Should the world be worried about North Korea?

[RSS News]

North Korea has staged a "successful" underground nuclear test. How should governments respond?

(Feed provided by BBC News | Have your Say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm))

[F9]

What the real question should be to get this newsbot post to fit to our views, how we respond, who fucks governments?

[Yazman]

Great, the dumb fucks are testing nuclear weapons and threatening war while their people literally starve to death.

[JimmyJazz]

Only the parts of the world where people live underground should be worried

[Yazman]

Only the parts of the world where people live underground should be worried

Ridiculous. A nuclear test is a nuclear test. Its not somehow "unimportant" because of the testing format.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Great, the dumb fucks are testing nuclear weapons and threatening war while their people literally starve to death.

They currently spend a quarter of their GDP on their military. With a nuclear deterrent that becomes unnecessary and will allow them to spend more on providing for their people's basic needs instead of trying to maintain a million man army. Pretty smart actually.

[Yazman]

They currently spend a quarter of their GDP on their military. With a nuclear deterrent that becomes unnecessary and will allow them to spend more on providing for their people's basic needs instead of trying to maintain a million man army. Pretty smart actually.

The Cold War has been over for almost 20 years. North Korea isn't under threat of invasion. In fact they were doing pretty well when they were more open to trade.

Keeping this stupid fortress mentality they have is bullshit. Maybe if there was such a thing as the cold war, I could understand it, but there's simply no reason to do it. Cuba is doing just fine.

[RHIZOMES]

No, we should be worrying about America, the imperialist power that keeps threatening North Korea (And bombed the shit out of their country back in the 50's), resulting in increased hostilities including testing fucking NUKES.

[Revy]

What the real question should be to get this newsbot post to fit to our views, how we respond, who fucks governments?

The title is from BBC News, Newsbot just grabs the headline for every "Have Your Say" on BBC.

That's why the questions always seem a bit weird for RevLeft.

[Yazman]

No, we should be worrying about America, the imperialist power that keeps threatening North Korea (And bombed the shit out of their country back in the 50's), resulting in increased hostilities including testing fucking NUKES.

I'm not defending the US of course, but they really aren't threatening war or making any militaristic overtures towards North Korea, and they aren't the only ones applying the pressure. China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan are also being equally threatening. They are threatening economic sanctions, however. Not war.

It is North Korea that has constantly threatened to plunge east asia into war - they who have been miltaristic and warlike.

This isn't the Cold War anymore. They aren't under any more threat than Cuba is.

[JimmyJazz]

Cuba wasn't named part of an Axis of Evil, following which one of the three named countries was promptly invaded.

The remaining two AoE nations accelerated their pursuit of nukes after that, and understandably so.

When you say that the U.S. isn't (overtly, publicly) threatening war, surely you can't seriously think that the U.S. would not invade North Korea in a heartbeat, if it weren't for precisely North Korea's "militaristic and warlike" capabilities.

I'm not even "defending" North Korea any more than you're "defending" the U.S., I'm just talking realpolitik. Pursuit of nukes makes perfect sense for NK and Iran.

[RHIZOMES]

I'm not defending the US of course, but they really aren't threatening war or making any militaristic overtures towards North Korea, and they aren't the only ones applying the pressure. China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan are also being equally threatening. They are threatening economic sanctions, however. Not war.

It is North Korea that has constantly threatened to plunge east asia into war - they who have been miltaristic and warlike.

This isn't the Cold War anymore. They aren't under any more threat than Cuba is.

The USA tried assassinating Fidel like 600 times

[MikeSC]

The test would "contribute to safeguard the sovereignty of the country and the nation and socialism", the communique said.

The BBC loves to point out when dangerous foreigners consider themselves socialist- but whenever some well loved socialist trade unionist or long-serving MP dies it's never included.

[himalayanspirit]

North Korea has no other choice but to defend itself against the constant pressure it faces from the "superpowers" (read bullies) like US and its followers. They have been interfering with its business since its existence. Why do you think that NK is so poor? Because the capitalists, who are the current rulers of the Earth, restrict trade with NK, boycott it for not being capitalist and create problems for it for not following Federal style central banking system (which is the curse to the people).

