North Korea will "pay"

[Communist Theory]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8068619.stm
I think this is bullshit.
I mean they have a good fucking reason to have a nuke I mean half the western world seems to want to knock down their door and say "Well these Commie bastards had it coming I mean who can resist coca-cola?" If I was Kim Jung-Il I would want some damn nukes to make sure that didn't happen.
And please I don't wanna read "Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people are starving?!" that's about as true as the claim that Cuba is oppressed and half their people are political prisoners. The only political prisoners in Cuba are in Gitmo.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I would have to say that North Korea itself isn't the problem, but their leadership. It has degraded into a bureaucratic state which I can't say is exactly making the best decisions for their people. Also, probably part of the reason North Korea's economy is suffering is because of the fact that they're isolated. I doubt very many countries would be like "Ohh...let's help out the Communist Scum, North Korea." The west didn't help out the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War(except for a few exceptions where they tried to send economic aid, but it was rejected). I see this as a similar situation. I just can't picture the west trying to help out a nation which has a government that's the ideologically opposite. About the Nukes, I think they're developing them out of fear of a western invasion. It almost seems possible since the CIA once attempted to overthrow Fidel Castro in Cuba.

[Revy]

Seoul announced early on Tuesday that it would delay no longer in joining the PSI - a US-led non-proliferation campaign involving searching ships carrying suspect cargo, aimed at stopping the trafficking of weapons of mass destruction.

North Korea has repeatedly warned that the South's participation in the PSI would be tantamount to a declaration of war.

Then again, North Korea seems to say that everything is a "declaration of war". It's not clear they would actually go to war over it. It's often said they are still "technically at war", so it's no surprise that the "six party talks" consist of the major belligerents in the Korean War, such as the US, Russia, China, North Korea and South Korea, with Japan which while not a major belligerent (due to new post-WWII rules) was still involved.

It is ironic that the US would be leading a "non-proliferation" campaign, but we have never been able to expect consistency from US imperialist policies...

North Korea's regime deserves loud condemnation, for its dictatorship, not the fact that it has a nuclear deterrent. But North Korea is not going to attack another country first, and if it does, well, they can expect to get attacked back. North Korea does not have many trustworthy allies, it would be foolish of them, which is why I don't expect it to happen.

[LOLseph Stalin]

It's often said they are still "technically at war",

They are. There were no official treaties signed stating that the Korean War was over. It was just a ceasefire. Because of this, North Koreans have a mentality to always be armed and ready for war. It could be another reason to explain the nuclear weapons.

[communard resolution]

The Western 'outrage' at the nuclear test is so hypocritical it's sickening. First thing I saw in the paper this morning was "the explosion was as strong as that of Hirosmima, which killed such and such an amount of people". Well, WHO FUCKING DROPPED THAT BOMB ON HIROSHIMA? Not North Korea, was it?

That said, the test was an incredibly stupid and unecessary thing of the Dear Leader to do. As if the sanctions imposed upon NK two years ago weren't enough. Now there's going to be even more sanctions. I feel sorry for the people of North Korea. I hope they overthrow the Dear Leader before the US invade.

[Martin Blank]

They are. There were no official treaties signed stating that the Korean War was over. It was just a ceasefire. Because of this, North Koreans have a mentality to always be armed and ready for war. It could be another reason to explain the nuclear weapons.

I have a bad feeling about this whole situation. I mean, the launch of N. Korea's new missiles and underground nuclear tests are only part of the equation.

Apparently, last Friday, the president of S. Korea committed suicide (?!). And now the new president in Seoul, who is more conservative, is announcing that it is signing on to a military action, led by the U.S., that would break the 56-year truce between the two belligerents and will put an end to the "sunshine" policy that has dominated North-South relations in the last decade.

I really don't like where this is going. Unless someone backs down, this could get really ugly.

[LOLseph Stalin]

That said, the test was an incredibly stupid and unecessary thing of the Dear Leader to do. As if the sanctions imposed upon NK two years ago weren't enough. Now there's going to be even more sanctions. I feel sorry for the people of North Korea. I hope they overthrow the Dear Leader before the US invade.

I fully agree. This could easily get North Korea with more sactions placed on it. Obama condemns the weapon testing. I'm not sure what his response will be, but more sactions would mean the people suffer more. However I don't think overthrowing the leader would make much difference if there's sactions. I doubt the countries placing sanctions would think any differently about NK as long as it's a Socialist state. The west hates Communism as we all know.

[professorchaos]

Apparently, last Friday, the president of S. Korea committed suicide (?!).
Former president.

[Vincent P.]

And please I don't wanna read "Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people are starving?!" that's about as true as the claim that Cuba is oppressed and half their people are political prisoners. The only political prisoners in Cuba are in Gitmo.

Yeah yeah. Ever had a free trip to NK? Fuck no. You're accompaniated by guides 24/24, and no foreign journalist are allowed. Either Juche is advocating timidity, or NK has a lot to hide.

Ever saw NK tv? Have a try on youtube. They're so controlled it's funny.

And last but not least: the economic situation. Although I'm no a techno-affictionado this picture speaks for itself. This is North Korea, North East China and South Korea at night. North Korea is the dark part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg


Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people don't even have widespread electricity?!"

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yeah yeah. Ever had a free trip to NK? Fuck no. You're accompaniated by guides 24/24, and no foreign journalist are allowed. Either Juche is advocating timidity, or NK has a lot to hide.


I think I'll have to say they have alot to hide and they're probably ashamed because of their bad economic conditions. I'm not doubting that there could be widespread hunger. They also don't want western influence so they need some way to control this.

[Communist Theory]

They turn off all electricity at night.
That being said I fully advocate the nuclear testing and launching of missles by the DPRK.
They shouldn't have to be the most isolated country in the world and not have some form of deterrent for the imperialist American military.

[LOLseph Stalin]

They turn off all electricity at night.

Probably to save it as they seem to have so little of it. This could be another result of the sanctions.

[mykittyhasaboner]

^Coal shortages, and damage to hydroelectric power stations during the floods attribute to the lack of electric power.

[Communist Theory]

Yeah to conserve it and I think to keep things hidden I believe.

[Das war einmal]

Probably to save it as they seem to have so little of it. This could be another result of the sanctions.


Atleast its good for the environment :D

[Das war einmal]

North Korea's regime deserves loud condemnation, for its dictatorship, not the fact that it has a nuclear deterrent. But North Korea is not going to attack another country first, and if it does, well, they can expect to get attacked back. North Korea does not have many trustworthy allies, it would be foolish of them, which is why I don't expect it to happen.

