Party for Socialism and Liberation?

[cb9's_unity]

So i've been reading quite a bit about the PSL both on this site and their site. They say their Marxist-Leninist but I usually consider myself somewhat of an orthodox marxist and an extreme anti-sectarian. I want to be working with left communists, and anarachists and libertarian socialists, as well as the various types of marxists. How much of this would I find in the PSL and how accepted do you think I would be?

I found out they have a Boston branch and i live about 30 minutes away from boston now and I'm going to live about 30 minutes away next year when I go to college so i'll be able to get there pretty easily. Does anyone know how active they are in boston and how I would go about joining or making real contact with them.

Sorry about the ridiculous amount of questions and the poor writing syle but i'm looking for real options to get active in working class politics.

[Blackscare]

It seems like what you're looking for is a coalition of libertarian-left organizations, if so I don't think you'll find that in the PSL.

I was looking for the same thing, and I haven't found anything like that in FL. I hope to start something along these lines over the next couple years.

[cb9's_unity]

Well i'm certainly willing and would want to work with marxist-Leninists but ideally i would like a coalition that would unite Anarcho-communists to marxist-leninists.

[Blackscare]

I don't know, I certainly think a coalition of Left-Communists and Anarchists is possible, but it's a stretch to connect with Marxism-Leninism. They have widely diverging views on tactics and revolutionary struggle, whereas the Left-Communists and Anarchists are similar to each other.

[cb9's_unity]

I guess I need to know more about the exact revolutionary tactics of each but are they mutually exclusive? If the leninists want to set up some 'vanguard' will they refuse to work with the larger communist/workers party? Plus a lot of the debate today has to do with how much to use the bourgeois electoral system and it seems like each political ideology is split on that issue.

[Kassad]

Basically, we have an incredible amount of fallacious notions about the Party for Socialism and Liberation that are downright absurd around here. We are not a sectarian group. As one should note, the Party for Socialism and Liberation is on the steering committee for the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition, which is a group that organizes events nationwide against war, racism and oppression. ANSWER, steered by the PSL, still allows groups of varying ideologies at their rallies. Workers World, Revolutionary Communist Party-USA, Industrial Workers of the World, World Can't Wait, Code Pink. All of these groups, and a multitude of others, are granted the right to have a booth and carry signs, banners and whatever they please at ANSWER protests. I've been at well over a half-dozen events with ANSWER presence. I've never seen any group (spare racist and prejudiced ones) censored or banned from the protest. I mean, there were Ron Paul supporters at an event a while back.

Ironically, many accuse Marxists of being sectarian, but you should recall an event recently where a Revolutionary Communist Party table at the Anarchist Bookfair in San Francisco was forced out and had water dumped on their materials merely because of their presence (Source: http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/6858). Who's being sectarian?

I'm glad you have an interest in the Party for Socialism and Liberation. I'm applying for membership now and have consistent discussions with members of the party and I am granted access to an array of materials that make it easy to be active in the party. You can reach the Boston branch at [email protected] ([email protected]). If you don't get a response, get in contact with me and I'll forward you to one of the people I'm talking to.

We are not a sectarian group. We work with and collaborate with an array of parties and groups. No one is turned away at ANSWER rallies who is working towards liberation of the working class. Also, note this. I was in Washington for the March on the Pentagon in late March. We were protesting outside Lockheed Martin and an anarchist group attempted to sever the protest by taking an orange plastic fence and spreading the rally out. Now we have two examples of anarchist belligerence, sectarianism and divisive nature. I implore you to research the PSL and the ANSWER Coalition and you will see firsthand that any claims of sectarian nature are totally baseless.

If you have any questions about the PSL, I'd say I'm one of the best people on the forum to answer them.

[PRC-UTE]

I don't know, I certainly think a coalition of Left-Communists and Anarchists is possible, but it's a stretch to connect with Marxism-Leninism. They have widely diverging views on tactics and revolutionary struggle, whereas the Left-Communists and Anarchists are similar to each other.

nonsense. I've seen anarchists, trots, etc all working together in real life in coalitions, unions and campaigns.

it's really only on revleft or the banal libcom forum where you see people always ranting about Leninists.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

In my experience, the PSL members I have met have not been sectarian at all. Don't let the term "Marxist-Leninist" be a turn off. The PSL is a party that is more concerned with the present struggle than anything else, its not a club for glorifying or debating the boogyman Stalin. Which means that it's about engaging in struggle here in the US and also being vocal anti-imperialists and supporting self-determination for Iraq, Iran, Afgahnistan, Pakistan, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. According to one of their Chicago members, they essentially are, or could be considered, Trotskyists and Maoists, they just don't label themselves that way because it just promotes more sectarianism. Marxism-Leninism is orthodox Marxism.

I don't know how active the Boston branch is but you should check them out if you want help getting involved in working class politics as you say.

[Blackscare]

Fair enough, I seem to have been wrong :D


This is the kind of subject that I'm happy to hear I'm wrong about, so it's all good.

[Kassad]

The Boston branch doesn't even have a phone number, so I'm confident that it's pretty new and blossoming. Of course, I live about seven hours from the nearest branch and I still obtain materials quite well, so don't let blossoming activist presence be a turn-off. It's just more of a reason to get out on the streets and join the struggle.

[Raúl Duke]

I'm an anarchist but as far as ML and/or socialist parties go I find this PSL group quite interested.

Since they mentioned their ANSWER campaign, cb9_unity, they have what you are looking for (it seems). The group is probably for Marxists/Marxist-Leninists yet they have that "coalition" you mentioned that would suit your fancy in working together with others that are perhaps non-Leninists (although they may also be non-left).

[Jack]

Basically, we have an incredible amount of fallacious notions about the Party for Socialism and Liberation that are downright absurd around here. We are not a sectarian group. As one should note, the Party for Socialism and Liberation is on the steering committee for the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition, which is a group that organizes events nationwide against war, racism and oppression. ANSWER, steered by the PSL, still allows groups of varying ideologies at their rallies. Workers World, Revolutionary Communist Party-USA, Industrial Workers of the World, World Can't Wait, Code Pink. All of these groups, and a multitude of others, are granted the right to have a booth and carry signs, banners and whatever they please at ANSWER protests. I've been at well over a half-dozen events with ANSWER presence. I've never seen any group (spare racist and prejudiced ones) censored or banned from the protest. I mean, there were Ron Paul supporters at an event a while back.

