

Also the things about it 'not being anti-imperialist enough' can be applied to so many things, criticising the british empire as you believe it to exist now is especially redundant.

Oh yeah and bear in mind that RESPECT candidate George Galloway is himself a racist, turning tensions between people of different races against one another to gain his seat for Bow & Bethnal Green. The Scottish section of the SWP support this campaign also apparently.


I can't remember any time that Bob has threatened you with restriction.

Like he's gonna tell the world if he does threaten someone.

[Sam_b]

The Scottish section of the SWP support this campaign also apparently

Written proof?

If you're referring to what I said on the forum I will remind you that was based on what I thought was happening in Scotland and not from anything reliable. The fact is that Solidarity supports it but for the SWP we are urging people to use their vote against the BNP, and not for any particular grouping.

[ls]

Written proof?

If you're referring to what I said on the forum I will remind you that was based on what I thought was happening in Scotland and not from anything reliable. The fact is that Solidarity supports it but for the SWP we are urging people to use their vote against the BNP, and not for any particular grouping.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/may2009/scot-m11.shtml


Sheridan has moved into No2EU, despite its leading tendency, the Communist Party of Britain, opposing Scottish independence. In addition, the SWP in Scotland is now standing as part of an election alliance that is not supported by the SWP south of the border.

I think it's obvious what that means.

[Sam_b]

That election alliance is Solidarity, and has been there for a number of years. Just because the measure was supported by Solidarity as an organisation does not mean the SWP bloc in the party support it. Unless you would like some sort of 'drama' like a split?

Have you got anything directly from the SWP on this? Indeed, where is the ICFI evidence supporting their claim?

[ls]

That election alliance is Solidarity, and has been there for a number of years. Just because the measure was supported by Solidarity as an organisation does not mean the SWP bloc in the party support it.

But it says that they do? It says SWP members unless you read incorrectly?


Unless you would like some sort of 'drama' like a split?

The fuck? Where did I say that? It sounds more like you do.


Have you got anything directly from the SWP on this?

What you mean the wonderful support the southern bloc of the SWP are giving it? No of course not, as it says, they don't really support this - that's typical and instead of accusing me of wanting your organisation split up, perhaps you should work out that it's already internally divided as fuck.


Indeed, where is the ICFI evidence supporting their claim?

I think that that link is evidence enough to be honest, if it wasn't at least I can't find any public denouncements of it on the internet by Scottish SWP members (we all know how much SWP members love to blog about all kinds of stuff).

[Sam_b]

But it says that they do? It says SWP members unless you read incorrectly?

Thats not a reason for anything. Socialist Unity says a lot of things, 'because they do' doesn't mae that reality.


I think that that link is evidence enough to be honest, if it wasn't at least I can't find any public denouncements of it on the internet by Scottish SWP members (we all know how much SWP members love to blog about all kinds of stuff).

So we establish you have no evidence. Because the ICFI, an insignificant tiny sect, says it does means the party does itself? And for the next part, so what? I do not support No2Eu yet I haven't given public denouncements. We don't support the SSP's campaign but we haven't publicly denounced it either. So unless you find an SWP source saying that we support No2EU (and you'd think if we were supporting it there would be stuff out there and we would be building the campaign and urging support) please don't accuse us of doing something we haven't.

[ls]

Thats not a reason for anything. Socialist Unity says a lot of things, 'because they do' doesn't mae that reality.

No but I see no denouncements of it.


So we establish you have no evidence.

Socialist unity is evidence enough.


Because the ICFI, an insignificant tiny sect, says it does means the party does itself? And for the next part, so what?

You tell me - you wanted an explanation?


I do not support No2Eu yet I haven't given public denouncements. We don't support the SSP's campaign but we haven't publicly denounced it either. So unless you find an SWP source saying that we support No2EU (and you'd think if we were supporting it there would be stuff out there and we would be building the campaign and urging support) please don't accuse us of doing something we haven't.

Actually I can't because the page that was indeed up on the socialist worker site has been taken down, conveniently your party have removed google caching of the site and robots are excluded from crawling it to archive old pages http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/ <- you notice no 2009 version or 6 months earlier anything in 2008 (which is when they make content available).

Anyhow there was previously a page on the site which did actively denounce the no2eu thing, your party are just smooth players in changing your policy with the wind. Typical SWP populist shit.

The fact that you have no real stance on it at all is proof enough of your mediocre positions on oh um, everything.

[Sam_b]

We don't have any real stance on it, because we're more concerned with activity to keep the BNP out. For us this is more important right now.

So please, if you're not going to provide evidence, it is insane to say we 'support' something because we haven't roundly condemned it. Its like saying LCAP support the Sri Lankan army against the Tamils because you haven't released a statement condemning it. So again, if you're not going to give any sources please don't assume or try to tarnish us by saying we do something when we don't.

And for your information, all back issues of Socialist Worker are available at http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/yearlist.php?year=2009 so don't pull that one.

[ls]

We don't have any real stance on it, because we're more concerned with activity to keep the BNP out. For us this is more important right now.

Yea yeah, your most important activity is promoting your popular front lameness.


So please, if you're not going to provide evidence, it is insane to say we 'support' something because we haven't roundly condemned it.

No you just don't have a stance on it apparently, although the Scottish section appear to.


Its like saying LCAP support the Sri Lankan army against the Tamils because you haven't released a statement condemning it.

LCAP aren't a party nor anything like it at all whatsoever.


So again, if you're not going to give any sources please don't assume or try to tarnish us by saying we do something when we don't.

If you try and cover it up, expect to be shown up.


And for your information, all back issues of Socialist Worker are available at http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/yearlist.php?year=2009 so don't pull that one.

The fact there are no results when you do a site search on swp.org.uk and only one result on socialistworker where there were many results before indicates to me that the sites are constantly revised and stuff is scrubbed out as your policies change like the wind. So yes, I'm accusing you of lying about that directly.

[Revy]

I read their website, and THAT'S why I don't like them.

Even if it's not "racist", it's still nationalism. They claim their chauvinistic views on immigration are not racist - and I don't disagree, but they ARE xenophobic. They can put it in the "workers' rights" frame but that's the same line many xenophobes here in the US take, those people on the right here like to talk about "American workers" in the same way.

"Yes to Democracy" - yet there are no real democratic demands aside from more nationalist crap about national sovereignty from Brussels.

It's opportunistic, because they are trying to mobilize around Euro-skepticism rather than socialism.

[Sam_b]

So frim that ls we can gleam you can find no evidence at all, and are having to resort to slander (your most important activity is promoting your popular front lameness blah blah) than sticking to the real issue.

The Scottish section does not 'appear' to support anything, as you have not quoted a single article, release or comment from them. So you've failed to show any evidence for your usual baseless crap.

[ls]

we can gleam you can find no evidence at all, and are having to resort to slander (your most important activity is promoting your popular front lameness blah blah) than sticking to the real issue.

Here's your own post http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1440440&postcount=12 pretty much admitting it. Enjoy.


The Scottish section does not 'appear' to support anything, as you have not quoted a single article, release or comment from them. So you've failed to show any evidence for your usual baseless crap.

As it is members of the SWP in the Scottish section and not the entire section itself (note partial support as everything has indicated thus far), it does 'appear' that members in it do support it.

[ZeroNowhere]

Yeh I didn't think they were racist but I'd heard things to that effect about some nationalistic stuff bordering on racist, or for people like Samb, lets be more accurate, xenophobic.Look, can we cut the petty infighting for a while, at least? By which I mean, criticize with substance, and when it has something to do with the topic. Also, HLVS is a petit-bourgeois liberal.
If you wish to criticize, please focus on No2EU, assuming that you actually find it worth bothering with.


it is a step, a small one, in building a new workers party, it is an echo of how the british labour party was first born.
Well, that's not especially encouraging.

[Pogue]

tbh i only care about it in so far as wondering what the best option on the voting list is. i can't vote myself anyway so its not an issue, but atm i'd say if you were going to vote anyway no2eu is the best choice on there.

[h0m0revolutionary]

No2EU stems from the stalinist CPB and is their attempt to build socialism in one country Just like the national socialists of the BNP, the CPB too are national socialist and they dominate No2EU and as a consequence they reserve all criticism of the British state, capitalism and British capital.

as for racist, well no many of them are not, but the CPB are.

take this little quote from a recent Manchester meeting I attended
" we have a proud history of immigration CONTROLS in this country"
(http://hammer-and-sickle.blogspot.com/2009/05/no2eu-launch-fucking-disaster-says-cpb.html)

plus the No2EU platform of condemning "the so-called ‘free movement’ of labour" in the EU and "the social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain"

[Sam_b]

Here's your own post http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=12 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1440440&postcount=12) pretty much admitting it. Enjoy.


Do you have memory problems? Only a few posts before that I said "If you're referring to what I said on the forum I will remind you that was based on what I thought was happening in Scotland and not from anything reliable". Not only this but you'll notice in the post in question I admit that "I could be wrong". And yes, I was.