What country then, has the moral high ground to judge North Korea? Atleast the DPRK minds their own fucking business

[LOLseph Stalin]

Atleast its good for the environment http://www.revleft.com/vb/north-korea-pay-t109786/revleft/smilies/biggrin.gif

They don't have many vehicles either so you could even say they're one of the greenest nations. The sad thing is that they're probably not even trying to be.

[Communist Theory]

Trots always look at the bad sides of leaders of Communist Countries.
:(

[Das war einmal]

They don't have many vehicles either so you could even say they're one of the greenest nations. The sad thing is that they're probably not even trying to be.

Dont try, just DO it! I dont think the nuclear testing is good for the environment though...

[Vincent P.]

They turn off all electricity at night..
Not everywhere it seems, as there is light in Pyongyang. But if this is the "official" reason, I'm twice as doubtful.


They shouldn't have to be the most isolated country in the world and not have some form of deterrent for the imperialist American military.

They are willingly isolated dear, thanks to Juche. Cuba has been playing its leninist comedy 100 km from the US coast for 50 years and it never needed nukes.

[Hiero]

Does the US still have nuclear subs in South Korea?

That was a big part of the DPRK developing nuclear weopons. Basically the whole nuclear free Korea i a joke because of the military capabilities of the US.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I dont think the nuclear testing is good for the environment though...

It's not. Anything resulting from Radioactive substances leaves behind waste for millions of years. Disposing this residue has always been a problem for many countries.


Not everywhere it seems, as there is light in Pyongyang. But if this is the "official" reason, I'm twice as doubtful.

The government buildings probably have electricity all the time.

[Das war einmal]

Not everywhere it seems, as there is light in Pyongyang. But if this is the "official" reason, I'm twice as doubtful.



They are willingly isolated dear, thanks to Juche. Cuba has been playing its leninist comedy 100 km from the US coast for 50 years and it never needed nukes.


To be frank, Cuba has been isolated for years too, only the last few years they have gotten new trading partners. When the USSR still existed and China was less revisionist as it is now, North Korea was also trading with them as much as the other socialist countries.

[Communist Theory]

The tests were conducted about 3 miles underground. More then good enough to stop radiation from reaching the surface.

[Das war einmal]

It's not. Anything resulting from Radioactive substances leaves behind waste for millions of years. Disposing this residue has always been a problem for many countries.
Thats what is bothering me the most, all the rest of this is just a big show.

[Vincent P.]

To be frank, Cuba has been isolated for years too, only the last few years they have gotten new trading partners. When the USSR still existed and China was less revisionist as it is now, North Korea was also trading with them as much as the other socialist countries.

Cuban isolation came from the outside, not the inside. Big difference.

[LOLseph Stalin]

When the USSR still existed and China was less revisionist as it is now, North Korea was also trading with them as much as the other socialist countries.

Yes, that's part of the problem. Since we no longer have a Communist superpower, NK kinda lost all support. They're desperate, but making enemies with everybody else of course doesn't help.


The tests were conducted about 3 miles underground. More then good enough to stop radiation from reaching the surface.

The problem with that could be that it may be more difficult to determine where they're going.

[Das war einmal]

The tests were conducted about 3 miles underground. More then good enough to stop radiation from reaching the surface.

Yeah true, I don't know if there isn't a negative environmental effect because of this though

[Vincent P.]

Thats what is bothering me the most, all the rest of this is just a big show.

Absolutly. Apart from hearing the boom and measuring it with an earthquake machine, nuclear testing is nothing but a a self-indulgent show. Nobody will get back 3 miles down and take real measurements. It's all about "look at me I've got nukes". The only thing is that americans had more powerful one in 1945...

All this to say they're expensive, useless deeds.

[Communist Theory]

Doubt it.

[Das war einmal]

Cuban isolation came from the outside, not the inside. Big difference.

I dont believe the motivation behind Juche is isolation, I believe its based on self-reliance and the fact that the DPRK did not want to choose a side after the Sino-Soviet split. Allthough the isolation of their own population is a dire situation which leads to further frustration.

[cb9's_unity]

I don't support nuclear weapons, i don't support the NK dictatorship. But the western powers should be the last to try to take the moral high ground considering their nuclear and imperialist records. Both sides suck and seemingly have little to no care about the plight of the NK population.

[LOLseph Stalin]

It's all about "look at me I've got nukes".

The thing I find funny is that the launch was broadcasted all over South Korea. This could be some kind of warning like "Look, we have nukes to attack you with since we're still at war!"

[Vincent P.]

I dont believe the motivation behind Juche is isolation, I believe its based on self-reliance and the fact that the DPRK did not want to choose a side after the Sino-Soviet split. Allthough the isolation of their own population is a dire situation which leads to further frustration.
Of course. And there is also a margin between "self-sufficiency", which I advocate as an anarchist, and "filter all that is coming in and out of the country, both economically and culturally talking".

[LOLseph Stalin]

I dont believe the motivation behind Juche is isolation,

A big part of Juche that turns me off is the fact that it actually encourages a personality cult unlike in the Soviet personality cult which was set up by the party designed to unite the Soviets.

[Vincent P.]

The thing I find funny is that the launch was broadcasted all over South Korea. This could be some kind of warning like "Look, we have nukes to attack you with since we're still at war!"

Bourgeois country also do very well at adding oil on the fire through medias. "Look at these mad muslim-atheist-socialist-commies with their bomb! Let's intervene!"

[mykittyhasaboner]

Cuban isolation came from the outside, not the inside. Big difference.

This is one of the worst things you have said so far.

[Das war einmal]

A big part of Juche that turns me off is the fact that it actually encourages a personality cult unlike in the Soviet personality cult which was set up by the party designed to unite the Soviets.


Damn right that is almost feudalistic, you could argue that this is part of the Korean culture but I don't think that is sufficient

[Vincent P.]

This is one of the worst things you have said so far.
Mind to elaborate? I like to know when I'm wrong, but also why.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Mind to elaborate? I like to know when I'm wrong, but also why.

So you think that the collapse of the DPRK's main trading partners, the constant threat of war, and environmental and energy crises have less to do with the DPRK's isolation than some reason "from the inside"?

That just doesn't make sense, and I'm sure you mean the evil authoritarian state as "the inside".