Ironically, many accuse Marxists of being sectarian, but you should recall an event recently where a Revolutionary Communist Party table at the Anarchist Bookfair in San Francisco was forced out and had water dumped on their materials merely because of their presence (Source: http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/6858). Who's being sectarian?

I'm glad you have an interest in the Party for Socialism and Liberation. I'm applying for membership now and have consistent discussions with members of the party and I am granted access to an array of materials that make it easy to be active in the party. You can reach the Boston branch at [email protected] ([email protected]). If you don't get a response, get in contact with me and I'll forward you to one of the people I'm talking to.

We are not a sectarian group. We work with and collaborate with an array of parties and groups. No one is turned away at ANSWER rallies who is working towards liberation of the working class. Also, note this. I was in Washington for the March on the Pentagon in late March. We were protesting outside Lockheed Martin and an anarchist group attempted to sever the protest by taking an orange plastic fence and spreading the rally out. Now we have two examples of anarchist belligerence, sectarianism and divisive nature. I implore you to research the PSL and the ANSWER Coalition and you will see firsthand that any claims of sectarian nature are totally baseless.

If you have any questions about the PSL, I'd say I'm one of the best people on the forum to answer them.

Interesting, because I've been to about half a dozen protests where ANSWER would come, hold up their signs, and make it appear it was an ANSWER protest when really it wasn't. I reccomend OP reads this: http://infoshop.org/page/WWP-FAQ

"Ironically, many accuse Marxists of being sectarian, but you should recall an event recently where a Revolutionary Communist Party table at the Anarchist Bookfair in San Francisco was forced out and had water dumped on their materials merely because of their presence (Source: http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/6858). Who's being sectarian?"

That's because it was an ANARCHIST bookfair, not a Left bookfair. The RCP came and set up a table without permission of the organizers and tried to peddle their shit to young anarchists. If AK Press came to a Marxist-Leninist bookfair without permission then feel free to throw water on them, but we haven't done that.

[cb9's_unity]

Thanks all of you for clearing up the whole sectarian thing. Basically I want a group that is more focused on combating capitalism than combating different socialist groups. Even though Marxism-Leninism is clearly not orthodox marxism we largely disagree on historic issues and are pretty compatible on first world revolution.

PSL is one of the only organizations i've found that is relatively non-sectarian, revolutionary, and seems to have some pretty interesting analysis on current events.

Edit: can anyone answer Jacks's little link there? Is the PSL really nothing more than an authoritarian stalinist party and is speaking out against the war warrant that much critism?

[Kassad]

Interesting, because I've been to about half a dozen protests where ANSWER would come, hold up their signs, and make it appear it was an ANSWER protest when really it wasn't. I reccomend OP reads this: http://infoshop.org/page/WWP-FAQ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://infoshop.org/page/WWP-FAQ)

"Ironically, many accuse Marxists of being sectarian, but you should recall an event recently where a Revolutionary Communist Party table at the Anarchist Bookfair in San Francisco was forced out and had water dumped on their materials merely because of their presence (Source: http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/6858 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/6858)). Who's being sectarian?"

That's because it was an ANARCHIST bookfair, not a Left bookfair. The RCP came and set up a table without permission of the organizers and tried to peddle their shit to young anarchists. If AK Press came to a Marxist-Leninist bookfair without permission then feel free to throw water on them, but we haven't done that.

Right. Because ANSWER organizers really sit there and go "I've got it!" and pull that kind of stunt. Maybe they were spreading the word about the Coalition and advocating their political line? Are you going to act like anarchists don't come into ANSWER protests? Detective Double Standard; private for hire.

Sorry. We aren't sectarian enough to have exclusive and elitist bookfairs where we refuse people the right to speak their mind. If we ever decide to become that decadent, I'll let you know.

[Jack]

Right. Because ANSWER organizers really sit there and go "I've got it!" and pull that kind of stunt. Maybe they were spreading the word about the Coalition and advocating their political line? Are you going to act like anarchists don't come into ANSWER protests? Detective Double Standard; private for hire.

Sorry. We aren't sectarian enough to have exclusive and elitist bookfairs where we refuse people the right to speak their mind. If we ever decide to become that decadent, I'll let you know.

Maybe, but at least anarchists aren't setting up liberal front groups because most people are too intelligent to go to a protest organized by Authoritarian Opportunists Who Cozy Up To Genocidal Dictators....For Peace.

Do we ban Marxist Leninists from attending? No of course we don't, but we don't let you peddle your bullshit in the same way we don't let BANA, Democrats, and the Green Party. That doesn't mean you can't attend, but do you see me going to my local Communist Party office (CPUSA is the only CP near me) and handing out anarchist material to people who come in?

Funny you speak of free speech when your buddy Stalin rejected it.

[manic expression]

Maybe, but at least anarchists aren't setting up liberal front groups because most people are too intelligent to go to a protest organized by Authoritarian Opportunists Who Cozy Up To Genocidal Dictators....For Peace.

I think you're confusing ANSWER with UFPJ. ANSWER isn't a "liberal front group" at all, it consistently promotes a revolutionary outlook on the struggles facing workers around the world. If you review ANSWER's actions and rhetoric, you'll find that both are revolutionary.


Do we ban Marxist Leninists from attending? No of course we don't, but we don't let you peddle your bullshit in the same way we don't let BANA, Democrats, and the Green Party. That doesn't mean you can't attend, but do you see me going to my local Communist Party office (CPUSA is the only CP near me) and handing out anarchist material to people who come in?

That sure is nice of you, letting all those annoying revolutionaries attend as long as they're seen and not heard.

Once again, who's sectarian here?


Funny you speak of free speech when your buddy Stalin rejected it.

Trying to derail the argument so soon?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1405315&postcount=1

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Maybe, but at least anarchists aren't setting up liberal front groups because most people are too intelligent to go to a protest organized by Authoritarian Opportunists Who Cozy Up To Genocidal Dictators....For Peace.

