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Rosa Provokateur
24th May 2009, 02:21
[This essay originally appeared in the first print issue of Popshot Magazine and as a slightly different version in an issue of the American Spectator.]

the “Anti-Capitalists” Have It All Wrong

Capitalism: “a distinct form of social organization, based on generalized commodity production, in which there is private ownership and/or control of the means of production.”

Socialism: a “system of social organization based on collective or state ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange…”

Statism: “the direction and control of economic and social affairs by the state.”

(All definitions from The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics, Iain McLean, 1996)

Private ownership of capital allows free-trade, free-association and therefore, free markets. (”Free” in all cases meaning “without regulation.”) With that in mind…

What the “Anti-Capitalists” are protesting is not Capitalism.

The G8, the WTO, the Free-Trade Area of the Americas, and the IMF are all objects of protest from young idealistic people all over the world and objects of scorn for the punk press. And rightly so. The problem is that none of these organizations is remotely capitalist. In fact, the system we live in today is not capitalist.

The G8, the WTO, FTAA and the IMF are all governmental agencies. They may work to expand trade, but they are not free trade advocates. If they were then why does the FTAA exclude Cuba? Why do they have to make agreements to trade freely? Free-trade is the agreement. Anything beyond that is politicking. Anytime governmental bodies get together to discuss trade, they are not advocating capitalism but statism (see above).

Free trade, free market capitalism is a system of individuals who freely associate and disassociate with whom they wish. A system in which a strong centralized government controls the economy is said to be “statist.” But the label should be far worse than that. “Authoritarian.” “Dictatorial.” “Tyrannical.” All of these globalization organizations are statist organs. They seek not to empower individual, free trade but to empower themselves and their states.

Rather than focus purely on the governments behind these globalization organs, “anti-capitalists” often go after huge corporations in their attacks. Corporations like Intel, AT&T, IBM. What do these corporations have in common? They all receive millions from the government. Our tax dollars subsidize these corporations and many others. Did we have any say in this? No. Is that a free-exchange of goods and services? No. Is that Capitalism? NO!

The muscle behind large corporations is almost always the government. Without it, many huge global corporations could never have grown so large. Instead of focusing their ire on the corporations, protestors would do better to focus on the system that allows their expansion and abuse.

Strangely, many “anti-capitalists” seek to change the system by voting for those who would expand government control. And I don’t mean Gore or Bush.

Nader and the Greens

Ralph Nader and the Green Party have gained tremendous support from the punk rock/independent community. The most recent “anti-capitalist” material I read on the web was juxtaposed with a link to Nader’s “Fair Trade” web page.

Ralph Nader has the most curious intellect. As soon as he hits the nail on the head when describing a problem, he comes up with the most idiotic solution. It’s always more government. He’ll decry the ridiculous controls and regulations on so-called “free trade” and then he’ll propose “treaties with teeth.” For example on his website (http://votenader.com/issues/fairtrade.html), he correctly states, “The WTO undermines our legitimate local, state and national sovereignties which enable America to lead the way in worker, consumer, environmental standards.” He makes other great points:

“‘Free trade’ is a misnomer. Monopoly patents are not free trade; they�re trying to convert all sorts of natural knowledge into intellectual property, 20-year patents. That�s not free trade. And the rest of it is managed trade. True free trade would take only one page for a trade agreement. How come there are hundreds of pages, and thousands of regulations? It�s corporate-managed trade. “
“I think there should be trade all over the world. I think, however, we can’t allow U.S. companies to go to dictatorships and allow dictatorship-repressed labor costs and abuses to be an asset for these U.S. companies in building products that they then send back to this country against workers and companies here that are playing by the rules.”
But what does he propose? Very little on the Fair-trade page, but one can see he doesn’t really support free-trade in his other positions:

“Health care should be provided by a national health insurance program providing comprehensive benefits to all Americans throughout their lives, and funded directly by the federal government “
“One proposal for discussion would be to raise the minimum wage to $7.30 as soon as possible, and then gradually increase its real value until it reaches at least $9 in inflation-adjusted 1999 dollars within a few years. “

“Expand and enforce the Community Reinvestment Act, which requires banks to help meet the credit needs of their communities, including low- and moderate-income areas, and use new legislation and enforcement of existing legislation to crack down on usurious lenders and other predatory financial-service firms.” [emphasis mine]

Does that sound like Free Trade? Free association? Free enterprise?

Ralph has been at this for 40 years or so and he doesn’t seem to understand economics. He hates capitalism though it’s made him a multi-millionaire. Capitalism values the entrepreneur and protects individuals. Ralph’s also an asshole. I’d like to hear his investment secrets and not his suggestions to raise the minimum wage.

Imagine this: you’re 23, working in a grocery store for minimum wage and saving to start your own indie record shop. You finally get enough to open it and, though sales are slow, you have a dedicated customer base and loyal friends to work the store when you can’t. One day, a Department of Labor Wage/Hour Investigator walks in and strikes up a conversation with one of your friends working the counter. The friend discloses that every week or two, you give him 20 bucks for working there. The Investigator waits ’til you arrive and cites you for not paying minimum wage. You can’t afford to pay your friend minimum wage so the court shuts down your business.

Sound like a free exchange of goods and services?

Thanks, Mr. Nader. Thanks, Mr. Gore. Thank you, Communist Party of America (it was their idea to have a minimum wage back in the 20’s).

