No 2 EU looks to Far Right for Votes

[Die Neue Zeit]

No 2 EU looks to Far Right for Votes



Facebook (FB) is a peculiar world occupied by office workers, students and the unemployed. On it you can follow the latest intrigues of this or that friend, stalk the weirdest sectarians and at times find out somebody’s politics by where they post. The RMT, the Stalinist CPB and the “Trotskyist” Socialist Party of England and Wales (SPEW) have gone to lengths to try and convince us that the No2EU campaign is not right wing, not anti immigrant and certainly is not nationalist! FB exposes these claims as nothing but lies.

Leading Cardiff SPEW member [...] has been doing his best to promote No2EU on FB, nothing wrong in that. The problem is, he is promoting them on far right, nationalist, racist and BNP controlled pages. Pages such as ‘British jobs for British people’, ‘get foreign labour out of Britain’, ‘UK jobs for UK workers’. The demands of these groups centre around getting foreigners out of the UK. For those who think we are making this up, have a look here (http://communiststudents.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/causes-on-facebook-andrew.pdf) at a copy of some of the pages he has been posting on. On these pages apart from posting links he posted this message:

‘British jobs for british workers and Italian jobs for Italian workers. The only reason the EU has such a large migrant workforce is to drive down workers wages and increase profits for the super rich. Vote no2eu on June the 4th.’

So much for a workers’ Europe then. Such slogans would find a loving home in the BNP and nationalists parties across Europe. Did he forget about internationalism?

So many of us on the revolutionary Left have been repulsed by this campaign, we have been called sectarians and all of the other usual crap internationalists get called. It is doubtful that [he] is the only one, and is certainly not a loose cannon, he is leading cadre. When we said that No2EU is nothing more than little England politics dressed up in trade union clothes we never expected SPEW members to campaign on nationalist, far right and BNP controlled sites and pages. SPEW members need to sit up and wake up, good socialists are being dragged into a nationalist adventure by Left bureaucrats and vile opportunists.



http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/

[teenagebricks]

I'll pass judgement until I hear what No2EU has to say about this, I certainly hope this is just one man's blunder as opposed to the official No2EU approach.

[RaiseYourVoice]

have gone to lengths to try and convince us that the No2EU campaign is not right wing, not anti immigrant and certainly is not nationalist! FB exposes these claims as nothing but lies.
Okay so FACEBOOK exposes the No2EU campaign as anti-immigrant, right wing, and nationalist? This alone deserves a price for being the most nutjob sentence i saw this week. Facebook "exposes" this guy being an idiot. This guy, despite being a "leading member" (what ever that means) does not represent the campaign as far as i can see.

Now i cannot judge if this campaign is rightwing, nationalist or not since i havent seen much of it, but the fact that this "communist student" group obviously cannot prove their claim with material, articles or even speeches, but FACEBOOK says enough.

I personally don't think posting a slogan that could be interpreted by the right in rightwing circles by itself makes much sense. However trying to convince rightwinger, arguing with them and yes trying to "win them over" does certainly not make one right wing.

So to convince me that this campaign is right wing or nationalist, stick to evidence instead of over-interpreting facebook posts your way. Now if you say being Anti-EU is already right wing, i am involved in an Anti-EU campaign in Germany (though its rather small) and its anything but rightwing.

[Devrim]

Jacob, it is not the job of socialists to post people's real names up on the internet. Please edit his name out, please.

Actually this has already been posted on this forum:http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1445421&postcount=74


Devrim

[Holden Caulfield]

The actions of one man are of little concern to me.
Perhaps this guy is simply a tosser. Maybe an idiot. Maybe something else.

The way alot of people held up SP defector CB a while ago has bearing on this thread, I and people like Palachinov can tell you first hand he is pretty much a massive sexist. I didn't bring that up as a criticism then because the actions of one man have no realistic bearing on the political issue.

[Q]

The actions of one man are of little concern to me.
Perhaps this guy is simply a tosser. Maybe an idiot. Maybe something else.