What exactly are you referring to here? Saddam Hussein, Milosevic? (That's what was mentioned in your article.) I suppose not "cozying up to genocidal dictators" means supporting US-backed regime change, right? Look, being against imperialist aggression doesn't mean styling oneself after "genocidal dictators."

[Red Rebel]

The PSL is a good party, the only reason I don't consider myself a full member is because they do not have a branch in Philadelphia, although I get their newspaper Liberation delievered. My first piece of advice is to get active with those already organized around you. I work with Socialist Action in Philly not because I more ideologically connected to SA than PSL but because their active in my area. Half the sectarian shit online doesn't matter in real life.

From meeting many PSL members I've not seen them demonstrate any sectarian prejudices towards me. Like I said before the PSL is a sweet party, you should be happy that there is a branch near you.



The PSL is a party that is more concerned with the present struggle than anything else, its not a club for glorifying or debating the boogyman Stalin.


QFT

[Kassad]

Maybe, but at least anarchists aren't setting up liberal front groups because most people are too intelligent to go to a protest organized by Authoritarian Opportunists Who Cozy Up To Genocidal Dictators....For Peace.

Do we ban Marxist Leninists from attending? No of course we don't, but we don't let you peddle your bullshit in the same way we don't let BANA, Democrats, and the Green Party. That doesn't mean you can't attend, but do you see me going to my local Communist Party office (CPUSA is the only CP near me) and handing out anarchist material to people who come in?

Funny you speak of free speech when your buddy Stalin rejected it.

But here comes the real intellectual discussion! When you've totally lost all credibility; when all logic and sources go out the door, resort to petty name calling! Call 1800-Kassad-4-U and pick up your free liar kit today.

The ANSWER Coalition isn't a liberal front group. It's an anti-imperialist group that opposes all of the United States' colonial and imperial interventions. It is an anti-capitalist group that sponsors anti-capitalist films, meetings and forums organized by the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Sounds quite liberal to me. ANSWER has never endorsed a capitalist candidate and the only 'liberal' thing that you could possibly discern from our protests is our allowing of people like Cindy Sheehan to talk, but Cindy Sheehan is more than left politics. She is a testament to the grieving mothers across the country who have lost their children to the war machine. Of course, you could care less about this.

Basically, what we see here is a total contradiction. ANSWER would never forbid any groups, so long as they aren't racist, prejudiced or oppressive, from having a booth or demonstrating at one of our protests. Anarchists, on the other hand, are much more sectarian and divisive; demanding that all other ideologies leave their premises. Anarchists are living testaments to the double standard that is the fallacious Anarchist ideology; freedom for all, unless you disagree with us! Then you have to leave our 'exclusive protest.' Next times, have bouncers at the doors. It'll save you some trouble from intellectuals interrupting your little tea party that's only for the big kids.

Followed by more derailing of the thread and more ad hominem arguments. Looks like my end of the sandbox is a little rough for people like you who choose to mislead people and promote fallacious arguments that totally contradict your own actions and your own ideology. It's funny how Anarchists pledge allegience to their anti-sectarianism, yet they're the ones with exclusive 'Anarchists only!' bookfairs. Petty-bourgeois and sectarians of the world, unite!

[Lamanov]

Well i'm certainly willing and would want to work with marxist-Leninists but ideally i would like a coalition that would unite Anarcho-communists to marxist-leninists.

Many young people start with the illusion that "we" can "unite". We can't.

You can work with all kinds of leftists on all kinds of "projects", but you can't "unite" everyone.

Sooner you realize that and choose which "line" will be yours you'll have more time to walk it.

[Revy]

The Socialist Party USA has a local in Boston. Maybe you can check that out.

And BlackScare, we do have a branch here in Florida. Locals in South Florida and Tampa. I'm still trying to get one started here in Jacksonville.

PSL is the best Leninist party out there, though....I mean, if you're looking for a Leninist party, I'd always answer PSL. Because some of the Trotskyist parties, like the US sections of the IMT and CWI, have endorsed third party capitalists like Nader and McKinney instead of socialist ones. And the SWP has been a cult for a while now. CPUSA loves Democrats.

[Communist]

I wish I could find out why the PSL split from the WWP, but it appears no reason has ever been given publicly. Odd...

[Kassad]

I wish I could find out why the PSL split from the WWP, but it appears no reason has ever been given publicly. Odd...

No, it's not. We aren't a sectarian group and we still have incredible respect for Workers World, despite our sharp disagreements with leadership and unity practices in Workers World. In the interest of preventing massive ruptures in the movement, we have chosen to keep the issue to ourselves and merely recognize that at the present time, the Party for Socialism and Liberation is more materially and ideologically efficient, revolutionary and prepared than Workers World is at raising working class awareness.

[Jack]

But here comes the real intellectual discussion! When you've totally lost all credibility; when all logic and sources go out the door, resort to petty name calling! Call 1800-Kassad-4-U and pick up your free liar kit today.

The ANSWER Coalition isn't a liberal front group. It's an anti-imperialist group that opposes all of the United States' colonial and imperial interventions. It is an anti-capitalist group that sponsors anti-capitalist films, meetings and forums organized by the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Sounds quite liberal to me. ANSWER has never endorsed a capitalist candidate and the only 'liberal' thing that you could possibly discern from our protests is our allowing of people like Cindy Sheehan to talk, but Cindy Sheehan is more than left politics. She is a testament to the grieving mothers across the country who have lost their children to the war machine. Of course, you could care less about this.

Basically, what we see here is a total contradiction. ANSWER would never forbid any groups, so long as they aren't racist, prejudiced or oppressive, from having a booth or demonstrating at one of our protests. Anarchists, on the other hand, are much more sectarian and divisive; demanding that all other ideologies leave their premises. Anarchists are living testaments to the double standard that is the fallacious Anarchist ideology; freedom for all, unless you disagree with us! Then you have to leave our 'exclusive protest.' Next times, have bouncers at the doors. It'll save you some trouble from intellectuals interrupting your little tea party that's only for the big kids.

Followed by more derailing of the thread and more ad hominem arguments. Looks like my end of the sandbox is a little rough for people like you who choose to mislead people and promote fallacious arguments that totally contradict your own actions and your own ideology. It's funny how Anarchists pledge allegience to their anti-sectarianism, yet they're the ones with exclusive 'Anarchists only!' bookfairs. Petty-bourgeois and sectarians of the world, unite!

