The death penalty

[Tseka]

Not sure if this has been done already or not, in any case I couldn't find a thread similar to this.

How do you feel about the death penalty?

I see it as a crime against justice, ethics and a financial solution to an invaluable problem.

The most important problem to address is the imperfection of any kind of justice system, with thousands of people put on trial, it's mathematically certain that many innocent ones will be found guilty and persecuted.

Thoughts?

[brigadista]

there have been threads before - the DP is barbaric

[Demogorgon]

There was a thread only the other day. Anyway the Death Penalty is a despicable thing. No progressive should support it.

[Kassad]

There should literally be no debate on this issue. The death penalty is a reactionary and primitive way for elitists and bourgeois rulers to state that they are 'above' a member of society and cast off all responsibility of these people who have allegedly commited a crime.

The criminal justice system in the United States is incredibly racist and empirical. It doesn't matter if a law is unjust, unsustainable or detrimental to society. It must be enforced, usually by racist and zealous police officers. To name a few cases of people unjustly held in prison, we have Mumia Abu-Jamal, the Cuban Five, the Jena Six, the San Francisco (Panther) Eight, Leonard Peltier and many others. Some of these people will spend their lives in prison and others will be killed in the name of justice. Rehabilitation and comprehensive understanding are expensive, therefore it cuts out the middle-man when society just washes their hands of an individual. It saves money for the state, and at the end of the day, money is everything in capitalism. Corporations will produce mediocre products that are often dangerous and of sub-par quality. Employers will cut jobs they can easily afford just to make another buck, so of course we see why the primitive capitalist society has no qualms with executing another human being. Of course, things like the War on Drugs are aimed at poor and minority-filled communities. Selling drugs is profitable and these impoverished communities cannot find jobs, shelter or food, therefore they must resort to their only viable option: selling drugs. And we jail these people who are just trying to get by. Take note that 50% of all people in jail for drug-related offenses are non-violent offenders.

Crime stems from poverty. There's literally no way to deny this. Under capitalism, there will always be people and communities getting the short end of the stick and they are forced to live in terrible conditions and impoverished areas. When there is no way to make ends meet and when people are forced to do illegal things to survive, people are going to get caught and people will go to jail. Of course, we see the inherent contradition here because we comprehend that it is capitalism that impoverishes these people and capitalism is forcing them to commit crime. And then capitalism punishes them for the crime they caused. Ironic.

People always ask about 'crime under socialism.' What will we do with criminals under socialism? I can say this in a pretty confident manner: we won't have to do much. If we eliminate poverty, we would eliminate the need to steal. If everyone has a home, job, healthcare and education, why would they need to steal money and abuse others to obtain these things? Crime comes from capitalism and the inherent contradictions within it that leave people to die while others make billions.

The solution, as always, is socialism. The only means of breaking these contradictions and the shackles of exploitation is through workers emancipation. Once everyone has their needs met and wealth is properly maintained in a planned economy, no one will have any need to steal from others, for the wealth that they create, which is immense, will be theirs. Imagine if every worker made the money he created through his hard labor. Every worker would live in luxury and that is not just a possibility. It is a necessity.

Capitalists fear this fact because if people realize this, their wealth and their manipulative system will be assaulted and overthrown. The bourgeois dictatorship thrives off of the innate contradictions of capitalism that exploit workers. The death penalty is a means of forsaking responsibility for humans, just like capitalist governments, corporations and elitists do every day by casting aside people's needs in favor of increasing the profit margin. Instead, the racist criminal justice system should be totally destroyed and replaced by a workers community that strives to end poverty and to promote rehabilitation and compassion for those who may have psychological problems or grievances. The only way we can attain this, however, is revolution.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Most of the times I heavily oppose the death penalty, but in some cases it could be necessary.

[Uppercut]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses. Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.

[Kassad]

Most of the times I heavily oppose the death penalty, but in some cases it could be necessary.

