feminism vs. equality

[samofshs]

I have come to learn that "we" as a collective use the term "feminism" to mean believing that men/women/other should be EQUAL. "feminism" actually means most basically that women are better. "we" as a collective need to stop saying/typing "feminism" and start with "gender equality" or "sexual equality". any other suggestions for new name for "feminism" taken here. also questions, comments, or concerns; post them and then PM me questions/concerns.

[Eva]

Feminism is a branch of egalitarianism particularly concerned in women's rights and interests. It's a genre, if you will; a topic within the big debate of social equality.

[samofshs]

I get this. but many of "us" on this site are misusing this term. so i'm electing for a new one to be made to be used where it would have previously been abused.

[Black Dagger]

I have come to learn that "we" as a collective use the term "feminism" to mean believing that men/women/other should be EQUAL.

That's a type of feminism sure - liberal or 'equality feminism'. But no, I wouldn't say that's how i use the term 'feminism' if i'm speaking generally.



"feminism" actually means most basically that women are better.

Say what? :unsure:

Please justify that statment.

There is no such thing as 'feminism' (beyond some general thematic commonalities) only feminisms - though i can't think of any feminist perspective that advocates that women are 'better' [than men]. Some cultural and radical feminism appeals to 'positive' inherent characteristics in women - but usually this takes the form of redefining or embracing traits that are stigmatised or regarded as 'inferior' to some 'male' counterpart...nBut this is still not about women being 'better'. Rather it emphasises the strengths of women (and against the attacks of patriarchy), not the inferiority of men.



"we" as a collective need to stop saying/typing "feminism" and start with "gender equality" or "sexual equality".

Why? What does 'equality' mean in practice?

What about gender? And gender roles?



any other suggestions for new name for "feminism" taken here. also questions, comments, or concerns; post them and then PM me questions/concerns.

What's the point of this? Who are 'we' to invent a new name for 'feminism'? Besides, you're suggesting that 'we' abandon an umbrella term in favour of something more narrowly defined. That doesn't make sense, already there are more specific terms - indeed it is these things that actually constitute 'feminism', i.e. 'feminisms': liberal feminisms, post-colonial feminisms, socialist feminisms etc.

[gorillafuck]

"feminism" actually means most basically that women are better.
Since when?:confused:

[jake williams]

Especially with a broad historical view, the word "feminism" is almost so all-encompassing it's useless, because of all the contradictions involving mutually exclusive understandings and principles. It refers to different sets of politics with, in some cases, virtually opposite views and goals. Personally if it were practical I'd refer to my particular views as "anti-patriarchy" rather than "feminist", and unless I'm mistaken the original term refers to first-wavers who defended "feminine values" against "masculine society", which is not my approach and not the approach of very many people here.

All that said, there is sort of a range of views one will find here that are reasonably consistent with each other, challenging traditional understandings and practice of gender. Those sorts of perspectives and politics usually are called "feminist", and many people, even here, self-identify that way.

[Verix]

all most all feminists want eqaulity, but there was the crazy lady who shot Andy Warhol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

all most all feminists want eqaulity, but there was the crazy lady who shot Andy Warhol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas)


Yeah, she was in that group Up Against The Wall Motherfuckers. I never could find out why she actually did it though. I don't think she necessariliy thought women were superior to men though.

[Il Medico]

Feminism is just the extreme opposite of chauvinism, both are equally bad (although this is not necessarily true it is how the public perceives the word). I support the term gender equality.

[Module]

Feminism is just the extreme opposite of chauvinism, both are equally bad. I support the term gender equality

It really baffles me how people can actually say this in earnest. You could at least Google it before you post crap for others to read.

[Blackscare]

Yeah, she was in that group Up Against The Wall Motherfuckers. I never could find out why she actually did it though. I don't think she necessariliy thought women were superior to men though.


She thought he stole her screenplay, iirc.


She also wrote the S.C.U.M. (society for the cutting up of men) manifesto. :rolleyes:

[counterblast]

Feminism vs. Sexual Equality sounds an awful lot like semantics-play to me...