The way alot of people held up SP defector CB a while ago has bearing on this thread, I and people like Palachinov can tell you first hand he is pretty much a massive sexist. I didn't bring that up as a criticism then because the actions of one man have no realistic bearing on the political issue.

So, because he's a sexist his critical views are invalidated? That sounds like a stretch, even to me. That said, I'm following his blog and all he posts nowadays is just one big flamefest towards the SP. Disappointing, as he made some interesting points earlier.

What I don't follow is how exactly No2EU is nationalist or how the SP is supporting nationalistic slogans. I would love to hear an answer on that because all I got thusfar was "because it is!".

[Holden Caulfield]

So, because he's a sexist his critical views are invalidated? That sounds like a stretch, even to me. That said, I'm following his blog and all he posts nowadays is just one big flamefest towards the SP. Disappointing, as he made some interesting points earlier.


No, that wasnt what I was trying to say, I'm saying the actions or ideas of one person shouldn't be used to discredit a political party or campaign. I was saying people gladly used CB to criticise the SP however he is by no means a perfect Marxist himself, and similarly this guy is clearly not a good Marxist. But what my point is, is that these are just single people, and their actions as an individual are largely irrelevant.



What I don't follow is how exactly No2EU is nationalist or how the SP is supporting nationalistic slogans. I would love to hear an answer on that because all I got thusfar was "because it is!".
The arguments from the left communists, as well made as they are, are along the same lines of when they tell us not to oppose fascism as it is just another regular bourgeois strand, don't attack the EU because it is just another bourgeois strand. I don't feel we should sit back and allow the bourgeois to chip away at our standards of livings, or to 'arm' itself with newer tools to opress us.

[h0m0revolutionary]

The arguments from the left communists, as well made as they are, are along the same lines of when they tell us not to oppose fascism as it is just another regular bourgeois strand, don't attack the EU because it is just another bourgeois strand.

Oh Holden.. you know our criticism of NO2EU is far deeper than that :bored:

We opposed NO2EU because their programme says nothing against British capital, you do not stand as communists and offer no answers to the working class. In fact the only merit of your campaign I can see so far is that you're so harsh on immigration and the EU that NO2EU will take votes away from the BNP. Hardly worth applauding them for...

Let me take some of your demands:

- No to EU directives that privatise our public services

Sorry what's this? EU directives might be speeding up the privatisation, but by and large the process of privatisation right across the EU was started by nation states. In Britain for example we are the only country to have a privatised Air Traffic Control - a consequence only of New Labours obsession with market enterprise. I understand why you would attack EU directives, but why reserve criticism of domestic privatisation?

Defend and develop manufacturing, agriculture and fishing industries in Britain

We're meant to be internationalists! this demand could have come from the BNP (in fact strikingly similar ones do come form the BNP)

We oppose the EU because of our understanding of what it is, not because we want to protect the interests of workers in a single country, but in every country. This slogan is nationalist, their is no reason not to take an internationalist line here. Protection of British jobs as a slogan is fetishising jobs in OUR county above and beyond that of any other? Why?

Morever this is completely reformist, not once do you mention capitalism and the case for it's abolition. But concentrate instead on the EU being the bogey-man because it takes away British jobs. You're meant to be socialists! Why not show that the EU is just a byproduct of capitalism superceding nation states and that protection of British industry must come in the form of demands for workers control of industry - in Britain, the EU and the world over!

(my favourite --->) Repeal anti-trade union ECJ rulings and EU rules promoting social dumping

Lol. Anti-Union laws made in Brussels are completely insigificant in comparison to domestic anti-Labor laws, so why don't they warrent a mention? I suspect ti's because to remain consistent you throw all criticism at the nasty European Union and say nothing about the British State.

The NO2EU website comdemns "the so-called ‘free movement’ of labour" in the EU and "the social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain". This amounts to BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH WORKERS, which would be funny, if it were not extremely sad that self-proclaimed socialists have resorted to outright nationalism and anti-immigration sentiments to get elected!