When you’re a socialist who isn’t trying to start a business, minimum wage sounds like a noble cause. Indeed, it sounds like a necessity. But look at it from the point of the entrepreneur. What the record-store-owner and his friend had worked out was a free exchange of services: the friend worked the store and was happy with the $20 and discounted records; the owner was happy to pay the $20 and discount the records because he needed the labor. Free-exchange of goods and services between individuals = capitalism.

Imagine this: you decide to start a magazine. You explore all the options of raising money to make the first issue: punk rock benefit shows, advertising for punk rock labels, etc. And finally decide that you got 20 friends who are all willing to chip in on the magazine just to get it started, just to give you enough money to make a go of one issue so that you can get advertisers with the second issue. You’ve got investors. All your friends pitch in and you launch the issue. You sell it in record shops and bookstores and start lining up advertisers for the second issue. Only you’re violating State Securities regulations and now you can be guilty of securities fraud. You see only 15 people can invest in a company without elaborate, expensive disclosure statements.

Sound free?

Imagine this: you want to start a peanut farm. Sounds like fun, huh? Well, tough shit, you can’t. There’s a quota on peanut farms. The government controls them and through limiting the supply of peanuts, has artificially raised the price of peanuts in this country to almost twice the world price. Eighty percent of the peanut quota is owned by 20 percent of the growers.*

Sound free?

The problem with implementing statist, government regulations into a free-market economy is that you empower only the rich and mainstream and injure only the independent and entrepreneurial. The more controls, the more mainstream. Who can afford to pay higher minimum wages? Nike, Intel, IBM. Who can start a business with only 15 investors? Bill Gates. Warren Buffet.

The other problem is you give true capitalists a bad name.

So protesting organizations of governments such as the WTO, the G8, FTAA and the IMF by calling yourselves “anti-capitalists” is just damn wrong. If you’re concerned about that concentration of power, you should label yourselves “anti-statists” and dismantle the state power structure. Voting for candidates who wish only to expand government is not simply hypocritical and antithetical but destructive and irresponsible. Call yourself a Capitalist and shake off the destructive regulations of the government-corporate complex.

Do It Yourself - Punk Rock is Independent and Entrepreneurial

How boldly do I have to make this point? Shouldn’t this be obvious?

When I got into punk rock at 15 and 16, it was because I didn’t fit into a clique. I wasn’t a part of the mainstream. Punk rock, despite the peer pressure to wear black t-shirts and cut and dye my hair all funny, offered an escape for me to be an individual. Sound familiar?

Punk rock also offered a pretty hardcore code of ethics — like community and equality and responsibility. One of the most enduring moments I’ve witnessed was when I saw Kurt Cobain stop a show because some meathead in the audience kept groping a girl in the pit. The mainstream meathead must have had no clue that kind of thing could happen. Only last year, I saw Sleater-Kinney eject a guy who was dancing rough in the crowd. The punks police themselves. Punks take initiative.

Entrepreneurial initiative is personified in the punk rock ethic of “DIY.” Doing It Yourself is something that is only possible in a capitalist system. Without private and individual ownership of the means of production, independent punk rockers couldn’t record songs on a four-track, duplicate them at home and sell them at shows. Imagine trying to get an entire community to agree to let you use the communal recording studio.

Self-regulating. Initiative-taking. Free-exchange and free-association — the ability to associate and disassociate with whom you want.

What is it? Capitalism.

Why then do punk rockers generally advocate socialism or at least left-liberalism?

I have no idea. My gut feeling is that they’ve been presented this version of socialist statism in which we live and been told “this is capitalism.” As punks, they react by doing the opposite of the mainstream (they think) by going socialist. The only problem is that they’ve been sold a lie by the mainstream. This isn’t capitalism. The statists keep the socialist left happy by offering more and more outrageously wasteful and inefficient government social programs and keep the rich right happy by offering state-assisted advancement into the world of the super-rich. In short, they offer a pleasing, fat-and-happy mainstream.

Most punks try to buck this by agitating for more social welfare programs. The government is only too happy to oblige. Because it still controls everything.

The problems with Socialism.

Socialism is impossible for all sorts of economic reasons. If you really care, you can find a good one at www.Mises.org (http://www.Mises.org). The main problem that all punk rockers should have with socialism and statism is that in the end, no matter how you slice it, in order for those systems to work, they require forcing people to submit to the wishes of others. Individual desires and freedoms are non-existent. Individual rights are trampled.

Your work in socialism and statism is for the “common good” determined by the mainstream. And since when have punk rockers been mainstream? Why would we think our desires would be honored in this scheme?

In summation

Those who cry that capitalism fails to keep us free, safe and healthy aren’t looking at capitalism. They’re looking at socialist statism.

Take health care. Nader’s (and the Democrat’s and even the Republican’s) national health care schemes would force doctors to work on everyone for set wages. Would this encourage people to become doctors? No more free-association. No more choice. No more independence.

Not that there are those freedoms now. Fifty percent of money spent in health care is spent by the government. Bureaucracy, red tape, regulations, and government programs have tangled health care and made it unmanageable. Health care has not been allowed to develop freely. Costs continually go up, benefits go down, and waiting rooms get more crowded as the government involves itself more and more. Is the solution to put the government completely in charge of health care? No way. We’ve seen how well they spend money when it comes to toilet seats. Why would anyone trust their health to the government?

If health care were allowed to flourish in a true free-market, we would see rapid advancements in care and, more importantly, rapid declines in patient costs.

