Should Turkey be able to join the EU?

[Poppytry]

I think eventually Turkey will have full EU membership. At latest by 2030.

I think it's a good thing for Turkey as the goals set by the EU which Turkey must achieve have drastically accelerated Turkey towards a more liberal and tolerant society. Big changes in attitudes and policy towards the Kurds are an example. Turkey is a rapidly growing economy (Its economy will match Italy by 2050) so it would be beneficial for the EU member states and Turkey economically in the long run. This is a very important factor as the EU would not want to be left behind by the US and China.

Geographically... well the latvian/russian border comes down to cover about a quarter of Turkey, although I accept it is a lot further down south which is where the issue is I suppose. When Ukraine join the EU Turkey and Ukrains eastern borders will nearly be in line with each other.

Any thoughts?

Further reading: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3631590/Why-are-we-so-afraid-of-Turkey.html

[AvanteRedGarde]

{Puking in my lap}

I always hate in when questions are asked and statments made from the viewpoint of the oppressor.

[Poppytry]

{Puking in my lap}

I always hate in when questions are asked and statments made from the viewpoint of the oppressor.

meaning?... are you on about the further reading article.

[Revy]

Yes, it should....perhaps a better question is "Should Turkey join the EU?" I'm not sure if anyone here would advocate that Turkey not be allowed to join.

[Kamerat]

EU is a capitalist bureaucratic organisation and it would be best if Turkey did not join.
Geographically only the part of Turkey which is not Minor Asia/Anatolia, is a part of Europe. The border between Asia and Europe go from Berents Sea through Ural Mountains down to the Caspian Sea west over Caucasus Mountians and further west in the middle of the Black Sea and through the Bosporus Strait and Aegean Ocean.

[Revy]

Geographically only the part of Turkey which is not Minor Asia/Anatolia, is a part of Europe. The border between Asia and Europe go from Berents Sea through Ural Mountains down to the Caspian Sea west over Caucasus Mountians and further west in the middle of the Black Sea and through the Bosporus Strait and Aegean Ocean.

lol, this is just wrong.
Ireland and the UK are also part of European Union, yet they do not connect to the actual land. so....I don't see how Turkey could somehow NOT be part of Europe. The whole idea of Europe as a continent is arbitrary, anyway, as there is nothing dividing it from Asia.

[Kamerat]

I agree thats wrong to disallow Turkey to join EU based on the fictional border between Asia and Europe, but i did not base my opinon of why Turkey should not join the EU on what is consideret Europe geographicaly. Just pointing out some better geographicaly arguments then this
Geographically... well the latvian/russian border comes down to cover about a quarter of Turkey, although I accept it is a lot further down south which is where the issue is I suppose. When Ukraine join the EU Turkey and Ukrains eastern borders will nearly be in line with each other.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

EU is a capitalist bureaucratic organisation and it would be best if Turkey did not join.
Really? So you don't think that Turkey should benefit from the money that the EU hands out like candy to new and worse-off members?

One of the things that really sticks in the craw of Euroskeptics is the idea that "their" money is spent on people outside of their own country.

Horrors! :rolleyes:


Geographically only the part of Turkey which is not Minor Asia/Anatolia, is a part of Europe. The border between Asia and Europe go from Berents Sea through Ural Mountains down to the Caspian Sea west over Caucasus Mountians and further west in the middle of the Black Sea and through the Bosporus Strait and Aegean Ocean.French Guiana, a department of France, counts as part of the EU. It's in South America.

Discussion over, I think.

[Holden Caulfield]

Really? So you don't think that Turkey should benefit from the money that the EU hands out like candy to new and worse-off members?

Why do they do this NoXion? Because capitalists are nice, or because they want to 'buy off' the political elite of that nation to make the nation mor profitable to them?

[ev]

I believe this is a good thing as it will increase multi-polarity.

[fabilius]

The EU is as someone mentioned a bureaucratic capitalist organization.

Eco-Marxist has a point when he claims any definition of Europe is arbitrary.

I for one don´t object to EU expanding although I´m not really in favor of it. Making a revolution against a one world capitalist government would probably be easier than making it against a world split into several nationstates.

[Revy]

I think it's beside the point that the EU is capitalist.
Turkey is also capitalist.

