"United People of Luton" anti islam march

[Killfacer]

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/luton-yesterday-a-taste-of-things-to-come/

Slightly scary stuff. A load of right wingers marched through luton, clashed with officers and attacked muslim owned businesses.

More to come?

[Pogue]

I was actually going to post something on this. Its worrying indeed.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Well its worrying but we all knew that the far right like the far left would make gains during the economic fuck up. However put the four hundred at the most right wingers at that march with the shit loads of people at the g20*

*Yes I know the vast majority of the people at g20 were not anarcho-commies however i doubt despite what the press may lead people to believe that all the luton marchers are neo nazis.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I was actually going to post something on this. Its worrying indeed.

Not really.

[Pogue]

Not really.

Well only in so far as if it represents a growing trend for the far right to get more confident and vocal, especially when it dresses itself up in shit like this which aims ot appear more populist (United Peoples). Plus the fatc they are violent. Do you not think you'd find this worrying if you lived in Luton and were a Muslim?

[nuisance]

There has been a big build up to this in Luton with the anti-war demonstrations and the burning of a Mosque. The area has a massive Islamic population so many could be become a target akin to the 1970/80s. I don't really like how this could turn out with young people, seemingly men in particualr, being caught in this tornado of anti-islam that appears to be boiling up in the city.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187165/Nine-arrested-masked-mobs-march-Muslim-extremists-turns-violent.html

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Well only in so far as if it represents a growing trend for the far right to get more confident and vocal

Hardly I doubt the majority of the people on the march are far right even if it is set up by a few to be honest i think the march was made up of tabloid readers and people who have family in the armed forces.


especially when it dresses itself up in shit like this which aims ot appear more populist (United Peoples).

Considering its a hot button an they only managed to muster 400 hundred people hardly fills me with dread.


Plus the fatc they are violent.

A minority of then were violent and violence is a rather good at getting things printed. If it was another bradford style riot then i would be slightly more concerned expecially in the current economic climate, but its not.


Do you not think you'd find this worrying if you lived in Luton and were a Muslim?

Yes, I would but in the greater scheme of things we know these attidues exist and we know that muslims protesting against troops is something that pisses alot of people off and quite frankly considering the time , place and issue less then four hundred people its rather pitfall.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Oh and if you read the daily mail most of the comments (Which are moderated) are from idiots who live on a different continent.

[Killfacer]

this thread is full of cool people atm.

[Pogue]

Hardly I doubt the majority of the people on the march are far right even if it is set up by a few to be honest i think the march was made up of tabloid readers and people who have family in the armed forces.

Yeh, which is even more worrying as it shows how people might be drawn to such politics when previosuly they were not involved.


Considering its a hot button an they only managed to muster 400 hundred people hardly fills me with dread.

As we said, a sign of things to come. If I was a Muslim in Luton and I knew 400 people went out on a violent protest against Islam I think I'd have a right to be slightly edgy.


A minority of then were violent and violence is a rather good at getting things printed. If it was another bradford style riot then i would be slightly more concerned expecially in the current economic climate, but its not.


Yeh true its not as bad as Bradford, but nonetheless I don't think its anything to ignore and in that respect I find it slightly worrying that there were 400 people out and about like this from the perspective of whether or not it will lead onto bigger things. We know how the far right have a policy of focusing on areas where there are tensions in the community and exploiting it after all.


Yes, I would but in the greater scheme of things we know these attidues exist and we know that muslims protesting against troops is something that pisses alot of people off and quite frankly considering the time , place and issue less then four hundred people its rather pitfall.

True yes, but I still think its slightly worrying from the perspective of there being a far right presence on the streets, even if it is quite small.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Yeh, which is even mrow worrying as it shows how people might be drawn to such politics when previosuly they were not involved.

Lots of people have always being pissed off about anyone directly protesting against Troops and of course we knew the far right would get a boost however its minuscule in comparison to what the far left has gained for once people are sympathetic to our aims and will seriously consider revolutionary politics instead of classing us all together as an army of middle class wank stains from the SWP .




As we said, a sign of things to come. If I was a Muslim in Luton and I knew 400 people went out on a violent protest against Islam I think I'd have a right to be slightly edgy.

Me too I would be aware of when such things were planned and would not be in the area when they were. However yes it is sad that many people with brown skin in Luton are in some form of danger during these marches but that does not mean it is doomsday or any great success for the far right.