Don’t believe it? Ask your parents about the rapid and massive developments in telecommunications after the government finally ended the (government sanctioned) monopoly control the telephone industry held by AT&T. That was only in the 1980s. Did you know that everyone once had to rent a phone for about $5 a month? What kind of robbery is that? When AT&T was finally split, everyone was amazed that they could walk into a store and buy a phone for $20. And what does it cost now? It’s even cheaper for a basic phone. Telephones have more features. They’re smaller, lighter, smarter. All because a government sanctioned monopoly was destroyed and the free-market took over.

So why would we want health care to be a government sanctioned monopoly? We shouldn’t. For the politicians who propose such a thing, it’s not about health or efficiency, it’s about control.

Ask someone older about wage and price controls. Can you imagine running your independent record label and suddenly having a government official telling you that you could not raise the prices on your releases to cover your costs? Wage and price controls were prevalent throughout the 1970s. Lawyers had to travel the country explaining to companies how to raise their own prices!!! And who could afford lawyers to fly around the country? Was it the small, independent, alternative entrepreneur?

I’ll let you figure that out yourself.

Punks break laws all the time that we don’t even know about. Stupid, regulatory laws regarding how we do business with others. But at the same time punks ignorantly advocate a government that would mainstream everything and endorse politicians who only seek to empower the government to offer no alternative to its monopolistic rule. I have news for you: the establishment isn’t afraid of you at all. The suits are happy that you hate them because they’ve fooled you into giving them more power.

You want freedom? Freedom to associate with whomever you choose? Freedom to pursue your own means of living? Freedom to follow your own desires and initiatives? You want and you need free market capitalism.

True capitalism would smash the power structures more effectively, more fairly and more freely than any other alternative. It would empower effective, private solutions to community social problems.

And it would give you nothing to be punk about. So there is a trade-off — angry and enslaved or happy and free. Me? I love punk rock and all but I’d like to be happy.

*If you want to find out more about how the government wastes your money, I recommend the book, The Government Racket 2000 and Beyond: Government Waste from A-Z, by Martin Gross. The peanut farm example above came directly from that book.

Also check out the Citizens Against Government Waste on the web: www.cagw.org (http://www.cagw.org)

To learn more about capitalism, www.capitalism.org (http://www.capitalism.org) has a great site. They push their “tour” but the FAQ is much better.

For books on capitalism and free markets, try laissez-fairebooks.com.

Article by Todd A

http://todd-a.com/2002/02/25/punk-rock-capitalism/

JimmyJazz
24th May 2009, 02:29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgpa7wEAz7I


http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc101/vtm20002000/emot-picardpalm.gif

mykittyhasaboner
24th May 2009, 02:31
"Capitalist punks fuck off!"

Rosa Provokateur
24th May 2009, 02:39
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc101/vtm20002000/emot-picardpalm.gif

Ya know what'd go great with that song? A Dead Kennedys t-shirt. Wanna BUY one:D

gorillafuck
24th May 2009, 02:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhqG7Aeai3M&feature=related

Oi.

Pirate Utopian
24th May 2009, 02:46
2gcrajf9Whk

Real rebels record each song on another label ripping off thousands from each label they sign to after being kicked out for just being too badass.
Rock 'n roll swindle!

mykittyhasaboner
24th May 2009, 03:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDLBGTkLgow

IcarusAngel
24th May 2009, 03:13
LOl. Notice how Libertarians want to take what other people have created and make it their own rather than creating their own ideas, just as they want to leech off the hard work of others without paying anything, and want to steal the resources and inventions that were the collective work of various groups, such as scientists.

I admire some of the intelligent capitalist theorists but your average Libertarian is just a jackass - like the Mises clowns and the author of this article.

Rosa Provokateur
24th May 2009, 03:36
LOl. Notice how Libertarians want to take what other people have created and make it their own rather than creating their own ideas, just as they want to leech off the hard work of others without paying anything, and want to steal the resources and inventions that were the collective work of various groups, such as scientists.

I admire some of the intelligent capitalist theorists but your average Libertarian is just a jackass - like the Mises clowns and the author of this article.

Bullshit, I just thought it was a good article and people might want to read it. The guy makes a good argument and has changed my mind about some stuff like corporations; I figured they where a natural part of the market and same with the WTO but, since the State is the one propping them up and they actually interfere with free-trade rather than actually practice it, I've found that the "bourgeoise" as you call them are an enemy of free-trade and not an ally.

Jack
24th May 2009, 05:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mMTEJm0byk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1n42SDvMJc&feature=channel_page

Bright Banana Beard
24th May 2009, 07:02
This thread is awesome.

My turn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It0WKk_LY6Y

communard resolution
24th May 2009, 13:14
Impressive article in the OP - couldn't possibly agree more. World starvation, exploitation of workers, unemployment, wars for profit, sweatshops, and health care issues should definitely take the back seat when Rat Vomit, Sid Snot and Dick Scum want to open a punk rock record store in Westchester, NY and make their buddies work at 20 bucks a week.

