Visiting Communist/Socialist Countries

[Red Saxon]

I am interested in taking a tour of the various Communist/Socialist countries after University. What are some that you would recommend? This isn't merely a vacation, as I want to visit some museums and other historical landmarks.

I already have Russia planned, for the historical significance there.

[Cymru]

Venezuela :cool:

[amandevsingh]

Cuba :castro: :che:

[Bright Banana Beard]

North Korea

[Atrus]

I would make Venezuela a priority. And once you're there, make security a priority...

[Pogue]

Wait, there's communist countries? Shit, where?

[the-red-under-the-bed]

Nepl man- come a spend some time in the communes or jsut join the ycl activities, its pretty cool here

[MakeYourFuture]

North Korea

That is possible to enter in North Korea? :D

[Bright Banana Beard]

Yes, it is possible to be on tour guide in North Korea, you must go to the embassy in China and ask for it. Then they explain.

[Wanted Man]

Cuba for US citizens: http://cubalinda.com/ (used to be run by the now deceased CIA defector Philip Agee)

NK, incl. US citizens: http://www.koryogroup.com/

[Asoka89]

Why the fuck would you want to go to North Korea. And there are no communist countries, that's a paradox to the extreme.

Visit Latin America if you want to get a sense of a vibrant socialist movement in some areas.

[Nwoye]

Chiapas, Mexico maybe...

[Wanted Man]

Why the fuck would you want to go to North Korea.
The mountain sceneries are pretty nice, as are the waterfalls.

[scarletghoul]

lol theres only a few to choose from. Just go see them all.
i hope to see them all eventually

[Sadena Meti]

Why the fuck would you want to go to North Korea. And there are no communist countries, that's a paradox to the extreme.


I'd say it's damn important to go have a look at North Korea, to remind us just how bad things can go.

But to the main topic, I would go to Cuba, Venezuela, briefly to Bolivia to see the class / ethnic unrest, then take a break in Sweden (a social-democracy). From thence to Russia, Vietnam, Nepal, China (multi-provence visit), and finish off with North Korea.

If you are a US citizen, you will end up with the most amazing array of passport stamps that will blow the mind of the customs and repatriation officer when you come home :D

[Holden Caulfield]

then take a break in Sweden (a social-democracy). haha you're such an American. Don't go to Sweden if you want to see any sort of socialism or communist country, social democracy is not socialism it is a capitalist system.

Just because Glen Beck calls Sweden and other European states socialist doesn't mean they are, I'm sure you envy our 'socialist' NHS in Britain but we are far from being socialist....

[LOLseph Stalin]

I want to go to Russia for the history. However, I've heard it's almost impossible for Canadians to get in unless they're basically invited. Anybody have any info on this?

[the last donut of the night]

haha you're such an American. Don't go to Sweden if you want to see any sort of socialism or communist country, social democracy is not socialism it is a capitalist system.

Just because Glen Beck calls Sweden and other European states socialist doesn't mean they are, I'm sure you envy our 'socialist' NHS in Britain but we are far from being socialist....


I agree. Not when universal healthcare is demonized in the only developed nation without it.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

But to the main topic, I would go to Cuba, Venezuela, briefly to Bolivia to see the class / ethnic unrest, then take a break in Sweden (a social-democracy). From thence to Russia, Vietnam, Nepal, China (multi-provence visit), and finish off with North Korea.

If you are a US citizen, you will end up with the most amazing array of passport stamps that will blow the mind of the customs and repatriation officer when you come home :D

That's if they let you back into the US after they see your 'commie stamp collection'. :D

If I were you, I'd go to Belarus. I've wanted to go there for ages just because it's an 'outpost of tyranny'. :laugh:

[Pogue]

Why would you want to go to Belarus?

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

As I said in the other post, then I can say I've been to an ''Outpost of Tyranny''. And it's an unusual destination...nobody goes to Belarus.

[Stand up for Judas]

Ive been to Belarus. Funny story - i got deported to Poland. Oh, we laughed...