We don't condemn the use of cheap inported foreign labor - as revolutionaries that is not our job. We show that this will always occur under capitalism because the in the pursuit of greater profits and capital accumulation capitalism is amoral. We oppose this then only on the grounds that it undecuts jobs in local communities and that must be an anti-capitalist argument. But NO2EU protray this as a wholly natioanlist move. Protection of British jobs and opposition to "social dumping" of economic migrants without illustrating how this is a consequence of the market system of production is nationalist and to do so in the name of socialism is just outright shameful.

Repatriate democratic powers to EU member states

As if more proof were eeded that NO2EU seek to protect British capital against the interests of EU capital...

This is a very reactionary demand! We do not want to protect nation states, we do not want them to have more powers, we do not want EU laws therefore to be under the jurisdiction of member states - we want democratic power to reside in the hands of the working class. Clearly NO2EU would rather have a defunct EU with a much more powerful Biritsh state capable no doubt of finally protecting Biritsh jobs against those nasty immigrants who are "dumped" here to take our jobs.

Also as a side point, is NO2EU are not going to take their seats. How will they raise this demand? You seem to have alot of faith in bureaucratic, neoliberal strcutres to reallocate power to nation states, but how do you raise that demand in the first place??

Scrap EU rules designed to stop member states from implementing independent economic policies

But all constituent memer states are bourgeois states! the workers do not control them! why are we calling on the EU to concede power back into the hands of our national bourgeiosie!?

This does nothing to foster illusions that our own state is capable of protecting workers jobs, concerns and interests which is as dishonest as it is non-socialist.

A world wide struggle against measures (often prepetuated by institutions such as the EU) whcih seek to lower workers living and working conditions is what is needed. Not a nationlaist campaign that seeks to portray the British state as somehow capable independently of anything progressive!

Keep Britain out of the Eurozone
of an Well yes. But we don't need to demand to our boureois state how best to manage itself. We should be putting the case for socialism, not telling propontants of capitalism how better to manage their own system!


Now let's be frank. The whole project is reformist and nationalist to the core. It's the embodiement of the CPB's 'British Road to Socialism' which puts the case AGAINST workers revolution.

Without any criticism of capitalism or the British state NO2EU should not be taken seriously by any worker. Especially in time of crisis we should be offering coherent answers to working class concerns, this involves putting forward the case of internationalism, anti-capitalism and showing how workers concerns transcend national boundries.

What we don't do, is alledge our British State can offer the working class of our country anything progressive and nor do we echo the sentiments of the BNP by opposing "the so-called ‘free movement’ of labour" in the EU and "the social dumping of exploited foreign workers in Britain".

[Leo]

The arguments from the left communists, as well made as they are, are along the same lines of when they tell us not to oppose fascism as it is just another regular bourgeois strand, don't attack the EU because it is just another bourgeois strand. I don't feel we should sit back and allow the bourgeois to chip away at our standards of livings, or to 'arm' itself with newer tools to opress us.

I don't think this is a fair comment though. We are neither telling that fascism should not be opposed nor that EU should not be opposed. We aren't saying that we should sit back and allow the bourgeois to chip away at our standards of livings at all either. The working class should has an interest in being opposed to fascism, being opposed to the EU and in struggling for living standards in our opinion.

Our objection is regarding how can the working class can go forward in this opposition. Is voting in proposals, claiming that the outcomes of votes will defend our living standards, and ending up shoulder to shoulder with ultra-nationalists, even shouting the slogans of those ultra-nationalists the way to go forward? Is this the way the proletarian struggle against the EU can be conducted? Is this going to bring anything to the working class? Was defending the same democracy that brought fascism to power by joining the anti-fascist fronts of the bourgeoisie the way to fight fascism?