If this is really the largest issue we have to deal with when it comes to sexism; I would say we're doing okay.

[Module]

all most all feminists want eqaulity, but there was the crazy lady who shot Andy Warhol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas)

Yeah, she was in that group Up Against The Wall Motherfuckers. I never could find out why she actually did it though. I don't think she necessariliy thought women were superior to men though.Well she apparently thought that men should be killed, so yeah, she probably did.
Valerie Solanas was as much a feminist as national anarchists are anarchists. It bothers me how people here don't understand what feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism) is; there have been a few good posts so far in this thread explaining it, didn't you read them?

[counterblast]

I don't think she necessariliy thought women were superior to men though.

In the "SCUM Manifesto", she goes on to describe men as "biologically inferior", and that the XY chromosome is a deformed XX chromosome.

[Red Saxon]

They are undeniably some crazies out there who believe that women are better than men, but they don't necessarily fall under Feminists.

I think some people need to realize there is a difference between social equality and complete equality, which is impossible.

[Module]

What do you mean?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

In the "SCUM Manifesto", she goes on to describe men as "biologically inferior", and that the XY chromosome is a deformed XX chromosome.

Wow she is mental. The reason I thought she wasn't is because she was in that group which had men in it aswell....

[Red Saxon]

What do you mean?For example, total equality would be that both males and females look exactly alike and have the same body mass and intelligence.

Social equality would be laws and job opprotunities that everyone has access to.

[Il Medico]

It really baffles me how people can actually say this in earnest. You could at least Google it before you post crap for others to read.
I support Feminism that supports gender equality. However, that said, although most feminist do, in America at least, men haters have taken over the word. this has given it a negative image. Plus, the word itself implies a focus on the feminine over masculine. If you read the OP's post he asked whether or not we should use a different word due to the negativity surrounding feminism. I simply explain how feminism is viewed by the public (in America at least) and offered support for a more acceptable word. I apologize if I was unclear.

[Lynx]

What are your thoughts regarding separatist feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism)?

To what extent should we accept the various subtypes as being part of feminism or the feminist movement?

[counterblast]

However, that said, although most feminist do, in America at least, men haters have taken over the word.
Really? The only prominent "man hater" (if you could even call her prominent), anyone has been able to provide is Valerie Solanis.

How is it if "men haters" are "taking over"; that the most relevant piece of information anyone has been able to post thus far, is the attempted assassination of Andy Warhol in the late 1960s?

[Il Medico]

Really? The only prominent "man hater" (if you could even call her prominent), anyone has been able to provide is Valerie Solanis.
Where I live, yes people consider people like her the poster child of feminism. This is neither true or fair but it is reality.

[Jazzratt]

Where I live, yes people consider people like her the poster child of feminism. This is neither true or fair but it is reality.

Where the fuck do you live? In Pat Robertson's imagination? It takes a conscious effort to find "man haters" amongst the people who identify as feminist. It's more likely you will encounter people who don't take the concept of feminism far enough as opposed to those who "take it too far".

[Il Medico]

Where the fuck do you live?.
The Conservative hell know as the American South. :(

[Jazzratt]

The Conservative hell know as the American South. :(

That doesn't really explain why it's full of straw-feminists...

[Rascolnikova]

It isn't full of straw-feminists. . . it's full of people who use the term "feminist" a certain way. To put it differently, common usage in conservative parts of the United States is that "feminist" means "radical anti-male separatist."

To understand why this is and (tangentially) what it has to do with socialism, I highly recommend Feminist Theory by Bell Hooks. It's a fast read with many insights to offer, some of which I've found extremely useful when defending the term in a conservative Christian context. It also doesn't hurt to pull up a standard dictionary definition.

[Module]

For example, total equality would be that both males and females look exactly alike and have the same body mass and intelligence.

Social equality would be laws and job opprotunities that everyone has access to.
I love how you slip in body mass and intelligence as if they're on the same level.
Men and women do not have different levels of intelligence.

