Seed Bombing

[Havet]

SEED BOMBING ARTICLE (http://digg.com/d1rSP7)


This new idea is called Seed Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_bombing), which involves a bomber aircraft and charges full of the Seed Capsules. Essentially the project involves artificial dispersal of seeds over arid areas where natural vegetation has lapsed due to man-made follies like deforestation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation) leading to desertification. Each capsule contains artificial soil and seeds, and are air-dropped over the selected regions.
By being inside a biodegradable plastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodegradable_plastic), the artificial soil will provide the necessary conditions of moisture to the seed until it grows out to be a strong enough plant to sustain itself. As the plant matures, the plastic will be naturally degraded , leaving behind a new generation of plant in a former arid area.http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7195/265408rrzpeu0wddxv4vski.jpg

thoughts?

[Sean]

Seed bombing is actually squeezing seeds in little bits of clay then throwing those pellets in urban areas. Given that there are no references in that article I'm assuming that this guy has just taken the name seed bomb literally and sketched this. Sounds pretty, but the reality is that you don't want to teach people in Africa that if you run towards those tiny packages that were dropped out of a plane you should come and investigate or maybe lift it up, open it if you are hungry. Furthermore biodegrable plastics aren't very environmentally friendly themselves.

[Revy]

the image is quite disturbing....I don't think making them the exact shape of bombs was necessary for the artist.

I'm a bit skeptical, but if it works, then it should be tried.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Sounds pretty, but the reality is that you don't want to teach people in Africa that if you run towards those tiny packages that were dropped out of a plane you should come and investigate or maybe lift it up, open it if you are hungry.

Come on, give the people of Africa some credit. I'm pretty sure it's hard to confuse a clear plastic container with a plant growing in it for a cluster bomb.


Furthermore biodegrable plastics aren't very environmentally friendly themselves.As far as I know biodegradable plastic works by breaking down into microscopic bits if exposed to water or ultraviolet light. While not a perfect solution it sure beats having local wildlife getting choked or strangled by our rubbish.


the image is quite disturbing....I don't think making them the exact shape of bombs was necessary for the artist.

Bombs are bomb-shaped for a very good reason - the shape allows them to hit their targets more accurately. Accuracy will be just as important in this peaceful application as it is in martial applications.

---

I definately think that we should be more pro-active in finding solutions to environmental problems such as desertification, and thus I support the testing of techniques such as this, as opposed to the purely reactive/passive policies proposed by mainstream environmentalists.

Science, engineering and technology will provide the surest way of sorting out the various messes we've managed to get ourselves into.

[Sean]

Come on, give the people of Africa some credit. I'm pretty sure it's hard to confuse a clear plastic container with a plant growing in it for a cluster bomb.
First off, its not necessarily aimed at Africa, I'm just using Africa as an example of somewhere that has both arid and wartorn regions. But no, I won't give people driven mad with starvation that already have to deal with minefields credit to not run towards clusterbombs in the hope that they may be seeds. This makes about as much sense as burying chocolate landmines!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

First off, its not necessarily aimed at Africa, I'm just using Africa as an example of somewhere that has both arid and wartorn regions. But no, I won't give people driven mad with starvation that already have to deal with minefields credit to not run towards clusterbombs in the hope that they may be seeds. This makes about as much sense as burying chocolate landmines!

*sigh*

http://www.justact.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/image13.jpg

One type of cluster bomblet. Does that look like something that's designed to germinate seeds in to you? Even if people were desperate enough to try to open up one of these, hopefully word will get out that fiddling with these things are a bad fucking idea once the first limb gets blown off. Hopefully it won't come to that.

http://mcc.org/images/clusterbombs/main.jpg http://diwww.epfl.ch/w3lami/detec/images/bomblet.jpg

Two more types of cluster bomblet. These ones aren't even made out of plastic, for goodness' sake. If you haven't seen plastic or metal in your entire life, I severely doubt you're living in an arid area.

Of course, there is also the fact that none of the above bomblets look anything like the proposed Seed Bombs. If people are stupid and/or desperate enough to attempt to open something that looks nothing like a Seed Bomb, then they will quickly learn as I mentioned just before.

I also like to think that most people have the good sense not to pick up stuff that's been dropped out of a plane in a warzone. Especially stuff the function of which is not entirely clear - unlike the Seed Bombs, which includes a clear plastic bit in which you can see the plant growing, and perhaps the seeds as well.