[rednordman]

Belarus is probably an interesting country to visit, but from what i have heard, its best that you can speak russian, or else you just get the cold shoulder from everyone.

[RHIZOMES]

I'm planning on visiting Nepal, Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba and North Korea in that order some time in the near future (And by near I mean within 5 to 10 years from now) if I can procure the funds. Both to see revolution and/or revolutionary consciousness in action in the case of Nepal and Venezuela and to see how the revolution degenerated in the case of North Korea. It'd be a real life changing experience I'd expect.

[rednordman]

This must have been asked many times before, but has anyone on this forum actually visited North Korea?

[ellipsis]

Communist countries? not too much to choose from. I found cuba to be both thought provoking and informative during my visit, and that was before my political education. when you enter cuba you must tell the customs officer not to stamp your passport. because of this you will have two entry stamps for your proxy country, bermuda, canada, mexico, etc. Be prepared to have an explanation ready ("i took a private plane to visit another country.

Areas? How about Vermont, USA? jk. but seriously I found Chiapas and Oaxaca City, Mexico to be incredibly inspiring and full of an incredible revolutionary spirit not found anywhere else. San Cristobal de las casas is a great city to meet and work with radicals and progressives, not to mention drink plenty of cuban rum

[RHIZOMES]

This must have been asked many times before, but has anyone on this forum actually visited North Korea?

I'm sure SOMEONE has

someone who is a leftist should visit north korea and write about it

since the only people who write about visiting north korea tend to be middle-class US imperialist liberal types"

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm sure SOMEONE has

someone who is a leftist should visit north korea and write about it

since the only people who write about visiting north korea tend to be middle-class US imperialist liberal types"

I seriously want to visit North Korea just to refute all the lies told by bourgeois media.

[Manzil]

I seriously want to visit North Korea just to refute all the lies told by bourgeois media.

What are the lies?

[Bright Banana Beard]

What are the lies?
That it is a starving to death place, and one-man dictatorship. Just because you are portrayed as God doesn't mean it is one-man dictatorship. It is trying to build socialism but they are alone since their economy will only allow co-management with North Korea under great supervision by the bureaucrat government.

[narcomprom]

haha you're such an American. Don't go to Sweden if you want to see any sort of socialism or communist country, social democracy is not socialism it is a capitalist system.

Just because Glen Beck calls Sweden and other European states socialist doesn't mean they are, I'm sure you envy our 'socialist' NHS in Britain but we are far from being socialist....
To him Sweden is sociaist, to me U.S. America is libertarian. Let's not split semantic hairs. All Swedish institutions and companies would be quite interesting to any American to see.

The collective farms of China and Israel are a fine example of successful small-scale self-organisation.

[Asoka89]

Kibbutzism is dead and it was mostly a fraud when it was founded... a racist fraud since it deliberately excluded and was used to marginalize Palestinians.

[narcomprom]

Kibbutzism is dead and it was mostly a fraud when it was founded... a racist fraud since it deliberately excluded and was used to marginalize Palestinians.
And nevertheless it is interesting to see attempts at collectivism at work. Child rearing done by the community is not something you will see on Cuba. And mind also that there are quite many of them in Israel, each with different agenda. The trade is mostly done between the communities and with comparable communities in China.

[Sarah Palin]

Visit the USA. I hear they got this new communist president.

[Manzil]

That it is a starving to death place, and one-man dictatorship. Just because you are portrayed as God doesn't mean it is one-man dictatorship. It is trying to build socialism but they are alone since their economy will only allow co-management with North Korea under great supervision by the bureaucrat government.

Well there has been horrific starvation throughout North Korea. Even the North Korean government accepts the death of several million due to famine throughout the 1990s, an horrific toll relative to its population. The extent to which, alongside the chosen form of political economy and (the immediate cause) natural disasters, this was contributed to by either historic factors relating to the North's economic development and/or the isolation which the country finds itself in, is another matter. But unless the World Food Programme is conspiring against the North by spreading malicious lies about endemic malnutrition, I don't think it's exactly controversial to say it has suffered considerably from starvation.