[Revy]

Yeah yeah. Ever had a free trip to NK? Fuck no. You're accompaniated by guides 24/24, and no foreign journalist are allowed. Either Juche is advocating timidity, or NK has a lot to hide.

Ever saw NK tv? Have a try on youtube. They're so controlled it's funny.

And last but not least: the economic situation. Although I'm no a techno-affictionado this picture speaks for itself. This is North Korea, North East China and South Korea at night. North Korea is the dark part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg


Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people don't even have widespread electricity?!"

That and Internet access is not allowed to anyone but the elite. The only most people can access the Internet in North Korea is to use a smuggled Chinese cell phone.

Some authoritarian countries prefer to allow the Internet but control it...North Korea doesn't want its citizens getting online at all.

[Vincent P.]

So you think that the collapse of the DPRK's main trading partners, the constant threat of war, and environmental and energy crises have less to do with the DPRK's isolation than some reason "from the inside"?

That just doesn't make sense, and I'm sure you mean the evil authoritarian state as "the inside".

This nuke thing is all about expensive provocation to foreign country, which NK doesn't need econnomically and politically talking but which it does anyway. This is all there is to be said in this thread, now I'm going to bed.

Yes, media control and "cultural autarky" is isolation from the inside and yes, the evil state is responsible of this mess, especially in this case.

[mykittyhasaboner]

This nuke thing is all about expensive provocation to foreign country, which NK doesn't need econnomically and politically talking but which it does anyway. This is all there is to be said in this thread, now I'm going to bed.
Really? That is simply absurd. How can one possibly consider that the DPRK are trying to provoke a war?


Yes, media control and "cultural autarky" is isolation from the inside and yes, the evil state is responsible of this mess, especially in this case.
Then if that's the case, you blatantly ignore the reasons why the DPRK has "media control and "cultural autarky". NK doesn't exist in a bubble you know.

[Glenn Beck]

Cuban isolation came from the outside, not the inside. Big difference.

Seriously?

....

Seriously?

[JimmyJazz]

Here are some pretty good documentaries on North Korea:

North Korea: A Day in the Life (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h77e_north-korea-a-day-in-the-life-1-of_news) (no ignorant narrator spouting off, just raw documentary footage)
Welcome to North Korea (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3742145385913859804&ei=GKwcSoiTGJj2qAOC3uDwCQ&q=north+korea)

Some people seem to mindlessly assert that North Korea is a good place to live, which is absurd. North Korea is, by all appearances, every bit as bad as the third world capitalist shitholes that cover the planet. You can say it's all because of sanctions, and surely that's a big part of it, but they also have pictures of the Dear Leader hanging on the walls in their apartments. Sanctions don't cause that, at least not directly.

North Korea is the kind of living tragedy you can expect to see anytime a country is forced to attempt "socialism in one country" in the absence of a sizable socialist bloc. They can either maintain "socialism in one country", or acquiesce to gangster imperialism. It's a complete lose-lose, and I honestly wouldn't begrudge them either choice.

One thing I sincerely wonder is what explains the difference between North Korea and Cuba. Cuba doesn't have anything like the poverty, the personality cult, or the military spending of NK. I don't know enough to say whether North Korea has faced much more pressure than Cuba, or if Cuba has just done better under the pressure.

[Glenn Beck]

Some people seem to mindlessly assert that North Korea is a good place to live, which is absurd.

Who? I at least acknowledge that South Korea is probably a better place to live for most people, what is important is the why. It's not just the sanctions but the dependence on the USSR that was built, and the total lack of interested trading partners in the capitalist world (even the third world). What would happen to Cuba if they could not trade with Spain, Canada, and Latin America?

I'm sorry, lots of folks tend to accept the line of the mainstream media that North Korea's poverty is entirely intentional and self inflicted. I'm not buying it, not for a minute. It contradicts everything I know about the situation and offends my common sense. And I'm not too happy with everyone who points this out being considered a crazed Jucheist when I can't really name any 'defender' of North Korea in these recurring threads who approves of the North Korean governments ideology. Not a single one. The difference is that some people have the honesty to point out when shit doesn't make sense and simply don't overly concern themselves with the Korean people's affairs. What the hell can we, in the US, in Western Europe, do by *****ing about North Korea's government besides join the chorus of western liberal 'useful idiots' that drum up the vanguard of the support for every wave of economic sanctions and eventual military intervention?

You compare North Korea to "the third world capitalist shitholes that cover the planet". Although I'm not certain that places like Bangladesh or the Congo compare favorably to the DPRK, I agree with the sentiment that you express. When you get down to the bare reality, North Korea is not very exciting. Most of the decontextualized 'shocking facts' seem downright mundane in light of their explanations, and few things are without parallel in the world. It's not that North Korea is this radiant beacon of socialist democracy that has been unjustly slandered, but that sensationalism has given issues related to it a greater weight than they deserve and encouraged all kinds of sloppy thinking to pass for analysis.

[Invariance]

Here are some pretty good documentaries on North Korea:

Welcome to North Korea (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3742145385913859804&ei=GKwcSoiTGJj2qAOC3uDwCQ&q=north+korea) I love how the subway is used as an example of how North Koreans lack any individuality and are automatons because commuters don't look foreigners in the face (because, apparently its illegal) and people 'pass through in the thousands.' Go to any subway in any country and you will have people looking down, not talking, and going on their business. Apparently only in North Korea it is an example of the lack of individuality and worthy of being used in an analysis of a country. What condescending crap.

[Revy]

North Korea's regime is the creation of the Soviet Union.

After the end of Japanese occupation on the peninsula, there was a rapid growth of revolutionary socialist ideas, and workers' councils were being created.

However, the Soviet Union wanted to have a pawn, so it established its control. Indigenous socialist groups were crushed and replaced with groups that answered to the USSR.

Kim Il-Sung was appropriately installed into his position by the Soviets. He did not rise to his position as dictator through mere chance alone or by his "glorious leadership". He was a puppet, in no uncertain terms.

[JimmyJazz]

@ gonzeau:

I'm not sure where you see a disagreement between what you said and what you quoted from me. I went on in my post to address the why, and I agree that the why is more important.

But flat denials of the reality in North Korea aren't a good idea, they just make socialists look bad. Better to use the situation in North Korea to explain a little history to people.

edit: I misread the first word of your post as "What?" Since it actually says "who?", I would say Communist Theory is doing it (trying to explain a lack of electricity as some kind of free choice on NK's part, rather than what it obviously is, a forced choice that results from having a horrible economy, which in turn is the result of isolation and sanctions).