Perhaps, if the potential problem bothers you so much, it would be a good idea to get bomb manufacturers to put a skull & crossbones on their bomblets, or (easier maybe) print a smiley face on the side of the Seed Bombs.

[Holden Caulfield]

If people are stupid and/or desperate enough to attempt to open something that looks nothing like a Seed Bomb, then they will quickly learn

If they kill of the needy and stupid maybe it will be for the best eh :rolleyes:.
You will learn by means of explosion!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If they kill of the needy and stupid maybe it will be for the best eh :rolleyes:.
You will learn by means of explosion!

Needy people are not the braindead lemmings you seem to think they are, so this "killing off" of which you speak will not happen.

[JimmyJazz]

People (children) die from picking up cluster bomblets every day, in places where Israel has been dropping them for so long that everyone should be 'used to it' by now. Not to mention farmers accidentally hit them while tilling the ground.

[Sean]

...Swedish-based research found 90% of air carriers it identified involved in arms-trafficking were also used by aid groups and peacekeepers. Firms 'fly Africa aid and arms' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8046491.stm)

You have no food. Nor do the thousand odd other people in your village/camp. You see a plane flying overhead. Do you wait until the bombs land and try to find something that everyone else hasnt been able to carry or do you take a 50/50 chance and run under the path of it and hope its food? Do you trust that the bastards that spent years burying explosives under the ground to hide them from other soldiers or who are persecuting you are suddenly trustworthy enough not to try and disguise their weapons as something else that might actually encourage people to be killed by them?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

People (children) die from picking up cluster bomblets every day, in places where Israel has been dropping them for so long that everyone should be 'used to it' by now. Not to mention farmers accidentally hit them while tilling the ground.

Clearly then, the answer is to not drop Seed Bombs in such areas. Not every arid area has been a warzone or is likely to become one in the forseeable future.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Firms 'fly Africa aid and arms' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8046491.stm)

You have no food. Nor do the thousand odd other people in your village/camp. You see a plane flying overhead. Do you wait until the bombs land and try to find something that everyone else hasnt been able to carry or do you take a 50/50 chance and run under the path of it and hope its food? Do you trust that the bastards that spent years burying explosives under the ground to hide them from other soldiers or who are persecuting you are suddenly trustworthy enough not to try and disguise their weapons as something else that might actually encourage people to be killed by them?

In that case, then we shouldn't bother with Seed Bombs in such areas. I'm also surprised that aid is air-dropped - here's me thinking it was delivered by truck or something like that.

Africa's a fucking mess. I have no idea how it's going to be sorted out.

[Sean]

lXIz1xTfOSk
Aid is delivered sometimes by dropping. However my point is that if edible things such as seeds and even the bloody compost arebeing dropped people will flock to the area. I'm only using the actual aid drops as an example of crowd behaviour in such cases. People ARE lemmings and often get crushed to death or even kill eachother in panic to get aid.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I can't watch videos because I can't update my Flash.

Also, the thought occurs that traditional anti-desertification measures would also be useless in such areas, as people would rip up the plants for food and chop down any trees planted for firewood, so I guess there's not much that can be done environmentally speaking in such areas.

[Sean]

oh its just a camera shot underneath an aid drop.

[Eva]

This project is a rip-off of an idea that was on Ways to Save the Planet, a show on The Discovery Channel. I saw this sometime last year. A team of scientist created these high tech, plastic canisters which they planned to drop from helicopters on an island near New Orleans to fix soil erosion caused by hurricane Katrina. They found that the plastic was too expensive. After trying a variety of methods, they settled for just covering the contents with a net made out of wax. Everything was made by volunteers. The process was pretty time consuming and it required a certain degree of skill. In the end, the canisters managed to penetrate the soil, but the success rate wasn't very high and it was difficult for the helicopter to deal with wind currents, weather changes, and to assume the right position. They also had the deal with the fact that they had to pay the guy piloting the helicopter and for the gas. Some of the canisters just broke before they were ever released. They concluded that although they could possible tweak the process, it was still easier, cheaper, more efficient, and more constructive, to just have a team of volunteers plant the seeds over a course of a couple of days.