We definitely need more petty-bourgeois punk individualism like this.

redarmyfaction38
24th May 2009, 20:41
Bullshit, I just thought it was a good article and people might want to read it. The guy makes a good argument and has changed my mind about some stuff like corporations; I figured they where a natural part of the market and same with the WTO but, since the State is the one propping them up and they actually interfere with free-trade rather than actually practice it, I've found that the "bourgeoise" as you call them are an enemy of free-trade and not an ally.
the article does make some very good points especially about the role of "our" elected govts. using our money to subsidise international corporations, it's not free market capitalism at all, but it is capitalism in one of its more extreme forms, its called the corporate state or international state, where govts serve the corporations and the state is a means to enforce compliance from its populations.
it is not statism or socialism it's more like fascism without the knuckle dragging racists and neo nazis.

Jack
24th May 2009, 21:53
Punk must be Capitalist because chaos is punk!

Kassad
24th May 2009, 22:12
Green Apostle has changed his ideology so much that I can't believe anyone takes the time to rationally address his statements. Going from being a socialist to an anarcho-capitalist is like going to a Klan rally after a Boy George concert. I'd advise people to not waste their time addressing Green Apostle's hypocritical and irrelevant ideology.

Demogorgon
24th May 2009, 23:29
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc101/vtm20002000/emot-picardpalm.gif
Great. Not much of a punk fan generally, more of a metal man myself, but I am fond of the Dead Kennedys. Too bad Jello Biafra was the only sincere member of the band though.

#FF0000
25th May 2009, 02:23
Entrepreneurial initiative is personified in the punk rock ethic of “DIY.” Doing It Yourself is something that is only possible in a capitalist system. Without private and individual ownership of the means of production, independent punk rockers couldn’t record songs on a four-track, duplicate them at home and sell them at shows. Imagine trying to get an entire community to agree to let you use the communal recording studio.

Socialists want to abolish arts and crafts, guys.

mel
25th May 2009, 02:29
And all communities will have only one microphone. And there will no longer be a such thing as a computer and recording software.

nuisance
25th May 2009, 02:34
Ya know what'd go great with that song? A Dead Kennedys t-shirt. Wanna BUY one:D

Yeah, you never really got your head around leftism did you?

Schrödinger's Cat
25th May 2009, 03:54
they require forcing people to submit to the wishes of others. Since you hate force so much, give me your address so I can trash your computer. If you lay a hand on me and break the non-aggression pact, I will fucking blow out your mind, statist pig.

Jack
25th May 2009, 04:04
Wow, this guy has his own website named after him? No wonder he supports capitalism, he's a fucking narcissist!

RGacky3
25th May 2009, 07:58
I can't believe someone started a threat about whether or not a genre of music (and in general a pretty crappy one in my opinion) is capitalistic or socialistic.

Now I would like to start an argument, is cream cheese communistic in nature or capitalistic? Perhaps it depends if it is spread equally or not.

#FF0000
25th May 2009, 08:46
Now I would like to start an argument, is cream cheese communistic in nature or capitalistic? Perhaps it depends if it is spread equally or not.

:thumbdown:

Robert
25th May 2009, 12:48
cream cheese communistic in nature or capitalistic?

Before it sours? Or after?

Pogue
25th May 2009, 12:52
Before it sours? Or after?

It only soured because it was isolated and being attacked by imperialism! :laugh:

Dyslexia! Well I Never!
28th May 2009, 06:21
The idea that a genre of music could be anything other than the political-economic system that it exists within is absurd of course Punk Rock is capitalist.

Or did you somehow imagine that PUnk rock had formed it's own socio-econoic political system people by incorruptable beings formed of pure leftism who magically eat guitar riffs and shit CD's without the need to make fans pay a penny for materials or fat fuck record exec's third homes?

The bottom line really comes down to do you think paying the capitalist record company is worth the good you do by spreading awareness of your favorite leftist punk bands message?

Rosa Provokateur
28th May 2009, 15:17
the article does make some very good points especially about the role of "our" elected govts. using our money to subsidise international corporations, it's not free market capitalism at all, but it is capitalism in one of its more extreme forms, its called the corporate state or international state, where govts serve the corporations and the state is a means to enforce compliance from its populations.
it is not statism or socialism it's more like fascism without the knuckle dragging racists and neo nazis.

But isnt statism a goal of fascism?

"Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State" --Mussolini

Thats straight from the horses mouth:D

Rosa Provokateur
28th May 2009, 15:19
We definitely need more petty-bourgeois punk individualism like this.

What's wrong with individualism? Anything that sees the individual as petty is sick.

Rosa Provokateur
28th May 2009, 15:21
Yeah, you never really got your head around leftism did you?

I did and it's got some good stuff but its not flawless. Too much anti-individualism.

Rosa Provokateur
28th May 2009, 15:24
Since you hate force so much, give me your address so I can trash your computer. If you lay a hand on me and break the non-aggression pact, I will fucking blow out your mind, statist pig.




That'd be aggression against my property and I'd be legally entitled to shoot you.

Schrödinger's Cat
28th May 2009, 21:05
That'd be aggression against my property and I'd be legally entitled to shoot you.

Legally?

communard resolution
28th May 2009, 22:49
What's wrong with individualism? Anything that sees the individual as petty is sick.

Petty-bourgeois individualism. It's when people like you or the airhead punk rocker whose article you posted believe that the world somehow revolves around them and their petty individualistic aspirations.

Petty-bourgeois punk individualism is a term that said article inspired me to invent. Look at is as a combination of the above phenomenon with the sad obsession to evaluate things by how "punk" they are.

RGacky3
29th May 2009, 09:28
I did and it's got some good stuff but its not flawless. Too much anti-individualism.

Yup, you have no idea.