As to the very real dictatorship which exists in North Korea, if you believe that we can "build socialism" through the systemic application of a police state, by all means go ahead and defend it. But to deny the undemocratic nature of the regime is preposterous. North Korea is not socialist. Again, the degree to which this has been caused by matters of history and of politics is a related, but ultimately separate concern. When I look at the North I see nothing of value for socialists nor any embryo of hope. Indeed it is likely the only alternative to stagnation - economic, and cultural - throughout the north of the peninsula, is a complete restoration of the brutal capitalism which exists in the South.

[Manzil]

Visit the USA. I hear they got this new communist president.

Islamocommunist, surely?

[SubcomandanteJames]

I have to agree with the people saying Chiapas, Mexico. If your looking for revolutionary idealism, look towards the Zapatistas! Even the anarcho-communists find alot in common with them. :thumbup1:

[n0thing]

If by communism you mean self-management and egalitarianism; check out Chipas and the communes in Israel.

[Pogue]

The kibbutz are not really communistic at all anymore.

[Manzil]

Given they were built on stolen land, and excluded people based on nationality, can you say say they ever really were? Collectively owned private property is still private property, see co-operatives.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Who would want to go to N. Korea or China for that matter? Have a "helper" go around with you. Cuba is nice, would love to go again. Veitnam looks great, would go there over Korea any day

[un_person]

I plan on visiting Cuba in a few years and I was just wondering where did you stay at? do they have hotels or what?

[MilitantAnarchist]

I would want to go for research purposes i think... But i've been on 'holiday' once in my life and i went to Iowa for 3months and was homeless, spending most of my time on drugs and booze, was fun but hardly a 'holiday'... And to be honest, when i've got a job and get some money, i wanna go somewhere nice, since America the most exotic place i've ever been is Blackpool haha

[Outinleftfield]

Laos. Just cause nobody's said it yet.
Cambodia. Because of the history.
Somalia-Seeing how this former 'communist' country turned into an 'anarcho'-capitalist country. Might be interesting to look at its history and contrast that with today. They replaced fake communism with fake anarchy.

Or how about Yemen, since it used to be divided into North and South Yemen.

[ellipsis]

I plan on visiting Cuba in a few years and I was just wondering where did you stay at? do they have hotels or what?

they do have hotels, very nice ones at that. the country is much better developed than amerikkan propaganda would have you believe.

but doing it on the cheap I am sure that you could rent out a private room in somebodies house. Cubans are always looking to make some dollars on the black market. Also get out of Habana and things get super cheap. In the capital expect to pay first world prices.

[Искра]

I'm in ex-"communist" country... come here on vacation and look at all those workers protesting, starving and cuting their fingers. It's like you go to circus... :rolleyes:

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

I plan on visiting Cuba in a few years and I was just wondering where did you stay at? do they have hotels or what?

Some town about 200 miles east of Havana, think it was called Valadero. Things are dead cheap there. The hotels are nice but there is the odd play that you look at and think "how could anyone stay there?" but it nothing worse than what you will 90 miles north. People are nice to which is always the best part:thumbup1:

[brigadista]

That's if they let you back into the US after they see your 'commie stamp collection'. :D

If I were you, I'd go to Belarus. I've wanted to go there for ages just because it's an 'outpost of tyranny'. :laugh:

Cuba dont stamp your passport anymore...

[manic expression]

I'm thinking about trying to get to Belarus, which still has a lot of Soviet institutions. Anyone been there before?

[Spawn of Stalin]

I've been thinking about going solo to Belarus, as far as I'm aware you need a tourist card in advance unless you're a citizen of Mongolia, Serbia, Cuba, DPRK, Macedonia, Vietnam, and maybe a few other countries. Minsk is a fairly popular city break destination so I imagine it's just a case of filling out a form and waiting a few weeks. I'd also like to go to DPRK and Cuba.

[spiltteeth]

no ones mentioned Albania...