I love how the subway is used as an example of how North Koreans lack any individuality and are automatons because commuters don't look foreigners in the face (because, apparently its illegal) and people 'pass through in the thousands.'

That was the only part of the narration on that video that actually made me lol.

I should point out (if it isn't obvious) that the narration on that video is pure crap, but the footage and the interviews are good.

[Revy]

Fun fact: There are 800 statues of Kim Il-Sung in North Korea.
Yep, 800 statues for one man.
He is also the Eternal President. Meaning, his reign goes beyond death. They have really created a religion with Juche.

[JimmyJazz]

Fun fact: There are 800 statues of Kim Il-Sung in North Korea.
Yep, 800 statues for one man.
He is also the Eternal President. Meaning, his reign goes beyond death. They have really created a religion with Juche.

I don't understand the point of a leftist attacking North Korea. Distance yourself from it, fine, but to attack it I don't understand. This is the same thing I said to an anarchist who wouldn't stop attacking Marxism (for being a "religion") to me awhile ago.

That said, this is helpful in dealing with right-wingers who harp on the "personality cult" issue:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/letters/77_11_10.htm

[Revy]

Here are some pretty good documentaries on North Korea:

North Korea: A Day in the Life (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h77e_north-korea-a-day-in-the-life-1-of_news) (no ignorant narrator spouting off, just raw documentary footage)
Welcome to North Korea (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3742145385913859804&ei=GKwcSoiTGJj2qAOC3uDwCQ&q=north+korea)

Some people seem to mindlessly assert that North Korea is a good place to live, which is absurd. North Korea is, by all appearances, every bit as bad as the third world capitalist shitholes that cover the planet. You can say it's all because of sanctions, and surely that's a big part of it, but they also have pictures of the Dear Leader hanging on the walls in their apartments. Sanctions don't cause that, at least not directly.

North Korea is the kind of living tragedy you can expect to see anytime a country is forced to attempt "socialism in one country" in the absence of a sizable socialist bloc. They can either maintain "socialism in one country", or acquiesce to gangster imperialism. It's a complete lose-lose, and I honestly wouldn't begrudge them either choice.

One thing I sincerely wonder is what explains the difference between North Korea and Cuba. Cuba doesn't have anything like the poverty, the personality cult, or the military spending of NK. I don't know enough to say whether North Korea has faced much more pressure than Cuba, or if Cuba has just done better under the pressure.

Lies! all lies! :p
C8nizm9t0cE

[mykittyhasaboner]

Doesn't look so bad to me.

[JimmyJazz]

And I'm not too happy with everyone who points this out being considered a crazed Jucheist when I can't really name any 'defender' of North Korea in these recurring threads who approves of the North Korean governments ideology. Not a single one.

In all honesty, I have seen a few posters outright say that the DPRK is an example of functioning socialism. Not many, but a few. And I don't know whether they really, truly believed it, but they did say it at one point in time.

Then there are some posters who start out merely trying to explain the DPRK and/or defend it against interventionist "useful idiots", but they get sloppy, and end up sounding like they think the DPRK is ideal or even a good place to live.

But I agree, the most common thing is for people like This Charming Man making a reasoned explanation for why the DPRK is what it is and then get flamed for having an "ungodly interest" in the DPRK. That's just silly, and any Marxist who doesn't have any idea of how to explain the DPRK really won't have a leg to stand on when they leave their circle of Party friends and talk to people in the wider world. How will these people be able to defend against the charge that their ideology (Marxism) always and inevitably leads to the DPRK?

[Invariance]

Cuba has been playing its leninist comedy 100 km from the US coast for 50 years and it never needed nukes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

[Vincent P.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
This was 47 years ago, the nukes were the soviet's, and Nikita called them back before they could have been used.

[Delirium]

Its all posturing... bluff and counter bluff. Pyonyang knows that,
1 Obama will not take military action against DPRK.
2 US public opinion will not support a war in Korea
3 The US military does not have the resources to fight another war
4 The ROK will not take military action against DPRK

Pyongyang is just trying to make the US and ROK look weak, what is the us going to do? Increase sanctions?

[Josef Balin]

North Korea's regime is the creation of the Soviet Union.

After the end of Japanese occupation on the peninsula, there was a rapid growth of revolutionary socialist ideas, and workers' councils were being created.

However, the Soviet Union wanted to have a pawn, so it established its control. Indigenous socialist groups were crushed and replaced with groups that answered to the USSR.

Kim Il-Sung was appropriately installed into his position by the Soviets. He did not rise to his position as dictator through mere chance alone or by his "glorious leadership". He was a puppet, in no uncertain terms.
Wow, I honestly can't believe you just COMPLETELY made up the history of a country. You had no idea what really happened so you just made shit up. Cool beans.

Kim Il-Sung was the head of the more nationalist faction of the Workers Party of North Korea that had liberated ALL of Korea. North Korea was NOT a puppet government at any time in history. South Korea is the puppet government that only exists because of an imperialist power, not the North.

[Josef Balin]

Yeah yeah. Ever had a free trip to NK? Fuck no. You're accompaniated by guides 24/24, and no foreign journalist are allowed. Either Juche is advocating timidity, or NK has a lot to hide.

Ever saw NK tv? Have a try on youtube. They're so controlled it's funny.

And last but not least: the economic situation. Although I'm no a techno-affictionado this picture speaks for itself. This is North Korea, North East China and South Korea at night. North Korea is the dark part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg


Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people don't even have widespread electricity?!"
Why are you spreading such blatant propaganda? That image was taken during one of the blackouts in North Korea.

Seriously people, do any of you even filter any of the shit that you type?

EDIT: I'd also like to address the internet problem in North Korea. North Korea cannot possibly have widespread internet until it builds the appropriate underground cable networks, etc. It's not as simple as calling Verizon but on a large scale you idiots, it's a giant operation that they can't afford right now (although they have been progressing in technological autonomy).

[Revy]

Why are you spreading such blatant propaganda? That image was taken during one of the blackouts in North Korea.

Seriously people, do any of you even filter any of the shit that you type?

EDIT: I'd also like to address the internet problem in North Korea. North Korea cannot possibly have widespread internet until it builds the appropriate underground cable networks, etc. It's not as simple as calling Verizon but on a large scale you idiots, it's a giant operation that they can't afford right now (although they have been progressing in technological autonomy).

