30% for Socialism

[Il Medico]

I heard that a recent poll found that 30% of Americans under the age of 30 think that Socialism is better than capitalism. If that is true I wonder why the socialist candidate only got 10,000 votes. Perhaps now is the time to make a more forceful appearance on the American political stage. What do you guys think about taking action, or do you even think these numbers are valid? I would like feedback, especially from my fellow Americans.

[GPDP]

Well, first of all, what does "socialism" mean in this context? Is it "what they have over there in Sweden" i.e. an extended welfare state? Or is it the taking over of the means of production by the working class?

I'm inclined to believe it's the former.

Still, it's encouraging to see a large number of people are not satisfied with the current system, and are seeking an alternative, even if it comes under the name of "socialism," an achievement in itself, considering the decades of Cold War propaganda.

[gorillafuck]

A lot of them probably think socialism is what Sweden is, to be honest. Though it's superb to see there's less stigma against the word.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm not certain that social-democracy is even possible in the United States. It doesn't matter that Sweden isn't actually socialist, Americans tend to perceive it that way and they exaggerate in their mind the extent to which it really is socialist. The fact that 30% of the population or whatever thinks a system that they perceive as in many ways antithetical to the current one and which they hear constantly maligned in the media shows that more people are becoming independently engaged in questions of politics and many of those people are likely beginning to learn more about socialist ideas.

[Audeamus]

Unless I am mistaken, the poll in question did not define what type of "socialism" they were polling about. As the recent presidential election in the U.S. shows, the word is tossed around so much that it has lost all meaning. To the mind of the average American, it seems socialism means little more than government spending and regulation. At best, I think this poll shows a dissatisfaction with unfettered capitalism.

[Zazaban]

People in the US think that Obama is a socialist. I highly doubt they were referring to actual socialism.

[The Douche]

Such a poll and the recent election of Obama despite the constant screaming of socialism (even if it was misused) still demonstrate that a large number of Americans are, at least, not afraid of the word.

I can see the difference, a few years ago if I said I was a socialist people thought I was insane, now they think I support Obama, and are fascinated to find out that I don't.

[Zazaban]

I personally think it might be a good idea to dump the term. Nobody knows what it is anymore, it can basically refer to anything left of republicanism, and even some stuff right of republicanism. Somebody tried to argue that Libertarianism was socialist and I felt a chill down my very soul.

[ZeroNowhere]

This was posted earlier. They didn't define 'socialism', and it's most probable that most of the 'socialists' were reformists and Obamaites.

[redarmyfaction38]

I heard that a recent poll found that 30% of Americans under the age of 30 think that Socialism is better than capitalism. If that is true I wonder why the socialist candidate only got 10,000 votes. Perhaps now is the time to make a more forceful appearance on the American political stage. What do you guys think about taking action, or do you even think these numbers are valid? I would like feedback, especially from my fellow Americans.
in germany recent capitalist sponsored "opinion polls" found that some 65% of the population favoured socialism over capitalism.
trouble is mate, how many of those 65% look beyond the "democratic system" to provide "socialism"?
not many.
in america, however, if you have 30% of under 30s looking at socialism as the answer to their problems, they have already stepped outside the "democratic system" and the low turnout for elected "socialist candidates" probably reflects this.
in many ways, from a european viewpoint, america is politically "backward", but sometimes this "backwardness" actually works in our favour, already sure of the failure of the capitalist parties to provide, the american working class quickly leaps to revolutionary conclusions in advance of our supposedly more politically aware working class tied to parties that have long since served our needs.
in the heart of capital there will be an uprising!
go for it!

[ZeroNowhere]

in america, however, if you have 30% of under 30s looking at socialism as the answer to their problems, they have already stepped outside the "democratic system" and the low turnout for elected "socialist candidates" probably reflects this.More likely is that most of them voted or supported the Democrats or Greens. Or Brian Moore, I suppose, since he wasn't a socialist candidate.

[Angry Young Man]

I'll be the first optimist since Cpt Jack and say that it is an opportunity to explain what socialism properly speaking is

[redarmyfaction38]

I'll be the first optimist since Cpt Jack and say that it is an opportunity to explain what socialism properly speaking is
i'll go with you mate, too much defeatism and lack of understanding an opportunity when you see one.
if workers are thinking about a "socialist" alternative regardless of what they think it is, they are thinking and wide open to being educated into what socialism really is and having a go at creating it. imo.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well at least this means there is less hostility to the word socialism, that's a good thing in itself. This gives us a better chance of educating people on actual socialism.

[bolshevik butcher]

This is significant because it demonstrates a complete ideological failure for capitalism, with rising unemployment and the global capitalist crisis American youth are starting to question the system itself. That was communicated through the election of Obama on a policy of change, of course he won't deliver. In the long run this will only fuel the further radicalisation of the American working class and drive it away from the two main bourgeois parties. A lot is dependent not only on the existing struggles to come but the ability of the American left to reach even the most advanced layers of these youth who are coming to these conclusions.