There's rare exceptions. My example would be the executions in Cuba after the 1959 revolution. All of those executed received a trial and most of Batista's reactionary supporters fled to the United States. These executions were necessary, since there were no comprehensive prison or rehabilitation systems in Cuba at this time, so it was literally a choice between letting criminals, murderers and fascists run free and promote counterrevolution or execute them. Fidel Castro was very lenient with Batista's supporters, in my opinion.

[fabilius]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses. Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.

What?

I´m against death penalty over all, but mental illnesses? Those who are mentally ill shouldn´t even be punished for their crimes, they should be sent to asylums and get help.

I find it bizarre to find someone that opposes death penalty except for in the case of the mentally ill:blink:

[#FF0000]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses.

what

[reddevil]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses. Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.
what are you, a fucking eugenicist?

[Q]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses. Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.

Thank you for providing us CC'ers our daily drama.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm against an established and permanent legal entity employing the death penalty. Executions should only be performed during states of exception, in a socialist context as outbursts of "revolutionary violence". Empowering the state to kill its own citizens is seriously bad mojo and should only be done in situations when it makes a significant practical differences (ie. some reactionary prick that will go into exile and come back with a bunch of thugs with guns, or otherwise a criminal that cannot be restrained). I don't believe in any moralistic arguments for the death penalty, certainly some people can be said to "not deserve to live" but the main considerations should be practical in nature. Under an established, safe, and stable socialist society I fail to see much need for capital punishment.

[Girl A]

I say use the death penalty only in extreme cases, like mental illnesses. Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.

Did you make a typing mistake or something?

[F9]

Uppercat you have been issued a warning point for prejudice language

[apathy maybe]

Other wise, i say they should be subject to a life time of hard labor.
I thought socialists were opposed to slavery?



Thank you for providing us CC'ers our daily drama.

Heh, that's funny.


Oh, and if you want further threads, scroll to the bottom of this page:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/death-penalty-t72333/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/death-penalty-t25551/index.html

[Comrade B]

Please, before you talk about how barbaric and cruel the death penalty is, read this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/23/world/middleeast/23iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world). I do not support the penalty in most cases, but I personally would support any severe punishment for this sick fuck.

[Dr Mindbender]

Not sure if this has been done already or not, in any case I couldn't find a thread similar to this.

How do you feel about the death penalty?

I see it as a crime against justice, ethics and a financial solution to an invaluable problem.

The most important problem to address is the imperfection of any kind of justice system, with thousands of people put on trial, it's mathematically certain that many innocent ones will be found guilty and persecuted.

Thoughts?


I am opposed to the death penalty, even in a post revolutionary situation i do not want to see bourgeioise executed.

[Dr Mindbender]

Please, before you talk about how barbaric and cruel the death penalty is, read this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/23/world/middleeast/23iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world). I do not support the penalty in most cases, but I personally would support any severe punishment for this sick fuck.

While i empathise with your hatred, is killing someone because they're a 'sick fuck' really the correct progressive approach?

Life imprisonment (as in actually meaning life) is arguably a worse punishment anyway.

At least if they're found innocent later they can be let go, as opposed to killing them, finding out they were innocent and say ''hmm sorry'' to the families as you twiddle your thumbs.

[Comrade B]

While i empathise with your hatred, is killing someone because they're a 'sick fuck' really the correct progressive approach?
The man shot a little girl in the head with an AK-47, disguised as a local as to pass the blame onto a non American, after raping her, and murdering her entire family. He sets an example to the world that the US will tolerate murder and child rape of non-Americans. Leaving him alive will create fear in families across the country.

[Dr Mindbender]

The man shot a little girl in the head with an AK-47, disguised as a local as to pass the blame onto a non American, after raping her, and murdering her entire family. He sets an example to the world that the US will tolerate murder and child rape of non-Americans. Leaving him alive will create fear in families across the country.
Again, mentioning that the girl was shot in the head while emotive, is unhelpful to the debate in a materialist sense.

