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Rjevan
15th May 2009, 22:27
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1520166,00.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-42391-13.html#backToArticle=624286)

Gay Activists Risk violence to Hold Parade
By Ann-Dorit Boy in Moscow
Gays and lesbians in Russia live dangerously, constantly encountering discrimination and often violence. A group of activists are planning to hold a march in Moscow to coincide with the Eurovision Song Contest this weekend despite a city ban on the parade.

They look innocent enough, as if they were merely collecting donations to protect an endangered species. Around a dozen people have gathered in the afternoon on Moscow's Pushkin Square: men and women aged between 30 and 50, well-groomed middle class Russians. But they are here to preach hate against those who are different. "Moscow is not Sodom," reads one banner. "Sign the petition against the freaks' parade," is the message on another.

The campaign is directed against "Moscow Gay Pride," a demonstration by gays and lesbian due to be held on May 16, to coincide with the finals of the Eurovision Song Contest, which is being held in the Russian capital city. The protesters' flyer shows garishly made-up transvestites juxtaposed with an image from the Beslan school hostage crisis. In 2004, Chechen terrorists stormed a school in the Russian republic of North Ossetia and held 1,200 children and adults captive for days. Hundreds died in the bloody drama.
"Homosexuality is the same as terrorism," asserts one of the Pushkin Square activists. He and his colleagues call themselves the Orthodox Front. They tell interested passersby that the gay parade is a provocation against the government and promotes homosexuality. Many people are happy to sign the petition.

Since 2006, Alexeyev has tried every year to obtain a permit for the peaceful gay and lesbian march. Each time, Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov has prohibited the event, which he has described as "satanic." When the activists gathered nonetheless, far-right thugs and Orthodox believers with crucifixes and icons marched against them. Policeman looked calmly on as the skinheads insulted, spat on and beat up the gay activists. In 2006, Volker Beck, a member of the German parliament for the Greens, was attacked by far-right extremists at the parade. When he tried to take part in the march again in 2007, he was taken away by the militia.

Violence and discrimination are part of everyday life for homosexuals in Russia. Gay clubs are regularly attacked by hooligans, while openly gay people are excluded from events or ejected from polling stations. Participants in previous gay parades have been fired from their jobs, without notice and without any explanation, after their employers recognized them on television. At the beginning of October 2008, authorities in St. Petersburg sabotaged a film festival which had been organized by gays and lesbians. When the event was about to begin, militia and firefighters moved in and closed the venues, supposedly because of potential fire hazards.

Theoretically, the Russian constitution prohibits such discrimination. Theoretically, Russia, as a member of the Council of Europe, has to guarantee the freedom of expression and assembly. But the reality is very different. Dubious groups like the Orthodox Front are free to promote hate in public, but gays and lesbians have to hide.

To call attention to these abuses, Alexeyev and his colleagues chose to hold the gay parade this year on May 16, the date on which the whole of Europe will have its eyes on Moscow for the final of the Eurovision Song Contest, which is being held in the Russia capital this year. They had hoped that the authorities would allow the demonstration for the first time -- in vain. "There have never been gay parades in Moscow and there never will be," the city hall announced last week. "I had assumed that our government is a bit smarter," comments Alexeyev bitterly. "Pictures of people who were beaten up on the street are not exactly positive for Russia." The ban doesn't change the plan for the demonstration, however.

But the polls look slightly different. According to a survey last year by the independent public opinion research institute Levada Center, 80 percent of Russians consider homosexuality to be immoral. A Moscow radio station reached a similar conclusion a few days ago: Four out of five callers felt that the city administration had the right to ban a gay demo, announced a presenter cheerfully before playing back calls. "We are an orthodox country," said one woman. "Why don't they go to Amsterdam?" another asked. A third caller said that actually he had nothing against gays, but was it strictly necessarily for them to show their sexuality in public?

The resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church has played its role in shaping the mood, even if representatives of the church distance themselves from violence. "The church is opposed to these people being persecuted or offended," Metropolitan Kyrill of the Russian Orthodox Church told SPIEGEL in a 2008 interview (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,527618,00.html). He then went on to call the gay parade a "blatant display of sodomy" that "degenerates public morality."

However, the previous rallies in Moscow were anything but brash. The modest demonstrations of recent years had nothing in common with ostentatious gay pride parades in other countries. For Moscow's gays and lesbians, the issue is not about holding a colorful street festival or a big spectacle -- it is simply about asserting their civil rights.
"If the gay parade in Russia one day turns into a party," says Alexeyev, "then it will no longer interest me."

