Expropriation

[Dóchas]

So we know that when we achieve revolution in our countries we will first expropriate all private means of production. this is one of the most basic ideas of communism but what i havent seen is how do we actually manage to centralise the means of production? in books it always says something like "we seize all means of production..." and just leaves it at that it doesnt tell us how we do this. some of the ways i can think of are:

1. The owners of the factories etc. will flee when they see their business's (and probably their lives) at risk. we just move in and claim it as our own ;)

2. We forcibly remove them from their positions power (but even then how would we do this? or would it vary for every situation?)

3. We boycott their business's until they are forced to give up ( i dont see this working but you never know)

Im sure there is other ways but i just want to see if you have any suggestions and any methods that you think could work or have been proven to work. also would different methods on how to seize means of production vary from ideology to ideology?

[Dóchas]

anyone? :o

[OneNamedNameLess]

Well in the event of a true uprising, the majority of people would desire an alternative system to the previous one. If capitalist production is rejected then there are limited options on how to organize. Collective ownership would inevitably take over. It depends on what you mean by revolution. If a vanguard leads the revolt and establishes their party as the representatives of the people, then it is likely that they will oversee the expropriation of the means of production.

Now i'm not too clued up on theory regarding this matter. Historical examples are probably most useful for addressing this question. What occurred in Russia, Catalonia and so?

[f-thesystem]

This is an interesting question, but unfortunately i do not have the answer.

I would also like to hear some suggestions to this.

[mikelepore]

There is only one way. Socialists must be elected to the political offices that control government, where they will change the laws to say that capitalist property rights are cancelled, and that a large industrial organization of the workers is recognized as the new management. There is no choice in this. Social ownership of the industries cannot be established in any other way.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You're thinking too much in electoral terms, Mike. Grassroots-based movements towards constitution overhaul (and I say this and not "constitutional overhaul" - given the reformist connotations associated with playing within the legal system) are far superior to what you're proposing.

[autotrophic]

how do we actually manage to centralise the means of production?
You don't necessarily need to centralize the Means Of Production within the state. Power could be 'centralized' by putting the MOP under voluntary control of trade unions (radical, democratic ones at least). By this I mean each workplace, already being collectivized, could federate together and coordinate production according to need. So there would pretty much be federations for each industry, with the members at higher levels democratically elected and recallable. They would also still be producers, so they wouldn't be alienated from average workers like they are in the state and corporations etc.

This is basically what a decentralized, anarcho-communist economy would look like, in my opinion.

There are also other alternative of course, such as workers councils or communes, etc.

[SecondLife]

As nowadays all enterprises accountings comes through banks, then there is needed to nationalize banks. Against sabotage there is needed first to close all channels (Internet also) to outside world and later eliminate paper money at all. Paper money is at all unnecessary.

[teenagebricks]

If a revolution happened tomorrow, the internet would be an incredibly powerful tool for spreading the message, so I don't think any channels should be closed, especially the internet. We wouldn't want to end up like North Korea.

[SecondLife]

If you don't close internet, then capitalists move all money into foreign banks and revolution is collapsed (there becomes famine).

[teenagebricks]

Good, one less job for us, money can only be a bad. All that is needed is the means to produce and distribute, and as far as I'm aware you can't move factories to another location tover the internet.

[SecondLife]

You don't understand. Of course paper-money is bad (but not all money), but question isn't in local money (this is only paper), but question is about valuta (hard currency). Altough in bank all is just numbers in computer, but if those numbers goes through country border, then its more than just paper.

[teenagebricks]

I do understand, and cutting off a nation from the outside world just isn't acceptable or necessary in my opinion, it stinks of authoritarianism. I don't really mind what the capitalists do, they can take all their money to Antarctica for all I care.

[Dóchas]

i dont want this thread to disappear into the background because i still want to see what people think...so any ideas?

[Lynx]

Expropriation without democratic reforms to the workplace and beyond = state capitalism?

[The Douche]

There is only one way. Socialists must be elected to the political offices that control government, where they will change the laws to say that capitalist property rights are cancelled, and that a large industrial organization of the workers is recognized as the new management. There is no choice in this. Social ownership of the industries cannot be established in any other way.

:laugh::laugh:

Yes, mine is the only way, there can be no others.

It would be impossible for the workers of a business to lock the bosses out, or to occupy an abandoned workplace and restart production. Because these things have never happend, right?

The solution which you propose as the "only solution" has in fact, never happend, and seems to me, to be the least realistic option. Even if we did vote a socialist government of the DeLeonist persuasion (what you're advocating) in to government, and we had a massive Industrial Union tied to said party, the minute the election results were in the army would have the tanks firing up. The minute the laws were passed the military would be in the streets defending private property. And then what would happen? Why, the workers directly would sieze the means of production. Such a thing which you claim is impossible.