If you insult anarchists, anarchists will insult you. We didn't even come in calling you "sectarian" before you started attacking anarchists. Speaking of insults, you just refered to anarchists as "petty-bourgeois" with no backing but to be.... sectarian!

I don't "pledge allegance to anti-sectarianism" and neither do many anarchists. I'm a sectarian bastard I guess if I don't work with people who would force a state on me, and whos ideology has a reputation for undermining and killing anarchists!

All power to the state, comrade, in the name of anti-sectarianism!

[manic expression]

Well, at least you didn't mention Stalin. Listen, a poster first implied the PSL was sectarian, which isn't true, and so this was addressed. After this was answered, you felt compelled to again call the PSL (via ANSWER) sectarian and defend the sectarian actions of a group of anarchists, two statements that were then subsequently addressed. Now, you're accusing the other side of starting it all. Spare me the victim complex and stop trying to derail the discussion.

The point is that the PSL works with a variety of different groups for the express purpose of opposing imperialism and promoting revolutionary socialism. You, on the other hand, see nothing wrong with destroying the materials of socialists you don't agree with at a book fair because you want to satisfy some grudge. I think the contrast is clear enough, but just for purposes of full disclosure, here's Jack's most recent post:


They backstabbed us in Spain.

They backstabbed us in Ukraine.

They will work with us until they find a way to undermine us, which is why proud sectarians like me don't work with them.

I think this speaks for itself.

[Jack]

Well, at least you didn't mention Stalin. Listen, a poster first implied the PSL was sectarian, which isn't true, and so this was addressed. After this was answered, you felt compelled to again call the PSL (via ANSWER) sectarian and defend the sectarian actions of a group of anarchists, two statements that were then subsequently addressed. Now, you're accusing the other side of starting it all. Spare me the victim complex and stop trying to derail the discussion.

The point is that the PSL works with a variety of different groups for the express purpose of opposing imperialism and promoting revolutionary socialism. You, on the other hand, see nothing wrong with destroying the materials of socialists you don't agree with at a book fair because you want to satisfy some grudge. I think the contrast is clear enough, but just for purposes of full disclosure, here's Jack's most recent post:



I think this speaks for itself.

I didn't call the PSL sectarian, the accusations of sectarianism started before I got here.

Maybe I just don't feel comfortable working with people who would kill me if they ever got in power, "comrade".

[ls]

Oddly enough you would be best off in the ICC imo, the description of 'orthodox marxist' tends to fit that the best (note that left-communists are often described as being not the least but the most sectarian element of the far-left).

I reckon you should thoroughly read this (http://en.internationalism.org/the-communist-left), they have various criticisms and appraisals of Lenin and Trotsky (some of the most debated topics in the left).

[manic expression]

I didn't call the PSL sectarian, the accusations of sectarianism started before I got here.

Maybe I just don't feel comfortable working with people who would kill me if they ever got in power, "comrade".

Interesting, because I've been to about half a dozen protests where ANSWER would come, hold up their signs, and make it appear it was an ANSWER protest when really it wasn't.

Sounded like an accusation of sectarianism, or at least dishonesty, which just might be worse. At any rate, the important thing here is that you've already dropped most of your accusations against the PSL because they're unfounded.

Again, drop the victim complex. Somehow I find it hard to believe that tolerating the presence of socialists you don't agree with is so traumatizing. What, do you have flashbacks to the Spanish Civil War when a socialist sets up an information table within ten paces of you? Please.

[Devrim]

Oddly enough you would be best off in the ICC imo, the description of 'orthodox marxist' tends to fit that the best (note that left-communists are often described as being not the least but the most sectarian element of the far-left).

Libsoc, why do you think that we are sectarians?

Devrim

[Kassad]

If you insult anarchists, anarchists will insult you. We didn't even come in calling you "sectarian" before you started attacking anarchists. Speaking of insults, you just refered to anarchists as "petty-bourgeois" with no backing but to be.... sectarian!

I don't "pledge allegance to anti-sectarianism" and neither do many anarchists. I'm a sectarian bastard I guess if I don't work with people who would force a state on me, and whos ideology has a reputation for undermining and killing anarchists!

All power to the state, comrade, in the name of anti-sectarianism!

The discussion on sectarianism was found in the original post and I was expressing how unfounded it was to assert that the Party for Socialism and Liberation is a sectarian group, when in truth, Anarchists are the sectarian and divisive ones. Sorry, but in Ohio, Anarchists are petty-bourgeois. There are a few active groups here notorious for wearing black bandanas and painting the circle-A across town. From every one of their meetings I've attended, I rarely see anyone over 16, and when I do, I can't remember the last one that was really involved in the class struggle. They have a lot of pot lucks. Fight the state with pigs in a blanket!

Anyway, here's more irrelevant and fallacious bile. Anarchists are notorious for subscribing to bourgeois lines in times of revolutionary struggle; viewing revolution as a utopian fantasy that eliminates all bourgeois resistance and tyranny. You protest while Marxist-Leninists organize workers states. You hold sectarian bookfairs, while we organize class struggle. There is literally no justification for how Anarchists treated the Revolutionary Communist Party. Not a single goddamn shred of rationalization. It was sectarian and divisive. Dismount your high horse and join the class struggle please and cease this redundant bile of derailing topics and promoting double-standards.

[ls]

Libsoc, why do you think that we are sectarians?

Devrim

Devrim, you misunderstand me.


(note that left-communists are often described as being not the least but the most sectarian element of the far-left)

If I myself thought your lot were sectarian, I wouldn't have recommended them to the OP

[Devrim]

Devrim, you misunderstand me.
If I myself thought your lot were sectarian, I wouldn't have recommended them to the OP

My mistake, sorry and thanks for recommending us.

Devrim

[Jack]

The discussion on sectarianism was found in the original post and I was expressing how unfounded it was to assert that the Party for Socialism and Liberation is a sectarian group, when in truth, Anarchists are the sectarian and divisive ones. Sorry, but in Ohio, Anarchists are petty-bourgeois. There are a few active groups here notorious for wearing black bandanas and painting the circle-A across town. From every one of their meetings I've attended, I rarely see anyone over 16, and when I do, I can't remember the last one that was really involved in the class struggle. They have a lot of pot lucks. Fight the state with pigs in a blanket!