[manic expression]

I've been thinking about going solo to Belarus, as far as I'm aware you need a tourist card in advance unless you're a citizen of Mongolia, Serbia, Cuba, DPRK, Macedonia, Vietnam, and maybe a few other countries. Minsk is a fairly popular city break destination so I imagine it's just a case of filling out a form and waiting a few weeks. I'd also like to go to DPRK and Cuba.

You're right on many of the countries that don't need visas beforehand. However, from what I can tell, citizens from other countries would need an invitation letter (which basically means paying a Belarusian tourist company for the document), a hotel voucher (reservations for the dates you plan to stay) and an application before getting a visa. It's a bit complicated, but the process isn't significantly worse than what most visitors to the US face. If you want more info in the future, let me know and I'll do my best.

[Искра]

no ones mentioned Albania...
Because you are Western pussies ;)
Everybody know that someone will shoot you and rob you in Albania. :)
I was in Albania.
Also, you talk about visiting all those countries like you go to cinema or circus. Do you even know how people live here? Do you think that they care about few "commies" coming there to "admire communist institutions"?

[eyedrop]

Because you are Western pussies ;)
Everybody know that someone will shoot you and rob you in Albania. :)
I was in Albania.
Also, you talk about visiting all those countries like you go to cinema or circus. Do you even know how people live here? Do you think that they care about few "commies" coming there to "admire communist institutions"?

I've been to Hungary, Czech, and Romania and I didn't see any communists on excibit in any of the places.:confused:

Actually I didn't see much of a difference from western Europe at all.

[Искра]

I've been to Hungary, Czech, and Romania and I didn't see any communists on exhibit in any of the places.:confused:
I wasn't talking about "communists on exhibit" I was talking about ordinary people, which live hard lives now, and they lived them before (in "communism"), and Western "commies" come to their country and talk about "communism" while they starve, protest and cut their fingers. I don't like that. To me that's like circus, to which I was referring, but I think that ZOO would be better world, because: you go there to see how people live, like you go to ZOO to see tigers. Don't come near the bars, they'll rip you off ;)

Did you know that in Hungary you would go in jail for wearing "red star" or "hammer and sickle"?

[eyedrop]

I wasn't talking about "communists on exhibit" I was talking about ordinary people, which live hard lives now, and they lived them before (in "communism"), and Western "commies" come to their country and talk about "communism" while they starve, protest and cut their fingers. I don't like that. To me that's like circus, to which I was referring, but I think that ZOO would be better world, because: you go there to see how people live, like you go to ZOO to see tigers. Don't come near the bars, they'll rip you off ;)

Did you know that in Hungary you would go in jail for wearing "red star" or "hammer and sickle"?

Sorry, that was supposed to be a joke.

I completely agree with your points. Visiting them as "communist" countries makes little sence.

[Joohoo]

I would love to go to Cuba some day but after reading this thread I am not sure if my expectations are gonna be made real, to see them I need to visit households and factories and farms and I am not sure you are allowed to do that?

I mean someone mentioned Sweden as a viable place to go see socialism, come on, it's not like we got big posters and statues of our "great" socialist leaders or that you can see and touch the feeling of our "worker's paradise". To see socialism you need to live in the country for at least some months or years.

It is probably nothing you will see as a tourist. Sweden is not THAT exotic.

[Искра]

Sweden is not socialist.
In Sweden railway is someone's private property.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Yeah, there is no socialism in the EU besides a few worker co-operatives here and there. The EU's constitution prohibits socialism. Joohoo, the Cuba Solidarity Campaign and the Revolutionary Communist Group both run Cuba brigades, you go there with a group of like-minded Comrades, you work on restoration projects and farms with Cuban workers, visit schools, hospitals, government buildings, and museums, drink rum, learn how to salsa, etc.

[Red Icepick]

Vist East Germany, home of the former DDR, and talk to all the people who are bitter about the system they're currently living in. The majority miss the DDR. There's still plenty of monuments and architecture to see.