Now, at least these people will leave NK in peace and stop bullying them.

Note that I am not showing contempt towards this action of NK not because I think it is "communist" or even "socialist", but because I am against the bully capitalists.


Does anyone know which are the only countries that refuse to follow the US-style central banking system - which enables US to control the trade and economy of the other such countries?
Its North Korea, Iran, Cuba and a few others. Anybody can guess that these are the nations termed as "evil states" by the US and it has created lots of other problems for it already.

[Yazman]

The USA tried assassinating Fidel like 600 times

Thats right. I already knew this, I believe its around 650 or so, and an assassination is nothing like war. Remember the US did actually sponsor an invasion which failed miserably, and ever since has mostly abandoned a warlike stance towards Cuba. They mostly just "politick", and this is against the will of the international community which is generally supportive of Cuba with a few exceptions (like treatment of prisoners).


The remaining two AoE nations accelerated their pursuit of nukes after that, and understandably so.

Wrong. Iran hasn't been pursuing nukes and there's no evidence that it ever has been. They are pursuing a civilian nuclear power program. There is no evidence to support the claim that Iran has nuclear weapons or is trying to get them, and even the Iranian government has fiercely denied that claim along with many other nations.


When you say that the U.S. isn't (overtly, publicly) threatening war, surely you can't seriously think that the U.S. would not invade North Korea in a heartbeat, if it weren't for precisely North Korea's "militaristic and warlike" capabilities.

An invasion of North Korea by the US? If we were in the cold war I would agree wth you that they would, but the question I put to you regarding this is the following: In the post-cold war era, cui bono?


I'm not even "defending" North Korea any more than you're "defending" the U.S., I'm just talking realpolitik. Pursuit of nukes makes perfect sense for NK and Iran.

But Iran isn't pursuing nukes.

**note** I don't think that "the world should be worried about North Korea" like the question asks, I just think its ridiculous that North Korea puts a higher priority on such an anachronistic policy than it does on feeding, healing, and educating its citizens.

[The Idler]

Kim Jong-Il is a dim-witted egomaniac, 50 years ago the United States might have attacked North Korea under the domino theory. Nowadays, the United States wouldn't waste money (running up a bigger national debt) on invading North Korea (even without nukes) which is much further away than Cuba and not oil-rich like Iraq or Iran. You think Halliburton, Exxon or the Carlyle group want to get their hands on 2-3m starving people, some mines and farms? The only advantage would be for conventional business interests and even then, it wouldn't be worth the expense. Kim, if you're reading RevLeft, stop playing with nukes and feed your people before someone gets hurt.

[el_chavista]

In an unipolar world, where USA play the universal cop, there is only one way for a country to be really independent: some nukes to prevent from any would be imperialistic attacking.

[Verix]

the U.S. and all there "allies" have tons of nukes that they dont have to test becuase they did that in the 1950s, BUT any country with a opposing political idealogy gets nukes and the U.S. goes all " OMfG!!!!North Korea is directly and recklessly challenging the international community. The danger posed by North Korea's threatening activities warrants action by the international community!!!!! We like need to invade and take them over so they become another 'mini-america' just like japan and south korea!!!!111"
then all the other countrys who kiss americas ass go
" the nuclear test by North Korea as a matter of serious concern for the entire world and India is against nuclear proliferation"-india
"It is alarming that the North Korean regime continues to provoke the international community"-sweden
"I condemn North Korea's nuclear test in the strongest terms. This act will undermine prospects for peace on the Korean peninsula and will do nothing for North Korea's security. The international community will treat North Korea as a partner if it behaves responsibly. If it does not then it can expect only renewed isolation."-UK

[The Deepest Red]

The Cold War has been over for almost 20 years. North Korea isn't under threat of invasion. In fact they were doing pretty well when they were more open to trade.

Keeping this stupid fortress mentality they have is bullshit. Maybe if there was such a thing as the cold war, I could understand it, but there's simply no reason to do it. Cuba is doing just fine.

Has Cuba suffered a full-scale military invasion in the past 50 years? The choke-hold of economic sanctions is far more severe in the DPRK as is the threat posed by the United States and its allies to the people of Korea, both north and south.