So let's get this straight: you have found no proof from the SWP that the party is supporting No2EU, not even any campaigning articles or posts from Socialist Worker itself. Instead you believe the entire line of the Scotland section is based on a RevLeft poster who is currently active in a different IST organisation several hundred miles away, in a different country!

So, i'll ask you again: do you have any substancial proof? Any sources? Of course you don't. As much as you want to try and put something on another organisation you dislike you cannot do it. Its laughable that you're trying to do this 'partial' bollocks because we have not come out against it and prefer to work on our project against the BNP rather than join the petty little slanderfest that you apparent 'libertarian socialists' revel in.

I look forward to reading the abundance of SW articles that tell of our support for No2EU, because they'll be loads of them if your position is based in reality.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

So whats the conclusive deal? I've heard stuff about them saying and doing some slightly worrying nationalistic stuff, can anyone explain fully and provide evidence?
Of all the things to base their name around, they chose a name based on defending British sovereignty against Europe. That kind of says it all, really.

It isn't fully socialist, this I will admit, but it is by no means 'nationalist' or racist.
What definition of nationalism are you using here? They oppose the free movement of workers, FFS.


it is a step, a small one, in building a new workers party, it is an echo of how the british labour party was first born.
As zeronowhere says, why would we want to build a new Labour party? Having one of the sodding things is bad enough. Shouldn't we try to build something better?


Also the things about it 'not being anti-imperialist enough' can be applied to so many things, criticising the british empire as you believe it to exist now is especially redundant.
Anti-imperialism is a dodgy term anyway. But do you agree with them wanting to strengthen the British state's barriers against immigrants?


Anyhow there was previously a page on the site which did actively denounce the no2eu thing, your party are just smooth players in changing your policy with the wind. Typical SWP populist shit.

The fact that you have no real stance on it at all is proof enough of your mediocre positions on oh um, everything.
TBF, I'm sure they don't support it. They can't completely monopolise it with their politics, and when have they ever been interested in working in groups they don't have total control over?

[ls]

Do you have memory problems? Only a few posts before that I said "If you're referring to what I said on the forum I will remind you that was based on what I thought was happening in Scotland and not from anything reliable". Not only this but you'll notice in the post in question I admit that "I could be wrong".

My memory is fine, did not need your post to remind me you posted about it before.


And yes, I was.

Prove it.


So let's get this straight: you have found no proof from the SWP that the party is supporting No2EU, not even any campaigning articles or posts from Socialist Worker itself. Instead you believe the entire line of the Scotland section is based on a RevLeft poster who is currently active in a different IST organisation several hundred miles away, in a different country!

What people in the party support and what the party as a whole support are two entirely separate things. You might try mind control on members but it obviously does not work.


So, i'll ask you again: do you have any substancial proof?

Unusual for you sam, you seem like the type who spellchecks every bit of his posts.


Any sources? Of course you don't. As much as you want to try and put something on another organisation you dislike you cannot do it. Its laughable that you're trying to do this 'partial' bollocks because we have not come out against it and prefer to work on our project against the BNP rather than join the petty little slanderfest that you apparent 'libertarian socialists' revel in.

Very rich coming from you with your recent posts.


I look forward to reading the abundance of SW articles that tell of our support for No2EU, because they'll be loads of them if your position is based in reality.

Why would there be loads of them? Your party are snakes.

[Sam_b]

Swing and a miss from LS. Even one of your fellow anarchists is saying we don't support it!

So I guess that makes it clear now: you have absolutely no proof we support No2EU. Unless of course.....

[ls]

Swing and a miss from LS. Even one of your fellow anarchists is saying we don't support it!

This is quite an odd turn of events. Don't you advocate that people not particularly stick to a tendency? That it doesn't particularly matter? 'fellow anarchists' do not somehow represent what my viewpoint 'should be'.


So I guess that makes it clear now: you have absolutely no proof we support No2EU. Unless of course.....

...'we' is subjective and some members in the Scottish section in fact do, but not the party as a whole.


Of all the things to base their name around, they chose a name based on defending British sovereignty against Europe. That kind of says it all, really.

A bourgeoisie democracy isn't worth defending, that fact necessarily means that name does not explicitly advocate British sovereignty.


What definition of nationalism are you using here? They oppose the free movement of workers, FFS.

I know it's easy to say 'so do the BNP' and that it sounds similar to some of their wording.. why they may even give similar reasons as to why they oppose it "humans are shipped around treated and like crap/local jobs for local people worldwide" etc, but the _underlying_ reasons why are just not the same at all. I'm not a massive fan of Bob Crow or his Stalinist politics but he is not a nationalist nor a racist. The fact that one wanker went around posting about it to nationalist sites could just as easily be an attempt by the BNP themselves to try and 'taint' it....


As zeronowhere says, why would we want to build a new Labour party? Having one of the sodding things is bad enough. Shouldn't we try to build something better?

No2eu are a platform not a party.


Anti-imperialism is a dodgy term anyway. But do you agree with them wanting to strengthen the British state's barriers against immigrants?

No of course not. I agree with better conditions for workers i.e. the ability for employers to easily find cheap foreign labour then exploit at the click of a thumb to be taken away.


TBF, I'm sure they don't support it. They can't completely monopolise it with their politics, and when have they ever been interested in working in groups they don't have total control over?

RESPECT for a while, to be honest nothing with the SWP lasts for that long before it becomes 'official policy' that if you support this or that, you're out of the party (neat way of shifting people's positions forcefully).

[Zurdito]

LS:


No of course not. I agree with better conditions for workers i.e. the ability for employers to easily find cheap foreign labour then exploit at the click of a thumb to be taken away.


This currently happens, it always has udner capitalism, and always will. The answer is not to ask for more limits on the free movement of labour, but less.

Notice that no capitalist class int he world wants to remove immigration controls to its country, or pushes for this. Why? Because by making foreign workers ilelgal, you deny them the right to organize, to defend their rights, to unite with "native" workers, and strengthen the working class as a whole. This is why the bourgoeisie needs illegal workers.

There is also the question of what would happen if too many workers in underdeveloped countries escaped, and these countries stopped being a useful source of cheap labor. Or the question of what happens when more immigrants flood into the developed countries than the bourgeoisie needs to push down wages and superxploit, ofrcing them to pay costs they don't benefit from.

All in all immigration controls only benefit capitalists, and getting rid of them would in fact be a disaster for the system.

The answer is not to make more workers illegal, but to make no worker illegal - though I will go further and say that no human being is illegal. NO2EU's Stalinsit leaders ignore this, not because they are stupid but because they are riding a wave of reactionary opinion to get themselves important positions, like the bureaucrats they are.

[ls]

This currently happens, it always has udner capitalism, and always will.

Yes it has.


The answer is not to ask for more limits on the free movement of labour, but less.

Which is why we should oppose the EU, it is a bourgeoisie 'democracy', a careful honing of government power.


All in all immigration controls only benefit capitalists, and getting rid of them would in fact be a disaster for the system.

Indeed. The EU makes 75% of laws not just in the UK but also massively in other countries, by attacking all sources of controls especially in such a super-honed system like the EU you are attacking a heart of the system.


The answer is not to make more workers illegal, but to make no worker illegal - though I will go further and say that no human being is illegal.

And people push for this all the time - as they should, it's correct.


NO2EU's Stalinsit leaders ignore this, not because they are stupid but because they are riding a wave of reactionary opinion to get themselves important positions, like the bureaucrats they are.

Not every opinion is as reactionary as you may think, many people with semi-nationalist ideas (and believe me I know a great many) agree that conditions must be improved throughout the world and not just in one country, honest belief in that and not in watery tripe like the BNP/other nationalist parties' "People of a country belong in their own country! We'd fight for blacks to remain in Africa!" is extremely different.

Also this 'important position' is negated by the fact they will not receive money from nor stand in the actual European parliament.

Despite my defence of some of their positions by the way I'd say people shouldn't vote in this election.

NO2EU is an interesting platform, with any luck experience will be gained from it and we can move forward in more practical ways of combating not only mass congregations of bourgeoisie politicians, but also fascists simultaneously (and move away from electoralism).

[redarmyfaction38]

TBH I don't know whether No2eu is a "broad" leftist coalition. Why wasn't the SWP/Respect involved from the beginning? Or the SPGB and CPGB for that mather? And why is the liberal party involved?
the swp and respect, now different entities, didn't want to be involved, that's why. as for the spgb i suspect, their attitude was "another broad front ffs!"
btw, i like the attitude of comrades in spgb, even if i don't agree with them, as for cpgb, no idea.
there is a lberal party member involved who has agreed to take the same position as "socialist" and "trade union" candidates, whereby he/she (can't remember which), will not personally profit from being elected as an mep should that ever happen.

[Zurdito]

Which is why we should oppose the EU, it is a bourgeoisie 'democracy', a careful honing of government power.

Indeed. The EU makes 75% of laws not just in the UK but also massively in other countries, by attacking all sources of controls especially in such a super-honed system like the EU you are attacking a heart of the system.

I do oppose the EU, but not in the name of defending the sovereignity of individual states, which is what NO2EU is about.