Yeh true its not as bad as Bradford, but nonetheless I don't think its anything to ignore and in that respect I find it slightly worrying that there were 400 people out and about like this from the perspective of whether or not it will lead onto bigger things.

No - no it wont this was a hot button issue and they fucked it up.


We know how the far right have a policy of focusing on areas where there are tensions in the community and exploiting it after all.

Yes and the solution to this is building a large left wing movement which is community and workplaced based and to kick the shit out of the fash to stop them from kicking the shit out of us.




True yes, but I still think its slightly worrying from the perspective of there being a far right presence on the streets, even if it is quite small.

Im not really. The only time we may see a reapet of this is when the troops parade in a couple of years when they leave afganstain and chances are they will fuck that up too.

[Pogue]

Lots of people have always being pissed off about anyone directly protesting against Troops and of course we knew the far right would get a boost however its minuscule in comparison to what the far left has gained for once people are sympathetic to our aims and will seriously consider revolutionary politics instead of classing us all together as an army of middle class wank stains from the SWP .


True.


Me too I would be aware of when such things were planned and would not be in the area when they were. However yes it is sad that many people with brown skin in Luton are in some form of danger during these marches but that does not mean it is doomsday or any great success for the far right.


Yeh but it means its something we should keep an eye on.


No - no it wont this was a hot button issue and they fucked it up.

True, I don't think the sort of people who attend this sort of demo are really motivated to keep it going.


Yes and the solution to this is building a large left wing movement which is community and workplaced based and to kick the shit out of the fash to stop them from kicking the shit out of us.


lol:lol: you don't need to tell me this


Im not really. The only time we may see a reapet of this is when the troops parade in a couple of years when they leave afganstain and chances are they will fuck that up too.

Ok comrade joe, thank you for talking me down from being worried to 'slightly concerned'. :lol:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

True.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rea0hCqZaZs




Yeh but it means its something we should keep an eye on.

Obviously especially if you live in the area. However its not a pants shitting disaster that some are making it out to be.




True, I don't think the sort of people who attend this sort of demo are really motivated to keep it going.

I dont really think most people want to keep it going there not looking to create some nazi state but just to stop muslims from heckeling soilders. Hence why its a hot Button issue that the far right fucked up on as opposed to the start of some big fashtastic campagin.




lol:lol: you don't need to tell me this


Nope but if i dont say it somone else will say something stupid.

[Pogue]

rea0hCqZaZs




Obviously especially if you live in the area. However its not a pants shitting disaster that some are making it out to be.




I dont really think most people want to keep it going there not looking to create some nazi state but just to stop muslims from heckeling soilders. Hence why its a hot Button issue that the far right fucked up on as opposed to the start of some big fashtastic campagin.




Nope but if i dont say it somone else will say something stupid.

You have the best expressive skills ever.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The SWPers are viewing the thread , man the guns.

[Killfacer]

The SWPers are viewing the thread , man the guns.

http://www.buyorkney.com/information/orkney_guide_book/img/16_scapa/anti_aircraft_gun_scapa_flow.jpg

Get em before they land.

[nuisance]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpDrgrxrR3c&feature=related

[brigadista]

the protest against the anglian troops - those protesters had a point- but look at the reaction...this is the protest that allegedly led to the United people of luton march...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXA-uQj0zfo&feature=related

[Holden Caulfield]

firstly please don't 'spam' this isn't chit chat,

secondly, it is a worrying sign of the times that such events can even happen pubically.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

secondly, it is a worrying sign of the times that such events can even happen pubically.

I dont think a couple of hundread people having a coutner demo to people protesting against the troops directly is a worrying sign of the times. Infact im kinda happy they could only muster a couple of hundred people as such an issue should have brought tonnes more people down if it was better organize .

[Holden Caulfield]

I dont think a couple of hundread people having a coutner demo to people protesting against the troops directly is a worrying sign of the times. Infact im kinda happy they could only muster a couple of hundred people as such an issue should have brought tonnes more people down if it was better organize .

There are deep seated prejudice towards Islam in this country, they have been perpetuated by the press, the government, and they are being capitalised on by fascists. It gives them a perfect platform to spew their views to a 'sympathetic' crowd, and gives them many propaganda opportunities. By protesting against Islamic Extremeists, they lay the foundations building wider anti-Muslim (as in the people not the religion) sentiments.