[Dr Mindbender]

Great, the dumb fucks are testing nuclear weapons and threatening war while their people literally starve to death.


Oh dear. The shit storm cometh

*waits for KC, Kassad and This Charming man to take an ungodly interest in this thread*

[Verix]

Has Cuba suffered a full-scale military invasion in the past 50 years? The choke-hold of economic sanctions is far more severe in the DPRK as is the threat posed by the United States and its allies to the people of Korea, both north and south.

There was the bay of pigs, CIA trying to hire the mafia to kill castro, and the murder of Che

[rednordman]

I think its gone way way to far, and in this sence, I blame the USA. They bombed NK to hell during the so called 'forgotton' war. This was very hard for the NK to take. Why should they just accept that type of punishment and be all friendly and in love with the people responsible for it. Heck, iv even read that senitor McCarthy even had serious plans to use the atom bomb during that war as well, only to get quashed from seniors (i.e, the president), who frankly knew better.

If you got bullied by someone for being different and having different opinions to them, would you then sucumb to their opinions (take it that your opinions are worthless) and then be their slaves...and thank them for it.

I totally understand the situation in NK is not socialistic and the government is showing about as much compassion to the people of its country, than a human does to its feaces. But the USA did stuff to better relations with the Soviet Union during its reign. During the 80s when things were not so bad in NK, why did they not try and make relations better with NK and be open with the history then? Its been given all this time to boil up, and now that the reigime is falling apart, they are uber paranoid and probly not thinking on all cilinders.

Military aggression is one thing, but nuclear weapons is something else.

[piet11111]

NK will always be a punching bag for the imperialists unless they finally have a worthwhile nuclear deterrent and are at the point where they can say that america did everything it could do to them and now simply has to fuck off and let north korea be a part of the rest of the world free of sanctions.

[JimmyJazz]

Kim Jong-Il is a dim-witted egomaniac, 50 years ago the United States might have attacked North Korea under the domino theory. Nowadays, the United States wouldn't waste money (running up a bigger national debt) on invading North Korea (even without nukes) which is much further away than Cuba and not oil-rich like Iraq or Iran. You think Halliburton, Exxon or the Carlyle group want to get their hands on 23m starving people, some mines and farms? The only advantage would be for conventional business interests and even then, it wouldn't be worth the expense. Kim, if you're reading RevLeft, stop playing with nukes and feed your people before someone gets hurt.

Did we get any oil out of Yugoslavia? How about Haiti? Grenada? For that matter, did oil prices plummet after we invaded Iraq? I don't think you can ever know all the reasons for a U.S. intervention, although you can certainly identify some (there is never just one), and it's usually not too hard to shoot down the official reasons (the official reason in Yugoslavia was to prevent 'genocide', when an actual genocide was going on in Rwanda and the Western powers sat on their hands).

I would say the burden of proof is on you ('you' as in anyone who says NK is not in danger from the US) to show why it would have been included on the same short list from which one country has already been invaded, and another has been constantly, publicly threatened with invasion.


**note** I don't think that "the world should be worried about North Korea" like the question asks, I just think its ridiculous that North Korea puts a higher priority on such an anachronistic policy than it does on feeding, healing, and educating its citizens.

No one disagrees with that. Certainly not me. So let me clarify what I did mean. The North Korean government wants to maintain power, as all governments want to maintain power. So it is in their interest to pursue nukes. The North Korean people look at the hell in Iraq today and weigh it against their present reality, and however bad their present reality may be in many respects, at least a car bomb isn't going off every time they go to market. So it is understandable if they, too, support the government in its pursuit of nukes. Just look at what the American people have allowed their government to do, even heartily supported it, because of a little attack on some buildings with some planes. Now imagine that the threat wasn't a bridge getting blown up, but your entire country being plunged into chaos for years. Just how supportive do you think the people would be of any government claiming to try and prevent that? I was never saying that the North Korean government is awesome and its interests perfectly coincide with those of the North Korean people. But, the real interests of the government, and the support of the people, do probably--and understandably--coincide in this instance.

If the North Korean people chose to have a political revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_revolution), you wouldn't find me objecting.