I think that the idea of seed bombing is a lazy solution. It's important for people to learn the value of labor and civil responsibility by going out there in the fields.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Reasoning isn't as innately complex as we'd like to believe. I'm not sure Africans wouldn't avoid these seed bombs and/or confuse them with real bombs. Africans have a better comparison algorithm than dogs, in theory, but much of our knowledge base comes from the ability to pass information across generations in an efficient way. When I have something in my hand, my dog thinks it's a treat. I could throw him just about anything. If it smells, feels, tastes, bad, etc, he figures it out. There isn't anything particularly special to distinguish these bombs, to my knowledge. Even if there is, my dog will still do stupid things because he can't distinguish between his senses in the right way.

I believe it was condoms on bananas that made Africans think bananas provided safe sex protection when used with a condom. Education is much more important than we think when it comes to distinguishing harms.

I'm sure they could investigate this and/or solve it by distinguishing the seed bomb. I'd be supportive as long as they've got an acceptable way to avoid harm. Something falling will still kill someone.

Lazy solution? Lazy is the point. The value of labor and civil responsibility? Do we have to work 6 days and rest on the sabbath? You don't have to work in the fields. Experience does add something to our knowledge base, but it isn't necessary. I don't need to be burnt to death to presume it's going to be painful.

We have a huge obligation to specifically helping Africa. They could've self-developed, and they still have. The problem is someone who is down and out sometimes needs help, and it's a tough line to draw.

African needs sustainable food, shelter, etc, before it can talk about development. Society isn't going to develop into anything practical unless there are the resources. No one would choose a guaranteed choice to starve collectively over the chance of living individually.

[Sean]

Please tell me this is supposed to be sarcastic Dooga. I can't think of anything you could say more offensive than comparing the average intelligence of the inhabitants of third world African countries to your dog...

[Blackscare]

People (children) die from picking up cluster bomblets every day, in places where Israel has been dropping them for so long that everyone should be 'used to it' by now. Not to mention farmers accidentally hit them while tilling the ground.


Yes, but then the reason they're picking them up is childlike curiosity (something that will prompt kids in a warzone to fiddle with cluster bombs regardless of the presence of these "seed" bombs).

So I don't see the relevance to this situation. What you're describing just sounds like a sad fact of this type of war, but it doesn't suggest that people will be more or less inclined to screw with explosives because of this idea.

[Eva]

- Seed bombing has been around since the 1970s as a form of activism. The original purpose was to reclaim land from perceived neglect or misuse and assign a new purpose to it. Guerrilla gardening is related to land reform and preservation.

- The entire premise of seed bombs, is for them to be something cheap that anyone could make. The aim was to get everybody to do it, collectively. It was grassroots movement. The prototype above was designed by Hwang Jin wook, a South Korean designer for Electrolux.

- By lazy solution, I meant that having a private corporation do the job for us the process is stripped from the whole participation and learning elements. I am all for technology. If we owned the means of productions and we could find a way to make this work, then sweet. It would be amazing on a large scale. However, I do feel like its important for people to be taught civil responsibility and respect for the environment, and for them to also act within their respective communities.

-Given the current state of things, I feel like this program is very similar to every other yuppie green energy campaign. The root of the problem is being is being ignored, and no learning materials are being distributed. We are just being promised that the product -which will cost us a pile of money because it's not being sustainable in itself- will save the world.

- About the design, seed bombs originally looked like this:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5862/3250181133d9da861fd8.jpg

The design for aerial seed bombs is essentially the same, except they are covered in wax. Some extra material hangs off the top, like a ribbon, for it to land properly.

[Blackscare]

Eva, education and community involvement through the creation/spread of the kinds of seed bombs you're talking about is fine, in places like the Five Burroughs.

Dropping seeds over places like the undeveloped/desolate/starvation-ridden parts of Africa isn't a community awareness/beautification project for first world slums, it's a utilitarian measure to prevent desertification and perhaps get some food growing. It simply isn't practical to pursue the tactics you're advocating in such a radically different situation than the one the original seed bombs started in.

[Eva]

Eva, education and community involvement through the creation/spread of the kinds of seed bombs you're talking about is fine, in places like the Five Burroughs.

Dropping seeds over places like the undeveloped/desolate/starvation-ridden parts of Africa isn't a community awareness/beautification project for first world slums, it's a utilitarian measure to prevent desertification and perhaps get some food growing. It simply isn't practical to pursue the tactics you're advocating in such a radically different situation than the one the original seed bombs started in.