Nope, they do not allow the Internet for anyone but the elite.

That is the problem. Kim Jong-il loves the Internet, he calls himself an "Internet engineer".

[Vincent P.]

Why are you spreading such blatant propaganda? That image was taken during one of the blackouts in North Korea.)
Got any source? Because I've got the same picture from different sources at different intervals, and they kinda look alike. I googled "north korea blackout night" and found nothing on the matter.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/Korea-at-Night.jpg




I'd also like to address the internet problem in North Korea. North Korea cannot possibly have widespread internet until it builds the appropriate underground cable networks, etc. It's not as simple as calling Verizon but on a large scale you idiots, it's a giant operation that they can't afford right now (although they have been progressing in technological autonomy).

Well that was exactly my point: they cannot afford internet, but they can afford nukes. Yay!!!

[Revy]

I find it ridiculous that it can be suggested that North Korea cannot "afford" the Internet, when they apparently can afford nuclear tests and telecommunications satellites.

The issue is not their ability to get Internet access, it is the fact that the working class is prohibited from accessing it.

[Vincent P.]

So you think that the collapse of the DPRK's main trading partners, the constant threat of war, and environmental and energy crises have less to do with the DPRK's isolation than some reason "from the inside"?

When you have "environmental and energy crisis" (so was it a blackout or what?) you can't afford nukes. A neat exemple of "isolation from the inside": cell phones are prohibited (after they noticed it could lead to have contacts with outsiders):


A North Korean official attending an inter-Korean economic meeting in Pyongyang confirmed that mobile phones were banned from May 25, according to pool reports.
"It's true that mobile phone use was prohibited," the official was quoted as saying yesterday.
North Korea's mobile service began in November 2002, with products from Motorola Corp. of the United States and Nokia Corp. of Finland on the market in Pyongyang, Yonhap news agency said.
North Koreans were seen using mobile phones last month when the two Koreas held minister-level rapprochment talks, it said.
Experts believe North Korea had introduced the mobile technology to make communications convenient but later realised the device caused floods of foreign culture into the reclusive country, Yonhap said.

This ain't bourgeois propaganda shit, it came from the mouth of a NK official.

As for the falling of its major trading partner, they're still there. They had internal change, but they can still consume NK stuff, and no one is putting an embargo on them.

[Revy]

turns out there was some new developments re: North Korea and the Internet.

N.Korea allows limited Internet cell phone service

.shareDiv { float:right; margin:0px 0px 0px 18px; position:relative; top:-4px; } .shareEmail { background:transparent url(http://www1.static.zimbio.com/images/mail-forward_zWhite.png) no-repeat scroll 3px 4px; padding:5px 5px 6px 25px; font-size:0.75em; font-weight:bold; display:block; } Email (http://www.zimbio.com/Pyongyang+North+Korea/share?Content=/Pyongyang%2BNorth%2BKorea/articles/133&ContentTitle=N.Korea+allows+limited+Internet+cell+ phone+service+-+Pyongyang+North+Korea+-+Zimbio)

May-22-09 1:37am/22/2009 5:37 GMT From: www.ap.org (http://www.ap.org/)

North Korea has begun limited Internet service for mobile phone users, a government Web site reported, months after launching an advanced network in cooperation with an Egyptian telecommunications company.
The service allows North Koreans to access a Web site through their phones to see news reports carried by the country's official Korean Central News Agency as well as news about the capital Pyongyang, according to the government-run Uriminzokkiri Web site.
The Korean-language Web site as seen on an ordinary computer screen also allows viewers to listen to North Korean music, get information about books, art and investment opportunities in North Korea and even engage in Internet chatting. It was unclear, however, if those services were available in the mobile version.
Uriminzokkiri did not give any further details in its report Thursday on whether the service is restricted to the capital Pyongyang or available elsewhere.
North Korea introduced an advanced mobile phone network in partnership with Cairo-based Orascom Telecom in December. That marked the first time that North Koreans were allowed to use cell phones since a previous, short-lived mobile service was shut down without explanation in 2004.
Orascom said at the time that the 3G network was initially deployed to cover Pyongyang, which has a population of more than 2 million, with plans to expand coverage to the entire country over the next few years.
The number of mobile phone users had reached 20,000 by the end of March, including some foreigners, Tokyo-based Choson Sinbo newspaper, considered a mouthpiece for the North Korean regime, said earlier this month.
Mobile phone use in authoritarian North Korea comes with restrictions. Phones do not allow contact with the outside world, or with the special telephone networks that foreigners are normally permitted to use inside North Korea.


LOL:lol: so they can only access one site now. Still no real Internet.
Keep on spinning reality for the dictatorship. If you lived there, and weren't apart of the party bureaucracy, you would NOT be able to post here.

[Vincent P.]

So I just wanted to emphazise the lack of coherence of the criticism of my "NK at night" picture. Was it:

1/ A genuine energy crisis?

So you think that the collapse of the DPRK's main trading partners, the constant threat of war, and environmental and energy crises have less to do with the DPRK's isolation than some reason "from the inside"?

2/ Do they turn off the light at night?

They turn off all electricity at night.


3/ Was there a blackout?

Why are you spreading such blatant propaganda? That image was taken during one of the blackouts in North Korea

An approval point to whoever can put some light (pun intended) on the matter. At best we've got 2 arrogant people trying to make unfounded assertions in a debate, which sucks.

[x359594]

...Cuba has been playing its leninist comedy 100 km from the US coast for 50 years and it never needed nukes.

Ever hear-tell of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

All of the DPRK's belligerent actions are designed to win concessions from its capitalist enemies. Going back to Agreed Framework between the United States of America and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, signed on October 21, the DPRK agreed to halt its weapons program and replace its old nuclear technology with light water reactor power plants to be supplied by the United States. This was to be accompanied by the gradual normalization of relations between the two countries and the eventual signing of a peace treaty between the US, the ROK and the DPRK.

Reactionary elements in the US, the death of Kim Il-Sung (who negotiated the agreement) and finally the Bush-Cheney linking of the DPRK to the "international terror conspiracy" put an end to it.

Not surprisingly, the DPRK felt betrayed, and Kim Jong-Il's moves since then have been designed to protect the DPRK, secure his power base and ameliorate the dire economic conditions of his country. The goal remains the same today as it did back in 1994: full diplomatic recognition from the US, ROK and Japan, normalization of relations between the three countries and the replacement of the old nuclear facilities with modern equipment. Kim is playing hard-ball to realize his goals. Time will tell if he succeeds.