[Il Medico]

More likely is that most of them voted or supported the Democrats or Greens. Or Brian Moore, I suppose, since he wasn't a socialist candidate.
I know Brian, he is a socialist and ran under the Socialist Party USA ticket. He is not a Marxist but shares many of our views, if my conversations with him give me any insight.

[redSHARP]

I personally think it might be a good idea to dump the term. Nobody knows what it is anymore, it can basically refer to anything left of republicanism, and even some stuff right of republicanism. Somebody tried to argue that Libertarianism was socialist and I felt a chill down my very soul.


well not to burst your bubble, but there are libertarian socialist out there. they are basically anarcho-communists from what i can gather.:lol:

but to the point, the term socialism is a hollow word. of course out of the 30%, some probably jumped ship to the left, but i think the poll is out of context; i.e. "what sweden has" style of socialism is what most people thought.

[JimmyJazz]

It seems everyone on here is forgetting the flip side of the way "socialism" is used in the U.S.

Firstly, yes, right-wing blowhards tend to call the shots in setting the terms of the political discourse here, just as they tend to call the shots about pretty much everything politically here. But there are two sides to the way that right-wing blowhards distort the concept of socialism, and equivocating it with Obama/liberalism/welfarist capitalism is just one side. The other is smearing socialism by trying to equate it with gulags, "millions" of deaths, political repression, cults of personality, dreariness, and a lack of individual identity. So there are simultanously attempts to both water it down and to make it into a horrible nightmare scenario. You can see some right-wing blowhards tripping up and trying both tactics within just a few minutes of each other, as Glenn Beck did while interviewing Sam Webb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxG98hNSDQI) of the CPUSA.

Anyway, as long as both distortions of socialism are in use, we can always use this to our advantage to (1) point out the obvious contradiction and (2) explain what socialism really is, and that it lies between the two, much more radical than liberalism yet qualitatively different from 'totalitarianism'. Actually, qualitatively different from both.

The worst right-wing blowhards will make a desperate attempt to draw similarities between Obama and Stalin to rescue their dual analogy, saying that they are merely different in degree and not in kind (think of people like Jonah Goldberg, who wrote a book with the title of Liberal Fascists), but they won't get anywhere with normal people by saying such outlandish things, and it's just preaching to the far-right choir for TV ratings, not real politics that has any influence.


I personally think it might be a good idea to dump the term. Nobody knows what it is anymore, it can basically refer to anything left of republicanism, and even some stuff right of republicanism. Somebody tried to argue that Libertarianism was socialist and I felt a chill down my very soul.

People occasionally say this on here, but it's a ridiculous proposal.

Socialism is a word, but it's also a concept. Anyone who is so politically shallow as to reject a word without even a superficial knowledge of the concept it represents is not exactly someone who is going to exert a lot of influence on politics in their country. We should target intelligent, engaged people by presenting the concept of socialism--and people like this won't really care what word we use for it, if they agree with the concept.

In fact, once intelligent people do grasp and agree with the concept, they might even call you out for having doctored it up with a new word in some sort of cynical public relations move, because they'll recognize that it's really socialism.

[deLarge]

More likely is that most of them voted or supported the Democrats or Greens. Or Brian Moore, I suppose, since he wasn't a socialist candidate.

Part of the problem also lies in that Brian Moore can't hold an interview if his life depended on it. Also, a -lot- of those who may have voted socialist probably viewed the SPUSA's website, took one look, and marked it down as un-professional. It may be superficial, but it does give off that aura. What does a comrade have to do to get a web designer? Basically, they would be a lot better off if they: 1. Picked better speakers, and 2. did an image-check (beyond the website, handing out flyers would be nice, as would outreach programs).

If I was to vote, I would probably vote green to be honest.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'll be the first optimist since Cpt Jack and say that it is an opportunity to explain what socialism properly speaking is
Yes! The fact that a generation that grew up being told that there is no alternative to capitalism is looking to alternatives to capitalism (no matter how confused at this point) is a great development. Of course, most people in the US think socialism is social-democracy and communism is stalinism because that is what the frickin' textbooks say in the US.

Still, think back that in 2004, the republicans smeared the Democrat Kerry with the "liberal" label just as they had done with other candidates who all ran screaming from the word. In 2008, liberal was no longer a smear, so McCain called Obama "socialist" and the public responded with... "Meh, sounds good".

This is an openness about politics that hasn't existed in the US since the 1970s.

[hammer and sickle]

Is this the same youth who wears nothing but American Eagle and Abercrombie and fitch clothes and watches MTV as if its some sort of religious prophecy?

[GPDP]

Is this the same youth who wears nothing but American Eagle and Abercrombie and fitch clothes and watches MTV as if its some sort of religious prophecy?

Well, aren't we just cynical!