I never addressed the program as a beautification project. I think that if executed properly it would have a lot of potential in terms of the impact it could have in agriculture and soil repair.

It is precisely because we would be dealing with undeveloped/desolate/starvation-ridden parts of Africa that education is important. I believe that we should provide developing nations with information on how to develop sustainable agricultural methods so that they may continue to practice independently and sustain these programs after volunteers depart. It's wiser to invest time and effort in a long-term solution and share the knowledge we have rather than have people in need have to rely on occasional interventions.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Please tell me this is supposed to be sarcastic Dooga. I can't think of anything you could say more offensive than comparing the average intelligence of the inhabitants of third world African countries to your dog...

I wasn't specific enough. My apologies. I was comparing human thought processes, in general, to those of other animals. I was suggesting we shouldn't presume we are significantly different mechanistically, in a greater sense, but only effectively. If intellect is a shovel, ours is more effective, but the rational processes underlying the technique of shoveling are fairly if not entirely consistent.

There might be some evidence to toss this idea out. I was simply suggesting much of our so called "innate knowledge" is socialized. The mind can fundamentally be understood with appeals to induction and a higher or more sophisticated "induction analyzer" of some sort. I'm suggesting we should be careful about assuming what humans can innately distinguish between without evidence. If a simple test can determine how individuals will react, it's worth performing.

How much does something have to be different, upon us never having saw it, for us to consider it dangerous. If I saw a black bear as dangerous, I suspect a white bear would scare me. If I saw a black bear as friendly, I suspect a white bear would seem friendly. How much similarity is enough? A lot of our knowledge consists of learning facts, some of which are hidden, and expressing them through knowledge.

I'm not convinced my Western bias isn't the cause of my belief that Africans, or any race raised in those conditions, would distinguish between these bombs and others. Especially when outright death is a consequence, we tend to evaluate risks as much less justified. I suspect the culture would learn quickly. I just don't want to be overly optimistic.

[swampfox]

Are we thinking like..a cluster bomb but seeds? I don't see how it will work without the seeds being burned apart.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Are we thinking like..a cluster bomb but seeds? I don't see how it will work without the seeds being burned apart.

Compressed air, or some other quick gas producing reaction. that would blow it apart.

[Killfacer]

I fail to see why it couldn't be tried. Just don't trial it in war zones.

[Salyut]

Why not make the casing out of cardboard? You could even apply some kind of organic resin if you want more strength.

...and why not just dispense pellets directly?

[Rusty Shackleford]

over all though, it seems kind of like a waste of fuel and of logistics and a general overcomplication to bomb deserts from 10-15km. when you could just get a few C-130s and outfit em with seed spreading material and just spray it from 300 meters.

[natacha]

-Given the current state of things, I feel like this program is very similar to every other yuppie green energy campaign. The root of the problem is being is being ignored, and no learning materials are being distributed. We are just being promised that the product -which will cost us a pile of money because it's not being sustainable in itself- will save the world.

Exxxxactly, I don't know how they'd fund this, probably through donations, and those donators would feel a whole lot better for their luxury if they think that a few quid will plant some life saving trees in a developing country! I make real seedbombs like the ones above, they work but they're a bit of effort to make, good for urban areas that have space to support wildlife and need some help.

[natacha]

but then again, if the seeds are native to the land, it is better than nothing, though the money could be placed elsewhere.

[Yazman]

Sean, what the fuck are you talking about? Why would people run to seed bombs "and eat them" ?

The whole project is nothing to do with feeding people or providing people with food.. nowhere does it say anything about telling people to run to the capsules and eat the contents.

Its about combating desertification..

In fact reading over your initial post again and again I can't even begin to figure out how you read that article and came to the conclusion that the bomblets dropped food.


Each capsule contains artificial soil and seeds, and are air-dropped over the selected regions.

What are they going to eat? dirt?


I wasn't specific enough. My apologies. I was comparing human thought processes, in general, to those of other animals. I was suggesting we shouldn't presume we are significantly different mechanistically, in a greater sense, but only effectively. If intellect is a shovel, ours is more effective, but the rational processes underlying the technique of shoveling are fairly if not entirely consistent.

Animals do not have "thought processes that resemble ours". I wish you would quit this bullshit and stop anthropomorphising animals.