Regional unions exist all over the world. When countries are kept out, it's usually for political reasons, which is the case with Cuba and the Organization of American States, although the OAS seems to be much more limited in comparison and is mostly under US influence.

I believe that a world federation would be a truly progressive step, even if the world economy was still capitalist. Workers have no country - well the dissolution of national divisions would sure help facilitate that internationalism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Why do they do this NoXion? Because capitalists are nice, or because they want to 'buy off' the political elite of that nation to make the nation mor profitable to them?

As far as the political elite of Turkey is concerned, turning down EU money seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[Patchd]

I think eventually Turkey will have full EU membership. At latest by 2030.

I think it's a good thing for Turkey as the goals set by the EU which Turkey must achieve have drastically accelerated Turkey towards a more liberal and tolerant society.

And at the same time bring them into an institution that is willing to make deals with nations murdering thousands, and in some cases, send troops in to do the same in other countries? Not much morality in the EU. What do I think about Turkery joining the EU? I don't think the EU should exist.


I believe that a world federation would be a truly progressive step, even if the world economy was still capitalist. Workers have no country - well the dissolution of national divisions would sure help facilitate that internationalism.

Yes, but as a revolutionary we should not make those calls. We should be offering our alternative always, our alternative being revolution of course, if the world is split into larger federations, I would suspect they would still be competing, then that is not necessarily a progressive step. Capitalism thrives on competition.

[Devrim]

And at the same time bring them into an institution that is willing to make deals with nations murdering thousands, and in some cases, send troops in to do the same in other countries? Not much morality in the EU. What do I think about Turkery joining the EU? I don't think the EU should exist.

Palachinov has the right sort of approach here. For revolutionaries, the question 'should Turkey be able to join the EU?' is not one to which we should be answering yes or no.

The question is entirely within the frame work of bourgeois politics. It is a bit like asking who should be the candidate of the US Republican party at the next presidential elections.

It is not the job of revolutionaries to suggest ways to manage the state.

That, however, doesn't mean that we shouldn't be informed about and analyse the way that the ruling class is manoeuvring.


I think it's a good thing for Turkey as the goals set by the EU which Turkey must achieve have drastically accelerated Turkey towards a more liberal and tolerant society.

It depends what you mean by liberal and tolerant. My wife for example is a Kurd, something that she has never been abused for in Turkey. She has been abused, for being Middle Eastern, in more than one European country. Is this the sort of tolerance that you are advocating. Are we talking about the liberalism and tolerance that we know from Solingen?

I want to be clear here. I know exactly what sort of a country Turkey is. It is one that has been fighting an internal war against kurdish nationalists for the last twenty-five years and has frequently used terror tactics in the struggle. I could go on put I think people understand my point. However, I do object to the hypocrisy of the Western imperialists countries talking about how much more 'civilised', or 'liberal and tolerant' they are. Of course we can't imagine Western countries fighting an internal war against nationalists for over thirty years and using terror tactics, can we? A western state would never shoot down its own citizens protesting in the street, would it?


As far as the political elite of Turkey is concerned, turning down EU money seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

The current Islamicist government is pro-EU. The main opposition party is very anti. It is closley linked to the political struggle in Turkey.

Devrim

[F9]

As Devrim correctly said, as leftists the answer no or yes plays no matter for us, its like we accept any of the magical lines on the earth, we dont.
Now on the EU, fuck it, beside the aspect that "european members" can travel to all europe to work freely, EU has offered absolutely nothing to workers, instead since cyprus entered the EU the economics turn to the usual capitalist side, rich got richier and poor poorer, where down here economy was a bit more stable in the past.
EU exists for the capitalists and authorities to have a better control over their "propertys", because they know combined are harder to be defeated that apart.They are just making themselves richier and build their fucking huge miitarys to sattisfy their imperialist "feelings" and their personal goals.
So if someone would ask me if its better for the workers etc that the A or B country join the EU, i would answer him/her fuck no!
Now if a fucker sitting in his office in Ankara decides that he wants his country to join the EU, i couldnt care less..As it seems though Turkey will make it to europe, as lots of EU afraid of her and their military because as they say they have the US for back up.
The bottom line is, if some country should join any organization is an aspect as leftists it dont matter us, in the view point of what is a country?