And people push for this all the time - as they should, it's correct.

people do, but NO2EU doesn't, it is against "social dumping", not against removing immigration controls. This is why all the organizations involved supported the "British jobs for British workers" strikes - they think British workers should fight for jobs at the expense of foreign workers.



Not every opinion is as reactionary as you may think, many people with semi-nationalist ideas (and believe me I know a great many) agree that conditions must be improved throughout the world and not just in one country, honest belief in that and not in watery tripe like the BNP/other nationalist parties' "People of a country belong in their own country! We'd fight for blacks to remain in Africa!" is extremely different.


Wait, I didn't sya NO2EU was the same as the BNP. I think it is left-wing nationalist, which like you say, says that through protectionism, you cna rasie living standards everywhere. But in fact protectionism by countries like Britain is a big cause of poverty in the third world, and while I wouldn't expect everyone to know this, I think the CPB, RMT and SP leaderships probably do.



Despite my defence of some of their positions by the way I'd say people shouldn't vote in this election.


From what I can tell from the outside, I agree.

[Sam_b]

The Scottish section of the SWP support this campaign also apparently.

'we' is subjective and some members in the Scottish section in fact do, but not the party as a whole

So you've completely flip-flopped your assertion and position! So you admit that the SWP in Scotland does not support No2EU, and that you have absolutely no evidence!

[ls]

I do oppose the EU, but not in the name of defending the sovereignity of individual states, which is what NO2EU is about.

I'm not sure if sovereignty is the right word here, they do talk about giving democratic rights and reforming trade for each state too.


We want to see a Europe of independent, democratic states that value its public services and does not offer them to profiteers; a Europe that guarantees the rights of workers and does not put the interests of big business above that of ordinary people. We believe the current structures of the EU makes this impossible.

That may sound like weasel-wording for the same thing to you, to me it sounds like a rational explanation of 'how things are'.


people do, but NO2EU doesn't, it is against "social dumping", not against removing immigration controls. This is why all the organizations involved supported the "British jobs for British workers" strikes - they think British workers should fight for jobs at the expense of foreign workers.

To be fair, in their 'we say' bit..


Replace unequal EU trade deals with fair trade that benefits developing nations

I don't honestly think that they do believe in 'socialism in one country', their aims and ideas are pretty reformist though.


Wait, I didn't sya NO2EU was the same as the BNP. I think it is left-wing nationalist, which like you say, says that through protectionism, you cna rasie living standards everywhere.

I'm not sure if protectionism is the right word..


But in fact protectionism by countries like Britain is a big cause of poverty in the third world, and while I wouldn't expect everyone to know this, I think the CPB, RMT and SP leaderships probably do.

Yeah, but the thing is that most of their aims which are I believe, to attack and reform the system, seem genuine, they do not seem like they argue for protectionism quite to me. I agree that some of the wording does not inspire confidence in this respect and that it could attract as you say reactionaries, but then that can happen anyway.


So you've completely flip-flopped your assertion and position! So you admit that the SWP in Scotland does not support No2EU, and that you have absolutely no evidence!

Despite what the SWP think about socialism from above (as your good friend Bobkindles put it in his usertitle once).. a party is made of its members. Unofficial policy can be stronger than the 'line of the party'.

[Sam_b]

Unofficial policy can be stronger than the 'line of the party'.

There is not an unofficial policy going on at all. Rather just the fact wwe don't support No2EU, which you have been forced to admit.

[Angry Young Man]

I knew this'd bloody happen! I hear at branch that the party's supporting a party called No2EU. Euroscepticism was always largely monopolised by right - it's always the right of the Tory party, there's the UKIP (who I jocularly refer to as the middle-class wing of the BNP), and there's that boiling-over fruit Kilroy. That and the left should want a united Socialist world.

Plus, I'm no Che, but I think the EU could be crucial to world revolution, because there you would have half of the 1st World able to dismantle the US Empire and develop the 3rd World.

All I'm saying is that they should have thought of a better name.

[ls]

There is not an unofficial policy going on at all.

Yes members support it that are in Scotland's branch of the SWP, enough for wsws to write about it.


Rather just the fact wwe don't support No2EU, which you have been forced to admit.

As there is no official policy stating 'we don't support No2EU' I suggest there isn't anything you can say about it either way.

[Sam_b]

Yes members support it that are in Scotland's branch of the SWP, enough for wsws to write about it.

Again changing your tune from before. Enough, you'll notice, for the WSWS to write about it with no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise.

Seeing as you know so much about the SWP in Scotland, why don't you name these people that support it? I haven't talked to a branch comrade yet that has said they do.

[Zurdito]

LS: you really think the Communist Party of Britain and the RMT leadership genuinely want socialism? This is pretty surprising from an anarchist.

[ls]

LS: you really think the Communist Party of Britain and the RMT leadership genuinely want socialism? This is pretty surprising from an anarchist.

If this was in response to any particular thing I wrote.. but no, anyway.. As I said before:


I don't honestly think that they do believe in 'socialism in one country', their aims and ideas are pretty reformist though.

As you should know, I don't believe reformism can be genuine socialism.


Again changing your tune from before.

How? I'm just pointing out to you the obvious.


Enough, you'll notice, for the WSWS to write about it with no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise.

It's more evidence than you've produced that they don't have a position.


Seeing as you know so much about the SWP in Scotland, why don't you name these people that support it? I haven't talked to a branch comrade yet that has said they do.

Then can you please state how you know that they actually don't support it, as an organisation or otherwise.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I'm not sure if sovereignty is the right word here, they do talk about giving democratic rights and reforming trade for each state too.
That sounds a lot like state sovereignty to me. It definitely doesn't sound like internationalism.


We want to see a Europe of independent, democratic states ... That may sound like weasel-wording for the same thing to you, to me it sounds like a rational explanation of 'how things are'.

Talking about independent states definitely sounds like nationalism to me.

Yeah, but the thing is that most of their aims which are I believe, to attack and reform the system, seem genuine, they do not seem like they argue for protectionism quite to me. I agree that some of the wording does not inspire confidence in this respect and that it could attract as you say reactionaries, but then that can happen anyway.

They want to attack and reform the European Union to put more hands in the power of the British ruling class. How is that a good thing for us?


Despite what the SWP think about socialism from above (as your good friend Bobkindles put it in his usertitle once).. a party is made of its members. Unofficial policy can be stronger than the 'line of the party'.
Seriously, you can attack the SWP for a lot of things, but I really don't think you can say they give too much autonomy to their members.

[Revy]

I'm not sure if sovereignty is the right word here, they do talk about giving democratic rights and reforming trade for each state too.


That's what they say in their election broadcast. "Restore Britain's sovereignty".
Along with a bunch of other bullshit, like fear mongering about the free movement of labor and foreign workers.

You see, when they put out stuff like this, all they are doing is benefiting UKIP, which has been gaining ground in the polls. People think, "I agree with this, but I'm not voting for these left-wing goofballs".

What they should have been doing is in fact the complete opposite of what they have been doing, an internationalist campaign, putting forward real democratic demands, making the campaign actually about socialism.

But No2EU has all the ingredients for a personality cult. It may look like a halfway house for left parties but Bob Crow is going to tighten the reins and start up his dictatorship.

[Zurdito]

LS - it was in response to this (chill dude, not every post has to be a line by line response ;)):



Yeah, but the thing is that most of their aims which are I believe, to attack and reform the system, seem genuine, they do not seem like they argue for protectionism quite to me.


and this:


I don't honestly think that they do believe in 'socialism in one country', their aims and ideas are pretty reformist though.

Ok, you didn't say socialism, apologies for jumping the gun. But you seem to think the people leading NO2EU - i.e. the CPB and RMT bureaucracy - are genuinely progressive. Also, the CPB would be surprised to hear you say they don't believe in socialism in one country.

As for attracting reactionaries - actually I think that's the best thing NO2EU can do - win over people with reactionary sentiment from the BNP. If there is any conceivable excuse for it, it would be that. But the biggest danger is not that, it is that it's reactionary leaders will win over progressive workers to a dead end strategy. :(

[ls]

We want to see a Europe of independent, democratic states ...

That may sound like weasel-wording for the same thing to you, to me it sounds like a rational explanation of 'how things are'.


Talking about independent states definitely sounds like nationalism to me.

To be fair, you selectively quoted me quoting the first part of that bit of text, I think in this case it's important you include all of what was quoted in that bit there, if you are making the point directly aginst my post that it was weasel wording then you could have just said so.


They want to attack and reform the European Union to put more hands in the power of the British ruling class. How is that a good thing for us?

I can't particularly see how you came to the conclusion that they want to put more power into the hands of the British ruling class.


Seriously, you can attack the SWP for a lot of things, but I really don't think you can say they give too much autonomy to their members.

They don't. What I'm saying is that individual members' positions in politics get somehow nullified by the big 'party line'.


That's what they say in their election broadcast. "Restore Britain's sovereignty".

Link if possible?


Along with a bunch of other bullshit, like fear mongering about the free movement of labor and foreign workers.

Please show me precisely what.


You see, when they put out stuff like this, all they are doing is benefiting UKIP, which has been gaining ground in the polls. People think, "I agree with this, but I'm not voting for these left-wing goofballs".