We don't say say the way forward is doing nothing, we say that the alternative is actual, material class struggle, against things like fascism and the EU and due to the nature of class struggle against all other parts of capitalism - ultimately the struggle against capitalism as a whole. The proletarian fight against fascism has to be the fight against the ruling bourgeois class, the internationalist fight against the capitalist order. The same thing goes for EU as well. We think that at the center of all the struggles conducted by the proletariat is the real struggles (as opposed to false "struggles", like all the nationalist, electoral, frontist etc. 'campaigns') made for the working class conditions, which ultimately is the unitary basis of the specter of the international struggle against world capitalism, that is the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat for communism.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I think this "expose" is a load of overblown sectarian crud.

Im willing to be informed however.

[AlMack]

Same here melbourne.
A lot of people missing the point that it is a TEMPORARY platform for the EUROPEAN elections only, thats why domestic issues are not explored indepth within one little leaflet. I dont beleive they have ever claimed to be an explicitly socialist alternative either. Criticising EU privatisation etc does not condone the domestic equivalent ffs,
Fair enough it should really be no to a BOSSES EU but how long do you think the title/leaflets/posters would be if they covered every single far left demand haha
If you disagree with their approach DO SOMETHING different, get out in your community, dont just talk about it on the net

[Pogue]

Same here melbourne.
A lot of people missing the point that it is a TEMPORARY platform for the EUROPEAN elections only, thats why domestic issues are not explored indepth within one little leaflet. I dont beleive they have ever claimed to be an explicitly socialist alternative either. Criticising EU privatisation etc does not condone the domestic equivalent ffs,
Fair enough it should really be no to a BOSSES EU but how long do you think the title/leaflets/posters would be if they covered every single far left demand haha
If you disagree with their approach DO SOMETHING different, get out in your community, dont just talk about it on the net

Ignoring the rest of your argument aside, please don't resort to the 'z0MG KEYBOARDIST' argument, because I spend alot of time arguing here and spend an equally large amount of time attending protests, meetings, pickets, fundraisers, etc. I use this forum as a basis for dicussion which informs my real world political analysis and action, as do many users on this board, some of whom I have met out in the 'real world'.

[AlMack]

Wasnt aimed at you, or anyone who knows themselves to be active, more certain (non-anarcho tbh) groups whose literature is little more than the far left equivalent of a gossip magazine.

[Pogue]

Oh yeh I think everyone from the SWP to AFed has learnt to accept the CPGB is nothing more than a complete and utter joke.

[Sam_b]

I think you'll find its CPGB (Provisional Central Committee).

Says it all eh :sleep:

[h0m0revolutionary]

Oh yeh I think everyone from the SWP to AFed has learnt to accept the CPGB is nothing more than a complete and utter joke.

You're right, the CPGB are awful, but their 'expose'' does have implications we all should take note of.

The SPEW comrade that was promoting NO2EU on exclusively far-right groups (via facebook) was doing so because he was politically able to! Because the NO2EU campaign is nationalist and anti-immigration! - it echos the concerns of nationalists perfectly.

Cpgb may be idiots, but in this case they're perfectly right to point out that a socialist campaign should not be able to draw support from the Far-right; if it can then their programme is one that socialists should be ashamed of!

[Pogue]

Has it actually got such a programme? Where is it anti-immigration? Serious question.

[Q]

Has it actually got such a programme? Where is it anti-immigration? Serious question.

As far as I've gathered the argument is more of "it's nationalist by implication" rather than "it hates all immigrants". While I still disagree with that assertion, these are different arguments I think.

What happens here is that for example cpgb mixes up the tactic of opposing the EU in an EU election, with a principle somehow. So because this election is anti-EU, it is thusly nationalist and pro-UK-bourgeois. Ultra-leftist bollocks imho, but that does seem the logic here.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The CPGB calls for a Communist Party of the European Union, so I think their reservations about anti-EU nationalism are quite justified (considering the various opt-out UK provisions that enable the UK to do worse things than the EU).