[ellipsis]

I would love to go to Cuba some day but after reading this thread I am not sure if my expectations are gonna be made real, to see them I need to visit households and factories and farms and I am not sure you are allowed to do that?


I never had any problems doing what I wanted. The police don't really bother tourist as the Cuban Gov needs tourism dollars. It is wonderful place to visit.

[Joohoo]

And yes Sweden is not socialistic, which was my point but did not specify, sorry.

[Lyev]

I'm lucky enough to be visiting Nepal next year. I hadn't really discovered Marxism when I signed up for it so I didn't really know anything anything about the Maoists there. It's going to a 17ish day expedition kinda thing; I went to a training weekend for it the other week and the guy giving us a talk on politics there described the Maoists as 'terrorist'.

Also it seems that many comrades are very willing to criticize past 'socialist' and 'communist' regimes. I can understand why some past regimes are so easy to refute, (eg. Stalin's sovietism, the Khmer Rouge or modern China) but I can't understand why Cuba or Lenin's Russia or maybe early Maoist China aren't at least transitionary socialism. Can someone please explain why no country has yet achieved the highest stage of communism? Thanks

[spiltteeth]

Wow, when you get back from Nepal, please tell us about your experiences. What travel agency did you use? Was it expensive?

[TC]

I never had any problems doing what I wanted. The police don't really bother tourist as the Cuban Gov needs tourism dollars. It is wonderful place to visit.


In reality, the police don't bother anyone including so called 'dissidents' apart from the actual spies and terrorists, because 1. Cuba is a democratic socialist country with minimal crime, minimal poverty, minimal income inequality 2. Cuban police are not professional bullies the way they are in capitalist regimes, they are citizen conscripts, largely teenagers, performing national service for a year or two. In America police are the worst of the worst who want to harass and terrorize their fellow human being for fun and profit. In Cuba police are essentially kids who were unlucky in their national service assignment.

[ellipsis]

In reality, the police don't bother anyone including so called 'dissidents' apart from the actual spies and terrorists, because 1. Cuba is a democratic socialist country with minimal crime, minimal poverty, minimal income inequality 2. Cuban police are not professional bullies the way they are in capitalist regimes, they are citizen conscripts, largely teenagers, performing national service for a year or two. In America police are the worst of the worst who want to harass and terrorize their fellow human being for fun and profit. In Cuba police are essentially kids who were unlucky in their national service assignment.

Again in my limited time on the island, I saw police stopping or approaching people at random on the street to run their national ID card. This included young women on the beach sunbathing. My friend and I were hanging out with a Cuban man that we met at a club (Rosalia de Castro?) who was walking back us back to our hotel after parading a dozen prostitutes in front of us despite our repeated refusals. Maybe because he was with westerners the police stopped us, didn't question my friend or I, ran the Cuban's ID, found out that he had warrants and arrested him. The man was not looking forward to jail, saying that the conditions were not very good. Another time I saw police dragging a man into police car screaming.

However, I see police questioning people, checking their IDs, pulling them over, etc. in the U.S. very frequently too. And I know that their repression goes much deeper. But to say that cuban police don't harass people is simply not true.

My post was meant to argue against the notion that many outside of cuba have about the country being lawless or tyrannically oppressive or unsafe or whatever, not the opposite. I felt safer in Cuba (and APPO occupied Oaxaca) than I do in many cities in the U.S.

[Walt]

The best answer to the OP's question would be without a doubt the DPRK. Indeed, you can visit North Korea no matter what country you're from. However, if you are an American citizen, I believe the only time you can go is around August during the Airang Mass Games.

Contrary to popular belief, Pyongyang is a relatively clean and robust city. I suggest you check it out. You will be amazed.

[Lyev]

Wow, when you get back from Nepal, please tell us about your experiences. What travel agency did you use? Was it expensive?

It's costing roughly £2,200 in total, I'm currently raising that money now. I'm not sure what travel agency we're using, there's 18 other people my age going and about 3 guides coming with us. I'm not going till about August next year, but I'd love to share my experiences with you.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Well, are those places truly communist or socialist? No.