Come on now, UKIP don't have a chance at anything.


What they should have been doing is in fact the complete opposite of what they have been doing, an internationalist campaign, putting forward real democratic demands, making the campaign actually about socialism.

Yes they should make it more like that and move away from electoralism, I don't think it is the "complete opposite of what they have been doing" however.


But No2EU has all the ingredients for a personality cult. It may look like a halfway house for left parties but Bob Crow is going to tighten the reins and start up his dictatorship.

We'll see how it progresses, I'm doubtful it will turn into some Stalinist mini-dictatorship. :P


Ok, you didn't say socialism, apologies for jumping the gun. But you seem to think the people leading NO2EU - i.e. the CPB and RMT bureaucracy - are genuinely progressive. ..

NO2EU as a platform can be progressive in a limited sense yes.


As for attracting reactionaries - actually I think that's the best thing NO2EU can do - win over people with reactionary sentiment from the BNP. If there is any conceivable excuse for it, it would be that. But the biggest danger is not that, it is that it's reactionary leaders will win over progressive workers to a dead end strategy.

Don't think that latter bit will happen, killing people off from the BNP would be one of the main ways it could be progressive though.

[Sam_b]

Then can you please state how you know that they actually don't support it, as an organisation or otherwise.

Its really not that difficult to understand. Our campaign at this election is not supporting any political party: rather, our position is we encourage workers to use their vote to keep out the BNP, and to stop the rise of them. This is sourced in:

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17982
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17631
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17925
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17870 and so on.

Now, your line is blatantly ridiculous. You will know, seeing as you have an interest in our party, that when elections come, we will release statement after statement, leading articles in the paper, about who we support in the election or which electoral group we are participating in. So it would be odd, however, that the only mention in the past few months about No2EU is just this:



Members of the RMT and Aslef transport unions campaigning for the No2EU – Yes to democracy group clashed with the BNP in the town centre last Saturday.
Shoppers told the leafleters that they were glad someone was standing up to the BNP.

If we support this organisation, surely they would merit more than a half-paragraph?

Your whole argument is a complete fallacy - and this is shown by none of your fellow critics of the SWP jumping in and following your thinking on this. But hey, lets think about this a bit more. We like to pride ourselves as being a truly internationalist group. We haven't done an article on Czech politics for a while, especially for the upcoming Euro elections. Indeed, we haven't done an article since the fall of the Topolanek government. So, because we haven't had any articles about it, and according to your logic, the SWP must support the OCD, or maybe even the Worker's Party, becuase we haven't released an article roundly condemning both organisations! This is of course, sheer lunacy. But your organisations, such as LCAP and L&S, also support these parties because they haven't released a statement of condemnation.

Rather than jump in and lambast No2EU, we ourselves are continuing with our campaign to stop the Nazis getting a seat. We won't and haven't got involved in it. It speaks volumes that once you completely failed to find any shred of evidence to support your claims, you then made the absurd assertion that we must support it anyway because we haven't written about it!

Now if you keep parroting that same ridiculous line, it shows you up as being a bit of an idiot.

[MikeSC]

Not to take either side of the debate, but what's the problem with them focussing on changing the UK and distancing it from the EU's more nefarious antics? No political party can promise anything more than this, and revolutionary movements tend to stick to the one country- not being able to be everywhere at once doesn't mean they're single-country-Stalinists.

An international revolutionary socialist movement would of course be better to have, but No2EU seems to be a party that seeks to secure better rights for workers (internationally, as they've been open about their opposition to the EU's treatment of third world workers- which isn't a populist reason to oppose the EU by any stretch of the imagination), to strengthen trade unions and weaken the power of capitalists. And they're doing it in a way that people in the UK can relate to their own experiences.

I guess I did end up taking a side in the debate :p I've only really browsed their website and watched their broadcast, though. And with that name they're not going to be a very long-lived movement, there's not going to be any "building the brand name" that could help in the future.

[ls]

Its really not that difficult to understand.

Indeed, but your position is one of.. what? You don't have a position? How does that make any sense?


Our campaign at this election is not supporting any political party

..except for yourselves (and for some of the more idiotic people in the SWP/that support the SWP, RESPECT).


rather, our position is we encourage workers to use their vote to keep out the BNP, and to stop the rise of them.

This is sourced in:

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17982


5 – How do we stop the BNP?

Unite Against Fascism (UAF) is a broad based campaign. Its supporters come from many different political backgrounds on the left – the Labour Party, the Socialist Workers Party, the trade union movement, faith and community groups and those with no political affiliations.

We may disagree on many things but one thing unites us – if the BNP ever took power we could all end up in concentration camps.

UAF uses mass propaganda to expose the Nazi face of the BNP and campaigns against it.

Love Music Hate Racism (LMHR) works alongside UAF using festivals and concerts to reach out to young people.

LMHR also goes into schools and colleges to make the case against the BNP.

But propaganda is not enough. Like other fascist parties, the BNP uses a dual strategy of participating in democratic politics while also organising terror gangs on the ground.

That means when the Nazis try to take to the streets – like they did in the 1930s in Cable Street, the 1970s in Lewisham and the 1990s in Brick Lane – it is vital that organisations like UAF and LMHR mobilises as many people as we can to stop them.

We also have to build a real fightback over jobs, housing and public services to stop the BNP feeding off despair.

Where does that say anything relevant to our discussion?


http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17631

The only thing I can find in this to even come close to corroborating your claim is this:
Even a small rise in the anti-BNP vote could make all the difference by increasing the number of votes to win a seat in the European parliament.

What do they mean by the anti-BNP vote though, it does not say.


http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17925

Alright so finally we see
So every vote against the Nazis matters, and anyone casting a vote for other parties can help to stop the BNP.

Then we see:
Glyn stressed that any complacency over the polls is dangerous. He urged activists to mobilise the anti-racist vote and “get out and put your cross on the ballot paper”.

Glyn of course being a Labour MEP. So technically your line is parroted off of the Labour party who just about advocate the same thing.


http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17870 and so on.




Now, your line is blatantly ridiculous. You will know, seeing as you have an interest in our party, that when elections come, we will release statement after statement, leading articles in the paper, about who we support in the election or which electoral group we are participating in. So it would be odd, however, that the only mention in the past few months about No2EU is just this:




If we support this organisation, surely they would merit more than a half-paragraph?

Alright, it's simple. It's fair enough now to say that the organisational structures who dictate the party line do not actively 'support' no2eu, mentioning it in that half-paragraph however showed it in a positive light, that you cannot deny, so you do not criticise it, perhaps you want to downplay what you perceive to be the 'nationalist' aspects of it (seeing as some SWP folk on here have been pretty critical of its lines - once again not 'official SWP policy' but something you as individuals believe in) - and focus on the anti-BNP aspect of it.


Your whole argument is a complete fallacy - and this is shown by none of your fellow critics of the SWP jumping in and following your thinking on this.

Perhaps unlike you, a party doesn't mostly dictate my line of thinking.


But hey, lets think about this a bit more. We like to pride ourselves as being a truly internationalist group. We haven't done an article on Czech politics for a while, especially for the upcoming Euro elections. Indeed, we haven't done an article since the fall of the Topolanek government. So, because we haven't had any articles about it, and according to your logic, the SWP must support the OCD, or maybe even the Worker's Party, becuase we haven't released an article roundly condemning both organisations! This is of course, sheer lunacy.

I'm not quite sure where this came from, but anyways..


But your organisations, such as LCAP and L&S, also support these parties because they haven't released a statement of condemnation.

Nice try, I'm not in L&S for a start. Anyways LCAP and L&S do not work like your party, members are actually given autonomy, of course there are a few things in which members ought to share common ground, but the party line in the SWP tends to dictate the scene. A good example of this is your good friend Bobkindles being forced to change his stance on degenerated workers' states in order to stay in the SWP.


Rather than jump in and lambast No2EU, we ourselves are continuing with our campaign to stop the Nazis getting a seat. We won't and haven't got involved in it. It speaks volumes that once you completely failed to find any shred of evidence to support your claims, you then made the absurd assertion that we must support it anyway because we haven't written about it!

Some members of the scottish section seem to support it, alright with the way you dictate things with your 'socialsm from above' you, as a party don't support it.


Now if you keep parroting that same ridiculous line, it shows you up as being a bit of an idiot.

What line? Perhaps I should've realised that people actually have individualised opinions in the SWP - granted, mind you with things like that with your friend Bob, it just makes you think how dictated to you it really is.

[Sam_b]

A bunch of dodging rubbish, until of course like a broken record you say that Some members of the scottish section seem to support it - something you have never been able to substanciate.

Instead you go on a rant about 'party lines' being dictated - which shows you now nothing about the SWP and how we form our ideas collectively. Saying that some SWP members support Respect Renewal really shows your ignorance on the issue.

So, lets go back to your idea that we somehow 'support' No2EU: you've not found a shred of evidence, have you?


Some members of the scottish section seem to support it

It was the logical conclusion to your inane argument that our party must support the organisation because we haven't released any statements against it.