Iran hasn't been pursuing nukes and there's no evidence that it ever has been. They are pursuing a civilian nuclear power program.

You're right.

[RedHal]

Iran has oil, it can afford to field a strong military. A poor nation like North Korea one nuke is enough to deter any threat. Look at Pakistan, you don't think Uncle Sam would've done a full scale invasion if it did not have nukes?

[Dr Mindbender]

Iran has oil, it can afford to field a strong military. A poor nation like North Korea one nuke is enough to deter any threat. Look at Pakistan, you don't think Uncle Sam would've done a full scale invasion if it did not have nukes?

No, Pakistan makes a convienient puppet state against Al Quaeda and the Taliban, thats why it doesnt attack it.

Pakistan's nukes are a side issue.

[Red Saxon]

North Korea may be feeling threatened because it seems they have no friends left in the world. Even China appears to be indifferent to North Korea nowadays.

I'm afraid of North Korea's fear more than of North Korea's nuclear arsenal, this fear is what could breed an attack.

[Dr Mindbender]

Apparently Kims health is failing and he expects to die soon, it could be his way of making a 'last stand' before he finally pops his clogs.

[BobKKKindle$]

Those who think that North Korea is not facing a direct military threat from the United States should take a look at the different ways in which the US has tried to provoke the DPRK since the end of the Korean War in 1953, as the sheer volume of incidents that have almost resulted in a resumption of military hostilities or have disrupted negotiations between the two countries demonstrates that the US is more than willing to risk the lives of millions of citizens on both sides of the Korean peninsula in order to strengthen its regional hegemony, and to silence one of the only remaining voices of dissent against the United States. One such event that fits into this category of direct provocations is the USS Pueblo incident of 1968, whereby a ship entered the territorial waters of the DPRK without first informing the government or requesting permission in order to spy on the coastline, as demonstrated by the materials that were taken from the ship after it was captured by the North Korean government. A more recent event that is more serious from the viewpoint of the North Korean people is the conduct of the US following the Agreed Framework of 1994, which obligated the US to provide a certain amount of oil each year as well as other forms of aid in exchange for the DPRK agreeing to use light-water nuclear reactors instead of reactors that could be used to enrich nuclear material, as a precondition for the production of nuclear weapons. The US did not fulfill this obligation despite the dire economic situation inside the DPRK, possibly because the government expected that the DPRK would collapse under the strain before they were forced to provide aid, and it was partly because of this failure that the DPRK chose to pursue its nuclear program as a way of defending itself against the persistent threat of aggression, lowering military spending once the program had produced a sufficient number of weapons to replace conventional forces, and extracting diplomatic concessions from other countries.

In relation to the above, the accusation that the DPRK's high levels of military spending is irresponsible when resources would be better used to support the fragile agricultural sector is a shallow argument, not only because the recent history of food shortages is the result of a range of factors, including the ongoing blockade, poor weather conditions, as well as the natural topography of the DPRK, but also because the military, in addition to serving as the country's defense force, has historically been an important component of the workforce as well, due to its role in repairing and enhancing infrastructure, and the help that soldiers regularly provide to rural communities during the harvest. Moreover, as noted above, one of the central factors behind the nuclear program is that if the DPRK is able to defend itself through nuclear weapons it will not be necessary to devote such a large share of the annual budget and the country's population to conventional forces, thereby allowing for more resources to be channeled into raising agricultural yields.

The position that communists should take on North Korea is relatively simple - despite the fact that North Korea is evidently a state-capitalist regime in which the bureaucracy continuously enriches itself at the expense of the working class, it is also evident that the North Korean proletariat does not have anything to gain from a US invasion, or the implementation of market reforms, because they are certain features of the economy and political system that constitute important gains, including free education and healthcare, widespread provision of cultural facilities, a total lack of unemployment and wage insecurity, as well as some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world, and it would be a defeat, from the perspective of both North Korea workers, and the international proletariat, if any of these democratic gains were lost, even if they were given up in exchange for a more liberal political system. We acknowledge that the North Korean people have the right to defend themselves by whatever means they see fit, including the production of nuclear weapons, and also recognize that the promotion of lies about the North Korean government - including the assertion that the government is run entirely by a single individual, who is "nuts", or that the government's policies are solely responsible for food shortages and the poor state of the economy - serve only to legitimize military intervention and the further isolation of the country, and for that reason they should be confronted and refuted by communists whenever we get the opportunity.