Originally Posted by Green Apostle http://www.revleft.com/vb/punk-rock-capitalism-t109608/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/punk-rock-capitalism-t109608/showthread.php?p=1455787#post1455787)
That'd be aggression against my property and I'd be legally entitled to shoot you. Legally?

X2, I would love to hear your explination.

Rosa Provokateur
29th May 2009, 15:32
Legally?

Yeah; if you assault my property then I have the right to protect it and that might mean lethal force.

Rosa Provokateur
29th May 2009, 15:34
Petty-bourgeois individualism. It's when people like you or the airhead punk rocker whose article you posted believe that the world somehow revolves around them and their petty individualistic aspirations.

Petty-bourgeois punk individualism is a term that said article inspired me to invent. Look at is as a combination of the above phenomenon with the sad obsession to evaluate things by how "punk" they are.

I like it. I think I'll get a t-shirt made: "My other Anarchist is a Petty-bourgeois punk individualist":D

Rosa Provokateur
29th May 2009, 15:35
Yup, you have no idea.





So explain it to me, what's wrong with individualism. Why is personal ambition so bad?

communard resolution
29th May 2009, 17:11
I like it. I think I'll get a t-shirt made: "My other Anarchist is a Petty-bourgeois punk individualist":D

I think you should get one made that says "I'm the most confused guy that ever went on revleft."

Kronos
29th May 2009, 17:45
I don't think it was DM that screwed up revolution. I used to think along some of the same lines as Rosa- that nonsense can only result in confused failure.

No, I've changed my mind. I think "punk rock" has been the single most detrimental force against revolution the world has ever experienced.

How the most horrible sounding, monotonous, repetitive crunching, slashing and bashing could result in anything but a brain lesion is beyond me. No wonder there is no revolution. All the revolutionaries are brain dead.

Kronos
29th May 2009, 17:50
Exhibit A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQznRi6Nt7I

Kronos
29th May 2009, 18:01
Here are a couple from Mahavishnu Orchestra which should help the healing process. I should warn you that this stuff is very compositional. Complicated meters and melodic counter pointing, and the musicians are actually talented. It won't bite you so don't be afraid. It might actually impress you...if you have the right ears and know what to listen for, that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_bkS5VVaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU4yAk6qYUs

I want revolutionaries to keep their vital energy and aggression, but they must must understand that there is intricacy and finesse in power. Being loud and fast is not enough.

You are the "Birds of Fire", my friends, and for the bourgeois you have only "One Word".

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 00:51
Here are a couple from Mahavishnu Orchestra which should help the healing process. I should warn you that this stuff is very compositional. Complicated meters and melodic counter pointing, and the musicians are actually talented. It won't bite you so don't be afraid. It might actually impress you...if you have the right ears and know what to listen for, that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_bkS5VVaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU4yAk6qYUs

I want revolutionaries to keep their vital energy and aggression, but they must must understand that there is intricacy and finesse in power. Being loud and fast is not enough.

You are the "Birds of Fire", my friends, and for the bourgeois you have only "One Word".

Good bass on the first one but it sounds too frantic, like they where high or where just screwing around.

The second one is good but way too quiet. The speed and rythm of it fantastic though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN13IY5beZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PnCiebNaOo

IcarusAngel
30th May 2009, 00:56
Why don't you take it to an anarcho-capitalist site where they also are ignorant of politics and try and steal ideas from leftists?

Anti-state would be a good place to point your browser to.

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 01:30
Why don't you take it to an anarcho-capitalist site where they also are ignorant of politics and try and steal ideas from leftists?

Anti-state would be a good place to point your browser to.

Because I've the right to be here until the owners tell me otherwise. I like the people here and I like the diversity, I'm basically a leftist except where economics are concerned. I'll check out anti-state, thanks:)

Jack
30th May 2009, 03:05
I think I've seen Kronos wearing a scarf, drinking PBR, and name dropping obscure bands whilst wearing overly thick glasses.

Pretentious.

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 03:49
I think I've seen Kronos wearing a scarf, drinking PBR, and name dropping obscure bands whilst wearing overly thick glasses.

Pretentious.

I've read a little bit about Kronos and have gotta say not only is he funny and smart as hell but he's probably the only person who here with no reason to be restricted. I'm restricted because I'm a capitalist; I understand it's the site policy and not a punishment but helps to keep the boards clean of un-wanted opinions (more power to the ownership for keping such a thorough eye on things by the way), a hardcore commie like Kronos has no reason to be stuck here. He's too good for it and doesnt fit the profile.

Jack
30th May 2009, 05:03
You're thinking of RGacky, not Kronos.

Bilan
30th May 2009, 06:03
Yeah; if you assault my property then I have the right to protect it and that might mean lethal force.

Who gives you this right? Is this right universal?

Bilan
30th May 2009, 06:05
You're not a punk, and I doubt you have any interaction with the actual punk scene. You're just a little shit.

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:26
Who gives you this right? Is this right universal?

Yeah it's universal, all rights are universal otherwise they're not worth fighting for. The farmer and mechanic have as much right to defend what's theirs as would and factory owner or car-salesman.

In my opinion, that kind of freedom is common-sense. Property is all about well-fare (not well-fare like what the State is providing to the un-employed but well-fare as in benefitting). The well-fare can either be as a means of extra-prosperity, livelihood, happiness, etc. Now if I've obtained such well-fare through non-coercive means either by making an agreed trade with the owner or by creating it myself or by putting to use some resources that nobody was holding title to, etc. then shouldnt I be allowed to protect it when somebody comes to steal it or damage it.