[Vincent P.]

Ever hear-tell of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Yep.

This was 47 years ago, the nukes were the soviet's, and Nikita called them back before they could have been used.

And they did well without it since then.

[gorillafuck]

Doesn't look so bad to me.
That video =/= Adequate insight on a country

[Dr Mindbender]

Here, one point about the North Korean lights-

Maybe i'm being dense but why the fuck would they switch the lights off during the night to 'conserve' electricity? It isnt as if they'll need the lights during the daytime.

I rather suspect the electricity shortage is a 24/7 thing.

[Vincent P.]

Here, one point about the North Korean lights-

Maybe i'm being dense but why the fuck would they switch the lights off during the night to 'conserve' electricity? It isnt as if they'll need the lights during the daytime.

I rather suspect the electricity shortage is a 24/7 thing.
Kim Jong-Il's smile suffices to light us at night :o! Praise the dear leader!

I rather suspect that some people here are real desperate not to show they're wrong even though they know they are.

Intellectual honesty anyone? This isn't intended to be trolling, but I saw cigarett makers more honest about their products than some guys on this forum...:p.

[und]

Here, one point about the North Korean lights-

Maybe i'm being dense but why the fuck would they switch the lights off during the night to 'conserve' electricity? It isnt as if they'll need the lights during the daytime.

I rather suspect the electricity shortage is a 24/7 thing.
They need electricity for things other than lighting, like for running machines in factories and to run telecommunications networks.

[Vincent P.]

They need electricity for things other than lighting, like for running machines in factories and to run telecommunications networks.
Telecommunication network? BWABWABWABWABWA (we spent about a third of the thread saying cell phones and internet were banned.)

Building nukes require electricity though.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Building nuclear weapons is a sensible precaution against invasion. What's that you say? Cuba doesn't need them? Well, unlike Cuba, Korea doesn't have large numbers of foreign troops on its soil and a fucking Demilitarised Zone splitting the country in two. Also unlike Cuba, North Korea has been at war (ceasefire notwithstanding) for nearly half a century, so you can hardly blame them for having a "siege mentality".

As for the lack of night-lights, food shortages, and other stuff: being on a war footing for several decades will do that to pretty much any country.

[GX.]

Building nuclear weapons is a sensible precaution against invasion. Yes. I don't think we would have treated Iraq like we dead if Saddam had had a nuclear weapon. On the one hand, we get mass murder and bombing throughout Iraq and Afghanistan, on the other we've seen all sorts of threats against North Korea, but never any real action against them. Ultimately no country should have nukes, but clearly they prevent invasion. Simple as that.

[mykittyhasaboner]

When you have "environmental and energy crisis" (so was it a blackout or what?) you can't afford nukes.
What a logical analysis. "If you have this (with out this even being defined) you simply can't afford nukes". Sorry, but to me that just doesn't follow.

As for environmental and energy crises, some examples include heavy flooding, which is directly tied to the damage caused to hydroelectric power plants.

Some good sources on this are:
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN017606.pdf

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/target/energy.htm



A neat exemple of "isolation from the inside": cell phones are prohibited (after they noticed it could lead to have contacts with outsiders):


This ain't bourgeois propaganda shit, it came from the mouth of a NK official.Well it's certainly a negligible development but it has little to do with the DPRK's isolation, which ultimately came as a result of imperialist invasion, and an ongoing 'war'. Which is why I thought your comment on "isolation coming from the inside" made no sense.


As for the falling of its major trading partner, they're still there. They had internal change, but they can still consume NK stuff, and no one is putting an embargo on them.Perhaps your right about their trading partners. The US however has been pushing for total trade embargo for quite a while.




2/ Do they turn off the light at night? I don't know because I never said that.

[Invariance]

http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Images/earth_lights_lrg.JPG

Here's one of the world at night. Parts of Africa are quite barren, as are parts of South America. Australia too, although that is probably mainly due to population demographics (most people living in coastal cities). Yeah, North Korea is dark at night. That could be for a number of reasons. Most likely electricity use is restricted at night to conserve energy (many cities only have electricity during certain times of the day). Possibly electricity is restricted at night because of the threat of war. Probably, it has more to do with the fact that North Korea is a poor country with limited resources that are spent elsewhere. People complaining about the lack of electricity perhaps should question the IAEA demanding the closure of nuclear plants, and the US only removing some sanctions when various nuclear plants were shut down. It seems you can't win; if North Korea starts the nuclear plants to create more electricity they are condemned as nuclear-war provocateurs , if they don't then people mock them for their lack of electricity.

[The Red Next Door]

I think this is bullshit.
I mean they have a good fucking reason to have a nuke I mean half the western world seems to want to knock down their door and say "Well these Commie bastards had it coming I mean who can resist coca-cola?" If I was Kim Jung-Il I would want some damn nukes to make sure that didn't happen.
And please I don't wanna read "Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people are starving?!" that's about as true as the claim that Cuba is oppressed and half their people are political prisoners. The only political prisoners in Cuba are in Gitmo.[/QUOTE]
Nobody have a right to nuclear weapons

[The Author]

Yeah yeah. Ever had a free trip to NK? Fuck no. You're accompaniated by guides 24/24, and no foreign journalist are allowed. Either Juche is advocating timidity, or NK has a lot to hide.

:rolleyes:

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/phen_tpk_e.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/phen_tpk_e.html)

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/index_e.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/index_e.html)

http://www.revleft.com/vb/liberty-no...323#post981323 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/liberty-north-korea-t63904/index.html?p=981323#post981323)


Ever saw NK tv? Have a try on youtube. They're so controlled it's funny.Well, when confronted by South Korean, Japanese, and American propaganda about the greatness of capitalism and the "evils" of communism, it's understandable.


And last but not least: the economic situation. Although I'm no a techno-affictionado this picture speaks for itself. This is North Korea, North East China and South Korea at night. North Korea is the dark part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg


Omg why should they be doing nuclear testing when their people don't even have widespread electricity?!" You can clearly see a spot of light in part of the D.P.R.K., that's Pyongyang. Also, Vinnie's depiction of the entire global electric grid at night along with his explanation of conserving electricity also figures into the equation. In fact, it's unfortunate that the rest of the world doesn't do the same, reducing electric consumption and light pollution.