Wthout knowing the full semantics of the situation, i wouldnt be willing to pass judgement. Perhaps there was undisclosed information in that article, like the state of the soldiers mental health.

Perhaps he was even bullied into performing the deed, by superior ranking soldiers.

There was actually a vietnam movie made along that very theme, called ''casualties of war'' starring michael j. fox

[Comrade B]

He was declared the leader of the group, the other murderers were given small sentences with 10 year parole. They claim that he is in poor mental health, but his terrible mental health is part of what makes him. I bet you that this is his just who he is.

A few more details in The (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16547873/page/2/) se (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16547873/page/2/)

[Dr Mindbender]

He was declared the leader of the group, the other murderers were given small sentences with 10 year parole. They claim that he is in poor mental health, but his terrible mental health is part of what makes him. I bet you that this is his just who he is.

A few more details in The (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16547873/page/2/) se (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16547873/page/2/)

Killing him isnt going to bring the girl or her family back.

I really think letting him rot in a cell for the rest of his life to contemplate his deeds would be a worse punishment.

[piet11111]

sometimes people are beyond rehabilitation and when that happens its in my opinion more humane to kill them painlessly then to stick them into those hell holes we call prison.

obviously we would have to establish guilt without a doubt and see that rehabilitation is impossible before going through with the execution.
after all the idea behind a sentence is that the population is protected from threats such as serial killers and other extremely dangerous criminals and the death sentence is the most effective way of protecting the people.

[Radical]

I strongly oppose the death sentance in ALL circumstances.

Heres my reasoning;

Currently in a Capitalist Society it all comes down to how rich you are.
Rich people can afford better lawyers, whereas the poor people can only get standard lawyers. Therefore the Poor would be sentanced to death more than the rich.

I strongly oppose giving a Government that kind of power. Not only is it wrong but it also sends out a message to people across the globe. If the government can kill, then why cant WE?

Although I'm FOR executions in some Revolutionary circumstances, I strongly oppose the Death Sentance once a stable government has been put in place.

[Pawn Power]

Perhaps he was even bullied into performing the deed, by superior ranking soldiers.


It is pretty clear from the evidence that the soldier was indeed the ringleader in the event. Other soldiers involved have already confessed.

[#FF0000]

sometimes people are beyond rehabilitation and when that happens its in my opinion more humane to kill them painlessly then to stick them into those hell holes we call prison.

You can ask anybody, and 8/10, they'd rather say "OH GOD PUT ME IN A HELL HOLE PRISON I DON'T WANT TO DIE".

[Jazzratt]

Killing him isnt going to bring the girl or her family back.

Necromancy isn't the aim of the death penalty.


I really think letting him rot in a cell for the rest of his life to contemplate his deeds would be a worse punishment.

Nor, really, is punishment. The death penalty serves the great utility of removing a danger to society, permanently. Personally I would want neither to gamble the safety of a population by allowing someone proven capable of, say, rape to exist amongst them nor would I wish to have that person suffer for a lifetime and become a drain on resources.

The death penalty should only become an option if someone is proven an incorrigble offender. Executioners should be rotate frequently, asked only to preside over a handful of executions and be given full psychological evaluations. All executions should be as swift and painless as possible.

[piet11111]

You can ask anybody, and 8/10, they'd rather say "OH GOD PUT ME IN A HELL HOLE PRISON I DON'T WANT TO DIE".

i bet if you where to ask them if they wanted to go to jail you would find that all of them would say no.

good thing then that criminals are not the ones that get to decide what their punishment will be.

if you murdered someone in cold blood just for your pleasure then you are a danger to society that needs to be removed permanently.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Nor, really, is punishment. The death penalty serves the great utility of removing a danger to society, permanently. Personally I would want neither to gamble the safety of a population by allowing someone proven capable of, say, rape to exist amongst them nor would I wish to have that person suffer for a lifetime and become a drain on resources.