[ls]

A bunch of dodging rubbish, until of course like a broken record you say that Some members of the scottish section seem to support it - something you have never been able to substanciate.

The forth international was linked but it appears it's easy to forget that.


Instead you go on a rant about 'party lines' being dictated - which shows you now nothing about the SWP and how we form our ideas collectively.

Yeah no doubt a lot like in UAF; some people putting their hands put and getting ignored, some people getting all their points communicated by the fact they are 'senior respected party members'.


Saying that some SWP members support Respect Renewal really shows your ignorance on the issue.

My ignorance? That's rich.


So, lets go back to your idea that we somehow 'support' No2EU: you've not found a shred of evidence, have you?

If you want to play it out in black and white: yes I have but you've conveniently denied it is evidence.

Also I don't care what you say about that socialist worker site archiving previous issues of it, when I googled through it before it was there, now it isn't, it isn't archived, it isn't on archive.org and it isn't even cached by google.

It was the logical conclusion to your inane argument that our party must support the organisation because we haven't released any statements against it.

[redarmyfaction38]

I knew this'd bloody happen! I hear at branch that the party's supporting a party called No2EU. Euroscepticism was always largely monopolised by right - it's always the right of the Tory party, there's the UKIP (who I jocularly refer to as the middle-class wing of the BNP), and there's that boiling-over fruit Kilroy. That and the left should want a united Socialist world.

Plus, I'm no Che, but I think the EU could be crucial to world revolution, because there you would have half of the 1st World able to dismantle the US Empire and develop the 3rd World.

All I'm saying is that they should have thought of a better name.

explain how the eu, a capitalist alliance of capitalist countries promoting a neo liberal capitalist agenda of driving down workers rights and wages, of circumventing the "democracy" of member nation states creating a new european wide armed forces and miltirary industrial monopoly serves in any way shape or form the creation of a european workers state.

[Sam_b]

If you want to play it out in black and white: yes I have but you've conveniently denied it is evidence.


It is no evidence because there is no source, it could have been plucked out of thin air. Its not too difficult to understand, and you'd seriously think that if we were so gung-ho about supporting No2EU or if some members were then there would be at least something on the internet, surely?

Face it - that dubious source is the best you can do. I honestly think you're more interested in trying to discredit SWP members and trying to win ridiculous debates than trying to prove this particular question.

[ls]

It is no evidence because there is no source

The forth international is a source.


it could have been plucked out of thin air.

Now you've lost me.


Its not too difficult to understand, and you'd seriously think that if we were so gung-ho about supporting No2EU or if some members were then there would be at least something on the internet, surely?

Not if some do no.


Face it - that dubious source is the best you can do.

For places on the internet that state what I am saying as of now - yes. I haven't denied that though. What I have denied is that that socialist worker site properly archives every copy of socialist worker as it was, it seems like the SWP edit it to make it look better.


I honestly think you're more interested in trying to discredit SWP members and trying to win ridiculous debates than trying to prove this particular question.

Not at all. I find it extremely interesting how Bobkindles denounced it in the light of 'not giving support' it seems almost to become within the same post an attack on them http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1440436&postcount=11, your post below does not state any kind of position on the other hand, apparently this is the position of the SWP.

Instead of trying to sweep the issue under the carpet, members of the SWP should come out and tell us their opinions on it. You may find you'd be surprised that most do not agree with the general SWP agenda on the issue.

[Sam_b]

The forth international is a source

A source with no evidence. Do you believe that Liverpool fans robbed dead bodies at Hillsborough just because The Sun said so - with no evidence?

There is no 'SWP agenda' on the EU elections wuth regards to No2EU and this has been made perfectly clear to you: we have said that we regard our activity against the BNP as being much more important than getitng into time consuming debates with other leftists about the nature of it. I also think I have been clear when I say that I am against the organisation.

Now as far as i'm concerned unless I see any links with real evidence I consider the matter closed.

[ls]

A source with no evidence.

You believed that Sheridan and the scottish section were supporting it in some way, why not tell me what source you got that from? The SWP rumour mill? Well there's a source for us then.


Do you believe that Liverpool fans robbed dead bodies at Hillsborough just because The Sun said so - with no evidence?

I would say that the Socialist Wanker on most occasions is about as believable/readable as The Sun yes.


There is no 'SWP agenda' on the EU elections wuth regards to No2EU and this has been made perfectly clear to you: we have said that we regard our activity against the BNP as being much more important than getitng into time consuming debates with other leftists about the nature of it.

The good old days of the SWP in anti-fascism are long gone I'm afraid so it probably matters now more than ever. A powerful, grassroots working-class movement will defeat fascism and every other threat.


I also think I have been clear when I say that I am against the organisation.

Ah. So you have a position.


Now as far as i'm concerned unless I see any links with real evidence I consider the matter closed.

Do what you wish, not gonna spend forever trying to convince you of something like this, it's entirely up to you what you believe.

[Sam_b]

You believed that Sheridan and the scottish section were supporting it in some way, why not tell me what source you got that from? The SWP rumour mill? Well there's a source for us then.

And I happily admit that I was wrong!


I would say that the Socialist Wanker on most occasions is about as believable/readable as The Sun yes.

All that does is make you sound like a petty sectarian dick, and doesn't address the main point at all.

But anyway, I still see absolutely no evidence so you're ,as usual, speaking out of your arse. As I said before - i'll believe it when I see proof, which you have failed to provide.

[ls]

Actually you were right http://www.solidarityscotland.org/content/view/644/2/.

This whole conversation is redundant now as we wait for the results to come in, the point is that you're filled with shit

[Andy Bowden]

The SWP do not support No2EU, they were deliberately kept out of it due to their position on the Lindsey strike.

Solidarity in Scotland do back No2EU, and the SWP in Scotland are a part of Solidarity, thats correct - but the reality is that the SWP don't get involved in much of the stuff Solidarity does due to major political differences they have with folk in the organisation.

And one of them is the No2EU issue.

[Sam_b]

http://www.solidarityscotland.org/content/view/644/2/

Erm....so what? We already knew that Solidarity was promoting and participating in No2EU, which is why Tommy Sheridan is one of their candidates. But still this page, or the whole Solidarity websites mentions not one thing about the SWP's supposed involvement with the project!

So, maybe for the nth time i'll ask again - do you have anything to prove we have been supporting it? We're a pretty big organisation compared to some others, yet you have absolutely no empirical evidence?


the point is that you're filled with shit

Just because you're getting worked up that you can't prove a thing doesn't mean you have to throw stuff around like this. Please try and keep it civil. Saying that I am 'filled with shit' doesn't compensate for a valid argument, which I don't think you have.

[Revy]

I read one of the [pro-No2EU] letters to the Weekly Worker.

While it correctly criticized CPGB's endorsement of Labour, it called CPGB's support for open borders a "shibboleth" and a "vote loser".

You see, No2EU isn't doing anything out of principle, they are politicians, they are even afraid to use the language of anti-capitalism, in favor of "bosses" or "big business". POPULISM should never supersede socialism if a campaign is supported and built mainly by self-described socialists, that is the truly horrific thing about No2EU, it is creating an even more empty vacuum in left politics, by going to the right, to attract the right.

We all know that the place for "Euroskeptics who oppose the BNP" is not going to be No2EU, but UKIP. Therefore their strategy is not going to make a damn bit of difference, because they look just like the UKIP, why would anyone vote No2EU over UKIP if their main issue was Europe? And like UKIP, No2EU endorses reactionary views on immigration.

[Killfacer]

i wonder how badly they've failed in the euros.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You see, No2EU isn't doing anything out of principle, they are politicians, they are even afraid to use the language of anti-capitalism, in favor of "bosses" or "big business". POPULISM should never supersede socialism if a campaign is supported and built mainly by self-described socialists, that is the truly horrific thing about No2EU, it is creating an even more empty vacuum in left politics, by going to the right, to attract the right.

Oskar Lafontaine should air his justifiable ignorance of the sham that is No2EU. I mean, he did say that "we want to overthrow capitalism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/die-linkes-oskar-t108987/index.html)." :D

[redarmyfaction38]

i wonder how badly they've failed in the euros.
according to the morning star the bnp vote has fallen in areas of the north west where no2euro has campaigned hardest.
now, no2euro, isn't a political party, it could be the basis of building one.
it's main aim was to give ordinary working class voters an alternative "protest vote", rather than vote bnp, which is what a lot of them have been doing.
if the morning star is correct, then no2euro has succeeded.
at the same time it will have opened the eyes of many workers who think the bnp is an alternative, some of the reported confrontations between the bnp and no2euro campaigners on the streets have ended with violence, intimidation, racist slogans and nazi salutes from bnp supporters, the bnp have also been shown to be totally reliant on the police when their violence and intimidation has provoked a response.
seeing it for yourself, whilst you're out shopping, is worth tons of patient explaining from any comrade.

[redarmyfaction38]

The SWP do not support No2EU, they were deliberately kept out of it due to their position on the Lindsey strike.