[ellipsis]

However, I see police questioning people, checking their IDs, pulling them over, etc. in the U.S. very frequently too. And I know that their repression goes much deeper.
Literally right after posting this I looked at the paper and saw this AP (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_STOP_AND_FRISK?SITE=KYB66&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)headline:
Police stop more than 1 million people on street

Police in major U.S. cities stop and question more than a million people each year - a sharply higher number than just a few years ago. Most are black and Hispanic men. Many are frisked, and nearly all are innocent of any crime, according to figures gathered by The Associated Press. And the numbers are rising at the same time crime rates are dropping.

[fatpanda]

Why the hell would you want to visit authoritarian Police States like the dprk,china... i mean really?
Why don't you visit some like France or Japan, these countries have some influental communist parties and labour unions...

and whats with you guys mentioning camboda?you really think the khmer rouge was communist?or are you talking about the pro vietnamese puppet government?

[ellipsis]

I don't that people necessarily support the regimes of the country mentioned more that if you want to visit countries which have made attempts at communism, check them out.

[fatpanda]

none of those countries has tried communism fella.
All this Talk has been misused and abused by crazy leaders.

Sure I'd also like to visit China some day to see the architecture and the great wall, but not as a inspiration for a political model!

[Spawn of Stalin]

Coming from someone who would like to visit Japan as inspiration for a political model?

[A.R.Amistad]

Also it seems that many comrades are very willing to criticize past 'socialist' and 'communist' regimes. I can understand why some past regimes are so easy to refute, (eg. Stalin's sovietism, the Khmer Rouge or modern China) but I can't understand why Cuba or Lenin's Russia or maybe early Maoist China aren't at least transitionary socialism. Can someone please explain why no country has yet achieved the highest stage of communism? ThanksI can't speak for everyone, but I have never heard anyone condemn the Soviet Union under Lenin. The reasons for any limits on liberties during that time were only civil wartime measures. Every revolution has done that including the US (Whiskey Rebellion, Alien and Sedition Acts, etc.) Cuba is very much the same way today in that the largest imperialist menace is hovering over it sending CIA spies throughout the country on a daily basis for sabotage, right wing death squads in south Florida are trying to recreate the Bay of Pigs invasion and Cuba is being tortured by an inhumane embargo (just like the RSFSR in 1919-1921) Mao's "revolution" was a bureaucratic nightmare from the beginning. It was only revolutionary when it was led by true Marxists like Chen Dixui in the late 20's and early 30's. I don't think I even need to mention Stalinism and Khrushchevism.
The reason why so many socialist countries have fallen into the Stalinist trap, I believe, is because of a lack of International Solidarity, as evidenced by the failure of the German CP to outvote Hitler in 1933. I can't post any links, but Fidel Castro makes a good argument about this very issue in his interview entitled "Blaming Stalin for everything would be historical simplism." This is a definite must read for anyone wanting to understand the failures of totalitarianism in "socialist" countries. Personally, I think Castro may be a little to nice about Stalin than I like, but hey thats just me. I do agree we cant blame Stalin for every dictatorship that bastardises the name of communism, and I think this interview gives a wonderful perspective on what went wrong and what can be done. I also would recommend Tony Cliff's "Mao Tse-Tung and Stalinism." All of these can be found on MIA.


Why the hell would you want to visit authoritarian Police States like the dprk,china... i mean really?
Why don't you visit some like France or Japan, these countries have some influental communist parties and labour unions...

and whats with you guys mentioning camboda?you really think the khmer rouge was communist?or are you talking about the pro vietnamese puppet government?

I see where you are coming from but we must not, I repeat not confuse ourselves with Social Democracy. Honestly, we can do much better. Cuba, although far from perfect, is actually a nice place to visit and see the building of true socialism in action. Also, try checking out collective companies here in the US (if that is were you are from) to see some psuedo-soviets in action.

[fatpanda]

Coming from someone who would like to visit Japan as inspiration for a political model?

erm no dude

i meant that we should see how the working class,unions is doing there and stuff.
i do not support the japanese regime

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I would love to go to Japan sometimes they have penis celebrations.