I'm not saying this is Cable Street or anything, but it isn't some unimportant event.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

There are deep seated prejudice towards Islam in this country, they have been perpetuated by the press, the government, and they are being capitalised on by fascists.

We know that its obvious but the fact is that despite the opportunities presented the fash really did fuck this one up , they could have done so much better.


It gives them a perfect platform to spew their views to a 'sympathetic' crowd, and gives them many propaganda opportunities. By protesting against Islamic Extremeists, they lay the foundations building wider anti-Muslim (as in the people not the religion) sentiments.

Well it does and thats the danger however with the exeption of the BNP the fash generally seem quite unable to take advantage of the situation , considering this is a hot button issue only manging to persuade less then four hundread people to protest is testimony to how shit they are.


I'm not saying this is Cable Street or anything, but it isn't some unimportant event.


Its not unimportant and we knew the far right would make some gains luckily with the exception of the BNP they appear to be making not near as many as anticipated, its kinda important but its not the pants shitting expirence we were anticipating.

Also remember that the only other time they will be able to get this many people out is when troops come back from Afghanistan.

[brigadista]

firstly please don't 'spam' this isn't chit chat,

secondly, it is a worrying sign of the times that such events can even happen pubically.


if you were refering to me how was that spam?

[Holden Caulfield]

^ I wasn't

[brigadista]

:)

what is worrying is this may not be a "fascist" group based protest

[Pogue]

they had placards saying 'NF GO TO HELL'. What NF does that refer too? I don't get what its saying.

[brigadista]

i think they were making the point that they are not people allied to any RW group

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

WTF does RW stand for?

[Killfacer]

rightwing

[Killfacer]

the protest against the anglian troops - those protesters had a point- but look at the reaction...this is the protest that allegedly led to the United people of luton march...



JXA-uQj0zfo

Yes because those protestors are behaving in a manner deserving of respect.

The flag waving pillocks are idiots, as are the moronic muslim blokes holding placards saying "ANGLIAN SOLDIER GO TO HELL".

Look at them. Both groups are entirely made up of men, singing and hurling abuse at each other. Neither are worthy of any respect.

[Holden Caulfield]

Islamic extremists who seek to divide the working class & White fascist extremists who seek to divide the working class are just as bad as each other, they can both go fuck themselves.

(I cant find the classwar pictue of Abu Hamza and Nick Griffin saying "different face, same shit" but image in here)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Islamic extremists who seek to divide the working class & White fascist extremists who seek to divide the working class are just as bad as each other, they can both go fuck themselves.
http://www.londonclasswar.org/images/sticksnew/ABUGRIFFINcopy.jpg

Fixed.

[brigadista]

those placards are no different to those seen on an anti war march and how exactly do you know those people are "Islamic extremists"

[ls]

those placards are no different to those seen on an anti war march and how exactly do you know those people are "Islamic extremists"

Mate, no one said they were Islamic extremists, if you noticed that someone just linked the video. ;)


Yes because those protestors are behaving in a manner deserving of respect.

The flag waving pillocks are idiots, as are the moronic muslim blokes holding placards saying "ANGLIAN SOLDIER GO TO HELL".

Look at them. Both groups are entirely made up of men, singing and hurling abuse at each other. Neither are worthy of any respect.

^ He's totally spot-on. By dividing communities into Muslims and non-Muslims and even worse - protests, we build a bad mentality of minority (Muslims) vs perceived minority (whites). It gives far too much ammunition to the far-right to come out and play it in their favour.

If the placards read things like (as one or two of them say) "illegal war in iraq" "fuck the government" and things like that then there would be no problem, also if every member of the community that believes the war is unfair came out then we would find that the bad mentality of "race vs race" goes away.

[Il Medico]

I find it disturbing, it seems very similar to what happen in America after 9/11. People just started attacking brown people. This type of fear driven hatred is what fascist and Neo-Nazis love to feed on. That said, I am not sure that this belongs in anti-fascism, perhaps it would better fit in discrimination.

[Melbourne Lefty]

1. this was not started by the BNP or NF, from the blogs going around the central members of this protest were a Luton Football firm.

2. I see more than 400 people in that video. and even more in the video of the earler protest.

3. this march didnt have the "NF go to hell" placards, does that worry anyone else?

4. Both marches have been made up almost totally of young males, and they look like working class young males. Why is it that right wing causes can attract militant young males up for a scrap but working class based causes dont? Lets be honest here, most left wing activists are either middle class or have left working class roots way behind them when they went to uni. Why are working class males [of all races] attracted to tribalist mentalities?