Common-sense is to protect your well-fare. Common-sense is to protect your property. It's a universal right.

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:29
You're not a punk, and I doubt you have any interaction with the actual punk scene. You're just a little shit.

How do you know if I am or not? I may not get drunk off my ass or beat the shit out of people and call it dancing but I embrace the D.I.Y. ethic, anti-authoritarianism, individualism, and community involvement. Everything that (to me) punk-rock stands for.

Most people call the stuff I listen to shit so I'll take that as a compliment.

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:30
You're thinking of RGacky, not Kronos.

You sure? Hmm, either way I've had run-ins with RGacky and I dont think he needs to be restricted either. What're they in for?

Jack
30th May 2009, 21:31
How do you know if I am or not? I may not get drunk off my ass or beat the shit out of people and call it dancing but I embrace the D.I.Y. ethic, anti-authoritarianism, individualism, and community involvement. Everything that (to me) punk-rock stands for.

Most people call the stuff I listen to shit so I'll take that as a compliment.

Sounds more like what leftism stands for.

#FF0000
30th May 2009, 21:35
You sure? Hmm, either way I've had run-ins with RGacky and I dont think he needs to be restricted either. What're they in for?

He's anti-abortion

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:37
Sounds more like what leftism stands for.

Call it what you will. I have nothing against the Left or Leftists, I just like the idea of private property and believe I should be able to start and own my own business if I want. Alot of people have told me this contradicts the revleft party-line so I figured I'd do better in OI.

#FF0000
30th May 2009, 21:38
Call it what you will. I have nothing against the Left or Leftists, I just like the idea of private property and believe I should be able to start and own my own business if I want. Alot of people have told me this contradicts the revleft party-line so I figured I'd do better in OI.

It contradicts leftism

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:38
He's anti-abortion

Cant imagine why. Her body, her choice. What about Kronos?

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:39
It contradicts leftism

Well maybe that part of Leftism is wrong. I can understand your frustration with CEO's and the like but small-business never hurt anybody.

#FF0000
30th May 2009, 21:46
Well maybe that part of Leftism is wrong. I can understand your frustration with CEO's and the like but small-business never hurt anybody.

They actually tend to be even worse than big companies. In order to stay competitive, they push their workers farther. Lower pay, less benefits, worse hours. It seems to me that you're not familiar with working.

And my political views don't stem from some childish frustration towards the man, boyo. I actually started getting into politics as, ironically, a classical liberal. Then I actually started paying attention to reality and realized that there is a difference in power between people who own property and people who do not.

People with money have more opportunity to make money, and are freer than those without it. This basic fact is why anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron, and why the whole idea of it is so fucking stupid

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 21:57
They actually tend to be even worse than big companies. In order to stay competitive, they push their workers farther. Lower pay, less benefits, worse hours. It seems to me that you're not familiar with working.

And my political views don't stem from some childish frustration towards the man, boyo. I actually started getting into politics as, ironically, a classical liberal. Then I actually started paying attention to reality and realized that there is a difference in power between people who own property and people who do not.

People with money have more opportunity to make money, and are freer than those without it. This basic fact is why anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron, and why the whole idea of it is so fucking stupid

Sometimes but not always. Working in small business, the owner and employee usually have a better relationship and share more power in operation, etc. In order to make a profit you've gotta work, if you're not committed to making money then dont get the job in the first place... especially if you dont like the hours. Bargaining the hours is also an option; I can trade hours with a fellow employee or bargain with my manager, both which through personal experience I can say actually work.

Never said it was childish; Marxism is complex and I admire that. I was in the YCL, I did activist work for the Communist Party all the way up to my sophomore year. I just dont see why I should give up what I've earned.

Everyone has opportunity, this is America after-all. My parents never went to college; my dad was in Vietnam and my mom only went to nursing school but through work they've gone from working-clas to upper-middle class, just a step below your bourgeosie. If they can make it, anyone can make it.

Jack
30th May 2009, 21:58
He's anti-abortion

How would that work with him being an anarchist?

#FF0000
30th May 2009, 22:10
Sometimes but not always. Working in small business, the owner and employee usually have a better relationship and share more power in operation, etc. In order to make a profit you've gotta work, if you're not committed to making money then dont get the job in the first place... especially if you dont like the hours. Bargaining the hours is also an option; I can trade hours with a fellow employee or bargain with my manager, both which through personal experience I can say actually work.

Never said it was childish; Marxism is complex and I admire that. I was in the YCL, I did activist work for the Communist Party all the way up to my sophomore year. I just dont see why I should give up what I've earned.

Everyone has opportunity, this is America after-all. My parents never went to college; my dad was in Vietnam and my mom only went to nursing school but through work they've gone from working-clas to upper-middle class, just a step below your bourgeosie. If they can make it, anyone can make it.

Are you fucking kidding me. You're going to respond to me with the fucking Horatio Alger myth?

If everyone could make it, then everyone would. Nobody wants to be poor. Dear god what a stupid argument.

But, whatever, lets take your imbecilic world-view for granted, and lets say that everybody did everything right and nobody was lazy and worked as hard as they had to to achieve a middle-class lifestyle.

How would society function with everyone on the planet making $50,000+ a year? Would it?