Fuserg9:star:

[Kamerat]

Really? So you don't think that Turkey should benefit from the money that the EU hands out like candy to new and worse-off members?

One of the things that really sticks in the craw of Euroskeptics is the idea that "their" money is spent on people outside of their own country.

Horrors! :rolleyes:
The money is not wort it. The imperialsts are useing institution like WTO, the world bank and EU to spread their markeds by tempting with money. If this those not work they use military force, NATO. As a revolutionary leftist im agains these types of institutions.

It is not because i think Turkey will get my money, i dont live in the EU.


French Guiana, a department of France, counts as part of the EU. It's in South America.

Discussion over, I think.Yupp

[reddevil]

a united Europe is great in theory. in practice however it's just an institution for spreading neoliberalism. the eu should be abolshed in its present form.

[Wanted Man]

I also don't think that this is worth breaking one's head over by using all sorts of legalistic ploys, or the usual human rights hypocrisy. It sounds like the usual talk of the nationalist parties, who oppose Turkish entry because they fear "Islamisation" or because they're suddenly worried about "human rights" (which our troops in Afghanistan are doing a great job at, of course).

[Herman]

Well, it can be summarized by this simple phrase:

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

[Q]

Several others already gave their opinion, I'll just expand on that a bit.


I think eventually Turkey will have full EU membership. At latest by 2030.
1. Why is Turkey's admission to the EU, a neoliberal project by the European multinationals, of any concern to socialists and leftists?
2. Where is 2030 coming from?
3. Do you see the EU as anything progressive? If so, how?


I think it's a good thing for Turkey as the goals set by the EU which Turkey must achieve have drastically accelerated Turkey towards a more liberal and tolerant society. Big changes in attitudes and policy towards the Kurds are an example.
Like privatising state companies, creating a more "competative" market, cutting workers' wages and rights? Yes, very progressive.


Turkey is a rapidly growing economy (Its economy will match Italy by 2050)
Based on what (rosy) predictions?


so it would be beneficial for the EU member states and Turkey economically in the long run. This is a very important factor as the EU would not want to be left behind by the US and China.
For the bosses these are undoubtedly very important macro considerations. How this is at all important for workers within a capitalist framework is beyond me.


Geographically... well the latvian/russian border comes down to cover about a quarter of Turkey, although I accept it is a lot further down south which is where the issue is I suppose. When Ukraine join the EU Turkey and Ukrains eastern borders will nearly be in line with each other.
States are but arbritary lines on a map, workers have no interest in them.

Do you think European unification is at all possible within capitalism? I think the eurozone, and with it the fate of the EU, can very well collapse due to this crisis because of the fall of the mediteranean economies and protectionist measures by for example Germany.

[eyedrop]

It is not because i think Turkey will get my money, i dont live in the EU.
Technically that would be wrong as the EU have recieved 293 million euros each of the last 5 years from Norway (http://www.hegnar.no/okonomi/politikk/article371961.ece) (which I assume your from, since you're a member of Rødt), even though we voted no on the national referendum. So Turkey could in principle "take your money".

Sorry to be nitpicking.

[scarletghoul]

I dont really care lol

[Bitter Ashes]

Well, the reason it's taken so long for Turkey to get to this point is that until recently Turkey was failing to keep to the EU codes on human rights issues. In the last few years the legislation required has been passed and although still a large proportion of the population may still resent these measures, the groundwork's been put in and results are bieng seen. So, should they be allowed in? Well, yes, they're playing by the rules now so they should be welcomed.

Switzerland on the other hand is another matter, although for different reaons :laugh:

[Poppytry]

Several others already gave their opinion, I'll just expand on that a bit.


1. Why is Turkey's admission to the EU, a neoliberal project by the European multinationals, of any concern to socialists and leftists?
2. Where is 2030 coming from?
3. Do you see the EU as anything progressive? If so, how?

(Turkey economy to match Italy's by 2050) Based on what (rosy) predictions?




1. Its politics it concerns all of this. You shouldn't be so ignorant towards news which don't directly involve the workers movement.

2. BBC interview with European Commissioner President Jose Barroso

3. I believe the EU is progressive as policy's such as free right of travel through member states and work permits through the EU zone are all good things and can even be taken further as the EU Parliament has a decent proportion of socialists and communists. If more are elected then this Parliament can pass even more policy which favor the working classes and it will be at a bigger scale as the policy will be binding on all member states.