[Killfacer]

1. this was not started by the BNP or NF, from the blogs going around the central members of this protest were a Luton Football firm.

2. I see more than 400 people in that video. and even more in the video of the earler protest.

3. this march didnt have the "NF go to hell" placards, does that worry anyone else?

4. Both marches have been made up almost totally of young males, and they look like working class young males. Why is it that right wing causes can attract militant young males up for a scrap but working class based causes dont? Lets be honest here, most left wing activists are either middle class or have left working class roots way behind them when they went to uni. Why are working class males [of all races] attracted to tribalist mentalities?

Because the left continually fails to offer stuff which they want. The left campaigns on stuff which doesn't effect young working class people; like palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc

Until we are able to talk to people about stuff which effects them, we will continue to flop miserably in attracting young working class men. I'm not talking about have discussions with unions etc, because the majority of young working class blokes i know are not in fucking unions.

Having said that, i think alot of the above protest was just testostorone pumped bullshit. Look at them, if they weren't starting on those muslims blokes, they'd be starting on another football firm. This isn't to trivialise the incident, however i think some perspective should be put on it.

[Melbourne Lefty]

if they weren't starting on those muslims blokes, they'd be starting on another football firm.


good point.



Until we are able to talk to people about stuff which effects them, we will continue to flop miserably in attracting young working class men.

Makes sense to me. Talking about "Why you cant get a flat" probably would reach out to more working class kids than "Why the situation in Palestine is caused by Bankers".

Cosidering the BNP seems to be answering that question with "Because of all the brown people" and no-one seems to be countering with "Because the government wont build you one" it might be an issue to push.


I'm not talking about have discussions with unions etc, because the majority of young working class blokes i know are not in fucking unions.

I dont blame them considering how badly unions in general represent the working class these days.

[brigadista]

apparently the anti troops protest was by al - mujaharoun

[Zurdito]

The left campaigns on stuff which doesn't effect young working class people; like palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc


So the people in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine aren't working class?


Until we are able to talk to people about stuff which effects them, we will continue to flop miserably in attracting young working class men.

Why do you specify "men":confused:

Obviously the majority of working class people arne't in unions, this is the same as in any country, 30 years of neoliberalism destroyed working class organization. The question is, do you think that the organized minority of the working class is the one that has to lead the rest if we are going to see a working class which is progressive instead of following reactionary ideals?

And the point baout "testosterone pumped", well sorry, I read the news reports, and saw the posters on the demo, and firstly the posters were poltiicized and using phrases like "No To Islamism", and the interviews showed young poltiicized men who were syaing they were marching for this cause of opposing "islamism", and finally the reports say that people travelled from as far away as Cornwall to go to the march.

I think treating it as just people wanting a fight and then lookign for the cause is the classic approach they teach in school to explaining fascism, rather than understanding that it's based on the role of Britain in the world as an imeprialist country whose workers can be won over to defending a relatively priveleged role in the world, against foreigners from the old colonies.

I've actually gone to the bother of reading what racists have written on groups like "British Jobs for British Workers", etc., and a constant fear is that "Britain is turning third world", i.e. all the "darkies" are dragging Britain down to a third world level. We shoudl stop acting like racists are just poor dumb ape-like creatures, wrong, they know that in global terms, the British working class is reasonably well-off, and they want to defend that against the foreigners. Any number of wishful RevLeft posters can deny this, but any study of what these people actually say, shows that these racists have a much more material understanding of reality than many of our wishful posters on here.

I say that the left above all has to stand with the most oppressed within the working class and look for alliances within the workers movement with all those progressive workers who are prepared to be militantly anti-racist and pro-working class. If these means giving a long hard struggle against the "common sense" of the British working class so be it, because the working class is global not just British, and the British left should be for a global revolution.

[brigadista]

it also means a rejection of being part of an english culture based on England/Britain being "great" for being an imperial and colonial power and the nostagia for those "good old days"...seems like there needs to be a cultural shift on this

[Killfacer]

So the people in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine aren't working class?



Why do you specify "men":confused:

Obviously the majority of working class people arne't in unions, this is the same as in any country, 30 years of neoliberalism destroyed working class organization. The question is, do you think that the organized minority of the working class is the one that has to lead the rest if we are going to see a working class which is progressive instead of following reactionary ideals?