Anyway, here's more irrelevant and fallacious bile. Anarchists are notorious for subscribing to bourgeois lines in times of revolutionary struggle; viewing revolution as a utopian fantasy that eliminates all bourgeois resistance and tyranny. You protest while Marxist-Leninists organize workers states. You hold sectarian bookfairs, while we organize class struggle. There is literally no justification for how Anarchists treated the Revolutionary Communist Party. Not a single goddamn shred of rationalization. It was sectarian and divisive. Dismount your high horse and join the class struggle please and cease this redundant bile of derailing topics and promoting double-standards.

Organizing workers states? You mean like in Nepal, banning strikes? Or in Columbia, selling drugs and kidnapping workers you claim to fight for? How about in Peru, where you've massacred peasants, was that you organizing a workers state again? How about the PFLP hijacking planes full of innocent people, was that organizing a "workers state"? How about the wonderful North Korea? What about the USSR mass producing nukes, that would kill innocent workers?

Is running Gloria La Riva for president really "revolutionary", seems like alot of reformism to me. Where are you "organizing class struggle" while us bourgeois sectarians are out protesting, as you claim? Call your politics pro-worker if you must, but it's easy to see you're just a bunch of tankies who could give 2 shits about workers.

So should we have let Bay Area National Anarchists, The KKK, Democrats, all the various communist parties, Libertarians etc have a table (without permission) in the name of anti-sectarianism?

All power to the state!

[manic expression]

Organizing workers states? You mean like in Nepal, banning strikes? Or in Columbia, selling drugs and kidnapping workers you claim to fight for? How about in Peru, where you've massacred peasants, was that you organizing a workers state again? How about the PFLP hijacking planes full of innocent people, was that organizing a "workers state"? How about the wonderful North Korea? What about the USSR mass producing nukes, that would kill innocent workers?

Too many slanderous claims here to address individually, but I'll just ask you to not believe everything your bourgeoisie tells you about revolutionaries. That should do the trick.


Is running Gloria La Riva for president really "revolutionary", seems like alot of reformism to me. Where are you "organizing class struggle" while us bourgeois sectarians are out protesting, as you claim? Call your politics pro-worker if you must, but it's easy to see you're just a bunch of tankies who could give 2 shits about workers.

OK, so you know nothing about this issue. The PSL runs candidates to utilize the heightened political consciousness and discourse of election cycles and to reach the workers through the vehicle of electoral campaigns. That's it. And it is revolutionary if you promote revolutionary socialism, which is what the PSL did. One of my coworkers, for example, ended up voting for La Riva because her platform spoke to his situation. That's an important part in building a stronger movement for revolution.


So should we have let Bay Area National Anarchists, The KKK, Democrats, all the various communist parties, Libertarians etc have a table (without permission) in the name of anti-sectarianism?

I'd love to see you justify those insane comparisons. The RCP may not be your (or my) cup of tea, but comparing them to the KKK is just pathetic and the calling card of a truly deluded hack.

[Jack]

I wasn't comparing the RCP to the KKK, I was just saying that if we opened an Anarchist bookfair up to non anarchists, it would be a double standard to allow Leninists in while not letting the others, then it would just be anarchist in name.

[cb9's_unity]

I wasn't comparing the RCP to the KKK, I was just saying that if we opened an Anarchist bookfair up to non anarchists, it would be a double standard to allow Leninists in while not letting the others, then it would just be anarchist in name.

Today the Leninist platforms stand for democracy, class liberation, and anti racism. The KKK for the most part are against all of those, if you don't see a difference you are completely blind. Also in general i tend to get quite a bit of information from bourgeois sources and tend to think the USSR was anti-democratic and authoritarian from the beginning. Leninists generally disagree and say at one point and time the USSR was democratic and thats what they are supporting. If they are supporting what they view is democratic then i don't see how you can criticize them as harshly as you did. As your an anarchist i would understand an ideological attack on supporting the state, but not going and saying they would kill if they had control when you no that is the opposite of their platform. Also you mentioned all third world revolutions and a first world one should end up completely different under a nation that already has some democratic condition.

In my view Leninists need to join with anarchists in order to gain allies in class struggle. Anarchists need to work with Leninists also to ensure class struggle but also to ensure that there is always a very strong voice for democracy and the eventual obtaining of full stateless communism (yes i know thats repetitive) within the revolutionary working class.

Oh and btw i'm going to check out the other leftist parties but so far PSL seems like the best option so far. They seem active and increasingly relevant so even if they don't match up perfectly with my ideology it seems like a place where i can start my journey on actual left activism.

[RedScare]

Indeed, PSL doesn't line up perfectly with my own ideology, as I'm more of a Trot at heart, but they still seem like an excellent party to work with.

[KurtFF8]

Interesting, because I've been to about half a dozen protests where ANSWER would come, hold up their signs, and make it appear it was an ANSWER protest when really it wasn't. I reccomend OP reads this: http://infoshop.org/page/WWP-FAQ

WWP is not the PSL, there was a split for a reason. The WWP doesn't run ANSWER, the PSL does.


That's because it was an ANARCHIST bookfair, not a Left bookfair. The RCP came and set up a table without permission of the organizers and tried to peddle their shit to young anarchists. If AK Press came to a Marxist-Leninist bookfair without permission then feel free to throw water on them, but we haven't done that.

It would be quite silly for a Marxist book fair to throw out AK Press for any ideological reason, just as it was equally as silly for the Anarchists to throw the RCP out.

Yes, the RCP was trying to promote itself and its line, obviously, but that doesn't give the Anarchists the right to act like that. It was pure sectarianism and is quite detremental to the movement itself, there's no reason for it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I don't know what to make of the RCP and the anarchist response. Had the RCP stuck to mere "Marxism-Leninism-Maoism," then sure, the anarchists expelling them would be less justifiable. However, I suspect that the RCP promoted the usual "Chairman Bob" without much in the way of politics or programmatic theory.

[Devrim]

It would be quite silly for a Marxist book fair to throw out AK Press for any ideological reason, just as it was equally as silly for the Anarchists to throw the RCP out.