Solidarity in Scotland do back No2EU, and the SWP in Scotland are a part of Solidarity, thats correct - but the reality is that the SWP don't get involved in much of the stuff Solidarity does due to major political differences they have with folk in the organisation.

And one of them is the No2EU issue.

the main political difference the swp has with any other group of socialists is that the swp want to be in charge and the rest of us don't want them to be.:D

[Killfacer]

according to the morning star the bnp vote has fallen in areas of the north west where no2euro has campaigned hardest.
now, no2euro, isn't a political party, it could be the basis of building one.
it's main aim was to give ordinary working class voters an alternative "protest vote", rather than vote bnp, which is what a lot of them have been doing.
if the morning star is correct, then no2euro has succeeded.
at the same time it will have opened the eyes of many workers who think the bnp is an alternative, some of the reported confrontations between the bnp and no2euro campaigners on the streets have ended with violence, intimidation, racist slogans and nazi salutes from bnp supporters, the bnp have also been shown to be totally reliant on the police when their violence and intimidation has provoked a response.
seeing it for yourself, whilst you're out shopping, is worth tons of patient explaining from any comrade.

I wasn't aware that their sole objective was lowering the BNP's vote.

[redarmyfaction38]

I wasn't aware that their sole objective was lowering the BNP's vote.
it wasn't their "sole objective", just a primary one.
everything else that might be achieved was dependant on "success" on that level.
hence the "basis" of a potential new workers party etc.....
nothing is certain, all, any of us do, is try and create organisations based in the working class that will lead to the overthrow of capitalism etc.
it isn't a board game, there are no guaranteed results if you throw a six or whatever, you don't get extra turns.

[Killfacer]

it wasn't their "sole objective", just a primary one.
everything else that might be achieved was dependant on "success" on that level.
hence the "basis" of a potential new workers party etc.....
nothing is certain, all, any of us do, is try and create organisations based in the working class that will lead to the overthrow of capitalism etc.
it isn't a board game, there are no guaranteed results if you throw a six or whatever, you don't get extra turns.

It wasn't their objective. They're gonna fail. I guarentee you they will get woeful results in the polls. I don't think a BNP underpeformance (if it could be called such) can really mask no2eu's glaring failings.

[h0m0revolutionary]

it wasn't their "sole objective", just a primary one..

Proof please?

and is this is the case, why are the RMT, Bob Crow and his cohorts already tlaking of setting up a new workers party based around the No2EU 'initiative' (for lack of a better word)?.

[redarmyfaction38]

It wasn't their objective. They're gonna fail. I guarentee you they will get woeful results in the polls. I don't think a BNP underpeformance (if it could be called such) can really mask no2eu's glaring failings.
haven't seen the results yet.
the "glaring failings"?
what are they really?
much of what has been posted in criticism of no2euro has come from revolutionary socialists assuming no2euro was a revolutionary alternative, it's not and hasn't pretended to be.
its policies and approach were clearly embedded in the level of political consciousness of the british working class at this time.
it stood for election in a bourgeouise election, it tried to cut across the nationalist attitudes of many disaffected workers by presenting an alternative that proposed the levelling up of workers conditions of employment rather than the race to the bottom of the capitalist european union.
"british jobs for british workers" was not at any stage a reflection of the attitude of any of the participating groups or trade unions, early in the lindsey strike, there were banners reflecting that attitude that were quickly seized upon by the bnp and the media, those attitudes quickly dissolved amongst workers during the process of struggle.
in the end italian trade unions were supporting the strikes, immigrant polish workers walked out in support of their english/janner comrades in the south west.
that's what really happened.
what's your problem?

[redarmyfaction38]

Proof please?

and is this is the case, why are the RMT, Bob Crow and his cohorts already tlaking of setting up a new workers party based around the No2EU 'initiative' (for lack of a better word)?.
again, what's your problem?
bob crow an his cohorts want to build a party that presents an alternative to the bnp and new labour that ordinary workers might feel they can join and vote for.
they have tested the ground with the no2euro alliance, it has given them the confidence to try and build a radical alternative based in the working class.
given the consciousness of the british working class today as opposed to its consciousness in the 70s and early 80s, the building of a parliamentary party opposed to capitalism is a massive step forward.

[Pogue]

given the consciousness of the british working class today as opposed to its consciousness in the 70s and early 80s, the building of a parliamentary party opposed to capitalism is a massive step forward.

In what way is channelling the hopes of the radical working class into dead end bourgeoisie politics evidence of a 'massive step forward'? We've been down that road before, it was called the Labour Party.

[redarmyfaction38]

In what way is channelling the hopes of the radical working class into dead end bourgeoisie politics evidence of a 'massive step forward'? We've been down that road before, it was called the Labour Party.
what radical working class?
the majority of workers, despite their contempt for parliamentary politics, despite their contempt for trade union leaders tied to new labour are still tied to the concept of parliamentary democracy.
simple ideas like workers reps on workers wages, the right of recall, protection from the consequences of capitalist economic collapse, putting the interest of british or other european workers above the interest of the multi national banks and international companies strikes a chord.
in the first instance you build a radical reformist party, in the second instance you take the most radical members and build a revolutionary party.
classic marxism/trotskyism/leninism.
it's not hard really.

[redarmyfaction38]

what radical working class?
the majority of workers, despite their contempt for parliamentary politics, despite their contempt for trade union leaders tied to new labour are still tied to the concept of parliamentary democracy.
simple ideas like workers reps on workers wages, the right of recall, protection from the consequences of capitalist economic collapse, putting the interest of british or other european workers above the interest of the multi national banks and international companies strikes a chord.
in the first instance you build a radical reformist party, in the second instance you take the most radical members and build a revolutionary party.
classic marxism/trotskyism/leninism.
it's not hard really.
btw, the vote for the bnp has fallen, yet it still managed to gain its first euro mp.
do you suggest we should abaNDON THE struggle for a new workers party on this basis? parliamentary and reformist politics obviously don't serve the working class, a party like the bnp gets elected representatives.
lets just walk away from it cos it doesn't conform to our analysis or political ambition.
mmmm, how much like our capitalist enemies do you want to sound?
lets just run roughshod over the general public and impose our ideology, much better than all these tiresome arguments about freedom and democracy...........
good old uncle joe stalin knew how to deal with dissent, star trials and an ice pick for leon trotsky.

[Q]

What were the results for No2EU?

[Killfacer]

haven't seen the results yet.
the "glaring failings"?
what are they really?
much of what has been posted in criticism of no2euro has come from revolutionary socialists assuming no2euro was a revolutionary alternative, it's not and hasn't pretended to be.
its policies and approach were clearly embedded in the level of political consciousness of the british working class at this time.
it stood for election in a bourgeouise election, it tried to cut across the nationalist attitudes of many disaffected workers by presenting an alternative that proposed the levelling up of workers conditions of employment rather than the race to the bottom of the capitalist european union.
"british jobs for british workers" was not at any stage a reflection of the attitude of any of the participating groups or trade unions, early in the lindsey strike, there were banners reflecting that attitude that were quickly seized upon by the bnp and the media, those attitudes quickly dissolved amongst workers during the process of struggle.
in the end italian trade unions were supporting the strikes, immigrant polish workers walked out in support of their english/janner comrades in the south west.
that's what really happened.
what's your problem?

My problem is that they're crap, campaigned on stupid issues and have strangely nationalist sentiments. Probably in a cheap attempt to get votes.

[ls]

They got beaten quite a few times by the Socialist Labour Party, it has sucked pretty badly for them. :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_999999.stm


No2EU 75,352 1.1
(+1.1) 0

They aren't announcing the NW results (te place where the BNP are most likely to win big) until tomorrow now thanks to computer fuckups.

[Killfacer]

I'm kind of glad of the fuck up, ignorance is bliss after all.

[Q]

They got beaten quite a few times by the Socialist Labour Party, it has sucked pretty badly for them. :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_999999.stm



They aren't announcing the NW results (te place where the BNP are most likely to win big) until tomorrow now thanks to computer fuckups.
Looks like they needed an extra 50k votes. A shame.

Also, who is Plaid Cymru?

[ls]

Party of Wales, they stand only in Wales and are pretty much social-democrats.

[Zurdito]

its policies and approach were clearly embedded in the level of political consciousness of the british working class at this time.

I'm not in Britain and don't claim to be an expert on the level of consciousness of the ritish working class, but I would think that if this was true then NO2EU would have won more than 1% of the vote and finished higher than 11th.:confused:

[BobKKKindle$]

I'm not in Britain and don't claim to be an expert on the level of consciousness of the ritish working class, but I would think that if this was true then NO2EU would have won more than 1% of the vote and finished higher than 11th.:confused:

We should also keep in mind that NO2EU was not a product of mobilization from below. If workers at an RMT conference had called for an electoral alliance involving the CPB and the SP then it might have had more potential and the politics might have been a bit more progressive, but unfortunately this wasn't a bottom-up initiative - it was something that was created by RMT bureaucrats and their old mates in the CPB, with the SP tagging along because of its Campaign for a NWP. This seems to be a major problem with the SP - they don't acknowledge the bureaucratic structures of the trade-union movement and the constraints that bureaucrats can impose on struggle.