And the point baout "testosterone pumped", well sorry, I read the news reports, and saw the posters on the demo, and firstly the posters were poltiicized and using phrases like "No To Islamism", and the interviews showed young poltiicized men who were syaing they were marching for this cause of opposing "islamism", and finally the reports say that people travelled from as far away as Cornwall to go to the march.

I think treating it as just people wanting a fight and then lookign for the cause is the classic approach they teach in school to explaining fascism, rather than understanding that it's based on the role of Britain in the world as an imeprialist country whose workers can be won over to defending a relatively priveleged role in the world, against foreigners from the old colonies.

I've actually gone to the bother of reading what racists have written on groups like "British Jobs for British Workers", etc., and a constant fear is that "Britain is turning third world", i.e. all the "darkies" are dragging Britain down to a third world level. We shoudl stop acting like racists are just poor dumb ape-like creatures, wrong, they know that in global terms, the British working class is reasonably well-off, and they want to defend that against the foreigners. Any number of wishful RevLeft posters can deny this, but any study of what these people actually say, shows that these racists have a much more material understanding of reality than many of our wishful posters on here.

I say that the left above all has to stand with the most oppressed within the working class and look for alliances within the workers movement with all those progressive workers who are prepared to be militantly anti-racist and pro-working class. If these means giving a long hard struggle against the "common sense" of the British working class so be it, because the working class is global not just British, and the British left should be for a global revolution.

I specify "men" because that's what melbourne lefty asked. Stop attempting make me seem bad. It's pathetic.

I disagree. Just because they come out with terms like "islamism" and stuff, it means nothing. It certianly doesn't mean they're politicised. In fact they're coming out with the same breed of bullshit non entity rhetoric as you.

When have i claimed people in afghanistan aren't working class? It's just another one of your pathetic attempts to slander me. I was answering melbourne lefty's questions, perhaps you could do the same and be contructive?

[Killfacer]

it also means a rejection of being part of an english culture based on England/Britain being "great" for being an imperial and colonial power and the nostagia for those "good old days"...seems like there needs to be a cultural shift on this

Where are you from? I assume it's not the UK. It's the same deal with the Russian's, everyone thinks they need a strong leader. Bullshit. There isn't some latent love of the British Empire amongst anyone i know. It's a hack stereotype and one the left could do without.

[brigadista]

you should be in some of the pubs round here when there is an england match on...and whether i am from the uk or not what does it matter? I was saying that this is a real problem for some youth - maybe not those you know

[Killfacer]

you should be in some of the pubs round here when there is an england match on...and whether i am from the uk or not what does it matter? I was saying that this is a real problem for some youth - maybe not those you know

So when there is an England match on people wave flags and get pissed. Therefor they want the British empire back. Nice logic. it really is a tired, old stereotype.

[brigadista]

no they attack people they identify as not british

[Killfacer]

no they attack people they identify as not british

So that means they want the british empire back? Your logic is still crap.

Other countries have alot worse problems with football hoolaginism than the UK. I fail to see your point.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

no they attack people they identify as not british

Sport related xenophobia has fuck all to do with the empire or a want to return to the "good old days". Its just drunken idiocy fueled on by the heard mentality that is common with international football.

The fact this seems to be almost football exclusive as opposed to other sports shows there is something wrong in the culture of international football in this country as opposed to culture as a whole.

[Communist Theory]

This reminds me of the Mattel motion sensor babies that said "Islam is the light."
I'm so glad I stole one of those when I worked at K-Mart after they were recalled.

[Zurdito]

I specify "men" because that's what melbourne lefty asked. Stop attempting make me seem bad. It's pathetic.

I disagree. Just because they come out with terms like "islamism" and stuff, it means nothing. It certianly doesn't mean they're politicised. In fact they're coming out with the same breed of bullshit non entity rhetoric as you.

When have i claimed people in afghanistan aren't working class? It's just another one of your pathetic attempts to slander me. I was answering melbourne lefty's questions, perhaps you could do the same and be contructive?


Wow you have some real paranoia issues. Maybe you should get some fresh air if the internet has got you so pissed off.

You said that issues like Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan don't matter to working class people, but they do matter to working class people in those countries. I would also say they matter to working class people in Britain, which is my more than 1 million people marched against the war in London alone.