I support Feminism that supports gender equality. However, that said, although most feminist do, in America at least, men haters have taken over the word. this has given it a negative image. Plus, the word itself implies a focus on the feminine over masculine. If you read the OP's post he asked whether or not we should use a different word due to the negativity surrounding feminism. I simply explain how feminism is viewed by the public (in America at least) and offered support for a more acceptable word. I apologize if I was unclear. I'll tell you who has taken over the word. Conservative misogynist men who consider their social priviledge justified and 'natural', that all women who claim otherwise are wrongfully out to get them 'as men', rather than actually honestly considering or presenting the ideas held by feminists. Or claiming that feminists are all "lesbians", because everybody knows real women know their place. You might as well say that the word 'communism' has been 'taken over' by hippies or pro-dictatorship psychos. The conservative media likes to present the ideas that threaten existing power structures as something they're not, so as to blind people to their ideas. Man-hating feminists as they're presented don't exist. The man-hating feminist is a creation used as an excuse to ignore women who fight for real equality, rather than accepting things as they are.

[apathy maybe]

What are your thoughts regarding separatist feminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism)?

To what extent should we accept the various subtypes as being part of feminism or the feminist movement?

It's really simple, same as with anarchism. There are basic tenets in feminism (and anarchism). Anything that goes against those basic tenets is not feminism (or anarchism).

You can have something that shares a lot in common with feminism, but isn't.

[Mujer Libre]

men haters have taken over the word. this has given it a negative image.
Um, sorry- that's completely false. Separatist feminists, radfems or "man haters" make up a very small proportion of feminists.

In fact, it's conservative propaganda that has taken over the word, hijacked it and added the negative associations.

Feminism is in fact a highly vital, changing and diverse movement- or rather collection of movements.


Plus, the word itself implies a focus on the feminine over masculine.
That's because we live in a patriarchy. It makes sense... To argue based on that that feminism does not analyse the masculine is just silly.


If you read the OP's post he asked whether or not we should use a different word due to the negativity surrounding feminism.
Even more negativism surrounds the word "communism." I don't think we need a new word for that. Rather, we need to show people what communism (and feminism) are and are not. No matter what we call the liberation of women and destruction of the patriarchy- sexists, the media and capitalists will try to distort it.

The word isn't the problem- the system is.

[Lynx]

The word can imply a movement focused on issues that are of concern to women only.

[Lynx]

It's really simple, same as with anarchism. There are basic tenets in feminism (and anarchism). Anything that goes against those basic tenets is not feminism (or anarchism).

You can have something that shares a lot in common with feminism, but isn't.
Opposed to hierarchy, advocates for a more egalitarian society.

[Black Dagger]

The word can imply a movement focused on issues that are of concern to women only.

How so? The oppression of women does not occur in isolation.

The struggles of women are the struggles of humanity - of the working class itself- our principal is 'an injury to one is an injury to all', we cannot know freedom without the liberation of the whole class. This "coming together of individuals for the wellbeing of all, and of all for the wellbeing of each [Solidarity]," results in "the freedom of each not being limited by, but complemented -- indeed finding the necessary raison d'etre in -- the freedom of others." [Malatesta quoted in Anarchy, p. 29]

[Lynx]

How so? The oppression of women does not occur in isolation.

The struggles of women are the struggles of humanity - of the working class itself- our principal is 'an injury to one is an injury to all', we cannot know freedom without the liberation of the whole class. This "coming together of individuals for the wellbeing of all, and of all for the wellbeing of each [Solidarity]," results in "the freedom of each not being limited by, but complemented -- indeed finding the necessary raison d'etre in -- the freedom of others." [Malatesta quoted in Anarchy, p. 29]
It requires a response such as the one you've just given, to avoid a cursory analysis of the word and its meaning. Some men dismiss feminism because they believe it doesn't address their concerns, doesn't require their participation, or is intended to exclude them. It's similar in terms of rash judgment to a Capitalist dismissing the Communist movement.