[Pogue]

We should also keep in mind that NO2EU was not a product of mobilization from below. If workers at an RMT conference had called for an electoral alliance involving the CPB and the SP then it might have had more potential and the politics might have been a bit more progressive, but unfortunately this wasn't a bottom-up initiative - it was something that was created by RMT bureaucrats and their old mates in the CPB, with the SP tagging along because of its Campaign for a NWP. This seems to be a major problem with the SP - they don't acknowledge the bureaucratic structures of the trade-union movement and the constraints that bureaucrats can impose on struggle.

In fairness, I can see alot more wrong in calling for a vote for New Labour in 1997 from an ideological and tactical point of view than I can from joining a initiative of the RMT and CPB.

[redarmyfaction38]

What were the results for No2EU?
about 150,000 votes.
not bad for a bunch of nobodies the media ignored., socialist labour party got about 170,000, ssp 10,000.....

[Zurdito]

In fairness, I can see alot more wrong in calling for a vote for New Labour in 1997 from an ideological and tactical point of view than I can from joining a initiative of the RMT and CPB.

yes but can we keep it on topic instead of making every thtread about resentment against the SWP?

it makes the British left look a little ridiculous.

[redarmyfaction38]

My problem is that they're crap, campaigned on stupid issues and have strangely nationalist sentiments. Probably in a cheap attempt to get votes.
nationalist sentiments? says who? you?
there is nothing nationalist about demanding all workers are employed on the conditions of employment won by the national trade unions in the country of employment.
to think otherwise shows the kind of thinking the bnp and daily telegraph indulge in, looking to divide workers, rather than unite them.
what else??????
oh yeh, the "anarchists" decided voting for the capitalist greens was a better option than voting for ANY kind of "socialist" alternative.
whose side are they on?
maybe trotsky was right on the one point i've always had doubts about, anarchists are fucking capitalists and we should shoot them like pigeons.

[Pogue]

yes but can we keep it on topic instead of making every thtread about resentment against the SWP?

it makes the British left look a little ridiculous.

Probably because it is.

[Killfacer]

yes but can we keep it on topic instead of making every thtread about resentment against the SWP?

it makes the British left look a little ridiculous.

The british left are ridiculous, so i fail to see the problem.

[Pogue]

oh yeh, the "anarchists" decided voting for the capitalist greens was a better option than voting for ANY kind of "socialist" alternative.
whose side are they on?

Yeh man, it was really dum of us to hold that meeting in which we all unanimously declared our support for the Greens. Dam, why did we do that?

[Forward Union]

I'd vote for it if it changed it's name from no2eu yes to Bob Crow.

I want to see Bob crow in Europe.

[Forward Union]

oh yeh, the "anarchists" decided voting for the capitalist greens was a better option than voting for ANY kind of "socialist" alternative.
whose side are they on?

Evidently the side of the "greens" who I wholeheartedly support.


maybe trotsky was right on the one point i've always had doubts about, anarchists are fucking capitalists and we should shoot them like pigeons.Yea, I remember the famous trotsky quote where he called Anarchists Capitalists.

But I don't think that's fair, I don't own that many factories, and I vote green now anyway. That said, as a true anarchist I'd be well up for fighting for my boss and crushing all examples of workers power, unlike that Trotsky character who defended workers power to the last bullet. Those "Anarchists" who died fighting for the hour working day were such ****s.

[ls]

oh yeh, the "anarchists" decided voting for the capitalist greens was a better option than voting for ANY kind of "socialist" alternative.

Oh dear, someone infiltrated the anarchist conference. :rolleyes:


whose side are they on?

The pigeons duh..


maybe trotsky was right on the one point i've always had doubts about, anarchists are fucking capitalists and we should shoot them like pigeons.

Most Trots on this thread are much smarter than you and would probably join us in taking a massive dump from a great height on your head. :D

[Forward Union]

We should also keep in mind that NO2EU was not a product of mobilization from below. If workers at an RMT conference had called for an electoral alliance involving the CPB and the SP then it might have had more potential and the politics might have been a bit more progressive, but unfortunately this wasn't a bottom-up initiative - it was something that was created by RMT bureaucrats and their old mates in the CPB, with the SP tagging along because of its Campaign for a NWP. This seems to be a major problem with the SP - they don't acknowledge the bureaucratic structures of the trade-union movement and the constraints that bureaucrats can impose on struggle.

Yea I'm so glad the SWP is there fighting ruthlessly against Union bureaucracy.

[Zurdito]

Probably because it is.

do you include yourself in that?

[Forward Union]

do you include yourself in that?

What a genius reply. You've totally forced HLVS into a corner. Either he admits he's a joke, or he admits he was wrong.

haha you're so brilliant. You certainly havent taken his comments too literally

[Zurdito]

What a genius reply. You've totally forced HLVS into a corner. Either he admits he's a joke, or he admits he was wrong.

haha you're so brilliant. You certainly havent taken his comments too literally

someone got out on the wrong side of bed today?

do you resemble the comic book guy from the simpsons in real life, or only online? :p

[redarmyfaction38]

We should also keep in mind that NO2EU was not a product of mobilization from below. If workers at an RMT conference had called for an electoral alliance involving the CPB and the SP then it might have had more potential and the politics might have been a bit more progressive, but unfortunately this wasn't a bottom-up initiative - it was something that was created by RMT bureaucrats and their old mates in the CPB, with the SP tagging along because of its Campaign for a NWP. This seems to be a major problem with the SP - they don't acknowledge the bureaucratic structures of the trade-union movement and the constraints that bureaucrats can impose on struggle.
that is total bullshit, the sp is fully aware of the bureaucratic structuers of the trade union movement, they have leading comrades subject to expulsion from unison for a start, they have supported swp members that are or were under attack from the new labour bureaucrocy of the trade unions.
they have even published in their paper the response of cpb when asked to support those comrades both swp and sp subject to political attack from union bureaucracy.
if their is a "sectarian" response on here, it's coming from you.
all any comrade in the sp has to do to gain support for a fellow socialist, regardless of which socialist party he belongs to, is talk to the party, explain their position and the sp will join the comrade in support of that colleague.
the swp leadership are full of shit, the cpb leadership are full of shit, their members tend to be good honest comrades and need our support and friendship.

[Forward Union]

someone got out on the wrong side of bed today?

do you resemble the comic book guy from the simpsons in real life, or only online? :p

Sorry I just saw an oppertunity for a bitter and hard hitting post and took it :cool:

[redarmyfaction38]

They got beaten quite a few times by the Socialist Labour Party, it has sucked pretty badly for them. :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_999999.stm



They aren't announcing the NW results (te place where the BNP are most likely to win big) until tomorrow now thanks to computer fuckups.
there's nothing wrong with getting beaten by the socialist labour party!

[ls]

Hopefully that was sarcasm, if not please elaborate.. :cool:

[redarmyfaction38]

Hopefully that was sarcasm, if not please elaborate.. :cool:
people saw socialist and voted for it.
maybe a longing for the "old days" before tony blair and maggie thatcher, "king arthur" scargill still holds a place in the heart of the british proletariat.
a fighter, a class fighter unlike the wimps that now present themselves as socialists or "revolutionaries".
i'm being a bitter old man now, pissed off with "purists" and the "politcally aware".
pissed off with "theoretical differences" when there is a world to be won, all is needed is a bit of steel and total commitment to the cause, capitalism is in meltdown, it doesn't require a push to destroy it, a nudge will finish it off.
and we're arguing about what? ffs!
history is calling you......

[ls]

people saw socialist and voted for it.

That's a possibility.


maybe a longing for the "old days" before tony blair and maggie thatcher, "king arthur" scargill still holds a place in the heart of the british proletariat.

But they were still not good enough, it has led to the problems we face now - the corrupt bureaucrats in the labour party saw to that and so did thatcher.


a fighter, a class fighter unlike the wimps that now present themselves as socialists or "revolutionaries".

Only to an extent, the SLP are not going in the right direction.


i'm being a bitter old man now, pissed off with "purists" and the "politcally aware".

Fair enough, but the SLP are not the answer.


pissed off with "theoretical differences" when there is a world to be won, all is needed is a bit of steel and total commitment to the cause, capitalism is in meltdown, it doesn't require a push to destroy it, a nudge will finish it off.
and we're arguing about what? ffs!
history is calling you......

Organising under clear-cut reformism will not 'finish it off', I promise you, I can to an extent support some people voting for the Socialist Party -GB or no2eu, but the SLP are not right at all and completely asking for reformist policies, whether Scargill is part of it or not. Perhaps if he lent his support to no2eu and helped them get their tone right we could work together towards something better?

[Zurdito]

Sorry I just saw an oppertunity for a bitter and hard hitting post and took it :cool:

you got bitter right. As for hard-hitting:

http://croutonboy.typepad.com/photos/people_i_hate/scrappy.jpg

[redarmyfaction38]

That's a possibility.



But they were still not good enough, it has led to the problems we face now - the corrupt bureaucrats in the labour party saw to that and so did thatcher.



Only to an extent, the SLP are not going in the right direction.