Only you think the protests mean nothing, btu hwy should anyone take your word for it? Did you watch the interveiws on BBC? Did you read the reports? Do you follow what racists say on their sites and facebook groups etc.? I do sometimes, and I think it is pretty obvious that they want to defend Britain (or France/Holland/Germany etc.) special place in the world, and are not just some dumb punks who want a fight. These people went to defend the "honor" of British soldiers because they are conscious patriots. Accept it.

[Killfacer]

Wow you have some real paranoia issues. Maybe you should get some fresh air if the internet has got you so pissed off.

You said that issues like Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan don't matter to working class people, but they do matter to working class people in those countries. I would also say they matter to working class people in Britain, which is my more than 1 million people marched against the war in London alone.

Only you think the protests mean nothing, btu hwy should anyone take your word for it? Did you watch the interveiws on BBC? Did you read the reports? Do you follow what racists say on their sites and facebook groups etc.? I do sometimes, and I think it is pretty obvious that they want to defend Britain (or France/Holland/Germany etc.) special place in the world, and are not just some dumb punks who want a fight. These people went to defend the "honor" of British soldiers because they are conscious patriots. Accept it.

I was answering Melbourne lefties questions about why there are so few young white working class brits in the left.

Why do you think that is?

[Zurdito]

I was answering Melbourne lefties questions about why there are so few young white working class brits in the left.

Why do you think that is?

I think it's mainly because the working class in Britain has suffered 30 years of defeat and fragmentation. This is not just the case in Britain, the workign class and the left in the whole world has been on the retreat for decades. In such a scenario it is pretty hard to argue for communism. Luckily I think there are some initial signs of change amongst the most advanced sectors of the wokring class in many countries (Britain included) because of the crisis.

This is not me defending the actual policies of left-wing groups in Britain or the world. For example I think being tied to union bureuacrats or small businessmen is not the way to make a serious argument for socialism with workers.

I hope that answers your question.

[Killfacer]

I think it's mainly because the working class in Britain has suffered 30 years of defeat and fragmentation. This is not just the case in Britain, the workign class and the left in the whole world has been on the retreat for decades. In such a scenario it is pretty hard to argue for communism. Luckily I think this changing in many countries.

This is not me defending the actual policies of left-wing groups in Britain or the world. For example I think being tied to union bureuacrats or small businessmen is not the way to make a serious argument for socialism with workers.

I hope that answers your question.

But how would you suggest this was combatted?

Earlier i was not claiming that no one cares about Afghanistan or Iraq. Simply that concentrating to much on these subjects and not on subjects which have a greater effect on their lives is not a good way to go about winning support.

[Zurdito]

Fair enough. If I misunderstood your post I apologise. I can assure you I'm not polotting to make you look bad though, what would I stand to gain, I don't even know you. ;)

I think if you are saying that there is a big cultural gap between the left and the working class in Britain, then I agree. This isn't only something that happens in Britain. I think that a committed, genuinely revolutionary party, will implant a number of militants in the working class and be patient, obviously it isn't easy to be a communist and have to go to work every day in an environment where people's opinions are very far removed from the left.

But the key question is placing your bet on the employed, organized working class, even if this is a minority in society, and not adapting to "mass movements" as much of the left has. I am proud to say that where I'm active is one of the only currents of the far left in the world which has followed this line since the 1990's (when most people thought the organized, employed working class was a thing of the past, no longer revolutionary, or "just one of many" potentially progressive sectors of society). but we now have workers leaders and are today leading industrial struggles. I am sorry if this is not a popular opinion but I think one trade unuionist is worth 10 of the kind of people who fight against Muslims in Luton, even if most of those come from working class (or lumpen) backgrounds.

FWIW yes I think that the organized, emplyoed wokring class needs to win over the more backwards mass of the working class, and the middle classes, and the unemployed, and the students, youth etc. But the organized wokring class is the driving force of a revolutionary party. A long, hard struggle within that class, within theunions, is IMO the way to begin rebuilding the left. If that means for now alienating some racist lumpens, so be it, because the left can't think about winning over the masses if it hasn't even won over the workers vanguard. And no, I don't think this is easy, I've done working class jobs and been leafletting, picketing, and supproting strikes at many more, and have comrades at many more (factories etc.), and I know how big the gap is with the left. But I think through struggle, it can and must be overcome.

[Melbourne Lefty]

The issue is not whether Iraq and Palestine are working class issues [the working class people IN those countries would probably confrim that].

The issue is about selling working class politics, and I think a greater emphasis on housing and bread and butter issues would help to build more support.

Anyone disagree?