No. It wouldn't. It isn't even remotely feasible. Society* needs a poor, working class to survive, like it has now. And no, people today aren't of the working poor because they're lazy. If that were true, they wouldn't be the working poor. They'd be fucking homeless, because low-paying jobs are among the hardest, dirtiest, most tedious, and most physically demanding jobs, on average, and living as the working poor is absurdly emotionally and psychologically taxing.

Listen boyo, Anarcho-Capitalism might sound nice, with its high-minded talk of individual freedom and state oppression. However, they conveniently leave out how classes affect individual health and freedom, and the role economic status plays in oppression. My suggestion is, if you're still in high school, take a Sociology course as an elective. Ditto if you're in college. It's a soft-science (A baby science :3) to be sure, but it'll give you some insight into how society functions, and how oppression operates with or without a state. Take a psychology course as well, boyo.

*EDIT: I misspoke here. I mean "society as it is now"

Rosa Provokateur
30th May 2009, 22:37
Society needs a poor, working class to survive, like it has now. And no, people today aren't of the working poor because they're lazy. If that were true, they wouldn't be the working poor. They'd be fucking homeless, because low-paying jobs are among the hardest, dirtiest, most tedious, and most physically demanding jobs, on average, and living as the working poor is absurdly emotionally and psychologically taxing.

Listen boyo, Anarcho-Capitalism might sound nice, with its high-minded talk of individual freedom and state oppression. However, they conveniently leave out how classes affect individual health and freedom, and the role economic status plays in oppression. My suggestion is, if you're still in high school, take a Sociology course as an elective. Ditto if you're in college. It's a soft-science (A baby science :3) to be sure, but it'll give you some insight into how society functions, and how oppression operates with or without a state. Take a psychology course as well, boyo.

Based on that, how do you propose a classless society would function or even come into existence for that matter?

I'm in Sociology, I think the conflict-theorists are too simplistic in their out-look. They hold valid points but not everything is a fight, there's un-equality but we both know that it's most-likely not intentional and that class-war isnt as cut-and-dry as you guys'd like to think. If it where I think yall would be out in the street with guns instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong and only the Left is absolute.

Bilan
2nd June 2009, 11:46
How do you know if I am or not? I may not get drunk off my ass or beat the shit out of people and call it dancing but I embrace the D.I.Y. ethic, anti-authoritarianism, individualism, and community involvement. Everything that (to me) punk-rock stands for.

This proves your isolation from it.
You uphold things you don't understand (and treat them as capitalism, due primarily to your own vulgar [and more importantly, incorrect] understanding of capitalism) and that you've had no association with whatsoever.



Most people call the stuff I listen to shit so I'll take that as a compliment.

Don't. It's not one. I was into punk for years, and the crap you listen to is yuppie punk shit.
It's as shallow as those who like only the exploited, NOFX, and the Misfits, but have never heard of the underground punk bands like Depression, Civil Dissident, Crass, the Business, and Discharge. Punks who aren't totally full of shit are aware of their own scene as well and underground bands, and have some stronger understanding of DIY politics and so on. Simply put, if you put to punks here that Punk is Capitalism you'd probably get a punch in the face.

Bilan
2nd June 2009, 11:54
I'm in Sociology,

Seriously?



I think the conflict-theorists are too simplistic in their out-look.
They hold valid points but not everything is a fight, there's un-equality but we both know that it's most-likely not intentional and that class-war isnt as cut-and-dry as you guys'd like to think.

Firstly, it's inequality. Secondly, the perpetuation of the subordination of the working class has a structural basis; it is not a question of philanthropy or individual prejudice or individual-victimization, but an intrinsic part of capitalism, indeed, the exploitation of labour is the basis of its perpetuated existence (as well as nature).
They're not simplistic: the charge depicts the accuser, rather than the accussed.

Further, the presumption (because what you think is not empirically based, it's an arbitrairy judment) that it's not 'cut and dry' is meaningless and stupid.

Your argument is as bad as your spelling. It's tedious.


If it where I think yall would be out in the street with guns instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong and only the Left is absolute.

RGacky3
2nd June 2009, 12:12
So explain it to me, what's wrong with individualism. Why is personal ambition so bad?

Who ever said anything was wrong with individualism? Who said anything is wrong with personal ambition? Communism allows more individualism and more personal ambition than Capitalism (cappitalism allows it for maybe 5% of the population, communism wants it for everyone). So who are you arguing against?


I think I've seen Kronos wearing a scarf, drinking PBR, and name dropping obscure bands whilst wearing overly thick glasses.

Pretentious.

hopeing one day someone will see the absolute genius that he is, as long as he dresses the part, hangs out in cafes, and reads nietzche holding the book up so everyone can see what he's reading, and hopefully ask him about it. don't forget the barret and turtle neck, and use of words he looked up in a thesourus to look more philisophical and smarter than everyone else.


Common-sense is to protect your well-fare. Common-sense is to protect your property. It's a universal right.

First of all, its not common sense, look at the intelectual property fiasco, land and water rights fights in latin America, worker takeovers in argentina and ownership battles, its not common sense at all, infact it takes a lot of laws and twisting of logic to have it. Most American Indians had no idea what property even was.

Also, slavery also used to be common sense, moreso than property.


Well maybe that part of Leftism is wrong. I can understand your frustration with CEO's and the like but small-business never hurt anybody.

Big businesses and small ones come from the same place and are supported by the same system.