[Dóchas]

funny how for the last couple of years iran has been developing nuclear technology with the aim of creating nuclear weapons and its only now and then that the US warns them not to continue. but when north korea tests some of its nuclear power which it has every right to do imo yet the whole world condems their actions as possible acts of war. i dunno it just doesnt seem right. i guess its ok to have an arsnel of nuclear weapons that can destroy the world many times over as long as its in american hands :rolleyes:

[Led Zeppelin]

Building nuclear weapons is a sensible precaution against invasion. What's that you say? Cuba doesn't need them? Well, unlike Cuba, Korea doesn't have large numbers of foreign troops on its soil and a fucking Demilitarised Zone splitting the country in two.

They do have 9.500 troops on Cuban soil at Guantanamo Bay, while they have 28.500 in South-Korea. Both are large numbers, even though the numbers don't really matter since the US can deploy troops to both places within a very short time (the US has more troops in Japan and other countries close to the DPRK, and of course Cuba is very close to the US itself).


Also unlike Cuba, North Korea has been at war (ceasefire notwithstanding) for nearly half a century, so you can hardly blame them for having a "siege mentality".

Cuba has had to suffer just as much from the US in terms of war-activities as the DPRK has (with the exception of the period of the Korean war itself). They were invaded by the US and were the victim of the CIA's "Cuban Project", which "was to be a coordinated program of political, psychological, and military sabotage, involving intelligence operations as well as assassination attempts on key political leaders. The Cuban project also proposed attacks on mainland US targets, hijackings and assaults on Cuban refugee boats to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government, these proposals were known collectively as Operation Northwoods."

Yet despite all this Cuba didn't invest in its military to the same extent the DPRK did and still does (over a quarter of their GDP I believe), and it turned out pretty good for them since they now have a very high living standard (compared to the rest of the "third world") and one of the most advanced medical industries of any country.


As for the lack of night-lights, food shortages, and other stuff: being on a war footing for several decades will do that to pretty much any country.

Well, yeah, if you mostly invest in the military and neglect other areas of the economy. Cuba has proven that it can be done otherwise (while warding off invasion), so I don't see why the DPRK's incorrect policies should be absolved and not criticized just because they were under constant threat of attack, because Cuba was (and still is) as well.


funny how for the last couple of years iran has been developing nuclear technology with the aim of creating nuclear weapons and its only now and then that the US warns them not to continue.

They are not creating nuclear technology with the aim of creating nuclear weapons. The IAEA has found no evidence of this and the US is claiming it based on nothing but speculation.


It seems you can't win; if North Korea starts the nuclear plants to create more electricity they are condemned as nuclear-war provocateurs , if they don't then people mock them for their lack of electricity.

They did not start nuclear plants solely to produce more energy, because there would be no nuke tests if that was the case. Obviously they've used the plants to produce the nukes as well, which is why this situation is totally different from Iran's, which has denied any attempt to create nuclear weapons and has stated repeatedly that its sole intent is to produce energy.

Anyway, I'm not against the DPRK having nuclear weapons. If one capitalist nation has them, all nations should have the right to have them. I'm not buying the "they need the weapons and the huge military spending to have a good enough deterrent and if they didn't have it they would've been destroyed by now!" line though. It absolves the current regime - which is one of the worst forms of Stalinism in practice - from its idiotic policies and its reactionary nature.

[communard resolution]

Thought it might be fun to read the corresponding news item from the North Korean Central News agency. 'Compare and contrast', as they say, with the Western version that we get to read. I apologise if this has been posted before - in which case please delete it.


Pyongyang, May 27 (KCNA) -- The Panmunjom Mission of the Korean People's Army issued a statement Wednesday in connection with the fact that the unstable situation created in Korea due to the Lee Myung Bak group of traitors' reckless moves to "fully participate" in the U.S.-led PSI is now inching close an extreme phase where a war may break out any moment.

The present rulers of the U.S. including Obama egged the south Korean puppets on to participate in the PSI, asserting that it is necessary to turn the PSI into a "lasting international regime," the statement noted, and continued:


This is a wanton violation and clear negation of not only international law but the Korean Armistice Agreement which bans "any form of blockade" against the other belligerent party.


The Lee group has unhesitatingly taken the step of "fully participating" in the PSI, blindly yielding to its master as it is steeped in sycophancy and submission to the marrow of its bones. In view of this situation the Panmunjom Mission of the KPA clarifies the following principled stand of the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK:


1. Our revolutionary armed forces, as they have already declared, will regard the Lee Myung Bak group of traitors' "full participation" in the PSI as a declaration of war against the DPRK.

Accordingly, they will regard any hostile actions against the DPRK, including checkup and inspection of its peaceful vessels, as an unpardonable encroachment on the DPRK's sovereignty and counter them with prompt and strong military strikes.


2. The Korean People's Army will not be bound to the Armistice Agreement any longer since the present ruling quarters of the United States, keen on the moves to stifle the DPRK, plugged the south Korean puppets into the PSI at last, denying not only international law but the AA itself and discarding even its responsibility as a signatory to the agreement.

In case the AA loses its binding force, the Korean Peninsula is bound to immediately return to a state of war from a legal point of view and so our revolutionary armed forces will go over to corresponding military actions.


3. For the present, we will not guarantee the legal status of the five islands under the south side's control (Paekryong, Taechong, Sochong, Yonphyong and U islands) in our side's territorial waters northwest of the extension of the Military Demarcation Line in the West Sea of Korea and safe sailing of warships of the U.S. imperialist aggression forces and the south Korean puppet navy and civilian ships operating in the waters around there.


It is illogical for the DPRK to unilaterally meet the requirements of fair international law and the bilateral agreement since the U.S. imperialists and the Lee Myung Bak group of traitors have reneged on them. Nothing is graver mistake than to calculate that the American-style Jungle law can work on the DPRK.


They should bear in mind that the DPRK has tremendous military muscle and its own method of strike able to conquer any targets in its vicinity at one stroke or hit the U.S. on the raw, if necessary.


Those who provoke the DPRK once will not be able to escape its unimaginable and merciless punishment. Source: Korean News (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)

[communard resolution]

Here's another one:


Pyongyang, May 27 (KCNA) -- The Lee Myung Bak group of south Korea keen on the moves for confrontation and war against the DPRK in league with foreign forces on May 26 officially declared at last it would fully participate in the PSI despite the unanimous opposition of all Koreans and public opinion at home and abroad.

The Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea issued a statement on May 27 in this regard.