Or of course you could actually try and cure these people and realise that people don't just go out and rape people and murder people for no apparent reason. Something awful has most likely happened to this person and helping them to overcome this will be a big part of their rehabilitation. They will then be able to live in our society again.

[piet11111]

Or of course you could actually try and cure these people and realise that people don't just go out and rape people and murder people for no apparent reason. Something awful has most likely happened to this person and helping them to overcome this will be a big part of their rehabilitation. They will then be able to live in our society again.

you are ignoring the fact that sometimes people are beyond rehabilitation and then its just better to permanently remove the threat from society.

in the netherlands we have seen several times that criminals from those psychiatric institutions have managed to escape and start killing and raping within a day.

i am all for rehabilitation but not everyone can or wants to be rehabilitated.

[Jazzratt]

Or of course you could actually try and cure these people and realise that people don't just go out and rape people and murder people for no apparent reason. Something awful has most likely happened to this person and helping them to overcome this will be a big part of their rehabilitation. They will then be able to live in our society again.

The gamble here is with the effectiveness of rehabilitation. Even if it was 99% successful I could not, in good consciense(god damn I hate spelling), release a repeat offender on the off-chance they were one of the 1% that would re-offend. That is gambling with innocents and that is too high a price to pay.

[Dr Mindbender]

They could move maximum security prisons that hold the most dangerous prisoners to somewhere like the middle of antarctica, where the possibility of escape would be pretty much nil.

Wild animals like lions are still potential killers that cant be tamed, but we still keep them in captivity.

[Das war einmal]

A typical moral dilemma, few would disagree with the fact that fascists where hanged and shot at the trials of WW2 was justified. However, I am convinced that in many cases long sentences or even life time sentences are a far better punishment.

So I would conclude that only under very special circumstances, like war, executions are not only necessary, they are one of the only effective ways to deal with the enemy.

I sometimes wish for a death penalty for types like Joseph Fritzl, but he should really suffer for the rest of his life for what he did, its a real shame they put him in a reasonably comfortable prison cell, they should throw him in some sort of dungeon.

[Jazzratt]

They could move maximum security prisons that hold the most dangerous prisoners to somewhere like the middle of antarctica, where the possibility of escape would be pretty much nil.

Wild animals like lions are still potential killers that cant be tamed, but we still keep them in captivity.

As I said, I find the idea of keeping someone alive in perpetual misery far more vile than swiftly excising them from society.

[cyu]

1. To me, the purpose of the justice system isn't to punish people. The purpose is instead to protect people. The justice system only uses punishment as a means to an end - it is a tool used in an attempt to protect others.

If you agree that protecting people is more important than punishing people, then the next question you have to ask is if the punishment is actually effective at protecting others.

2. You also have to consider that if the death penalty exists in society, people in power can use it as a tool to silence their opposition. Political opponents can be framed - accused of being bomb-throwers, terrorists, or other "treasonous" activity - then executed after a show trial.

As Judge Gary has famously said, "Not because you have caused the Haymarket bomb, but because you are anarchists, you are on trial."

3. Let's say you had a dangerous political prisoner (even Hitler) in custody. Would it be better to simply kill him or convert him to your side? If you could convert him, it would be devestating to the supporters of his former ideology - something a mere execution could never achieve. If you can't convert him, then maybe your own political ideology isn't all that great to begin with - you can take the opportunity to study the weaknesses in your own politics and make it stronger.

4. Let's say the prisoner isn't political at all and is there because of, say, having raped, tortured, and killed others. The first question I'd ask is, would the execution be merely an attempt to cover up weaknesses in the system / chain of command that allowed this to happen? Sweeping one problem under the rug so you can ignore it is not going to help if the current system is just going to spawn more rapists, torturers, and murderers.

One more thing a prisoner like this is good for: psychological study. Even if you can't "fix" this particular guy, you can still examine his motivations for doing what he does - what past experiences led him to his current situation? Just like in medicine, if you can find the cause of a disease, it can lead you to preventing it from happening to others.