[Cymru]

I don't really have an opinion on North Korea, however it frustrates that this new nuclear program is 'illegal' as it is against UN Security resolutions. What about the Countless UN resolutions that the US and the UK have broken over the years? Makes me so angry.

[Hiero]

Apparently Kims health is failing and he expects to die soon, it could be his way of making a 'last stand' before he finally pops his clogs.

You are incredibly stupid.

You should seriously stop watching maintstream news and James Bond films.

In this world there are no evil villains ploting the world destruction.

[RHIZOMES]

I love how people think simply because the North Korean government is incredibly corrupt and stopped being socialist years ago, it means we have to take the capitalist mainstream media/imperialist conception of countries independent of the US. The conception that any country's attempts at building up defense against imperialism is "war-mongering" and "endangering the world". I say that the US is endangering the world by constantly threatening with violence countries which don't obey their hegemonic agenda. Seriously, if I was the leader of a small nation that was labelled as part of the "axis of evil" by the US along with a country they've already fucking invaded, I would be building some fucking nukes.

[Red Saxon]

The conception that any country's attempts at building up defense against imperialism is "war-mongering" and "endangering the world". It's funny, true, and sad at the same time. Basically, if any country besides the United States starts building up it's military, it's wrong.

-_-'

[Hiero]

It is also based on some assumption that the "international community" is in some state of peace and it is just thoose North Koreans who kept endangering world peace.

It is the same all over where former colonised arm themsevles to maintain their indepence they are seen as the aggressors, and some liberal leftist believe this.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I think this whole discussion is silly, and all these arguments against the DPRK are fairly weak, and shallow in premise, for reasons already outlined in this thread.

On a personal note, if I was the leader of a small isolated nation that has nobody to go to, I'd feel damn good to have the assurance of a nuclear arsenal.

[Communist Theory]

Go DPRK!!!

[Yazman]

I think this whole discussion is silly, and all these arguments against the DPRK are fairly weak, and shallow in premise, for reasons already outlined in this thread.

On a personal note, if I was the leader of a small isolated nation that has nobody to go to, I'd feel damn good to have the assurance of a nuclear arsenal.

I think the pro-NK arguments themselves come off as "shallow and weak" but to say such a thing really doesn't prove anything but our ability to exploit a fallacy.

On another note, NK "has nobody to go to" as a result of its own foreign policy, not to mention their domestic policy of "self sufficiency." Never mind the fact that for self sufficiency to truly occur with a modern economy, resources of a continental scale would be required.


I love how people think simply because the North Korean government is incredibly corrupt and stopped being socialist years ago, it means we have to take the capitalist mainstream media/imperialist conception of countries independent of the US

Its not a "black or white" scenario here with our opinions and you are incredibly naive to frame us that way, unless of course you're deliberately trying to portray us as sympathetic to the MSM. All it means is that I am not going to automatically support an incredibly corrupt dictatorship because "omg they're against IMPERIALISTS!!!" Do you support the Sudan and Zimbabwe governments simply because they're "under attack from imperialism?" I don't accept "opposition to americans/europeans" as enough reason for me to support a corrupt dictatorship that won't/can't even feed its people, let alone provide them with healthcare or educate them.

The best option here for us as communists is to advocate a working class revolution in North Korea, not to support corrupt dictators with an itchy trigger finger.


cold war era stuff

North Korea isn't under threat of invasion by the US. Like I said before - cui bono? The US has much more strategic interest in the middle east and the americas, and the elites (ruling class) would have very little to gain from an invasion of North Korea anyway, economically speaking. It has very few resources and isn't itself much of a threat, well it wasn't before it had nuclear weapons anyway.

Nobody really stands to gain from an invasion of North Korea. Not even the Southern capitalists, as a reunification of the two would be disastrous for South Korea economically even if it was a peacetime reunification. A forceful reunification via invasion would be destructive to the whole region economically and it would take quite some time to recover, and in the current economic climate it isn't even close to viable for such an invasion to happen.