Yes, the RCP was trying to promote itself and its line, obviously, but that doesn't give the Anarchists the right to act like that. It was pure sectarianism and is quite detremental to the movement itself, there's no reason for it.

From what I read about this event after asking the RCP to leave, the anarchists did act a little silly.

However, when they organise a bookfair, it is perfectly normal for them to decide which groups should be allowed to set up stalls at it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Devrim

[cb9's_unity]

anarchists are completly useless though, they should fuck off back to their mother's basements.

Statements like this get us nowhere. You and Jack seem to be working together to ensure the stagnation of the socialist movement. Personally i'd take an anarchist who is willing to work with me over a marxist who isn't willing to work with an anarchist any day.

[Devrim]

anarchists are completly useless though, they should fuck off back to their mother's basements.

I think that comments like this often tell you more about the person making them than the people they are aimed at.

Most of the anarchists that I know socially are workers in their 40s or 50s with kids. It is probably because I fit into the same demographic group, and people in a similar position to me are the sort of people who I tend to know socially.

We can infer things about IR social situation from his comments.

Devrim

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

There are a couple misconceptions here that need to be addressed.

For one, Jack, you're right that the RCP was not invited, but when they got there they were told by the event organizers that they could set up a table. They were asked to move to different locations a couple times, which they did. They weren't just intruders there to spite the anarchists and establish a dictatorship of the proletariat on the grassy knoll. Actions like what was done at that book fair only confirm the preconceived notions many people have about anarchism = angry teenagers = break stuff.

And Kassad, certain anarchists did destroy the RCP's literature, but not everybody there did it and not everybody there approved of those who did it. From what I heard, there were only a couple people involved in that debacle. But you're right to call out Jack for supporting it. Personally I don't think they should have been there in the first place, but if people wanted them gone, they should have just told the event organizers that the majority did not want them there and had the organizers ask the RCP to leave. Destroying other people's books, pamphlets and flyers is extremely petty and immature.

But cb9, if you're going to work with any party, I would say PSL is the best. They're probably the least sectarian revolutionary party in the US. Super friendly and non-dogmatic, and even though I disagree with quite a bit of their politics, I've considered working with them where we have common ground.

[KurtFF8]

Yeah, regardless of how silly the RCP is, treating them like that doesn't seem to be justified. Especially if it's followed by some anarchist-dogma after (aka: Maoism is evil and authoritarian! therefore we can treat them this way!).

I'm not saying that all anarchists think this way, but it certainly doesn't help anything to do such a thing. Yes the RCP is quite silly, but come on.

Anyway, yes the PSL seems quite non-sectarian and easy to work with. They've done some good with ANSWER (much better than WWP from what I understand) so to the OP: yes I think the PSL is an organization worth looking into. You could even encourge other non-Marxist leftists to get involved I would imagine.

[Kassad]

Yeah, regardless of how silly the RCP is, treating them like that doesn't seem to be justified. Especially if it's followed by some anarchist-dogma after (aka: Maoism is evil and authoritarian! therefore we can treat them this way!).

I'm not saying that all anarchists think this way, but it certainly doesn't help anything to do such a thing. Yes the RCP is quite silly, but come on.

Anyway, yes the PSL seems quite non-sectarian and easy to work with. They've done some good with ANSWER (much better than WWP from what I understand) so to the OP: yes I think the PSL is an organization worth looking into. You could even encourge other non-Marxist leftists to get involved I would imagine.

To follow up on that, it is my opinion that Workers World attempted to make the ANSWER Coalition separate from their actions. Of course, they were on the steering committee, but Workers World was so concerned with appealing to the broad masses that they veiled their involvement. They didn't want ANSWER to be a communist group. At ANSWER protests, the Party for Socialism and Liberation is the first sponsor. They provide dozens of volunteers. They promote anti-imperialism, not just anti-war. ANSWER is not afraid to display its support for revolutionary socialism, as shown by their sponsorship of PSL events.

Let's look at United for Peace and Justice. Communist Party USA is on their steering committee, yet they are just a center-left (with a lot of right-wing supporters, such as their support for Ron Paul). They refused to participate in an ANSWER protest calling for a free Palestine. United for Peace and Justice is a very sectarian and divisive group. Note how they demanded a split with ANSWER, not the other way around. We cannot afford to promote anti-war coalitions because war is a product of imperialism. Imperialism is one of the prime problems in the world today and it is a result of capitalism. Imperialism causes war in the interest of corporate domination. We need an anti-imperialist coalition to steer the anti-war, anti-racism and anti-capitalist fervor of the people.

Workers World did not actively participate in ANSWER, from what I saw. ANSWER today is much more active and is much more revolutionary thanks to the radical leadership of the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

[Seven Stars]

We can infer things about IR social situation from his comments.

Nah, just my mental situation, had one too many PBRs.

[rocker935]

God, this message board gets soo obnoxious some times. Here is the bottom line. The anarchists shouldn't have been oppressive to the RCP, however silly they might be. BUT, just because those fools went and trashed the RCP, doesn't mean every anarchist would go and do that. But just because Stalin was a fukin prick, doesn't mean every communist is a stalinist. Its a waste of time to be fighting each other, we both want to tear down capitalism.

[JimmyJazz]

So i've been reading quite a bit about the PSL both on this site and their site. They say their Marxist-Leninist but I usually consider myself somewhat of an orthodox marxist and an extreme anti-sectarian. I want to be working with left communists, and anarachists and libertarian socialists, as well as the various types of marxists. How much of this would I find in the PSL and how accepted do you think I would be?

The better question is, what kind of work do you want to be doing? They mostly do anti-war stuff (through the ANSWER coalition), organize around hot button issues like gay rights and police brutality, run candidates in local elections, and talk a lot about Cuba (especially the Cuban Five, who are "imprisoned for trying to stop terrorism", as their slogan goes). If you get active with them, probably most of what you will be doing is going to meetings and then going out to post flyers all over town. They are big on flyering.

I go to their meetings sometimes, and I like the people in my local branch, but that's not the kind of work I want to be doing. For instance, I am starting to get into a little counter-recruitment stuff, which I think is a lot more effective way to end the war (and wars in general) than organizing protests. I also do worker organizing in the IWW and a major national union, which is something very valuable, and you won't get if from the PSL or any other "party" that I am aware of.