I'm in Sociology, I think the conflict-theorists are too simplistic in their out-look. They hold valid points but not everything is a fight, there's un-equality but we both know that it's most-likely not intentional and that class-war isnt as cut-and-dry as you guys'd like to think. If it where I think yall would be out in the street with guns instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong and only the Left is absolute.

For Gods sake how could you be so dumb. CAPITALISM IS A CONFLICT SYSTEM, A CLASS SYSTEM.

People ARE in the streets, and many are getting beaten, shot, blacklisted, fired, inprisoned and so on and so forth.

#FF0000
2nd June 2009, 17:24
there's un-equality but we both know that it's most-likely not intentional

Bilan already destroyed this point. Of course it isn't intentional. It's just a part of the system. That's why we propose to change it.


and that class-war isnt as cut-and-dry as you guys'd like to think.

Who said class war was cut-and-dry? Whoever thinks that society and class is a simple matter is a fool.


If it where I think yall would be out in the street with guns instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong and only the Left is absolute.

What does this mean

Jack
4th June 2009, 02:02
American Indians had no concept of property because they were at a different stage in their historical development, not because they were benign and peaceful or anything of the sort.

TheFutureOfThePublic
8th July 2009, 20:19
Punk can be whatever you want it to be.That was the whole point

Rosa Provokateur
9th July 2009, 20:39
Punk can be whatever you want it to be.That was the whole point

Kudos to the new guy:D

534634634265
9th July 2009, 20:40
i'll add my two cents.

most of the punkrock anarchist types i know are either very aware and active in politics, or are content to get shitfaced and graffiti circle-A's on everything. the first group has an understanding of what punk is(to them) and what it's about in the world. the second has an understanding that you can get drugs and booze at the punk rock show, and their parents can't do anything about it.

the first group are, in my experience, working quietly and consistently in their pursuit of societal change. running infoshops, organizing actions, rallies, and concerts, even things as basic as food outreach to the homeless. they may not be organized into national parties with hard numbers on membership, but they'll be out in the streets when the opportunity arises. they work and live(hopefully) what they preach.

the second type are the ones that possess that sort of individualistic bohemian drop-out mentality that people associate with punks, or kids, or blacks, or a variety of other groups of people.(justly or not) they won't go to meetings to plan an action, but will ***** about how the cops keep them down, or how a black bloc would have been totally bad-ass and fucked shit up at that last rally they didn't attend so they could score some drugs. punk has, in its embracing anti-authoritarianism, legitimized the disregard of accountability and responsibility for lots of angsty fuck ups.

ya, i've got some bitterness.:(

communard resolution
9th July 2009, 22:07
i'll add my two cents.

most of the punkrock anarchist types i know are either very aware and active in politics, or are content to get shitfaced and graffiti circle-A's on everything.

To be honest, the latter are much closer to the very early, initial wave of punk which was really just about nihilism, decadence, and a no future outlook. Of course, with this kind of attitude you're going nowhere fast, except to

a) self-destruction or
b) eventual 'growing up' and 'acting your age' but with the egocentric take-no-prisoners individualism left intact, which is why early punk was a training ground for many future entrepreneurs or
c) eventual conversion to neo-fascism, which is what happened to the Skrewdriver contingent

I don't think any of the three are of any value to humanity.

It's a good thing The Clash came around and had such a positive and lasting influence on a large chunk of the punk movement.

Jack
10th July 2009, 01:53
Crass not Clash.

A_Ciarra
10th July 2009, 09:33
Punk {{{cough}}} phony insurrectionary anarchists.

A_Ciarra
10th July 2009, 09:33
Now the Clash, that's class!!! Not in the sense of sociology, but true class...

Rosa Provokateur
10th July 2009, 12:43
Ramones, Sex Pistols, Casualties, Minor Threat. Everything else is shit.

#FF0000
10th July 2009, 18:49
Ramones and Sex Pistols are painfully mediocre.

The Clash. The only band that matters.

communard resolution
10th July 2009, 18:57
Ramones, Sex Pistols, Casualties, Minor Threat. Everything else is shit.

So why even give us that whole lecture on punk when your knowledge clearly doesn't extend beyond a handful of bands that are not 'shit'?

Anyone who calls themselves Green Apostle is instantly disqualified from having anything to do with punk anyway. The original punks would have you tarred and feathered for that moniker.

Incendiarism
10th July 2009, 21:26
Jawbreaker, Les Thugs, The Eat, The Essentials, Bent Outta Shape, Channel 3, Misfits, Rudimentary Peni

TheFutureOfThePublic
3rd August 2009, 19:21
Ramones, Sex Pistols, Casualties, Minor Threat. Everything else is shit.

Well I could go on all day about punk bands that arent shit.A few are Black Flag,The Clash,Motorhead (if your that open minded to see behind critical labeling),The Jam,The Cure (new wave,post-punk,punk,same thing),Bad Brains,Misfits,The Stooges.You get the picture.Dont get me wrong, the ones you mentioned are great bands but only the pistols if you mean John Lydon,Paul Cook,Steve Jones,Glenn Matlock.Not that junkie Sid Vicious.And the ones that are shit, anything that has skate infront of it.Or just anything you see on the Vans Warped Tour lol.ESPECIALLY GREEN DAY!!!:cursing:

StalinFanboy
4th August 2009, 02:04
Ramones, Sex Pistols, Casualties, Minor Threat. Everything else is shit.
This is part of the reason why you suck.

The only good band you listed was Minor Threat.