[und]

North Korea will NEVER EVER go ahead with any sort of nuclear attack. They're just playing a game with the West, trying to get themselves back into a single Korean state. A game which the White House enjoys.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I think the pro-NK arguments themselves come off as "shallow and weak" but to say such a thing really doesn't prove anything but our ability to exploit a fallacy.
Your absolutely right, let me explain.

Of course most opposition to Korea comes as a result of it's 'authoritarian' reputation, and it's policy of "self-reliance". Well I'll be the first to say that Juche is a clear cut sign of revisionsim, and has little to do with developing socialism, but that's not the whole picture. The position I take with the situation of the DPRK is more an anti-imperialist one, rather than one of defending socialism (because the development of socialism in the DPRK has long since been derailed). So really, my argument isn't very pro-NK, as much as I think the DPRK has the right to defend itself from imperialism, because I don't see the current DPRK government as something to be fought for.

The arguments I was talking about that were "shallow and weak" were claims like (paraphrasing): "NK should be feeding its people instead of building nukes". This is obviously fallacious because there is no proof to suggest that the North Korean government doesn't have an obligation to feed the people of the DPRK and isn't doing so, as well as the false premise that the government spends all of it's time and money no the military with little attention for citizens.


On another note, NK "has nobody to go to" as a result of its own foreign policy, not to mention their domestic policy of "self sufficiency." Never mind the fact that for self sufficiency to truly occur with a modern economy, resources of a continental scale would be required.
OK, you know how most countries, when attacked, usually plead for the international community to help? Well the DPRK cant do this, because its the UN that facilitated the imperialist invasion of Korea in the first place. NK's foreign policy has little to do with it them not being able to go to anyone for help, especially when even China is less-than-friendly towards them.

On "self-sufficiency", such a policy is doomed to fail in a small nation like NK (in the long run I mean), but it got that way because of the isolation and it faced after the collapse of the socialist camp, and increased measures taken against the DPRK by the imperialist bloc. But nevertheless, after the "Arduous March", the DPRK has become more self-sufficient than ever before, which is somewhat commendable.

[RHIZOMES]

Its not a "black or white" scenario here with our opinions and you are incredibly naive to frame us that way, unless of course you're deliberately trying to portray us as sympathetic to the MSM. All it means is that I am not going to automatically support an incredibly corrupt dictatorship because "omg they're against IMPERIALISTS!!!" Do you support the Sudan and Zimbabwe governments simply because they're "under attack from imperialism?" I don't accept "opposition to americans/europeans" as enough reason for me to support a corrupt dictatorship that won't/can't even feed its people, let alone provide them with healthcare or educate them.

The best option here for us as communists is to advocate a working class revolution in North Korea, not to support corrupt dictators with an itchy trigger finger.

your entire argument was let down by that last statement there. How does North Korea developing nukes for defense purposes = "itchy trigger finger"? That is totally a narrative you got from the mainstream media and US "condemnations" of North Korea.

I am totally for a workers revolution in North Korea, HOWEVER this topic is not about that, it's about how completely accepting mainstream media opinions of Kim Jong-il as some guy who is going to nuke the entire world is incredibly idiotic and naive. Think of cause and consequence here. The world's biggest imperialist superpower threatens a small dictatorship with military intervention, and they you blame THEM for developing nukes? I'm blaming the US for being destructive self-interested idiots.

If I hit a bee-hive with a stick in the middle of... I dunno, a kindergarten, would you blame me for hitting the bee-hive and harming all the kids, or would you blame the bees?

[Verix]

So far iran is the only country who has not condemed the tests calling it an "internal affair" of North Korea.