If you just want to hang out with other communists and learn stuff, I've found that PSL meetings are decent for this purpose, but not great. Mostly they talk about upcoming events, recently passed events--calender type of stuff. But occasionally there are educational presentations, and of course it is always fun to mingle with other Marxists when a meeting is done. But in general the meetings, like the whole organization, has a very top down and formulaic approach.

[Comrade B]

That's because it was an ANARCHIST bookfair, not a Left bookfair. The RCP came and set up a table without permission of the organizers and tried to peddle their shit to young anarchists. If AK Press came to a Marxist-Leninist bookfair without permission then feel free to throw water on them, but we haven't done that.
Does it matter? I don't think we would kick you guys out... if someone actually agrees with the ideology after reading about it, they are part of it, and not what they thought they were before.

Is the PSL really nothing more than an authoritarian stalinist party and is speaking out against the war warrant that much critism?
PSL is marxist leninist, I think most of the members are trotskyists, deffinately not stalinists, if people want to promote that garbage, they are just as ignorant as the mother fuckers that use the soviet union as an argument against communism as a whole.


If you have any questions about the PSL, I'd say I'm one of the best people on the forum to answer them.
agreed on this, Kassad is probably the best representative of the PSL here


When there is a protest or counter protest, communists and anarchists should work together, but in grouping, our views are too different to be part of one organization.
We can fight side by side, but when it comes to politics, we disagree on a great deal of issues and if we were to run for positions together, we would be too internally conflicted to get anything done.

[Kassad]

The better question is, what kind of work do you want to be doing? They mostly do anti-war stuff (through the ANSWER coalition), organize around hot button issues like gay rights and police brutality, run candidates in local elections, and talk a lot about Cuba (especially the Cuban Five, who are "imprisoned for trying to stop terrorism", as their slogan goes). If you get active with them, probably most of what you will be doing is going to meetings and then going out to post flyers all over town. They are big on flyering.

You're really painting our organization in kind of a negative light. That isn't all we do. The protests and boycott of Bank of America in San Francisco? The PSL was there. The teachers union strike in Los Angeles? The PSL was there. When Oscar Grant was murdered by the police? The PSL was there. With unjust imprisonment of Mumia Abu-Jamal, the Cuban Five, the Panther Eight, Leonard Peltier, the Jena Six and many more. Guess what? The PSL was there. Also, ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) is consistently present at the Berkeley military recruitment office protesting their manipulation of citizens of Berkeley, especially students and minorities, to get them to enlist. The PSL holds conferences, meetings and community events consistently. The PSL ran Carlos Alvarez for mayor of Los Angeles; the only candidate to publicly declare that he was a socialist and in support of a free Palestine. We do anti-war stuff. We do anti-police stuff. Anti-capitalist, anti-racism, pro-immigrant, pro-worker and pro-equality stuff all the time. We are the most active socialist party in the country. If you want to join the struggle for Marxism, socialism and equality, there is no better organization than the Party for Socialism and Liberation.


I go to their meetings sometimes, and I like the people in my local branch, but that's not the kind of work I want to be doing. For instance, I am starting to get into a little counter-recruitment stuff, which I think is a lot more effective way to end the war (and wars in general) than organizing protests. I also do worker organizing in the IWW and a major national union, which is something very valuable, and you won't get if from the PSL or any other "party" that I am aware of.

All members of the Party for Socialism and Liberation must either work with or attempt to organize unions in their workplace. Every single one of them. The PSL is active in pro-worker struggles consistently and they, along with ANSWER, are present at strikes, demonstrations and union protests constantly. You're honestly trying to belittle the organization.


If you just want to hang out with other communists and learn stuff, I've found that PSL meetings are decent for this purpose, but not great. Mostly they talk about upcoming events, recently passed events--calender type of stuff. But occasionally there are educational presentations, and of course it is always fun to mingle with other Marxists when a meeting is done. But in general the meetings, like the whole organization, has a very top down and formulaic approach.

This is, and I'm sorry to have to be vulgar, utter bullshit. There is no party that is as active as the Party for Socialism and Liberation in regard to workers struggles and the multitude of other struggles I listed. The PSL and ANSWER have been behind the organization of just about every major protest across the country against the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan, Puerto Rico and the imperialist nature of their support for colonialism in Palestine, Haiti and many others. Yeah, if you want to fight for reformism, just join a union and go with it. If you just want to pass out papers at a protest, go for it. But if you want to form a militant struggle that leads the fight for Marxism across the country, then you need to consider joining the Party for Socialism and Liberation.


PSL is marxist leninist, I think most of the members are trotskyists, deffinately not stalinists, if people want to promote that garbage, they are just as ignorant as the mother fuckers that use the soviet union as an argument against communism as a whole.

Yes, the PSL is a Marxist-Leninist party, but we believe that Trotskyist groups are totally inefficient and they consistently take anti-worker and often pro-imperialist stances that demonize states like China, Cuba and North Korea. There are Trotskyist members and there are anti-revisionist members. The party program promotes neither specifically. If you can, pick up a copy of the Who We Are and What We Stand For pamphlet, which details the party program. Also, if you visit www.SocialismandLiberation.org (http://www.SocialismandLiberation.org), which is the website for the party's magazine, you can get in-depth theory. We are called 'Stalinist' because we support workers struggles in countries that those who propagate bourgeois propaganda criticize. The contributions of Stalin are recognized by party members, though not uncritically, as all people should be. The same goes for Trotsky.

[gorillafuck]

Yes, the PSL is a Marxist-Leninist party, but we believe that Trotskyist groups are totally inefficient and they consistently take anti-worker and often pro-imperialist stances that demonize states like China, Cuba and North Korea.
I like Cuba and view the Chinese Revolution in a positive light (though I'm not big on Maoism), but supporting North Korea seems wacko to me.

Anywho, I really like this party and I'm probably joining it when I'm 18 and will probably get involved in the Boston chapter since I'm in southern New Hampshire.

[Kassad]

I like Cuba and view the Chinese Revolution in a positive light (though I'm not big on Maoism), but supporting North Korea seems wacko to me.