[brigadista]

see my avatar - an extremely notable and admirable left wing feminist:)

[hammer and sickle]

I have come to learn that "we" as a collective use the term "feminism" to mean believing that men/women/other should be EQUAL. "feminism" actually means most basically that women are better. "we" as a collective need to stop saying/typing "feminism" and start with "gender equality" or "sexual equality". any other suggestions for new name for "feminism" taken here. also questions, comments, or concerns; post them and then PM me questions/concerns.
I completly agree! When I see quotes like "It is woman's destiny to rule men. - Camille Paglia" "Morality and its victim, the mother – what a terrible picture! Is there indeed anything more terrible, more criminal, than our glorified sacred function of motherhood? - Emma Goldman"

"The fact that we are all trained to be mothers from infancy on means that we are all trained to devote our lives to men, whether they are our sons or not; that we are all trained to force other women to exemplify the lack of qualities which characterizes the cultural construct of femininity. - Andrea dworkin" I get knots in my stomach this isnt equality! This is why I do not support Feminism!

[Black Dagger]

What are you talking about?

Camille Paglia speaks for all 'feminists' huh? Nah.

Emma Goldman, what exactly is 'wrong' with that quote? She's criticising a patriarchal construction of motherhood, where did she say 'women are better than men'?

Ditto for the Andrea Dworkin quote; how is talking about the oppression of women the same as saying 'women are better [than men]'? :blink:

Troll, i reckon ay.

[Invariance]

I completly agree! When I see quotes like "It is woman's destiny to rule men. - Camille Paglia" "Morality and its victim, the mother – what a terrible picture! Is there indeed anything more terrible, more criminal, than our glorified sacred function of motherhood? - Emma Goldman"

"The fact that we are all trained to be mothers from infancy on means that we are all trained to devote our lives to men, whether they are our sons or not; that we are all trained to force other women to exemplify the lack of qualities which characterizes the cultural construct of femininity. - Andrea dworkin" I get knots in my stomach this isnt equality! This is why I do not support Feminism! Wow, the fallacies and distortions in this post beg belief. Paglia, if anything, is ‘pro-men’ – she is a supporter of the ‘men’s movement’ and laments about husbands being made subservient to women and generally argues against feminists being ‘anti-men’ (a view which you have attributed to her.) Paglia is certainly a dissident in the feminist movement - which doesn't make her wrong, it just makes it wrong for you to cite her views as representative of all feminists. You’re comparing Paglia and Dworkin and Goldman when their views are quite opposed (Paglia being supportive of pornography, Dworkin not so, Paglia seeing prostitution as a form of sexual liberation and empowerment, Goldman seeing it one relating to exploitation and capitalism which is anything but ‘liberating’). You’ve lumped up together a variety of feminisms with often contradictory views, ‘supported’ by quotes which you have totally misinterpreted yet nevertheless unified into one great big feminist straw man. Well done.

[Agrippa]

Yeah, she was in that group Up Against The Wall Motherfuckers. I never could find out why she actually did it though. I don't think she necessariliy thought women were superior to men though.

In her defense Andy Warhol was a complete and total asshole who made a fortune selling over-priced, mass-produced "art" to the bourgeoisie and appropriating and stealing everything he could from any member of the New York artists' scene with any actual talent, while compensating them as little as possible. (Eg: the film-maker Jack Smith) Even Bob Dylan (who is also guilty of failing to give the less well-known artists he borrowed from their dues) despised the man.

Solanas was one of these artists who was screwed-over and that was more likely her motivation in shooting him than her vitriolic misandry. Keep in mind that the Motherfuckers and other anarchist groups in New York at the time had a major axe to grind with the "avant garde" art establishment, and they also threatened acts of violence against the MoMA.

Also, there is a possibility that Solanas wrote The SCUM Manifesto as a satire.

[Boudica]

'Feminism' is not a monolithic group.

There are anarcho-feminsits, marxist-feminists, liberal feminists, separatist feminism, black feminism, conservative feminism, lesbian feminism etcetcetc

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well if we are talking about the better term than feminism (see page 1 of this topic) then my vote goes to Women's Liberation.

Wow, I can't believe what some folks on this topic have said. If anything the position of women has gone backwards for the majority of women. For the bourgies, sexism has declined to a real degree, but in general we've lost ground regarding abortion rights, workplace rights, daycare, sexual attacks, and sexism.

We need a new Women's Lib movement!