[redSHARP]

I'm not even "defending" North Korea any more than you're "defending" the U.S., I'm just talking realpolitik. Pursuit of nukes makes perfect sense for NK and Iran.


there is NO concrete evidence that Iran is pursuing a bomb. they are making nuclear plants, but let me repeat there is NO concrete evidence.
multiple speeches by the heads of state say that the nuke is a weapon of mass murder and does not fit in to islamic law. A fatah (spelling?) was issued by Khameini (the guy after Khomeini) saying that possessing a nuke is against islamic code. don't be fooled by the media, their war mongering got us into Iraq, so actually read and look for evidence, and if it comes from the CIA, you might as well throw it out.

as for north korea, i could careless whats happens to them. are they standing up to imperliast aggression? yeah, but it is ineffective. the nuke will only allow the US and Korea to curb stomp them by giving them a reason. China sees the North as a hinderance to their new capitalist market and will leave them to be slaughtered. The North needs a new communist party that will be able to feed its people. politically, its a double edge sword; it makes the US balk, but once they get back onto the mound, the next pitch is a bean ball to the head!

[Yazman]

your entire argument was let down by that last statement there. How does North Korea developing nukes for defense purposes = "itchy trigger finger"? That is totally a narrative you got from the mainstream media and US "condemnations" of North Korea.

I am totally for a workers revolution in North Korea, HOWEVER this topic is not about that, it's about how completely accepting mainstream media opinions of Kim Jong-il as some guy who is going to nuke the entire world is incredibly idiotic and naive. Think of cause and consequence here. The world's biggest imperialist superpower threatens a small dictatorship with military intervention, and they you blame THEM for developing nukes? I'm blaming the US for being destructive self-interested idiots.

If I hit a bee-hive with a stick in the middle of... I dunno, a kindergarten, would you blame me for hitting the bee-hive and harming all the kids, or would you blame the bees?

Oh god, you're still on the whole "they're being threatened with military intervention."

No. They aren't. Where's the proof? I've said this a million bloody times and others have, too: CUI BONO? Who stands to gain from it? None of the parties involved, be it Russia, China, the US, Japan, South Korea, et al stand to gain anything substantial enough to justify the bloody and destructive war that would be a Korean War 2.

If you're going to keep pushing this "omg they're under threat of WAR!!!!!1111" then at least provide some evidence of it. Because they aren't being threatened with war.

And uhh... are you actually comparing North Koreans to bees? WTF?

**edit**
In light of recent news it seems quite the opposite: NK is threatening war over the sanctions and NPT.

[The Idler]

You don't have to accept the capitalist criticism, the mainstream media or invasion-mongerers arguments to realise Kim Jong-Il is a dictator and insane. Look at North Koreas own publications.
North Korean state media reports that Kim routinely shoots three or four holes-in-one per round. His official biography also claims Kim has composed six operas and enjoys staging elaborate musicals. Kim also refers to himself as an Internet expert.Sounds like a reasonable kind of guy? They have elections with only one choice on the ballot.
Radio and TV sets in North Korea are supplied pre-tuned to government stations and radios must be checked and registered with the police. All broadcast media in some way promotes the regime's ideologies and positions, such as juche, and regularly condemns actions by South Korea, Japan the United States and other nations.Perhaps Jong-Il is a little bit paranoid. After all, many countries have been attacked by the US, Vietnam even defeated them but they don't seem to use North Korean level of restrictions.
Journalists who do not follow the strict laws face punishment in the form hard labour or imprisonment, even for the smallest typing errors.[2][1] Only news that favours the regime is permitted, whilst news that covers the economic and political problems in the country, or criticisms of the regime from abroad is not allowed.[3] The media upholds the personality cult of Kim Jong-il, regularly reporting on his daily activities. Domestic media and the population itself are not allowed to carry or read stories by foreign media and can be punished for doing so. [2]. Restrictions are also placed on the foreign journalists that are allowed into the country under supervision, though many are not permitted to enter.I have to admit I wasn't aware of the extensive welfare provision but I still think Jong-Il is giving socialism a bad name.