Taken from Spiegel Online (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,624286,00.html)

It's sad to see that homosexuals are facing that much rejection, discrimination and violence in Russia and that the Orthodox church is that much hate mongering, as if the fascists and the police weren't enough.
Is it really that hard to let people decide what their sexual preferneces are, as long as they hurt nobody? What is "satanic" or "freakish" about loving a man as a man/a woman as a woman? Just because I am not that way, this doesn't mean that my way is the only one.
I hope that their demonstration draws enough attention to their case to improve their situation at least a little bit and wish them good luck!

Le Libérer
15th May 2009, 22:51
We have the same issues here in my part of the world. Though being gay isnt illegal or looked down upon per sa, the stigma of organizing public events are, severely. Not only by the religious right and local government, but by gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered people themselves. Most of the gay pride events have been hush hush, held on private property or out in the woods somewhere. Theres much fear of retaliation.

The closest out and in your face organizing done here has been done by ACT-UP members, who protested gay and HIV issues through protests and civil disobedience.

Stranger Than Paradise
15th May 2009, 23:00
Wow that Moscow mayor sounds medievil.

ÑóẊîöʼn
15th May 2009, 23:36
The resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church has played its role in shaping the mood, even if representatives of the church distance themselves from violence. "The church is opposed to these people being persecuted or offended," Metropolitan Kyrill of the Russian Orthodox Church told SPIEGEL in a 2008 interview (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,527618,00.html). He then went on to call the gay parade a "blatant display of sodomy" that "degenerates public morality."

A perfect example of doublethink by religious moralists. They say they are opposed to persecution of homosexuals, yet in the same breath condemn them as sodomites.

communard resolution
16th May 2009, 00:07
As far as I'm aware, the issue of homophobia was never resolved in Russia. Homosexuality was frowned upon as 'Western decadence' even in Soviet days.

These gay right advocates are pioneers in their country and meet with a lot of violent resistance. I agree that the Orthodox Church is responsible for a lot of this shit, then again homophobia seems to have been so deeply rooted in Russian society for such a long time, you cannot blame it on one factor exclusively.

JerseyDevil
16th May 2009, 19:06
I read the comments on an article about that, and most of them were anti-gay. It makes me sick that we live in a world where people go about hating people because of their preference but still feel like good people because they have some book to back them up.

samofshs
19th May 2009, 00:51
Posted by David Thorstad (that NAMBLA fucker) to Marxmail.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_gay_rights


Among those detained Saturday were British activist Peter Tatchell and American activist Andy Thayer of Chicago, co-founder of the Gay Liberation Network. Tatchell and most of the others were detained during a hastily organized protest near Moscow State University in southwest Moscow, where about 30 protesters shouted "Homophobia is a disgrace of this country!" and "We are demanding equal rights!"Louis Proyect had this response:

"I don't support the Moscow cops but I am leery of anything that Peter
Tatchell gets involved with. Here's a good analysis of his role:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2005/11/tatchell-and-pink-veiled-islamophobia.html"

Just pointing out more of the facts. I'm wondering, though, what position should one take on ostensibly liberal and bourgeois NGOs in a matter like this? It seems that they're not helping the situation because even to Russians who are not homophobic they make these demonstrations look like manipulations from the West.

As for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rasa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay, thus making it a "choice".

-marx-
19th May 2009, 01:42
as for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rosa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay. thus making it a "choice".
Being gay is as much a "choice" as being murdered is.:rolleyes:

Thunder
19th May 2009, 01:49
as for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rosa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay. thus making it a "choice".
:thumbdown:
As the person above me said, choosing to be gay is the same as choosing to be black.

samofshs
19th May 2009, 01:53
a subconcious choice.

Black Dagger
19th May 2009, 02:38
(Ignoring the other arguments which refute the idea of homosexuality as a 'lifestyle choice' for a second) If you're saying it is subconscious, then how is it really a 'choice'? 'Choices' are usually conscious decisions.

Edit: BlackScare also makes an excellent point below.

Blackscare
19th May 2009, 02:50
as for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rosa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay. thus making it a "choice".


How do you go from taking a deterministic stance ("gays" are influenced to be what they are) to saying it's a choice in a span of two sentences?