It said:


The so-called PSI is a mechanism for a war of aggression built by the U.S. against the DPRK under the pretext of intercepting and blockading ships and planes, etc. suspicious of transporting weapons of mass destruction including nuclear weapons and missiles.


The PSI has been criticized and repudiated at home and abroad for its aggressive nature and illegality.


Moreover, full participation in the PSI by a side on the Korean Peninsula where the state of military confrontation is growing acute and there is constant danger of military conflict itself means igniting a war.

The DPRK, therefore, has already seriously warned the south Korean authorities against the above-said moves and repeatedly clarified its stand that it would strongly counter those moves of the Lee group, in particular, regarding them as a declaration of a war as it is pursuant to its American master's policy.


Nevertheless, the Lee group undisguisedly took a step of fully participating in the PSI, which former regimes dared not do so, bringing the situation on the Korean Peninsula and inter-Korean relations beyond the uncontrollable danger line of a war.


It is preposterous for the Lee group to have opted to fully participate in the PSI under the pretext of the underground nuclear test of the DPRK for self-defense.


It is nothing strange and quite natural for a nuclear weapons state to conduct a nuclear test.


The anti-DPRK racket kicked up by the U.S. and its followers under that pretext is not truly aimed at the nuclear non-proliferation but prompted by their black-hearted intention to stifle the DPRK.


Now that the south Korean puppets were so ridiculous as to join in the said racket and dare declare a war against compatriots through their full participation in the PSI, the DPRK is compelled to take a decisive measure, as it has already warned.


The DPRK solemnly declares as follows in view of the prevailing situation:


First, The DPRK will deal a decisive and merciless retaliatory blow, no matter from which place, at any attempt to stop, check and inspect its vessels, regarding it as a violation of its inviolable sovereignty and territory and a grave provocation to it.


Second, The DPRK will take such a practical counter-action as in the wartime now that the south Korean authorities declared a war in wanton violation of its dignity and sovereignty by fully participating in the PSI.


The DPRK will never pardon the south Korean puppet group of traitors for going mad with confrontation and war, bereft of any reason as servants for outside forces in the moves for a war of aggression.

The Lee Myung Bak group will be held wholly accountable for the disastrous consequences to be entailed by its reckless hostile acts against the DPRK.

Source: Korean News (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)

[Dr Mindbender]

They need electricity for things other than lighting, like for running machines in factories and to run telecommunications networks.

So no one in North Korea drives after sunset?

[Vincent P.]

Yes. I don't think we would have treated Iraq like we dead if Saddam had had a nuclear weapon. On the one hand, we get mass murder and bombing throughout Iraq and Afghanistan, on the other we've seen all sorts of threats against North Korea, but never any real action against them. Ultimately no country should have nukes, but clearly they prevent invasion. Simple as that.

Mhm? Wasn't Iraq invaded because it was thought to have nukes and chemical weapons?

[x359594]

Mhm? Wasn't Iraq invaded because it was thought to have nukes and chemical weapons?

No.

US intelligence agencies knew that Iraq didn't have WMDs. Hans Blix and UN weapons inspectors were swarming over the country trying to confirm the Bush-Cheney contention that Saddam Hussein was building a nuke but were recalled before they could complete their mission. Colin Powell presented bogus evidence before the UN in order to provide the US with a casus beli before the international community, and more importantly to stampede the US public into backing the invasion.

I must say Vincent I'm surprised that anyone who posts here is not familiar with the background of the Iraq war.

At present the DPRK has nukes but does not have a delivery capability. It does have a massive conventional force capable of seriously damaging the ROK and the US 8th Army that's based there. Its long range missiles can reach US bases in Japan (but not Okinawa.) Kim Jong-Il is playing the only cards he has, and it's clear that the DPRK will return to the status quo ante 2003 if it gets diplomatic recognition and normalization of relations from the US, the ROK and Japan; the light water reactors promised by the US, the loans and other aid promised by the ROK and Japan.

[Communist Theory]

Mhm? Wasn't Iraq invaded because it was thought to have nukes and chemical weapons?
Ohhh Iraq had WMDs made out of crude oil, didn't you know?
The U.S. is supervising the removal. :closedeyes:

[Salyut]

Too lazy to attribute quotes to all authors.


Atleast the DPRK minds their own fucking business

So what about the North Korean commando raids into the south? The Rangoon bombing? :bored:

The tests were conducted about 3 miles underground. More then good enough to stop radiation from reaching the surface.

Where'd you hear that? Most underground tests were/are done a couple hundred feet down - max.

Barring a massive massive screw up, most of the radioactive material is entombed.

Its not like NK needs a nuclear program anyway. Seoul is within artillery range and the N. Koreans have a extensive chemical arsenal. The last thing the world needs is more nukes.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Its not like NK needs a nuclear program anyway. Seoul is within artillery range and the N. Koreans have a extensive chemical arsenal.

Perhaps because they want to defend against attacks from nations other than South Korea? You do have to understand that they have been under constant ridicule and intimidations from the west. Of course they're going to react in an aggressive way. Of course that still doesn't justify the Nuclear Weapons. The world should just be Nuke free.

[Glenn Beck]

Its not like NK needs a nuclear program anyway. Seoul is within artillery range and the N. Koreans have a extensive chemical arsenal.

Being able to hold not only parts of Seoul but also parts of Japan including vital US military bases hostage would go a long way in nullifying US/Japan/ROK advantage and encirclement of North Korea. It seems rather clear why they need a nuclear program to me. Being able to guarantee total destruction of not only Korea but the 'more important' nation of Japan along with large portions of the US military stationed there in case of war would give them a much fairer position at the bargaining table in peacetime. If you think that regardless of their strategic needs it's wrong for them to have one then that is one thing. But you claim that they have no need for it at all. On what basis?


The last thing the world needs is more nukes.

The U.S. and Russia have tens of thousands of nukes much higher yield than anything the DPRK is capable of producing. Going after other nations with a rather clear strategic need for a nuclear deterrent (Iran, North Korea) in the face of an aggressive rival that has a large arsenal and does not disavow first use of nuclear weapons (Israel, USA) pretty aptly demonstrates to me that Nuclear Non-Proliferation is a smokescreen for other motives in the 'superpowers club'.

Non-Proliferation is a dead letter until all the 'legal' nuclear weapons states make a binding commitment to disarm and only use whatever weapons remain for defense in case of an invasion (not 'defense' in case of war across the world).