There is also the village of Kijŏng-dong which
observation from the south suggests that the town is actually an uninhabited Potemkin village built at great expense in the 1950s in a propaganda effort to encourage South Korean defection.
The village features a number of brightly painted, poured-concrete multi-story buildings and apartments, many apparently wired for electricity. These features represented an unheard of level of luxury for any rural Korean in the 1950s, north or south, and the town was oriented so that the bright blue roofs and white sides of the buildings next to the massive DPRK flag would be the most distinguishing features when viewed from the border. Scrutiny with modern telescopic lenses, however, reveals that the buildings are mere concrete shells lacking window glass or even interior rooms[5][7], with the building lights turned on and off at set times and the empty sidewalks swept by a skeleton crew of caretakers in an effort to preserve the illusion of activity.[8]

Until 2004, massive loudspeakers mounted on several of the buildings continuously delivered DPRK propaganda broadcasts directed towards the south.[5] Originally the content consisted of extolling the North's virtues in great detail and urging disgruntled soldiers and farmers to simply walk across the border to be received as brothers. Eventually, as its value in inducing defections proved minimal, the content was switched to simply blaring condemnatory anti-Western propaganda speeches, Communist agitprop operas, Anti-Semitic and Anti-Christian speeches[citation needed], and patriotic marching music at high volume for up to 20 hours a day. This was tolerated until 2004, when the ROK government responded by erecting their own set of loudspeakers at Taeseong-dong and retaliating with deafening K-pop music. Both were eventually silenced after the combined din at the Joint Security Area became intolerable for both sides.

The world's highest flag tower[9] stands at the entrance of Kijŏng-dong (160 meters tall) flying a 270-kg (600lb) North Korean flag. In what some have called the “flagpole war”, a brief battle of one-upmanship saw the shorter South Korean flagpole at Taeseong-dong extended to 100 meters, making it briefly taller, before the North Koreans retaliated by upping the pole to its current record holding height.Quotes are from Wikipedia but are independently verifiable.

[Pawn Power]

The United States has by far the most nuclear weapons on the planet, able to blow the whole world to smithereens a hundred times over, and is the only counter ever to actually use an atomic bomb on people, which they did it twice, and moreover the U.S. is also the most aggressive and belligerent country, with military actions all over the world. And we are suppose to be worried about Korea?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Oh god, you're still on the whole "they're being threatened with military intervention."

No. They aren't. Where's the proof? I've said this a million bloody times and others have, too: CUI BONO? Who stands to gain from it? None of the parties involved, be it Russia, China, the US, Japan, South Korea, et al stand to gain anything substantial enough to justify the bloody and destructive war that would be a Korean War 2.

If you're going to keep pushing this "omg they're under threat of WAR!!!!!1111" then at least provide some evidence of it. Because they aren't being threatened with war.

That's right, because the war hasn't finished. It's merely been put on hold.

Usually I agree with you but I think you're wrong on this one.

[JerseyDevil]

To tell the truth, I'm worried about any country with nukes. Especially America.

[Yazman]

That's right, because the war hasn't finished. It's merely been put on hold.

Usually I agree with you but I think you're wrong on this one.

You are of course correct, Noxion, but I feel that we both know the war hasn't "really" been happening since it "ended."

[himalayanspirit]

Its sad to see the extent of western propaganda that even the so-called leftists are criticizing North Korea's display of aggression.

First things first: When the US, Israel, Pakistan, India etc can have nukes, then every other state on Earth also has the right for the same, solely as a measure of defense. When these countries dump their nukes, then so will every other country.

Secondly, I am quite disturbed by the fact that the former socialist/communist states like Russia and China are also distancing themselves from their former ally. Yet, the spirit of North Korea is commendable. It is fighting a lone battle it seems.

Tables are turning slowly. China seems to be getting more closer to USA, mostly due to its own trade relations with it.


This is real bad news for North Korea in fact. Soon NK will be left alone, with every other bully (including China and Russia) boycotting trade with it, and perhaps even bullying it.

Go North Korea, Go!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You are of course correct, Noxion, but I feel that we both know the war hasn't "really" been happening since it "ended."

I don't think the DPRK feels the same way - they've been in a state of combat readiness since the ceasefire began.

[x359594]

I don't think the DPRK feels the same way - they've been in a state of combat readiness since the ceasefire began.

Precisely. Which is why any attack on the DPRK will have dire consequences for the attackers.

[hammer and sickle]

At this point America is a bigger threat to itself than North Korea anyways! I dont think America should do anything in regards to North Koreas nuclear tests and why does a country with one of the largest arsenals of nuclear weapons in the world work so hard to make sure other countries dont have any? Its american Imperialism they want control!