If your personality traits are determined by the life experiences you've had, how do they constitute a "choice"?


I think you're arguing something more along the lines of the "nurture" idea (gays are "made" by experiences, not born with genetic predispositions), which at least is more coherent than saying they are somehow created through experience and then choose to be gay.

Glenn Beck
19th May 2009, 05:47
as for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rosa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay. thus making it a "choice".

I have no problem with the idea that sexuality is largely shaped by complex environmental and social influences rather than genes and sympathize with it myself, but this in no way makes it a 'choice'. In any case, this is off topic.

I hope that the outlook for gay rights improves as time goes by. I share khad's skepticism of liberal NGOs to successfully make progressive changes, especially in a place like Russia where liberalism is weak and rejected by most of the population. Radicals need to be bold and ready to advocate even unpopular views as part of a consistent alternate social outlook grown in the nation's own unique cultural conditions. It isn't enough to merely offer a laundry list of measures and stances, it is necessary to reach people emotionally and give them the tools to look at and examine the world in a different way.

Mujer Libre
19th May 2009, 08:15
Also- the tabula rasa theory of development is complete rubbish. One look at theories of gene-environment interaction (in utero and after) will tell you that.

JohnnyC
19th May 2009, 09:31
Unfortunately, in Belgrade, where I live, LGTB population is in almost identical position as Russian activists.

Here is what happened few years ago during the first attempt to have a gay pride in Serbia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlbeeKmAo7U&feature=related
Hopefully, this summer, Belgrade is going to have it's first non-violent pride.

Also, it should be noted that in both Russia and Serbia orthodox church is influential over population and oppose gay rights.

Tjis
19th May 2009, 09:35
as for me, I subscribe to John Locke's school of thought with the tabla rosa. this means that I believe gays are influenced by their surroundings to be gay. thus making it a "choice".
Why is this even relevant? Even if being gay would be a choice (it's not), conscious or not, that's still no reason for discrimination. When someone is in a relationship with someone of another "race", everyone on this board would agree that there's nothing wrong with this, even if they could have chosen to not have that relationship. Why should it be any different with homosexuality?

Communist Theory
20th May 2009, 15:15
Exactly. Homosexual terrorists are at the doorstep of mother Russia. I for one refuse to live under a homosexual fascist dictatorship.
Fuck off troll.

Stranger Than Paradise
20th May 2009, 20:23
Gay people do not choose to be gay and even if they did there is still no reason for them to be discriminated.

reddevil
21st May 2009, 00:24
the nature vs nurture debate in relation to homosexuality is pointless. it doesn't mater why people are gay, what matters is that they shouldn't be shunned because of it and should feel ashamed

heylelshalem
21st May 2009, 01:31
i believe that people are born gay. The major root of prejudice towards gays is odviously the x-tian church and its continuous spread of gay=sin propoganda. I often feel that is why ultra rightwingers tend to get along with christians lol.

Communist Theory
21st May 2009, 02:19
The bible only says that sodomy is a sin yet the church is all against lesbians as well. Damn religion the world would do good to be rid of it.

Rjevan
21st May 2009, 14:09
The major root of prejudice towards gays is odviously the x-tian church and its continuous spread of gay=sin propoganda.
The church heavily fuels homophobia. So being gay is a sin to them for which you will burn in hell, while abusing little children in catholic children's homes, like it was revealed in the report about Irland today, is obviously totally conform with God's will.

heylelshalem
21st May 2009, 14:13
The church heavily fuels homophobia. So being gay is a sin to them for which you will burn in hell, while abusing little children in catholic children's homes, like it was revealed in the report about Irland today, is obviously totally conform with God's will.

thus the irony that organized religion causes just as much evil as it does good.

Reuben
22nd May 2009, 01:12
The whole 'gay is a choice' debate is a diversion from the real issues of freedom and persecution. If evidence came out tomorrow demonstrating that homosexuality was a choice, would it change your stance on the right of people to engage in same sex relationships, and would it alter your opposition to homophobia? In my case absolutely not. The level of importance placed upon agency here is actually a product of our bizarre liberal-capitalist equal opportunities, and its sharp differentiations between legitimate and illegitimate inequalities - the latter being those that relate to factors over which one is deemed to have no agency. For socialists such distinctions are irrelevant.

Tseka
22nd May 2009, 18:38
Fucking religious nuts.