4. Turkey's economic volume will be equal to that of Italy in 2050 with 5.1 percent average annual growth, according to a report by global consulting and accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC).

[Devrim]

Well, the reason it's taken so long for Turkey to get to this point is that until recently Turkey was failing to keep to the EU codes on human rights issues.:laugh:

I don't think that this is really the point. Both Spain and the UK ran shoot to kill gangs against separatists within their states, but they are in the EU.

There are, in my opinion, different things preventing Turkish entry. One of them is the economy. One of them is the economy. Integrating Turkey would cost a lot more than than the integrating somewhere like the Czech Republic based on levels of economic development, and population. In fact the population of Turkey is roughly similar to the total of the ten countries integrated in 2004. The second is the political balance. Turkey would be the country with the second highest population and therefore the second highest number of seats in the European parliament, and finally of course there is racism and Islamophobia, which are such popular cards to play in Europe today.

I don't expect Turkey to join the EU in the near future.

Devrim

[Q]

1. Its politics it concerns all of this. You shouldn't be so ignorant towards news which don't directly involve the workers movement.
Oh, I'm very aware of capitalist developments. I do wonder why we should particularly have an opinion on whether or not Turkey, or rather its ruling class, should join a neoliberal project.


3. I believe the EU is progressive as policy's such as free right of travel through member states and work permits through the EU zone are all good things and can even be taken further as the EU Parliament has a decent proportion of socialists and communists.
Yeah, and the Euro is nice too if you're on vacation I guess. That makes the neoliberal attacks all worthwile I guess.


If more are elected then this Parliament can pass even more policy which favor the working classes and it will be at a bigger scale as the policy will be binding on all member states.
You are of course aware that:
1. The European parliament cannot initiate any proposals?
2. The ruling classes of the individual states will never allow any actual progressive stuff coming out of Brussels?


4. Turkey's economic volume will be equal to that of Italy in 2050 with 5.1 percent average annual growth, according to a report by global consulting and accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC).
Did that include the latest developments (like a grave worldcrisis for example)?

[Wanted Man]

I don't understand the infatuation with the EU. It's just meant to facilitate neo-liberal development in its member nations, in order to be more competitive with America, China, etc. And make no mistake: "Ford Europe" wants to overtake America from the right, while "Fortress Europe" will keep out any undesirable immigration.

But maybe NAFTA is "progressive" too.

[Yazman]

I don't understand the infatuation with the EU. It's just meant to facilitate neo-liberal development in its member nations, in order to be more competitive with America, China, etc. And make no mistake: "Ford Europe" wants to overtake America from the right, while "Fortress Europe" will keep out any undesirable immigration.

But maybe NAFTA is "progressive" too.

LOL @ comparing a continental union to a free trade agreement. That is fucking ridiculously silly.

[Wanted Man]

And what's the essential difference? That the EU has a common currency and a mock parliament? These are just mechanisms to facilitate the creation of an economic bloc, one that can compete with the US. They only take this form because that is apparently a more efficient way in Europe, which has more countries, languages, currencies (before the euro), borders and legislations. Of course it's not the same thing as a free trade agreement by itself, but they do both serve a purpose, and it sure as hell isn't some kind of socialist internationalism.

So yeah. I don't know if you want to defend the EU as "progressive" here, or if you just drove by to "LOL" at something while completely missing the point. But thanks for the entirely useless post, in any case.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think the ambitions of the European Union extend beyond simply free trade - there's been talk of an EU Army and the Eurocorps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps) was established in 1992.

It would not surprise me to see a united Europe in 50-100 years' time, barring any unexpected developments.

[Wanted Man]

I knew I forgot to mention something. This is correct. With some major exceptions, it's hard for individual EU countries to fight an actual imperialist war on the long term, and it's not always easy in cooperation with the US, under the auspices of NATO, either. The possibility of a European army, to compete with the US, China and Russia, is another major part of this project, so it is also meant to facilitate imperialism.

[Revy]

Well, I said a world federation would be progressive. When you split the world into regions it's not that much different from before.

[S.O.I]

either everyone should be able to join the EU, or nobody should be able to join the EU.