Anywho, I really like this party and I'm probably joining it when I'm 18 and will probably get involved in the Boston chapter since I'm in southern New Hampshire.

We aren't Maoists either. Trust me. Either way, you're viewing this in the wrong light. The Party for Socialism and Liberation believes that socialist construction began in Korea and would have continued had the United States not intervened. Now, due to America's colonialist occupation of Korea, the country is now divided. The Korean War never ended. There was merely a stoppage of fighting. However, the United States has miltiary drills consistently on the border of North and South Korea to simulate war with the North. Because it faces destruction and was almost totally anihilated by the United States, North Korea is forced to defend its sovereignty with military strength, thus forcing the already crippled Korean economy, due to sanctions and war, to focus on military preparation. This is the prime impediment to socialist construction, not the bourgeois notions of authoritarianism. It is merely another nation attempting socialist construction that is ravaged by American imperialism.

The PSL just made a statement on Korea today, actually. It's a good read.
http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12137&news_iv_ctrl=1261

Also, you don't have to be 18. I'm 17 and I'm already almost a member. You can be as young as you want, really, as long as you are commited to revolutionary socialism, Marxism and class struggle.

[gorillafuck]

We aren't Maoists either. Trust me. Either way, you're viewing this in the wrong light. The Party for Socialism and Liberation believes that socialist construction began in Korea and would have continued had the United States not intervened. Now, due to America's colonialist occupation of Korea, the country is now divided. The Korean War never ended. There was merely a stoppage of fighting. However, the United States has miltiary drills consistently on the border of North and South Korea to simulate war with the North. Because it faces destruction and was almost totally anihilated by the United States, North Korea is forced to defend its sovereignty with military strength, thus forcing the already crippled Korean economy, due to sanctions and war, to focus on military preparation. This is the prime impediment to socialist construction, not the bourgeois notions of authoritarianism. It is merely another nation attempting socialist construction that is ravaged by American imperialism.

Also, you don't have to be 18. I'm 17 and I'm already almost a member. You can be as young as you want, really, as long as you are commited to revolutionary socialism, Marxism and class struggle.
I know you're not Maoists, that's the RCP.

And I am 15 so I don't think applying for membership is a priority at the moment.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That's because it was an ANARCHIST bookfair, not a Left bookfair. The RCP came and set up a table without permission of the organizers and tried to peddle their shit to young anarchists. If AK Press came to a Marxist-Leninist bookfair without permission then feel free to throw water on them, but we haven't done that.

As someone who had a booth inside that bookfair (and who is a Trotskyist) really hate to have to agree with the RCP on this (when I have had much more sectarian BS hurled at me from RCPers than real active political anarchists).

This bookfair has a free section outside in the patio area where people sold their things without paying a booth fee. The RCP table was set up even further outside of this area. Second, to say that only anarchists were allowed there is rediculous (as my presence inside demonstrates). The people in the booth next to me were part of a bike-messenger group selling playing cards with bike messenger pictures. They were raising money for a shared helth benifit program for messengers. Throughout the weekened people repetedly came to their table (bike messengers are real trendy in SF) asking if they were a union or trying to form one - each time one of them said that unions are stupid and they had no desire to do that. If being a political anarchist was a requisite for being at this fair, I would hope that they got kicked out before anyone else. Or maybe the person selling pot or the people selling vegan BS or any of the other 50% of the booths that were totally nonpolitical lifestyleists.

So what I saw go down was hostility between some "anarchists" and the RCP. The RCP does a lot of hostile shit to other groups and so these induviduals that forced them out probably just decided to kick them out because of the RCP's reputaion and past behavior. So I have to side with the RCP in principle although I definately relate to what the induviduals who kicked them out probably felt. Still, not the most political or best way to handle the situation.

[Zurdito]

I didn't call the PSL sectarian, the accusations of sectarianism started before I got here.

Maybe I just don't feel comfortable working with people who would kill me if they ever got in power, "comrade".

I'd kill you tomorrow and I'm not even in power, just for being such a sanctimonious, self-victimizing whiner. (joke FFS, I wouldn't lliterally kill you, before someone gets scandalized)).

Get a grip, you're not any more op-p-p-ressed than the rest just because you decided to palce yourself in a tiny and popularly despised subculture (you're so desperate to seperate yourself from the dumb masses you even had to put "vegan" in your usertitle). :lol:

And don't act like everyone who disagrees with you is personally responsible for all the past crimes of their ideologies and you personally bear the cross of all the injustices the evil state has inflicted on poor little you (but not the rest of us).

In that case I could start shouting about how you didn't accept the government of Catalunya when Luis Companys offered it and left the bourgeois state in power to crush the Spanish working class, how you personally are repsonsible for the actions of drunk alcoholic pogrom-mongering White Army collaborators who rename entire nations after themselves - but I won't because I'm not that sanctimonious, and in fact all I think you are responsible for is being annoying on revleft, and not all for the historical failings of your ideology.

You see one of the good things about not being a sectarian is that I don't divide the owrld into "good" people and the rest, but acknowledge that nefarious movements, like Stalinism and like yours, can win over honest revolutionaries, like msot posters ont his board and probably including yourself. It is fair enough to point out to someone the historical flaws of their movement, but if you are only there to deride them instead of fidning common ground to win them over, it shows that all you are interested in is feeling superior, and not building your own movement. That is why "sectarian" is a criticism - it is synonymous with "useless".

[PRC-UTE]

Get a grip, you're not any more op-p-p-ressed than the rest just because you decided to palce yourself in a tiny and popularly despised subculture (you're so desperate to seperate yourself from the dumb masses you even had to put "vegan" in your usertitle). :lol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqyKsnQD38

[redguard2009]

I like the PSL. Of course, I liked them years ago when I first found them on Facebook before they became the latest "fad".

I like that they have "liberation" in the name. It's somewhat politically and ideologically vague, which I like for some reason. They seem to have a good head on them and they seem to be gaining in strength. If I were an American, I'd probably join them.

[KurtFF8]

Well the vagueness can also be a sign of them being relatively anti-sectarian, which in my experience is the case.

[redguard2009]

Well, yes, that's part of why I like it. Well, most of why I like it. I like that they're ideologically nondescript, have "socialism" in the name.. it's a very all-encompassing sort of name there that's very attractive.