Fair enough, but the SLP are not the answer.



Organising under clear-cut reformism will not 'finish it off', I promise you, I can to an extent support some people voting for the Socialist Party -GB or no2eu, but the SLP are not right at all and completely asking for reformist policies, whether Scargill is part of it or not. Perhaps if he lent his support to no2eu and helped them get their tone right we could work together towards something better?

you are quite right, i know this, like i said, i was being old, bitter and looking at the past through beer tinted spectacles.
i should practice what i preach and look to the future.:o

[Pogue]

So should I announce the call for all of us damned anarchos to hide in the bunker because redarmyfaction38 is gonna come fulfill old Leon's wishes and shoot us all down for being capitalists?

:laugh: Aren't you the same guy who told us about how you went paki bashing in the 70s?

[redarmyfaction38]

So should I announce the call for all of us damned anarchos to hide in the bunker because redarmyfaction38 is gonna come fulfill old Leon's wishes and shoot us all down for being capitalists?

:laugh: Aren't you the same guy who told us about how you went paki bashing in the 70s?

you live and learn mate.

i've lived, i've learnt, i've fought and fainted at the thought, i've been committed, disinterested and just couldn't be bothered.
i've got lots of of "anarcho" mates, it's really not about "shooting them like pigeons" at all, but, there is a feeling they give you that they are more interested in themselves than any kind of common interest.
BUT, i'm sure you could say the same about me.
what is it you want me to say?
life and experience, attitudes and education don't fit into little boxes, we all get to the position we hold on our own.
our position is based mostly on personal experience, this personal experience is based in the social class we grew up in.
on this, i'm not typical, i'm working class, brought up working class from a working class family, the majority of whom were solid labour voters, my family, my dad, my step dad and mother were all working class tories.
self reliance, a scholarship to a private school, the experience of the attitudes displayed to "ordinary working class children" like myself.
trust a fucking anarchist?
not gonna happen mate!
i've lived with the middle class fuckers!
my dad didn't buy me an i pod, oh god! i really hate capitalism and my eyeliner is running so much i can't see mtv.
an emo moment!
sarcasm really is the best form of wit :D

[Pogue]

you live and learn mate.

i've lived, i've learnt, i've fought and fainted at the thought, i've been committed, disinterested and just couldn't be bothered.
i've got lots of of "anarcho" mates, it's really not about "shooting them like pigeons" at all, but, there is a feeling they give you that they are more interested in themselves than any kind of common interest.
BUT, i'm sure you could say the same about me.
what is it you want me to say?
life and experience, attitudes and education don't fit into little boxes, we all get to the position we hold on our own.
our position is based mostly on personal experience, this personal experience is based in the social class we grew up in.
on this, i'm not typical, i'm working class, brought up working class from a working class family, the majority of whom were solid labour voters, my family, my dad, my step dad and mother were all working class tories.
self reliance, a scholarship to a private school, the experience of the attitudes displayed to "ordinary working class children" like myself.
trust a fucking anarchist?
not gonna happen mate!
i've lived with the middle class fuckers!
my dad didn't buy me an i pod, oh god! i really hate capitalism and my eyeliner is running so much i can't see mtv.
an emo moment!
sarcasm really is the best form of wit :D

Still, it comes down to your predjudiced and ignorant view of the world and us in particular, and the assumptions you like to make.

It's funny, you say you can't trust us, the sorts of people who were out with Trots fighting the fascists while you were out paki bashing because 'its what working class kids did'. No it fucking wasn't, its what racist working class kids did, the real working class kids went out against the fascists.

I don't trust you for one minute. You were a racist class traitor scumbag in your youth, and now you slag us off, anarchists, the people who have consistently fought against fascism alongside, yes, Trots and what not, because apparently we're middle class and wear eyeliner. I don't really think an ex-fascist such as yourself is really in a position to say whether or not anti-fascists can be trusted, and if I were you I'd be less of a mouthy internet warrior ****.

I'd never trust someone who was apparently left wing but thought paki bashing was fine, and refuses to admit he was wrong about it.

[Sam_b]

i've lived with the middle class fuckers!
my dad didn't buy me an i pod, oh god! i really hate capitalism and my eyeliner is running so much i can't see mtv.
an emo moment!
sarcasm really is the best form of wit

As much as I have a disliking for H-L-V-S and his so called 'anarchist ilk', grow the fuck up eh?

[Forward Union]

you live and learn mate.

i've lived, i've learnt, i've fought and fainted at the thought, i've been committed, disinterested and just couldn't be bothered.
i've got lots of of "anarcho" mates, it's really not about "shooting them like pigeons" at all, but, there is a feeling they give you that they are more interested in themselves than any kind of common interest.

Yes and to be honest with you I get the same impression from most of what passes as the Anarchist movement. That's not sufficient to form general criticisms of the Anarchist movement. I can think of far more than the rather insignificant one you have provided.


our position is based mostly on personal experience, this personal experience is based in the social class we grew up in.Ah so we've gone for the "im working class and hard so i win the argument" line. Well fuck off mate, my dad was a factory worker and my mum isa school cook. I worked in a hospital for a year and a half to get some funds together to study and I intend to join the fire brigade when I leave. I've had 5 years of community organisign experience.

Don't go down this route of debate it lowers the entire quality of the thread.



i've lived with the middle class fuckers!Go and fuck yourself. In my experience the SWP has a much higher level of middle class participation than any class-struggle Anarchist org. I will say there are things that pass for anarchist like "vegan cafes" or other hippy projects. But that's a brutal misuse of the word.

[Zurdito]

Go and fuck yourself. In my experience the SWP has a much higher level of middle class participation than any class-struggle Anarchist org.

this may be true, but the SWP at least has some influence and roots in the working class (which it misuses), in the most advanced and organized sectors (who it sells class conciliatory politics to), which is more than can be said for anarchism anywhere in the world AFAIK. In my experienced the most degenerate and middle class far left parties have more weight in the organized working class than anarchism.

Also RAF supports the SP not the SWP.

[redarmyfaction38]

As much as I have a disliking for H-L-V-S and his so called 'anarchist ilk', grow the fuck up eh?
so i'm not allowed to have a bit of fun with the anarchists?
there was a big grinny thing to let them know i was just taking the wee.

[redarmyfaction38]

Yes and to be honest with you I get the same impression from most of what passes as the Anarchist movement. That's not sufficient to form general criticisms of the Anarchist movement. I can think of far more than the rather insignificant one you have provided.

Ah so we've gone for the "im working class and hard so i win the argument" line. Well fuck off mate, my dad was a factory worker and my mum isa school cook. I worked in a hospital for a year and a half to get some funds together to study and I intend to join the fire brigade when I leave. I've had 5 years of community organisign experience.

Don't go down this route of debate it lowers the entire quality of the thread.

Go and fuck yourself. In my experience the SWP has a much higher level of middle class participation than any class-struggle Anarchist org. I will say there are things that pass for anarchist like "vegan cafes" or other hippy projects. But that's a brutal misuse of the word.

interesting interpretation of my post, i am working class, i can be "hard" if i have to but at no point did i say it made me right.
in fact i made it quite clear my experience was not typical.
it was not my intention to launch a personal attack on you or anybody else, i was talking generalities and peoples personal experiences leading them along different paths to the same or similar conclusions.
i wish you every success in your personal life.
just as a point of interest, there was no anl or anti racist mass organisation when i was being an idiot, the trade unions themselves had largely racist attitudes as did the labour party and communist party and working class communities, wonder where i got mine from? (not making excuses, i should have known better).
it is to the everlasting credit of international socialist organisations like the old swp that they managed to cut across all this institutional racism in the workers organisations and create the anl, not to mention the work done in those "traditional" working class communities.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

there's nothing wrong with getting beaten by the socialist labour party!
But they don't have any members! Do you seriously not see a problem when a party with no members is getting more votes than you?

people saw socialist and voted for it.
People (some people, not many, but a few) saw socialist and voted for it. People saw what looked like a second-rate UKIP knockoff, and ran a mile. What can we learn from this?

[Holden Caulfield]

But they don't have any members! Do you seriously not see a problem when a party with no members is getting more votes than you?
no2eu has no members

[The Ungovernable Farce]

no2eu has no members
Yeah, but the SP, CPB and RMT presumably have activists. One would think.

[Holden Caulfield]

Yeah, but the SP, CPB and RMT presumably have activists. One would think.

yeah I was being pedantic, sorry. :lol:

[redarmyfaction38]

But they don't have any members! Do you seriously not see a problem when a party with no members is getting more votes than you?

People (some people, not many, but a few) saw socialist and voted for it. People saw what looked like a second-rate UKIP knockoff, and ran a mile. What can we learn from this?

we can learn that the slp has been around a lot longer than the 3 to six months no2euro has, also i asked my grown up son who he voted for, he's a member of the rmt and was asked to vote no2euro by his union, he voted slp, why? arthur scargill, the miners strike, the amount of effort the likes of his father put in for arthur scargill, it was a party he knew through its leader, and had a history he'd indirectly been part of rather than a party he'd been told to vote for as he put it.