[BobKKKindle$]

In view of this discussion having deteriorated and not being that relevant to this forum, I'm moving this to learning.

[Wanted Man]

Why the hell would you want to visit authoritarian Police States like the dprk,china... i mean really?
Why don't you visit some like France or Japan, these countries have some influental communist parties and labour unions...

And what would you learn from going to France or Japan? :confused:

[Invincible Summer]

Why the hell would you want to visit authoritarian Police States like the dprk,china... i mean really?
Why don't you visit some like France or Japan, these countries have some influental communist parties and labour unions...

and whats with you guys mentioning camboda?you really think the khmer rouge was communist?or are you talking about the pro vietnamese puppet government?

So you would rather visit a country that has "influential communist parties and labour unions," and not really see the effect of these institutions during your visit, but not countries like the DPRK, PRC, etc where "communism" (as they call it... well... maybe not in DPRK) is a daily routine?

I would think that travelling to somewhere like Cuba or the DPRK would allow one to see something much different than France or Japan, and see how their "communism" affects every day life.


Also, you don't think that Cuba, DPRK, PRC, etc have "influential communist parties," whether or not they are 'truly' communist?

[Spawn of Stalin]

CPC is the biggest political party in the world. If you want to see how socialism can thrive/fail (take your pick), China is the place to go.

[BobKKKindle$]

lol, China isn't socialist, but come anyway, it's a fucking fantastic place, especially Shanghai and Hong Kong

[Spawn of Stalin]

That's my point, there is debate as to whether or not China is socialist, hence, going to see it for yourself will provide insight as to whether or not China's particular system works from a socialist point of view.

[Holden Caulfield]

The claims China is socialist are by dillusional dillusional people

[Stranger Than Paradise]

That's my point, there is debate as to whether or not China is socialist, hence, going to see it for yourself will provide insight as to whether or not China's particular system works from a socialist point of view.

So you want him to see for himself whether a system of market capitalism can work from a socialist point of view? Seems pointless to me.

[Spawn of Stalin]

No, I don't "want" him to see anything, he is a human being, he can do whatever he likes and I don't much care because I don't even know who he is. Like I said, you can call China whatever you want, is China socialist? This is a heavily debated question. What isn't up for debate, however, is the fact that China has a lot more socialist institutions than Japan and France do.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

No, I don't "want" him to see anything, he is a human being, he can do whatever he likes and I don't much care because I don't even know who he is. Like I said, you can call China whatever you want, is China socialist? This is a heavily debated question. What isn't up for debate, however, is the fact that China has a lot more socialist institutions than Japan and France do.

No it isn't really a question you can debate. China isn't socialist.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Okay, sorry dear leader.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Okay, sorry dear leader.

You're confusing me with Stalin.

[Spawn of Stalin]

You are greater than even the great glorious hero of socialism, Comrade J. V. Stalin. You are a God amongst Communists, you are the judge of all things socialist.

Hail!

[Искра]

Red Son you need a girlfriend

[manic expression]

No it isn't really a question you can debate. China isn't socialist.

Whether or not you like it, it is a question you can debate, not only because (shockingly enough) some people disagree with you, but also because the question is far more nuanced than you would like to believe. Do I agree with you or CPC leadership on this issue? No, I don't, so I would engage in a debate, and my position in this debate would be strengthened if I visited the People's Republic of China myself and saw its society first-hand.

By the way, I'll re-read the thread to check for this, but has anyone gotten to Laos or Vietnam? Any info on that would be very much appreciated.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Red Son you need a girlfriend
What a completely uncalled for and frankly stupid remark, if I didn't have a partner, I might actually be offended by this, keep your narrow-minded thoughts to yourself, please, thanks.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Red Son you need a girlfriend

You really need one since you asked for it.

[ellipsis]

The revolution is my girl/boyfriend!

[Invincible Summer]

The revolution is my girl/boyfriend!

They haven't really been putting out lately, eh?